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Career advise
2

Career advise

Career advise

(OP)
Hello everyone:

I am looking for  career advise.  I am a structural engineer with a little over two years experience.  I am interested in working for an architectual/engineering firms.  What kind of skills should I be adding to repetoire to head in this direction.  I have a bachelor degree in civil engineering with classes in Reinforced Concrete and LRFD Steel design.  Should I take classes in Timber and Prestressed Steel design?  How much would a master degree help in this field and what classes should I take to head in this direction.  Is it better to begin with a firm that is big or should I start with a small firm so can have more responsibility.

Any help you can provide is appreciated.

Thank you

SIncerely

Kmat

RE: Career advise

Kmat:

good questions...I will start with what everyone will bust me on....get yout FE and PE license.....then go to work for a small firm since you are right in your thinking that you will get exposed to a lot more in a shorter period of time.  Get your PE after 4 years with the smaller firm, then look for a bigger firm...doing something you like to do.  Then think about the masters after you see its relevance in what you like to do....

Just my thoughts....

BobPE

RE: Career advise

My advice is to work for your P.E. I don't feel that someone is really an engineer without it. Make sure that you will be working with engineers who can provide a reference fo you a few years dowm the road when you are applying for your P.E.

My advice is to work for a company which provides engineering services that are not likely to be moved overseas. (Gov't work, power plants, land developement, etc. ) If the trend continues most large companies will have the bulk of their traditional engineering overseas and you will have insufficient time to reach management by then.

A master's degree depends on what you want to do. For soil engineering, environmental engineering, etc. it is necessary. For some other specialties, it is extraneous.

You may also want to consider a career which uses your skills but is outside main stream engineering such as law or corporate planning. Regular engineering in this country does not currently have a bright future.

Good Luck !!!!

RE: Career advise

We use structural engineers all the time.  I'm in an active seismic zone and a lot of the electrical installations have to be signed off by a registered Structural Engineer.  If we want to mount a transfromer on a rack (say - stack two transformers ) we get a structural engineer to design it. We get a sketch (may be the same one we sent over for a suggested design ) back with a PE stamp on it and were set. Electrical inspectors and building inspectors want the Structrual PE sign off. Large conduit racks and cable tray runs need hangers designed by a structural engineer. You need the PE. In California I think Structurals need the Civil PE and the structural is another 8 hour exam on top of that.  IT's tough but your on the gravy train if can get a California Structrual PE.

RE: Career advise

Bob, I would not slam you on the PE advice here . For structural & civil, it is probably a critical career path step.

As long as you are unemployed while enrolled in school, you should be able to work on a Master's while working toward your PE. Just make sure you complete it within the required period from matriculation.

And, unless you start a program with an ABET accredited school offering alternate deliveries (internet, videotape, etc), you should plan on being stuck in the locale after you start grad school until graduation.

I would not take any graduate classes for a potential degree without first making sure the courses are acceptable in the degree plan.

RE: Career advise

(OP)
Well, I have always saw myself as doing something creative with structural engineering.  Where I work now, it is mostly NJDOT so the look of a bridge is pretty much laid out.  I already have my EIT certification and a master's degree with a PE still looks attractive to me.  I was thinking of taking a class in timber  and masonry design but I do not think that will help me much in my career.  For what I have been hearing and noticing in my office, most engineer do not prize themselves for having a master degree.  Some think it was a waste, because you can learn all that need to know without it.  Some who do not have master's degrees in structural engineering are looking to get in MBA or a masters in Management but this is mostly about stress and money.  Some do not think that what they get paid for does not equat the stress they get for being an engineer.  As they say where I am from, there is no love for engineering in here.  It basically, pays the bills.

I would still like everyone advise about working for a small firm if you have an opinion on it.

Thanks Again

Kmat

RE: Career advise

Kmat, it's perfectly OK to learn something that interests you even though it is outside your field of expertise. Many engineering master's programs allow a few electives. Even if the classes you want to take are not approved electives, if they interest you, what would it hurt to take them? I'm taking a stained glass class right now - it does nothing for my career, but I've enjoyed it & I wanted to learn the process (it's harder than it looks...)

As for small companies. I've worked in small & large. Both have positives & negatives. Small companies are right for some, large companies are better for others. Our experiences with company size won't be the same as yours.

When we're making decisions affecting my career (& I say we, my DH has input on  my career decisions), we sit down & make a list. We discuss the pros & cons. I make the final decision, but only after I've analyzed it with "stakeholder" input.

Make a list of criteria important to you & use that list to make your decision. How will that decision help you meet your goals?

RE: Career advise

Since the slam came from dannym "I don't feel that someone is really an engineer without it." I feel the need to respond. For structural engineers a PE is likely critical but to make a blanket statement like that reflects on the misconceptions of PE critical disciplines such as structural and civil engineering. If you guys dont have a PE, what are you going to do? Not much.

To blatantly apply this to all engineering reflects on your misconception of engineering in general. I have tried to refrain from getting upset but I am tired of everyone saying your not an engineer without a PE. I find myself heading in a direction I do not want to go but I will with the next PE that makes such a derogatory remark about non-PE's. If you went to a college that offered electrical and civil and structural then you will know what I am referring too. Give it a rest!

RE: Career advise

buzzp, don't get angry, we are all talking about important things....you post takes the exact opposite of extremes as Dannym 's post.  In my opinion, neither post helps with the middle ground and forward movment this thread was taking....

BobPE

RE: Career advise

BobPE, How is my post the opposite? I said get a PE because your discipline requires it (almost). This is certainly not opposite of dannym's post. Your reference to forward progress of this thread is not applicable. You must be thinking of other threads.
Me being upset is also from another thread, kinda. The slam that your not an engineer without a PE was made in this thread, hence my comments.
I believe Kmat probably realizes he should get his PE, if I were structural or civil, I would too.

RE: Career advise

buzzp:

all engineering disiplines have the same access to the PE.  I work with many PE electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, architectural engineers, industrial engineers, mining engineers, marine engineers, environmental engineers, structural engineers, civil engineers, sanitary engineers.

I can see you being upset, I get the same way, but you know what, it forces us to communicate, even if its in the little work here at the forums....

RE: Career advise

I never said we did not have the same access to the PE. I said it is more important for other disciplines than for electrical engineers. I too work with all different types in a medium office. I even work with some archeologists, palentologists, etc.
My point is those that believe your not an engineer without a PE have some learning to do about engineering in general. Why would a designer have a PE when all of his work has to go through safety agency approvals? What benefit will I get if my design (resistors, capacitors, IC's, chokes, LCD's, jumpers, plugs, push buttons, and other COMPONENTs) has a PE signature? Absolutely none. The design still has to go to a third party for approval. When you are working for joe public, you are the last line of defense against harmful conditions so you should bear the consequnces of your design. Us design engineers have a last line of defense in safety agency approvals. There is a need for identifying responsible parties when dealing with the public. There is not a need in the design world. We screw up, we redesign the product at the same time our employer starts to question us and we accept the consequences. The kicker is, the messed up product has not been made available to the public.  

RE: Career advise

I ignored dammyn's statement because that horse has already been beaten to death in eng-tips.

The BSEE can be in power engineering or electronics engineering. Power engineers need to be RPEs (IMHO), electronics engineering majors usually end up working under the industry exemption. Then there is Computer Science Engineering and industrial engineering (jack of all trades, master of none, as my IE friends claimed).

I used to get into teasing sessions with a co-worker who was an Industrial (Imaginary) Engineering major. Because she acquired her work experience consecutive with degree & mine was concurrent, when Texas had a drive to register industry exempt engineers a number of years ago she was eligible to to be grandfathered into a PE registration & I was not.

RE: Career advise

buzzp

why do your designs have to go to a third party for approval?  Who is this third party?  I am just talking out loud....but I guess in my world, the engineer is responsible for their designs, not a third party....I think the same would apply in your world, and I think you as an engineer could benefit from you being the third party....If (and I say IF) your employer was required by some law that they can only use PE's, AND most industry engineers had their PE, don't you think you would be in a better position in general as an engineer making engineering decisions?  Don't you think that forcing people that require engineering services to use licensed engineers would benefit all engineers?  These are just thoughts....more about the profession that about the individual....

BobPE

RE: Career advise

The first comment you reasonably objected to was that anyone without a PE is not an enginner (sorry if I have misquoted).  I think it is agreed by all here there is no reason to downplay the competence of someone who doesn't have a PE.

As Bob said I think you have gone too far to the other extreme.  
"What benefit will I get if my design (resistors, capacitors, IC's, chokes, LCD's, jumpers, plugs, push buttons, and other COMPONENTs) has a PE signature? Absolutely none"

It sounds to me like you are saying a PE means nothing. A PE demonstrates a person has met certain requirements for verified experience, education, and tested knowledge.  It's not all-encompassing and no guarantee of a competent person, but it means something IMHO.

RE: Career advise

It's not just my opinion that to call yourself an engineer you need a P.E. The state I live in and many states (and I believe Canada also) require that you have a P.E. in order to represent yourself as an engineer. A company cannot give you a job title with "Engineer" in it unless you have a P.E. Also, a compnay cannot use "Engineering" in its name unless at least one of the principals is a P.E. I agree.

Also, I cannot understand why a person who has chosen engineering as a profession would not go through the rather small effort of getting a P.E. if they can.

Please don't give me a litany about how "it's just a piece of paper" and you refuse to "jump through hoops". If you were graduated by a college or university, you jumped through many hoops to recieve that piece of paper.

I'm sure you're proud of your college degree. And you should be it is an accomplishment. Likewise, A P.E. is an accomplishment and I'm personally proud to have it.

RE: Career advise

I should clarify my previous post was directed to buzz.

To dannym - I just used your comments to create context for my discussion. I didn't mean to criticize you.... there are plenty of others here that will take up that fight.

RE: Career advise

dannym:

I agree with you, I just think that to gain any ground on the issue of the PE, its going to take a lot of convincing on non-PE's to accomplish this.  I have seen all to many PE's take extreme points of view on not involving themselves with industry exempt engineers and letting them die on the vine.  You are right though, there are more excuses not to take the PE than there are legit reasons not to have the PE.  

I am proud of my PE also....I think its's a worthy goal for all engineers to achieve....

BobPE

RE: Career advise

dannym, congratulation you have been assimilated by the NSPE. I get the impression you are much younger than (cough, cough, hack, hack) some of us....so let me give you a bit of our perspective as an industry exempt...

Way back when ...in the times of old...(have to set the stage you know...)...when many of us old farts fine upstanding eng-tips contributors graduated from engineering school, the PE requirements were primarily focused on the structural, civil, power, and other disciplines that affect safety of society.

The testing for PE was slanted HEAVILY toward civil and structural when I graduated. The requirements have changed a lot over the years mostly due to the NSPE wanting to bring in the industry exempts into the PE fold. The NSPE has evolved accordingly. Had the PE process today existed when I was in school, I would have done it back then. Back then, I felt like I needed to go back to school & get another engineering degree before I could sit for the PE, so I never did.

It may be true today for new grads that there is no reason for them to NOT take the EIT & then go onto get the PE. But for these old farts fine upstanding eng-tips contributors who've worked successfully for so long under the industry exemption, it's a different story.

Sooo, open up your mind. A mind is like a parachute. It's about worthless when it's closed. Consider our viewpoint & realize that while it may not happen instantaneously (all engineering grads go for PE status), by attrition, it will come around in the long run.  There's no need to denegrate us simply because we didn't major in an area where the PE was focused back when we were fresh young engineering grads.

RE: Career advise

I am merely pointing out that with the work I used to do (albeit, now a PE would be beneficial) as a design engineer a PE license would not open up any doors in product design. There is no conceivable benefit to me to get a PE if I chose to stay in the design world (I intend to return to that area of work). But for now, I purposefully took up a career to get exposure to the so called consultant side of things to round off my experiences.
As far as third party approval issues. This is where some of you fall short of understanding and what I have been pointing out in several other threads. In product design, there are third party agencies that say if your product is safe or not, I am sure you have heard of them, UL, CSA,(amongst others). This third party approval is definately not mandatory but will certainly limit your market as some companies will not purchase products without an approval of some kind (not including a PE stamp). This shifts SOME of the liability to the safety agency depending on the origin of the problem. The company is still responsible to some degree.
Why would an electrical engineer in the product design world want to understand distribution and transmission lines, short circuit analysis of such systems, and even the NEC? And worst of all, why would he/she want to take a test in an area they have not worked in but only studied in college? Makes no sense. The EE world is way to broad and covers way too many areas to apply a blanket test too.
A PE license for a product design engineer might make some sense, I.E. where should bypass capacitors be placed, what types of caps are used for what purposes, how to handle EMC issues. You see my point? Electrical engineers don't just handle transmission and distribution systems. Now if my argument is still extreme that a product design engineer has absolutely no benefit from obtaining a PE, please present your points from a product design engineers point of view. I do agree that a PE might open up some doors, but if your staying in product design forget about your PE.      
dannym; I guess there are several thousand companies who are breaking the law by having engineers with 'engineer' in their title. This is totally wrong. The real situation is for a COMPANY to have engineer in their company name is illegal if they are not represented by PE's not the title.

I have never said that a PE means squat. I said it means squat in the product design world. I am in no way bashing PE licensees. My comments come about from someone bashing non PE's, yet again.

RE: Career advise

Fair enough buzz. I guess I was just bashing the non-PE's bashing the PE's bashing the non-PE's bashing the.... oh forget it.



One thing I will say is that the electrical PE is by no means limited to electrical distribution. Look at the green PE prep book by Yarbrough... it covers the same areas as the test.   That would include stuff like transistors, op-amps, analog amplifiers, a/d & d/a coversion, instrument loops, control systems, frequency response, wave analysi, economic analysis etc.  I am guessing if you are electrical your job has something to do with the above.

RE: Career advise

I am somewhat guilty of not knowing exactly what is on the PE exam. I only know in the EE product design world a PE license does little for you. I am certain there are some cases where it may. I just do not know of any.

For those that do not know, I would like to get my PE when time allows. I may get the chance with my new employer. I will likely get it to keep my future options open. I never said a PE was a bad thing just that it had little benefits for some EE designing products that a PE might specify.  

RE: Career advise

I see your point.  As far as the personal benefit for people in exempt industries, PE is not much more than something to put on your wall and resume.  

My advice to anyone contemplating the PE is apply for the PE exam at the earliest time you are eligible.  Even if you're not sure about the test you might surprise yourself.  On top of that I think you get two or three attempts with one application fee.... if the first one doesn't work just consider it a practice.

RE: Career advise

To Dannym
You stated:
"The state I live in and many states (and I believe Canada also) require that you have a P.E. in order to represent yourself as an engineer. A company cannot give you a job title with "Engineer" in it unless you have a P.E."

I guess the US Navy is wrong for calling a nonPE, an Engineering Officer.

PE or NO PE - Engineering Degree or English Degree - you are not going to sit in the hot seat unless you have your Engineer Officer Of the Watch Letter.  We call it EOOW letter.

Also, it is unlikely you will ever command a ship without an EOOW letter.  Do you think all of those Navy Ship Captains have engineering degrees much less PE's?

Likewise, all the shipalts and engineeng manuals used on Navy ships were written in blood!  It is the 17, 18 and 19 year old sailor at sea that has to live with the mistakes made not only by the PEs but also by the policy that dictates lowest bidder builds the ship or supplies materials.

So to all the PEs, Non PE Design Engineers and others, put yourself in the shoes of a sailor down in the engineroom smelling diesel fumes, because of a faulty ventilation system, and all of a sudden the ship goes dark and quiet because of a faulty circuit card in the Woodward Electronics Governor Control!

I firmly belief that EITs should have to operate what they are going to design for at least 2,000 hours - Notice I didn't use years.  Ask a pilot how long it takes to log 2,000 hours of flight time?

Ask an EOOW how long it takes to log 2,000 hours in the hot seat! At least 5 deployments that are 9 months long each, with 6 to 9 months between deployments!

So, the next time you slap your PE stamp on a set of wastewater treatment plans, think about how many hours you have operating an actual plant!

Also, when you design a shipboard fuel system and slap your PE stamp on it, don't forget that the Navy is required to take on fuel from third world countries.  Yep, everytime that happened, we went through 50 cases of coelescer filters - Forget it - just bypass the coelescer filter when the delta P alarm goes off - tired of changing out filters -  Oh we can bypass the alarm switch so it doesn't register on the data logger!

Signing Off

  

   

RE: Career advise

Well Electricpete I have had my EIT (FE now?) since I graduated. I am not to concerned with passing the PE exam with a little bit of study. I have always been a good tester.

RE: Career advise

I was pretty sure you'd have an easy time on the PE test. (I believe the PE test is still called the FE.)

Again my advice to anyone is apply as soon as your are eligible. Another reason for that is that the process takes a long time... paperwork including waiting for references, board review and exam timetables.

RE: Career advise

electricpete, the EIT = FE,  its an attempt to eliminate the term engineer from the title of EIT.  I think its all rather stupid, but nontheless, its the law.

buzzp, just take it cold, you may be surprised!!!  IF you dont make it the first time, its a great study prep.



BobPE

RE: Career advise

Well thanks for the advice. I plan to check into as time allows.



RE: Career advise

(OP)
Its funny how the original post which started out asking for career advise has change into a discussion on EIT and what is a real engineer.  Well, I have my EIT, Bachelor degree in CIvil Engineernig and I guess, I am not considered an engineer.  But maybe engineering is more about getting that piece of paper.  Some of the best engineers did not have the degree yet the desire to use talents to build great structures.

Although engineering has been downgraded to getting a piece a paper, I hope we dont forget that being in engineer is more than the paper.  

Sincerely,

Kmat

RE: Career advise

Good point Kmat, star for that.

RE: Career advise

I AM NOT AN ENGINEER, also 49 yrs old but wiser.  I am taking pre-engineering classes for an eventual degree in Mechanical Engineering.  I work as a gas turbine technician and doing very well even though I only have a High School diploma...and no, I'm not on the road all the time.  With old age comes life experiences.  One of the experiences I gained is... there are highly paid Engineering jobs out there.  Having worked with many Engineers, I've noticed a trend in my industry in that those guys who want to know multiple fields of knowledge (Jack of all Trades) are somehow paid less than those who find a niche no one else wants.  Engineers in my industry don't work out of offices, they usually work in coveralls out in the field.  They don't do manual labor but go out to work with us lesser beings, and in that process they end up being called first for any new projects or to solve problems no one else can fix.  It is because everyone knows them, compared to the guy who'd rather work at headquarters building.  One common trait of our Engineers is they hate office work, so they have an admin assistant who mans the office when they are away 60% of the time.  It's a double-edged sword; ya gotta love what ya are doing if you intend to be in a niche job.

RE: Career advise

I'd have to agree with the last comment.  

When there is a big-dollar problem with equipment, management doesn't always trust their local plant staff.  They like to hire an outside expert with 30 years experience in that particular technology/equipment to come in and tell them the same thing.

I have been through 10 or 15 of these from the plant staff side. Last one cost $11,000 for three days. I have to say only one or two gave anything I considered useful (most of them confirmed what we were saying). Two of them set us backwards with dubious recommendations that I disagreed with... guess who management believed.

Sorry for the attitude creeping in. The point is that if you have some claim to being an expert in a field, people will pay you big dollars whether you are worht it or not.

RE: Career advise

That is absoutely correct.  Bosses also have bosses they report to, and if the facility boss is responsible for a multi-multi-million dollar investment, they will shell out big money to make sure things get done right.  Even with all my experiences, it is comforting to management that whatever I am doings is validated by an Engineer.  Guess which Engineer is being called to validate my work... yes.... the Engineer in coveralls who physically walks around and listens to teh worker bee's complaints/suggestions.  Both sides end up learning something new in every visit.  The Engineer asks me what I intend to do, he nods his head or disagree on some points, we arrive at a plan of action, then everyone is happy.  I learn something new from him and vice versa.  My point is this... with word of mouth reputation comes a proportional increase in income; management will give the job to an Engineer they are comfortable with.  Even though in my niche job I am doing well financially, my kids inspired me to get a degree.  I have great respect for all you guys/gals in this forum who took the time in getting that "piece of paper on the wall".  I wish I had your maturity in my younger years.

RE: Career advise

Sometimes, it is not because they don't trust their plant personnel.  Management just wants a second point of view when dealing with million dollar machinery

RE: Career advise

If this thread is any indication of where engineering is going in the next 5 years, I'm worried.  A young engineer asks for career advise and the conversation quickly disintigrates into a back-biting squabble about the merits of being a PE.

What next, tag team cage matches like the WWF?

Grow up!

Simple career advise:  Get the PE.  Then get the masters.

Don't forget, the Apollo moon landings were engineered by a bunch of people with BS degrees and a lot of common sense.  No PE certificates, few masters or Phds.

RE: Career advise

Kmat

To get back to your original question. You want to work for a architectural/engineering firm. Then go and apply to a LOT of them.

Your career is a lot like the Nike slogan, Just Do It!

Make finding a job a full time job in itself. Research the companies find out as much about them as you can and find out who is the decision maker in your area of interest. Go to the office and ask for a few minutes of that person’s time. Be ready to sit and wait for a couple of hours. When you meet the person demonstrate your knowledge of the firm by asking some pertinent questions about a recent project. Ask for a job or an opportunity to demonstrate your skills and ability in some capacity.

Have another firm in mind for tomorrow; repeat as required until you get an offer.

Don’t waste a lot of time taking a lot of courses because someone said that you need this knowledge to work in this area. Just start working in this area and you will quickly find out what areas you need some more training in. You can then take a course of simply go to the local university bookstore, buy the textbook and class notes (sometimes they are available from the internet) and start studying. Formal courses are often a much more time consuming method of acquiring knowledge that self study.  Find a mentor in each area that you can ask questions and get help in some difficult areas. This is a never ending process.

Self-study also has the advantages of not tying you to ant particular schedule that may not suit your needs.

Stop wasting time banging on the keyboard, go out and get the job you want by finding where it is and asking for it.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Career advise

Amen Rick.  You hit it right on the head

RE: Career advise

Rick,

Thanks for your response to the original question. I am also currently looking for other employment options and I would like to know if you have any specific suggestions as to how to "research a company" besides looking at their web page?

RE: Career advise

A lot depends if this is a large firm or a small firm. For a large publicly traded company there should be a wealth of information out there. Smaller firms will be more difficult to find out a lot of information.

You can check them out in the financial press. (Written and on-line)

Do a google search for the firm; they may be mentioned in some other chat rooms etc.

Also do a google news search for any current references to them in the news.

Talk to current and past employees of the firm.  

If it makes a consumer product look them up in the consumer product reports.

Contact the Better Business Bureau.

Contact any industry and professional associations in the area of the firm’s operation.

Talk to the recruiting office at your local university. They will be especially helpful if you are a new graduate but they may have some information on the firm.

Talk to others who are familiar with the firm’s product (salesmen users of the product etc)

Contact the firm’s PR department directly. Take everything that they send you with a grain of salt. Ask about industry trends and new projects.

Contact the firm’s investor relation department directly as well. Get a copy of the annual report. If they recently made a public offering there should be a copy of the prospectus available. Read all the fine print in that no matter how painful. Financial disclosure laws are very strict.

Finally contact the firm’s HR department. Ask about new employee policies, employee development policies. You can say that you are doing some research on the trends and practices in the industry. (Not a lie, just be a little circumspect on why you are doing the research.) You an also say that you are an applicant and ask that you are looking into the firm to be prepared for an interview.

Use your imagination and follow up on any leads that you get from these sources.

Good luck


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

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