Physics First?
Physics First?
(OP)
I posted this in the Civil Engr. forum, and a replier suggested that it migyht be relavent for all fields. Hence, I am reposting it here. Sorry about the duplicative bandwidth.
A physics First conference was held recently at Cornell, discussing the benefits of making Physics a 9th grade class in the US, rather than 11th or 12th. See http://members.aol.com/physicsfirst/ and http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/7.24.03/Physics_First.html for discussion of results from high schools that have tried it.
What do you think the benefits would be to our professions?
I think a lot of students get burned out on science during junior year chemistry, and never take Physics. Yet Physics has a lot more relevance, I think, to everyday life. The average car driver needs to know more about inertia than fuel-air stoichiometry. Could Physics First lead to better drivers?
Closer to home, could it increase/retain interest among high school students in science and engineering as careers? I think it may, simply because it would help show the relevance of the sciences to their lives. Also, since Newtonian Physics can be seen and felt and heard, it could be a better introduction to science than chemistry or geology or perhaps even biology.
Any other thoughts?
A physics First conference was held recently at Cornell, discussing the benefits of making Physics a 9th grade class in the US, rather than 11th or 12th. See http://members.aol.com/physicsfirst/ and http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/7.24.03/Physics_First.html for discussion of results from high schools that have tried it.
What do you think the benefits would be to our professions?
I think a lot of students get burned out on science during junior year chemistry, and never take Physics. Yet Physics has a lot more relevance, I think, to everyday life. The average car driver needs to know more about inertia than fuel-air stoichiometry. Could Physics First lead to better drivers?
Closer to home, could it increase/retain interest among high school students in science and engineering as careers? I think it may, simply because it would help show the relevance of the sciences to their lives. Also, since Newtonian Physics can be seen and felt and heard, it could be a better introduction to science than chemistry or geology or perhaps even biology.
Any other thoughts?





RE: Physics First?
As the saying goes, "Biology is the daughter of chemistry. Chemistry is the son of physics. Physics is the bastard child of mathematics." Most schools put these courses in the order reverse from this, which hamstrings many students' understanding of science in general.
RE: Physics First?
One thing to consider is that physics works best with a strong math background. Algebra - definitely. Geometry - definitly. Pre-calc - nice to have.
In contrast to my memory biology and chem dealt more in terms and concepts, less in math.
The existing sequence saves the most math-intensive course for the time when the student has taken the most math courses.
RE: Physics First?
The physics issue also shines a light on the dismal state of "math literacy" here in the U.S.
RE: Physics First?
To answer the question in your original post, I believe that a solid foundation in the laws of physics will certainly make you a better engineer, because it will impart understanding on a deeper level than engineering itself.
Maui
RE: Physics First?
I think students are more receptive to physics if it's called something else. The word "physics" has a certain intimidation factor.
RE: Physics First?
my daughter on the other hand planned on a nursing career and although not taking physics would hurt her scholarship efforts, I could not in all consciousness recommend that she take it -- it had no bearing on her career choice and I think it would have demopralized her even more than the poor teachers she had in her other classes, which were pretty bad...
I personally think that more effort needs to be on the lower grades including middle school in exposing students to the sciences including physics... not so much in the nitty gritty, but a good foundation on how science is involved in all of the activities around us -- the same includes math -- my wife is an avid quilter, but can't add fractions for figuring total quantity of material needed (was sick an extensive period during that time frame, missed alot of school, and no one spent anytime with her indicating the need to know this in everyday life... and it has affected her self esteem)
RE: Physics First?
Science is validated by physics. Science, in many ways, begats art.
Kids begin to learn art in preschool, but wait until college to learn physics? I wholeheartedly agree with the poster's question: Why start at the top and work our way down?
Give kids physics from the earliest age they can conceptulize theory. Society at large will benefit.
RE: Physics First?
Amazingly, it took me until **grad school** to realize this relationship!! And only then did I pay enough attention to the math to become comfortable in its "language". I think if we approached high school subjects like this, fewer students would get turned off by it, and maybe a lot more would get turned on.
Radical approach, I know!
RE: Physics First?
J.G
RE: Physics First?
RE: Physics First?
Brad
RE: Physics First?
Could someone translate for me please? What ages do the various references to grades in high school correspond to?
Many thanks, HM
No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam
RE: Physics First?
These are the relative ages of the grades, sometimes there will be older and younger students, depending on when they started school.
9th grade (Freshman) - 14 to 15 years old
10th grade (Sophomore) - 15 to 16 years old
11th grade (Junior) - 16 to 17 years old
12th grade (Senior) - 17 to 18 years old
Hope this helps,
J.G
RE: Physics First?
jproj
RE: Physics First?
The civil engineering instructor had a class of 10th grade students doing freebody diagrams for bridge trusses and solving for the loads in each element. Those students whose math skills were lacking were given the required skills by the instructor.
Electrical engineering had us learning basic circuits, resistance, Kirchov's rules, etc. ( I still believe electrons to be evil :) )
Mechanical coursework involved learning drafting skills, basic machine shop practice, some metallurgy and some basic machine design.
I still marvel at the work we tackled. The program died from lack of enrollment. The home school counselors were reluctant to send their best students to a *vocational* school. My own counselor had almost no knowledge of the program and was unaware of my choices until my senior year. Parents beware!!
Math and science were still tedious, but at least I could see the need and application. We were doing things in 10th grade that I wouldn't see again until Statics, Basic Circuits and Materials 101 in college. Are any of these programs available today?