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Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?
2

Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
Consider the case of many industry exempts:

No RPEs in an engineer's current realm of influence.

How can an engineer in an industry exempt job make connections with RPEs who would be willing to become familiar with the engineer's work to vouch for them on an RPE application? Without the engineer being required to leave current job.

How about a little brainstorming?

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/lic_basic.htm

"….Although it is recommended that the engineering experience be obtained while working under the supervision of a licensed professional engineer, this is not a requirement for licensure.."

"References - If not requesting exam waivers, five (5) references are required, of which, three (3) must be currently licensed P.E.'s. If requesting exam waivers, then nine (9) references are required with at least five (5) being currently licensed P.E.'s. The professional engineers can be licensed in any jurisdiction. The P.E. references not licensed in Texas must provide a copy of their current pocket card or other documentation to verify an active license. Board Rule §131.71(b) allows for a reference who did not work with the applicant to review and judge the SER. An applicant might ask any of the references that are familiar with the applicant to review and judge the experience. The reference shall mark the appropriate box on the reference Statement (Character and Review of SER only for Purpose of Reference Statement).
Follow the instructions on the back of the reference statement to request your reference statements. Send a signed copy of your SER to those references that will verify your engineering experience."

I note that the PE who has not worked with you can provide a reference without jeapardizing their integrity. The form asks them clearly the basis of their opinion. They can state the limited context under which they know you and that their opinion of you work is based solely upon review of your own comments in the SER.

If someone submits 5 PE's who they have never worked with and asks for exam waiver... apparently they have met the minimum requirement.  Even though the entire process would be based upon statement from the applicant themselves, statement non-licensed individuals working with the applicant who have no obligation to the board and cannot be punished by the board, and PE's who simply sign that based on review of the paper it looks good.  One only hopes that the board would excercize some judgement beyond meeting those minimum requirements. Otherwise the PE system seems  a worthless excercize IMHO.

Brainstorm:
Family reunion?
Internet?
Church, library, grocery store, McDonalds?
Sorry I couldn't resist that bit of sarcasm. It is directed at the system, not at you.  I think that anyone is wise to take advantage of whatever opportunities are available and explore what are the minimum requirements.... minimum effort necessary to meet the goal of licensure.  I would do the same thing myself.

So the question boils down to what is the minimum required:

1 - If none of the PE's need to have to have any direct knowledge of your work, than find anybody that has a PE and willing to review  your application....maybe family reunion is not out of the question.  Maybe someone on the board would like to volunteer.

2 - If PE board will excercize some judgement and disapprove an application full of people you haven't worked with, then you would need to figure out some way to interact in more work-related environment with PE's.  Perhaps that might involve volunteering to work on a small project with a PE.  Maybe your company has customers or suppliers that you interact with very closely who are PE's and therefore have some direct knowledge of your work.

Sounds like PE board is a good place to start to clarify whether you need option #1 or #2.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Trying to explore the angle a little more of what is expected from the reference: Here is the form the evaluator will have to fill out in for TX PE application:

"Reference Evaluation is: (check one)
__Character Only
__Character & Personal Knowledge of Work Described in SER
__Character & Review of SER only for Purpose of Reference Statement
1. How long have you known the applicant? ________
2. Are you related to the applicant? No Yes If so, how?
3. Was/is your relationship with the applicant Personal? Business? Please explain.
4. The Texas Engineering Practice Act states that a person seeking to obtain a license to practice professional engineering shall provide evidence of good professional character and reputation which, in the judgement of the Board, is sufficient to insure that the individual can consistently act in the best interest of clients and the public in any practice setting. Such evidence shall establish that the person is able to distinguish right from wrong, is able to think and act rationally, is able to keep promises and honor obligations, and is accountable for his/her own behavior. How would you describe the applicant's character and reputation?
5. Do you know of anything that would negatively affect the applicant's ability to practice as an independent professional engineer? If yes, explain
NOTE: The following questions 6-8 are designed to be answered by professional engineers, technical supervisors, or persons who have reviewed the engineering experience described in the applicant's SER. If this section does not apply to you please answer "Not Applicable".
6. What have you observed that convinces you that the applicant (has/has not) adequately applied engineering education, training, and experience in the practice of engineering?
7. Do you believe that the applicant's experience was sufficiently complex and diverse, and of an increasing standard of quality and responsibility, to provide sufficient professional growth for the applicant to be recommended for a license?
8. If you have observed the applicant in recent engagements, do you believe the applicant has reached a level of competency to be placed in responsible charge of engineering work in his/her discipline? "

First checkmark identifies very clearly the context of the evaluation.
Question 2 explores whether the reviewer is a relative.... interesting given your comment about family reunion. There is certainly nothing in the regs that says 1 or 5 reviewers can't be relatives.  But the fact that the are obliged to disclose that relationship will certainly cast doubt about impartiality and probably for that reason relatives are your last resort.  (Again I am under a wishful assumption that the board will excercize some judgement).

My final recommendation in absence of any clarification from the board:  Focus your effort on finding some PE with some connection (however remote) to your current job.  As I said, suppliers, customers, regulators, competitors.    Maybe someone from a training class or industry/trade organization.   At a minimum if you haven't worked with them, at least someone in the same industry who is familiar with the type of stuff that you do.  That way their review has some extra credibility.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

I agree with electripetes idea of looking for PE's that do your subbed out work.  Look for jobs that you send out of the company and get involved with them.  I have vouched for project managers from industry that were runnung the jobs that I was working on.  

I doubt you will find them at McDonalds though...lol....Althought I don't like the professional organizations for PE's, their meetings are full of PE's.  If you attend these meeting you may find SANE PE's that are willing to work with you, you will also find ones that wont.  It takes a little work, but I feel it is a very worthwhile process.  You may not think so now, you may never think so even after you get it.  But limiting yourself to being non licensed for no other reason than it is hard to get really isnt an excuse....

Another good place are trade expos.  There is a Pump User Expo coming up in Cali.  Use petes vendor approach and meet up with them there and work on some projects or meet other engineers there....

Any consultants working for you on engineering have to be licensed, you have to outsource some engineering.  If not, make the next project outsourced and get some in to work with you....

I don't think of myseldf as the typical PE leanne, I hang around them all the time and to tell you the truth, I cant stand most of them....That is why I constantly try to get more engineers involved...THe process is good, just stale since most PE's like to think of it as a club....I think you can tell from my (non-likable LOL) posts that I do try and that it is not a club...

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

For a (not insignificant fee in my case) you might be able to obtain a listing of RPE's from your state bureau.  You then might find names of individuals you have encountered through the course of your career with which to work on developing recommendations.  Or at the very least, find out that you have yet to work with or near any RPE during your career.

Regards

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Yex, Texas publishes that list as well. It is available free to all PE's.  Not sure about non-PE's.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

The comment about McDonald's wasn't intended to imply there are lots of PE's working at McDonalds.

It was meant to humorously underscore that under TX rules, apparently your relationship with this person need not have anything to do with work.   So it (apparently) doesn't matter where you come in contact with this PE.... perhaps extends to eating Big Mac's at adjacent tables?  LOL.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Re-reading the whole thing, I see the part I have overlooked in criticizing the system is that the PE must have knowledge of the person's CHARACTER (not necessarily their work).  And if there really is knowledge of the person's character, then there is no reason to believe they have fudged the rest of the person's application.... we can take them at their word on their SER. So thinking about it that way I gain back a small measure of faith in the system.

So it appears that people (PE's) that you come in contact outside of work who somehow have knowledge of your character can also be considered.  Mabye an engineering professor.  Maybe a teammate on sports team.  If you are active in church maybe there is church PE.

The questions about relatives and business relationships appear designed to flag those particular acquaintannces that might reason for bias.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

I second electricpete's last comment--as I was reading the string, it occured to me that I know of three PE's (including myself) who are active in my church.  I can think of several non-PE's whose character I would unequivocally vouch for if asked. So, in all seriousness, look in your church/mosque/synagogue, or whatever other non-professional social settings you are active in.

My understanding when I went through the process myself was that it was a combination of both character and professional references. The justification for allowing non-PE's to evaluate the requestor is to allow for a valid review of candidates' work experience (in the event that few PE's work with the candidate). Essentially, make sure that there are some professional references, and if you only have one PE professional reference, get some PE's as "character witnesses".

Brad

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
The last few churches I've been a member of (moved 5 times in 3 years) did not have any PEs that I knew. In one church I new everyone - small country church & there were no engineers except me. A couple of people worked at the bank in town or the one 10 miles away in Commerce. A few worked at the school. A few had worked in sales positions. The rest were farmers.

Perhaps as I evaluate a new church home (since I've yet to move my membership from McKinney to a church in Indy), one criteria should be the number of PEs

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

You've just got to move to Detroit.  Around here, engineers are like flies on ****
Brad
(of course, there's probably better criteria for choosing religious affiliation than engineers)

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
That many engineers, huh? but Detroit? I want to retire in Florida...Detroit takes me further away...

My past criteria has been simply listening to my heart...

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Bradh,

Know of any PE's on the west side of the state?  I've been here for over 15 years and have yet to bump into one.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

I only know about three people total on the west side of the state, so I'm hardly the authority.
Brad

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Well Brad,

You are the first PE I have encountered residing in Michigan.  Supposedly there are 11,000 or so.  I wonder if they do tend to be concentrated within the Detroit area.  I am hoping to find a few just to see if paths have crossed during my work history.  I can't get licensed without PE verification so I haven't even bothered to make the attempt.

Regards

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Hmmm, it's an interesting aspect. As explained above there is some good logic to requiring PE's to verify people's experience/character because it protects the integrity of the system.  If anyone can serve as a reference for xperience/character, how would the board judge the character of the person giving the refernce?

I can also see the other side. It just doesn't seem right that someone should be restrained from getting a certification simply because they don't "know" the right people.  

Interested to hear others' opinions... is the system broken? Is there a better way to do it which would protect the integrity but not penalize people for not having the right "connections" (associates)?

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Another suggestion--many engineering professors have PE's. I was fortunate to have good relations and to have been somewhat memorable to some of my professors. I had three (out of three I requested) offer to write me a reference if I needed one.  In the end, I only had one prof give a reference (as I had other references with more opportunity to assess my professional background).  If you made a (good) impression on any professors, you may want to look them up.

Brad

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
Since I'm starting grad school over (it's been over 7 years since my last grad classes), I may see if I can select at least a few classes with PE profs...It may well be my best option for getting the PE recs outside PE kinfolk (I do not want to use them as it smacks of what do they call it? nepotism?)

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

I'm willing to bet PE boards in most states are aware of the problem industry exempt ME's and EE's have in finding references.

As far as references go, one of mine is one of my professors from undergrad.  It pays to keep in touch.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
You don't see too many profs in EE with PE...Most of the PEs on staff at my alma mater were from the civil side (and, they no longer offer a CE degree plan) - I think Dr. Holman was a PE, but I'm not sure. I had one class with him - Thermo.

I don't recall any EE profs with PE while I was an undergrad...So, I went back the staff pages & here's what I found int the EE department: plenty of IEEE fellows, lots of PhD, text book authors, alas - no PEs in the EE department

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

TheTick:

You bet those state boards know what is going on!!!!  That is why I speak so openly as I do.  I dont like what the state boards are doing or the people invloved with the boards.  They treat it like a club for the few...That is not what it is about and until you exempt engineers start asking questions of them, they will no doubt stay that way...I question the boards all the time as to why we cant reach out to the exempt engineers, but there are few PE's like me willing to buck the system, most of them are sheep, following the herd.  Start asking what the board can do for you, not what you can do for the board...

LEanne:  you dont need a EE PE to be a reference, you have to have had fluids and structures, there may be PE's there that will help.

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

As far as boards go, remember there's one for every state in the U.S., so it's difficult to speak generically.  However, I am all too familiar with the types of critters attracted to such posts.

My other two reference have never worked with me.  One is an old friend I've known since grade school.  He has every confidence in my ability.  The other is an acquaintance who has taken the time to familiarize himself with my work in order to be comfortable vouching for me.

Ironically, the only PE who turned me down as a reference is someone whom I was not comfortable with, because I have no confidence in his abilities.

Still mulling over whether to take the test or go via the experience + degree path offered by my state (Wisconsin).  My vanity wants me to pass the test.  Plus, it would be nice to get a refresher on some things.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Bob - do you recommend that people be eligible for licensing without zero references from any PE?  (if so - how  do we address the issue of verifying the character of the person giving the reference?

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

electricpete:

I think that PE references are a very good ting to have as they allow a higer level of review of the applicant like an apprentice/master review.  I do think the current reference process is broken though.  I Think we need to fix it and I really think it has to start with the boards.  An industry exempt should be able to apply with 0 PE references and I think the board should take responsibility on a case by case basis to review this individual.  The boards do not seem to want to be involved in anything that entails more work though.  I think volunteers with PE's as part of their responsibility to be licensed should make time available to review 0 reference people as an outreach probram sanctioned by the boards.  They would go to your place of work and review you, look at your projects, talk to others that were references for you and make a binding determination.  Right now, its the luck of the draw program like TheTick said.  If I choose not to vouch for someone, I am sure there are others that will, kinda making the reference process useless to a degree in its current form.  

I am convinced that the only way the process will change is by active and organized interaction of exempt engineers and the boards...With out this, the boards seek the path of least resistance and are unwilling to take on new initiatives.

Just my thoughts...

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

PSE and bradh:

I'm in Michigan too, on the west side of the state.  When I called the state board office, they told me that Michigan does not require PE references.  They changed the law to allow references from people who could be eligible to sit for the exam.  This was done specifically for engineers who work in the automotive industry so that they would have an easier way to achieve licensure.

Lucky us

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Let me play some more devil's advocate on the subject of allowing licensure with no PE reference.  Hopefully I'm not making any enemies... just kind of thinking out loud.

It requires more effort by the board to evaluate not just the applicant but also the applicant's references.  Sorry I personally don't believe the volunteer method will fly.  More effort = more cost. Even with extra effort I believe the diminished screening capability equates to lower screening standards.

We bend over backwards and "lower" the screening standards to what end? For people that don't even need a PE.  Those who need a PE work in an industry where there should be no problem finding references.  Those who don't know any PE's don't work in such an industry and don't need a PE.... except maybe since it looks good on business cards and resumes. Maybe that in itself is enough and everyone should have equal opportunity but I don't know.  

On the other hand, maybe those exempt industry folks want to transition to non-exempt PE-required construction industry and should be given equal opportunity.  But should it be allowed if one has never worked or been exposed to such industry?.... i.e. one day you have never seen a  drawing/design with a PE seal, and the next day you are authorized to seal drawings? Seems a little strange, but maybe it's ok.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

electricpete--
Interesting points, but I'd like to counter one:

You state "one day you have never seen a drawing/design with a PE seal, and the next day you are authorized to seal drawings".  In spite of my multiple PE references, that applies to me.  I was in exempt industry, and I still am. I'm recalling that I had 4 PE's actually vouch for me, and only one of them routinely used his stamp (two had NEVER signed off on anything, and the fourth hadn't in several years).

I have my PE and COULD sign off if I wanted on things, but I have never once used it. I also gained nothing from having PE's as references, vs. not having them (other than fulfilling the requirements).  Granted, the PE's I worked with were very competent engineers so somebody could argue that their competence rubbed off on me. However, there were plenty of good non-PE's who were more influential in developing my engineering abilities.  I think this is a good thing that Michigan has done (this must have happened only in the last 4 years).

Brad

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Good comments Brad.  When I think it over I think my last two paragraphs of my last message were out of line.  It would be great if engineers in exempt industries were allowed equal opportunity to get PE and I don't think there is any reason to be concerned because someone has worked only in an exempt industry.

Still the bottom line barrier to implementing it remains that PE board has no easy means of verifying non-PE references.  Accepting their comments without verification amounts to lowering the bar.  I know there are a lot of honest hardworking competent deserving folks with equally honest and competent references, but imagine the following scenario:  a bunch of degreed engineers in a non-engineering job. Perhaps it has elements of sales, admin, project management etc, but not engineering.  They falsify their SER's to make their job description include engineering design.  They get experience-verification references from each other, along with character references from the guy down the street and the church pastor.  How does PE board know the experience has been fudged?  No-one giving an experience reference has anything to lose (non-PE cannot be punished by the board).  Once again I know there are a lot of honest people, but how do we cope with the dishonest people that would fudge their experience? (not a rhetorical question... please respond)

If PE verifies the experience, he is putting his own license on the line.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
We bend over backwards and "lower" the screening standards to what end? For people that don't even need a PE.

Legally in most states, engineering graduates doing engineering work (even exempt industry engineers unless the references are limited to internal use)  cannot call themselves engineers or even have the title with the word "engineer" on a business card unless they are a PE.

Currently I can only say that I have an education in electrical engineering from an ABET-accredited institution. I'd like to legally be able to say that I am an engineer & do that, I'd have to be a PE.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Good point. I agree.  As I mentioned above I think those last two paragraphs of my 8/4 message went overboard. Got caught up in devil's advocate mode.  As you all have demonstrated, there is a legitimate need for exempt industry engineers to be able to get their PE.

There is also a legimate question of how reference from non-PE's should be verified.  (Not because non-PE's deserve any less respect, but only because they have nothing at stake in the recommendation and the door is open for abuse by the few bad apples)

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Leanne - What do you call yourself then?  In my state, I can have "engineer" on my card as long as I don't use the almighty PE abbreviation after my name.  Do you consider yourself a tech?

Resident (non-licensed) doctors are still allowed to call themselves Doctor.  Just no MD after their name.

miner

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

miner00:

without going into what state you are in, if you don't have your PE and you presented your card to someone outside of your company, you could receive a stiff fine depending on which state the infraction occured.  Your state may be dfferent, but many states restrict the term engineer and presenting yourself as an engineer in those states by the use of a business card will get you a fine.

You are not alone, there are hundreds of repeoted incidents listed in the various state agencies every month about this.  Most engineers are unaware, but get the hefty fine anyway which I do not really agree with.  Their companies gave them that title, but the fines go against the individual, not the company.  


BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

It sure doesn't make any sense to me that someone should be restricted from using the title engineer as long as they are within exempt industry and do not offer services outside their organization.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
mier00 - I don't currently have business cards.

My last business cards had my title as Quality Manager.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

me either electricpete......but using a card is paramount to holding yourself out as an engineer in many states and they make a lot of money from prosecuting people for it....

Why do you think microsoft systems certified engineer is no longer used?  it was a shame that the poor schmucks that used "engineer" after that 6 week program were getting nailed for 2,500 to 5,000 dollars a pop for holding themselves out as engineers after Microsoft took all their money....

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

From my State Website on licensure:

"Engineer" means a person who, by reason of intensive preparation in the use of mathematics, chemistry, physics, and engineering sciences, including the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design, is qualified to perform engineering work as defined in this part 1.

"Professional engineer" means an engineer duly registered and licensed pursuant to this part 1.

(1) It is unlawful for any individual to hold himself or herself out to the public as a professional engineer unless such individual has complied with the provisions contained in this part 1.

Nothing in this subsection (3) shall prohibit the general use of the words "engineer", "engineered", and "engineering" so long as such words are not being used in an offer to the public to perform the services set forth in section 12-25-102 (10).


By this definition (and the rest of my state laws) I am fully justified in calling myself a Mechanical Engineer on a business card, memo or by shouting it into the streets...as long as I don't either claim to be a "Professional Engineer" or try to open my own consulting firm where I will be peddling my expertise to the general public.

This distinction between Professional Engineer and Engineer works very well and anyone who needs to know if you are PE can easily tell by the letters after your name.  This makes a lot more sense to me than trying to mince words.  Most people have a hard time understanding what I do as a mechanical engineer, I can't imagine the confusion if I started claiming to be a Mechanical Assembly Technologist or some other such thing.

I would be curious to hear whether Colorado is an anomaly or the current norm.

miner

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

miner:  its an anomaly.  If you were to hand out your card or write a letter to say a firm in New Jersey, you would be fined....To me, that sucks, and Colorado, in addition to a few other states, has to fix the problem being that they are in the minority.  Now if your card had your Colorado address on it and said engineer, you may stand a chance, but again, its up to you to prove, and again, I think that sucks....why should you have to defend yourself to another state board?  

PE's are working to fix the laws, but some states just dont have the time or money to deal with it, and its hurts us engineers...on one way or another...

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
It varies slightly from state to state...

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/downloads/laws.htm
In Texas:

Section  1.2. PROHIBITED ACTS AND CONDUCT.

(a)  From and after the effective date of this Act, unless duly licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Act, no person in this state shall:

    (1) Practice, continue to practice, offer or attempt to practice engineering or any branch or part thereof.

    (2)  Directly  or indirectly, employ, use, cause to be used  or make use of any of the following terms or any combinations, variations or abbreviations thereof as a professional, business or commercial identification, title, name, representation, claim, asset or means of advantage or benefit: "engineer," "professional engineer," "licensed engineer," "registered engineer," "registered professional engineer," "licensed professional engineer," "engineered."

et al


It's pretty clear that public use of the title engineer in Texas without registration is a violation of this state law.

Section 20. EXEMPTIONS.

(a) The following persons shall be exempt from the licensure provisions of this Act, provided that such persons are not directly or indirectly represented or held out to the public to be legally qualified to engage in the practice of engineering:

(5)  any regular full time employee of a private corporation or other private business entity who is engaged solely and exclusively in performing services for such corporation and/or its affiliates; provided, such employee’s services are on, or in connection with, property owned or leased by such private corporation and/or its affiliates or other private business entity, or in which such private corporation and/or its affiliates or other business entity has an interest, estate or possessory right, or whose services affect exclusively the property, products, or interest of such private corporation and/or its affiliates or other private business entity; and, provided further, that such employee does not have the final authority for the approval of, and the ultimate responsibility for, engineering designs, plans or specifications pertaining to such property or products which are to be incorporated into fixed works, systems, or facilities on the property of others or which are to be made available to the general public. This exemption includes the use of job titles and personnel classifications by such persons not in connection with any offer of engineering services to the public, providing that no name, title, or words are used which tend to convey the impression that an unlicensed person is offering engineering services to the public;

et al


I have worked since graduation under the industrial exemption above.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

leanne:  I fight the industry exemption simply because of what it does to us as engineers....it is very devisive.  I think it also opens up corporate abuse of engineeing as a profession.  I am not against the industry exempt engineer in any way.  I just can't help but think that if industry were required by law to use your services only if you had a PE, that you would be better off as an engineer, (not a better engineer as seems to often be the confusion)....

just my thoughts....

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Leanne,

That is interesting...I just found on the sate of texas website a section stating:
What title can I use if I'm a graduate engineer?
Graduates of all public universities recognized by the American Association of Colleges and Universities have the right to disclose any college degrees received and use the title "Graduate Engineer" on stationery, business cards, and personal communications of any character. Refer to the Texas Engineering Practice Act, Section 1.1.

California restricts the following:
f. Represents himself or herself as, or uses the title of, registered or licensed Civil, Electrical, or Mechanical Engineer or any other title whereby such person could be considered as practicing or offering to practice civil, electrical, or mechanical engineering, unless he or she is correspondingly qualified by licensure as a Civil, Electrical, or Mechanical Engineer under the Professional Engineers Act.

In New York:
1. In New York State, who can practice professional engineering?
Section 7202 of the New York State Education Law states that, "Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title 'professional engineer'.

It seems like most of these states are restricting use of the title "professional, Certified, or licensed".  Not necessarily "engineer".  They are all very vague about this subject.

miner

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

leanne-

after reading your post again, if you were to take the texas law by the letter, it wouldn't even be leagal to use the EIT/FE designation.

What do engineers (not specifically you) call themselves out there working either as an engineer intern or as industry exempt???

miner

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Wow, that is quite an interesting quote from Texas law.

I work in Texas in an exempt environment (power plant).   We have 80 people at our plant that use the title engineer freely (pay grade, job title, business card etc) and only about 20 are PE's.   I haven't heard anyone complain or fined at our work site.  But I'm going to show that snippet of the law around at work.... I'm sure people will get a kick out of it.

I also get the PE newsletter which lists all discipline handed out by the board.   I remember there were some complaints about people offering engineering services without a PE, but I don't remember anything specifically about just using the title.

If there is no-one being harmed (the person's employement does not require PE under recognized exemption), I can't imagine any enforcement action on this law regarding titles.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Wait a second.  

"....This exemption includes the use of job titles and personnel classifications by such persons not in connection with any offer of engineering services to the public, providing that no name, title, or words are used which tend to convey the impression that an unlicensed person is offering engineering services to the public;"

So you CAN call yourself an engineer in Texas as long as there is no attempt to market yourself as providing engineering services to the public.  Right?

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

electricpete:

I think you are right.  Only within the walls of your industry can you use engineer.  You cannot use it outside of the company.  That includes correspondence to other companies, business cards handed to people outside the company, trade shows...etc...

Texas is messed up, it is one of the states microsoft took on to pass their junk word usage of certified systems engineer.  Texas really reacted strongly against them I guess....

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

"Texas is messed up"

I assume your just talking about the board, right partner?


(Sorry everyone for indiscriminantly wasting your bandwidth.... couldn't resist)

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

(OP)
I thought your name was Pete, not Sam

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

lol electricSAM...yes, i am refering to the board....LOL

no other problems with Texas here...LOL

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Folks,

I think we are missing the point here.  If we want to be treated like professionals we need to start acting like we are.  In my opinion, universal registration, elimination of the industry exception, and legally restricting the use of the term "Engineer", would go a long way toward achieving that goal.

Obviously, elimination of the industry excemption would need to be coupled with some type of short term (i.e. 3 - 5 years) "grandfather" provision, which would allow those with a degree and "x" number of years in the industry to be registered without references.  Has anyone wondered where the first people registered under the current laws got their references?  In most cases, they were admitted under just such a provision.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

jbassociates:

It is a tough point.  But I think everyone associated with the posts is making progress, including me.  I like your ideas...but the problem is how do we make them reality????

I think it has to come from the industry exempt side to have more grassroots meaning to the boards.  I am willing to do what it takes, and make every effort I can to help industry exempts...I think its definately a step in the right direction...and this forum helps towards the communication needed a lot...

There are people here that are exempt that actually looked up their state boards and communicated with them, I think thats awsome...

We just have to keep trying...

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

From a selfish perspective, universal registration requirement sounds great.  
More jobs requiring PE's=Higher demand for people with PE's
I would think it would be an upward pressure on salaries accross the professional engineering ranks.
Engineers with PE's would gain.  Those that can't obtain PE's for some reason (possibly beyond their control) would lose.

Seems like maybe an increase in the cost of engineers might be one more factor contributing  to loss of competitiveness of US tech companies against their international counterparts.

From an abstract point of view, my understanding is that the reason for requiring PE for certain work is to protect the health and safety of the public.  The PE involved providing building design is the last line of defense.  For exempt industries, it seems the organization accepts the responsibility  and the associated risk for internal engineering by non-PE's. Since the organization bears the risk, they ensure appropriate controls and barriers are in place to the extent required to protect their own interests.

Regarding whether PE's should be able to register without PE references... my personal opinion on that subject already occupies too many kilobytes on this thread.  But I don't think that the processing of the "original PE's" has much relevance to that discussion. Surely those original PE's were a  smaller number with increased scrutiny.  More importantly those guys are all dead by now.  But any references that those original PE's provided to subsequent generations still carry much more weight than a non-PE. After all, those original PE's still had something to lose if they signed a bogus SER for an applicant.

ElectricSam?... doesn't have much a ring to it. How about Yosemite Pete?
(I hates rabbits and other furry varmints)

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Pete,

Perhaps a little selfishness is what this profession needs.  In my experience companies tend to see engineers as interchangeable cogs.  Any fifty are just as good as any other fifty, so lets hire the cheapest ones we can find.  Its funny, but this logic doesn't appear to apply to CEOs.  Lets remember that the Industrial Exemption was not created for the benefit of engineers working in industry, it was created for the benefit of industry.

In my opinion, the greatest threat to the economic competitiveness of US industry is not higher wages for engineers, but, the drain on the engineering talent pool which the current situation is causing.  For better or worse, we are in a global economy, and it seems to me that we have two choices.  We can lower our standard of living to compete with third world labor, or we can strive to create a profession which attracts the "best and brightest".  People whose technical skill and creative input add value far in excess of their compensation.  Personally, I vote for the latter.

My point in bringing up the "original engineers" was not intended to imply that references from practicing PE's familiar with ones work are not valuable.  I believe that they serve an important function.  I have provided references for several people who worked under my direct supervision, and have always considered it a serious responsibility.  The point that I'm trying to make is that the Industrial Exemption has created a "chicken and egg" situation where few engineers working in industry are registered, and most cannot be registered because, few engineers working in industry are registered.  If we are ever going achieve true professionalism, which in my opinion requires universal registration, then we need to find a way around this situation.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Hi jb.  Your comments make good sense.  I'll have to think about that best and the brightest part.

I can see your logic that easing some requirements to PE licensing (like PE references) may be required to make the transition.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

I hate to say this, I would guess industry exempt (electrical) engineers make as much as your PE consultants.
  
I do not see how making PE licensing mandatory for all engineers would help the engineering discipline. If PE's do make more (maybe they do in general) then wont this bring the wages up causing more outsourcing to other countries? Also, who will bear the cost of taking/studying for the PE, the company or the employee? If it is the company, this will also slightly increase the cost on US engineering labor. I don't know, seems like the result would be a contradiciton to the so-called benefits. The way the system is now seems to be working fine.

 

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

buzzp:

If industry exempt employers were required to use PE's for engineering, do you really think they would find them overseas?  I think it would stop the current trent to outsource engineering and would reverse the process making the prospects for engineers even better.  I work in consulting and our EE PE's make in the low 6 figures, maybe this is less than industry.....

As for making the PE mandatory, I think it would eliminate a lot of the charlatans that practice our profession....As was stated in other posts, it wont make for a better engineer, but it would say that the PE passed a minimum set of standards to become an engineer....

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

low 6 doesn't sound much for an experienced engineer in a consultancy to me. 400k (US$) is not unheard of for industry exempt automotive engineering consultants. I've worked with two.

Rick seems to think in Canada that PE or no PE wages top out at 100k. Since their PE system is the least shambolic of anyone I really don't agree with your point.

If PEs were compulsory then everyone would get PEs, or reciprocal equivalents. Worldwide. Bang goes your cosy monopoly. Be careful what you wish for.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

GregLocock, you hire staff engineer consultants that make 400k....let me know how I can help your company!!!! LOL....

Every engineer getting their PE (no substitutes though) is my goal!!! LOL  no monopoly thoughts, that isn't what its about!!!!

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

"you hire staff engineer consultants that make 400k....let me know how I can help your company!!!! ". You can't. You aren't qualified.

"no monopoly thoughts, that isn't what its about". Um, if an effect is to force up the cost of a service by imposing restrictions on the availability of that resource, it sure looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Oh, you are right, they were only on $US288k, I forgot about the exchange rate

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

greglocock...how do you know I am not  qualified...that's pretty assuming of you LOL...but then again you know what they say...lol  I work for a lot of Automotive industries...that need PE's that is LOL...who knows, maybe even yours...lol  now that would be funny LOL....

BobPE

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

BML from your August 4 post.

Where did you come across this exception.  I contacted the Michigan Board a couple of weeks ago (I was on vacation last week) and they gave me no indication that general references were acceptable.  Work experience had to be verified by at least 3 PE's.

Please keep the general thread going.  Good posts!

Regards,

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Quick comment on the original question.  Texas has an on-line search for active PE's

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/NewSearch/get.cgi?db=rpe

You can search by city, branch (discipline), employer etc... and you can apply two search criteria at the same time.

Maybe if you search for PE's in your city you will see a name you recognize. Or if large company search your company and maybe some are hiding there.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

... and search the companies that your company interfaces with.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

PSE - I called the Michigan licensing office a few months ago when I was considering applying this year.  There was a specific clause in the law that was posted on their site that seemed a bit odd.  When I called, I asked what it meant.  The person indicated that the law was written such that as long as your work experience and references were from people who could hold a PE license, then they would be valid.  She went on to add that this was implemented for the benefit of the many automotive engineers in this state.  Perhaps they have changed the law or its interpretation since the last time I checked?

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

PSE - More info.

I checked the Michigan licensing board website, and there was a clear statement that the experience must be verified by three professional engineers.  However, as part of the department's policy (a portion of which follows), it clearly states that the experience and verification does NOT need to be from a professional engineer.

DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AND INDUSTRY SERVICES
DIRECTOR'S OFFICE, PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS

(By authority conferred on the director of the  department  of  consumer  and industry services by 1980 PA 299, MCL 339.308  and  Executive  Reorganization Order No. 1996-2, MCL 445.2001)

PART 2. LICENSURE

R 339.16022 Professional engineering experience.

(3) Acceptable experience, as defined in subrule (1) of this rule, shall be performed by the applicant under the direction of a licensed professional engineer or a person of equivalent professional standing.

(4) An applicant shall provide the department with a description of work experience with the examination application and shall cause verification of work experience to be filed with the  department by  persons familiar with the nature of the work performed by the applicant.

History:  1985 MR 8, Eff. Sept. 12, 1985.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Havent been on in a while. I only have one additional comment in reference to Bobs last comment for me about driving up wages for all engineers.

"If industry exempt employers were required to use PE's for engineering, do you really think they would find them overseas?  I think it would stop the current trent to outsource engineering and would reverse the process making the prospects for engineers even better.  I work in consulting and our EE PE's make in the low 6 figures, maybe this is less than industry....."

I do not believe this would do anything to keep jobs here, still only need one PE signature. Keep the PE in the US for signing papers and let the real engineering work happen over-seas. This is what is happening now and will continue to happen. Although, I do not think all engineering positions will be moved over-seas. We just have to adapt. I think the manufacturing engineers (whatever discipline) should be concerned though. (save this for the other thread)

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

Oh, I don't think we can compare any wages unless we also name a location and experience. I know design engineers who make six figures as well.

Also, I checked my state licensing board real quick, and I need 3 PE signatures (5 references total). I have not checked into any special cases but I will. If I have to have 3 PE's sign then it will take a while to find some. We only have one in my new position.

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

If your state is like Texas, you don't actually have to have worked with the PE's.  They can just verify your experience by review of your experience report.

have to have?

RE: Industry exempts: how can they find PEs for recommendations?

I work in industry. I was fortunate to have worked for one PE. My second reference was a college professor that I did a published research paper with. The third was someone a manager knew who I, in turn, got to know.

I've read (including, IIRC, on the PPI web site) that state boards may turn a blind eye if you don't have enough PE references but at least have the requested total.

Rob Campbell

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