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What is your personal ethics "quick test"?
2

What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

(OP)
I have to make decisions daily that affect my ultimate customer - the end users flying on & off aircraft carriers. Everytime I make a decision that affects my customer, I ask myself if it's the best decision that I could make on the customer's behalf & will I regret it later. Would I be willing to go up in the plane with hardware affected by my decision? Would it bother me if I saw a write-up of my decision in the newspaper the next day - or if my mother read about it in the paper? (even at my age, I still care about my mom's opinion)

So, what are your "quick tests"?

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

a good quick test is:

Is it right or wrong?

If you can't answer that question, seek help or turn the problem over to someone that knows the answer...

As engineers, we can not afford to be wrong..If we are, the public suffers the consequences....

BobPE

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

(OP)
Is it right or wrong?

I'm afraid I assumed this as a given - considering the question was about ethics. However, sometimes there is not a clear right or wrong answer. How do you make those decisions?

As engineers, we can not afford to be wrong

I believe we are in agreement here...If I'm not willing to go up the bird with my equipment on it, a pilot should not have to either.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

"Would this provide legitimate ammunition to someone out to get me? And would my actions be questionable enough to cause a neutral observer to have serious doubts about me, if this ammunition is used?"

Of course, the first question doesn't say much; if somebody's out to get you, they'll conjure something up.  The second question is the one that makes me check myself.  If I can't answer that question confidently, I often bring in somebody else whose opinion I believe in.  I also then make sure I document what and why. (I admit that this is a pretty tough standard, but I'm fortunate that I don't have lives in my hands as directly as many others).

Brad

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

If you're not willing to go up in the plane and you would not ask someone else to do so, then perhaps that's the best test you'll come up with.

Is it always right vs wrong? You can't always give a guarantee. Perhaps it's about risk. The key thing is the people who are at risk need to be as aware as practicable of that risk.

Maybe it's a good thing to examine if your work has been compromised by factors imposed by others not so concerned with safety??? Management wants the job finished and installed by end of business today, no excuses! Does that eat into your time to test? At what point do you reject management's demands?

Maybe management should be sent up in the plane first :)
I'd like to see more of that.

Cheers,
John.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

Hi Leanne,

I think your test 'Would I be willing to go up in the plane with hardware affected by my decision?' is probably the best test, for you and probably your customer as well although they might not realise it. Say you fitted systems to civil aircraft and asked passengers about risks from systems, talking about probability of failure on demand, redundancy and diversity in systems would not make much impact on how they perceive the risks arising from your decision.

The problem with any decision based on perception of risk is that usually expert appraisal of risk does not accord with 'public' appraisal. I work on a nuclear licensed site, live about a 15 minute walk away and am concerned as much as anyone that the risks from decisions that I make are as low as reasonably practicable. However that does not stop the public demonstrating about discharge levels that are a minute fraction of the variation in background count across the UK.

The point, (I do get there eventually...) is that as engineers it is our DUTY to consider the safety of the end user even though some end users will never agree with the decision that you made. We have to be true to ourselves and our experience. If we are being pressurised to make a decision that we are unhappy with then we MUST walk away. If all engineers acted this way then eventually people would actually begin to trust us.

Regards, HM.

PS Get a clairvoyant with 20/20 hindsight to participate in your design process!

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

Leanne, in most ways your answer to not do something you would not use is correct. One other thought, specifically to your case, you work on Military carrier aircraft, you must also consider how your equipment might affect the operational ability of the aircraft.
 LOL I know I could never revert back to aircraft design, they would be bulletproof, hammerproof, and works of art, unfortunately, they would never leave the ground........

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

Some personal litmus tests.

Would I use it?
Would I let my family use it?
How long will it last?
What would happen if it fails?
Should I get an independent opinion?

Regards,

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

As a member of Scouts Canada for several years both as a youth and as an adult, my personal ethics test is “Would I stand in front of the troop and tell them what I did?”

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

Perhaps there is a little confusion between ethics and morality.  That subject could be a debate in and of itself.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

The question I ask myself most often:  "How could I fix this if it breaks?"

It is really easy to design something beautiful and robust, but totally ignore what a pain it will be for the guy trying to fix it when it breaks.

I also ask myself "Does my (insert various areas of anatomy) smell?"

As far as ethics vs. morality:

From Dictonary.com:
ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb):
* The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics.
 
mo·ral·i·ty   (m-rl-t, mô-) n. pl. mo·ral·i·ties:
* The quality of being in accord with standards of right or
  good conduct.
* A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious  
  morality; Christian morality.
* Virtuous conduct.
* A rule or lesson in moral conduct.

The proper question to ask is not "Am I doing anything wrong?" (abstract), but rather "Am I breaking any rules?" (concrete)
 


RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

My view is that engineering should be performed by qualified individuals, graduate engineers. ISO9000 spells this out very clearly. QS9000 is a little vague on the subject, and you will find a lot of promoted draftsmen working as engineers and engineering managers in the automotive industry.

My test is this: Is the mechanical design executed along classical engineering lines incl. load analysis, stress analysis, fatigue analysis, thermal analysis, dimensional range considerations, correct functional datums, thoughtful selection of materials, tested functionally under reasonable conditions, etc.

I cringe when I find that engineering designs are being created by other than qualified engineers.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

re: The question, "Would I fly in this plane?"

Military officers are trained professionals who are qualified to take some extraordinary risks.  It is not a fair question to ask an untrained civilian whether he is willing to take the same risks.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

If you need a code of ethics, then you've likely gone too far!

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

(OP)
Everyone has a code of ethics. Not all equal, but everyone has one...

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

No... some of us are ethical!  It's not something that you should have to quantify.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

Actually, sometimes ethics do need to be quantified.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

TheTick

Can you give me an example... something to 'chaw' on... I think a Code of Ethics is like a PR Department... If you need one, you're likely doing something wrong.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

dik:

Any time ethics are questioned in court.

See definitions in rhodie's post.  By definition, ethics are quantified and shared.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

I've testified more often than I'd like to recall and never once been questioned about my ethics... might be a reason for that.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

Maybe you could give us some details.

A person's own ethics are not likely to be at issue in court.  A person or company's actions with respect to accepted industry ethics could be.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

This is also from Dictionary.com:

"Synonyms: moral, ethical,
These adjectives mean in accord with right or good conduct. Moral applies to personal character and behavior, especially sexual conduct: "Our moral sense dictates a clearcut preference for these societies which share with us an abiding respect for individual human rights" (Jimmy Carter).

Ethical stresses idealistic standards of right and wrong: "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants" (Omar N. Bradley). "


Likewise:

"eth·ic
n.

A set of principles of right conduct.
A theory or a system of moral values: "An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain" (Gregg Easterbrook). "

The end result is that there should be no conflict or confusion between morals and ethics.  Ethics is a an attempt to codify "wrong" behavior through a series of examples.  

We, in society, like children testing limits, ignore the principles behind the ethics and basically decide that "if it's not forbidden, then it's OK."  That's the equivalent of seeing a series of data points and assuming that the ethical function consists only of points instead of the curve that runs through the points.

TTFN

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

TheTick
Been pretty lucky, I guess... any firm I've worked for has given me a pretty wide latitude... and, I haven't done many things that could be called into question... and I take a pretty strong position on my integrity, ocasionally to the chagrin of a client...

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

And where does congressional ethics fit into this picture??

Leanne, my father was a test pilot in the military, and refused to allow any mechanic to work on his aircraft who was not willing to sit in the cockpit and fly with him after the repair had been completed. If the mechanic refused, then he was replaced. Sometimes the code of ethics that we work to are not chosen by us, but are imposed upon us. Although yours appear to be self-imposed, it seems to me that you are asking yourself the correct questions.



                                              Maui   

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

(OP)
Congressional Ethics is an oxymoron...

We have an official code of ethics at work as do many companies. It's called the Standards of Conduct. It covers legal compliance, respect for others, safety, trust, meeting commitments, conflicts of interest, business courtesies, global responsibility, fair trade, inside information, intellectual property, resources, being a good corporate citizen. Some of it spills over into legal responsibilities. Some does not.

Not all decisions are black or white - those are the EASY decisions. Ethics has a lot of gray areas & therein, lies the ethics challenge. Some decisions are hard to make. If you haven't been faced with a tough decision yet in your career, count your blessings. Sometimes you have to make the choice between the lesser of two evils (after you identify which one is which) and minimize damage - there is no RIGHT answer, but there is a bad answer & a worse answer.  

In the light of recent corporate news, the folks most visible these days in the ethics arena seem to be the ones with access to the money - going out or coming in - the beancounters - used to be the purchasing folks, but the ethics of financial audit records seem to have stolen the limelight. Often when people make egregious ethical decisions, it results in laws being written. We are seeing this today with respect to the business world of corporate audits & such. CEOs must now sign a paper personally validating financial records & they go to jail if they violate the shareholder trust by allowing manipulation of  the books.

TI has a code of ethics because the company thought it made good business sense. I spent 14 years of my career there. Our Ethics program was an industry benchmark and first written code of ethics for TI was developed in 1961. I used to team teach procurement ethics classes with staff from the Ethics office. The ethics office part of the team focused on the macro ethics for the morning session & the afternoons were mine focused on micro ethics - procurement specific.

http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/company/citizen/ethics/benchmark.shtml

The quicktests we used in our Ethics training program at TI are at http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/company/citizen/ethics/quicktest.shtml

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

leanne:  you know I have to disagree.  The beauty of engineering is there is a right and wrong answer (it is black and white).  When left with two wrong answers, the right answer for an engineer is to walk away....engineering ethichs permits this...and I have walked away a few times in my career until the people posing the question, posed it in a way that a right answer could be returned to them.  Engineers don't give wrong answers, we may make mistakes, that's human.  If engineers give wrong answers, they are not true engineers....

just my thoughs....

BobPE

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

(OP)
Bob, please note that I was not limiting that particular post to engineering ethics, but more on a macro ethics level.

Engineers also make ethical decisions which are not specifically engineering related.

Walking away can be a wrong answer as well.

One of the worst things an engineer can do, IMHO, is to not learn from past engineering decisions.

What went right?

What went wrong?

What can we do better next time?

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

I agree with you leanne, its just that ethics outside of our own little engineering world scares the heck out of me.....I find myself limited to conversations with many of my non engineering clients that consist of yes or no....The ethics outside of our engineering world are far different as you eluded to...so I make an effort to separate information I get from people into engineering and non-engineering, including ethics...I know that may seem kinda strong, but I do understand that for non-engineers, maybe softer or different ethical values allows them to do their job and make progress...it just doesnt include me.....BLACK and WHITE....LOL....I am really not that bad in person, I have no pocket protector, drive a 4x4 pickup, and drink cheap beer....LOL  I put on my white shirt and tie and WHAM...engineer geek....LOL

take care

BobPE

RE: What is your personal ethics "quick test"?

(OP)

LOL. I have a pocket protector - somewhere...I also have a slide rule or two. I drive a Durango, but long for the days when my resto project 65 ragtop pony is in driveable condition, and I don't drink beer - cheap or otherwise - yech!

I have to deal with all kinds of non-engineering types. I have often gone to meetings outisde my normal realm of influence where noone even knew (or cared) about my engineering background, because nothing techy was under discussion. Jack Jill of all trades, master of none...

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