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Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs
55

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

(OP)
A friend of mine sent me the following link:

http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POLICY/2003/061803.html

It is depressing but true. The current high unemployment among engineers is going to continue and not only that it will get worse.

One of the threads in this forum concerns itself with encouraging women to go into engineering. If you care about the person, be honest with them (and yourself). Engineering as a career for a large number of people is over. A bright young person would be smarter to pursue another profession.

I don't believe that a person is born an engineer and will only be happy if they become an engineer. Obviously, if current trends continue, a lot of engineers are going to have to seek happiness in another career if they want to earn a living.

Globalization is good only for individuals with substantial capital to invest overseas. For the rest of us who work for a living it has done nothing but lower wages and increase unemployment.

Please read the article !!!!!!!

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Here's what the other participants had to say to the committee. If you read Pete Engardio's piece you will realise that it is not just engineering that is being outsourced because of low cost.

http://www.house.gov/smbiz/hearings/108th/2003/030618/index.html

Does this mean that we should all shut up shop, choose something else and will the last person out of engineering please turn out the lights...not likely.

Yes some things can be outsourced but a large part of engineering will be that we add value on a local level. The fixed costs for living in our part of the world may be higher, but as soon as you start asking for outsourced workers to come to add local value the cost will increase. It may be that this changes the way engineers will work in the future but that's life, we adapt and will find other roles that outsourcing cannot provide.

If everyone were to stop engineering and move to something else, pretty much everything else would stagnate and all of a sudden engineers would be in demand again...

Regards, HM.

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

4
dannym

Look on the bright side, brother.  People are talking about this problem with increasing frequency.  

In fact, last night on a major news network, I heard the globalization problem reported as "More significant than perhaps any other national issue." (I wrote an e-mail to them this morning telling them "Of course it is, you idiots!!!")  I read yesterday that some of the canidates for President are already pointing to addressing the unfair trade balance as a big plank in their campaign platform.  

The wheels are beginning to turn as far as addressing and identifying the real problem, where even as recent as 2 months ago we couldn't say that.  Contrary to popular opinion, Americans aren't stupid.  I feel better about the problem now that it is being addressed publically in the mass media.  

I am doing all I can to throw logs on the fire of public outcry.  The people at Wal-Mart probably hate me by now, because I send a letter every week telling them what bastards they are for selling imported goods they buy from suppliers guilty of price dumping.  I write letters to my congressmen on a regular basis.  I am working with a group  to buy billboard space across from a locally shuttered manufacturing plant.  Sign text:  If YOU don't buy American, look what happens!

Now is the time to do something about the problem.  If we do nothing- the people that the problem most immediately affects, then WE have not fulfilled our civic responsibility to our country.  It is shameful to admit, but the corporations in this country are no great friends to the Republic.  The best thing we can do is to not do nothing about it.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

This is a true balance between thinking "The sky is falling" and the knowledge that there really are some problems that we need to address.

The question I have is, what can we do as a citizen about this, other than raise awareness and talk to politicians, there is very little we can do to stop the corporate planners from doing this.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I'm going to play the antagonist here and have you think about the macroeconomic outlook of this situation.  Granted, thinking about macroeconomics is tough to do when you or your friends/family are standing in the unemployment line, but this is just a discussion so I'll continue.

I'm going to try to make a comparison between software writers and autoworkers from days gone by.  (I'm basing this comparison on memory from my macroeconomics class from 5+ years ago, so bear with me.)

When the autoworkers started outsourcing their machining operations to inexpensive foreign countries, Japan for one, everyone was up in arms about losing American jobs.  But, because of that shift, we not only taught the Japanese how to build cars (which ended up being better quality than American cars, at least during the 80's) but we had available workers (also known as unemployment) that we could shift into other jobs.  Now, rather than being a hug automaker nation, we are a huge technology and pharmesuitacle <sic> nation.

What we are seeing now is another shift.  We are getting away from the "new age" factory workers: the computer programmer; and shifting those people resources into other areas, like biotechnology.  So, rather than the US being a technology nation, we are becomming a biotechnology nation.  The hard part about this is that during the transition time, a lot of people are unemployed until they get new training in the fields that are popular.

Moving the automaking overseas brought us high competition which resulted in lower priced, higher quality automobiles.  Moving software programming overseas will bring us lower priced, higher quality code.

I agree with Rhodie in that Americans aren't stupid.  Forgive me for sounding arrogant, but it only appears that we are stupid because we are so far ahead of the curve that we are beginning to lap people.  Thus, you see us in your rear-view mirror.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs


"Nationalistic Buying" is indeed not the whole answer, but it is a big part of it.  (see: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/6297381.htm) The other part of the answer is to reciprocate the trade barriers that other countries have extended to the USA.  

I'm not sure if President Bush's tariff on foreign steel is a good thing or not, but it couldn't save Bethlehem Steel.  The WTO declared the US "out of line" with the tariff ruling.  So, now we don't answer to our own government but a higher authority?  I don't know about you, but I am an American citizen, not one of the WTO. (see:
http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3076278)

There are other factors at work, namely the illogical requirement of double digit ROI in today's US stock market.
There may be some greed on the part of American workers, but the first solution for the corporations shouldn't be to take our jobs away.

If free trade is to work, then EVERYONE must play by the rules.  This means no rogue, underhanded price dumping.  China is a HUGE violator, even self admittedly: (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200306/20/eng20030620_118636.shtml)
(http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worldbiz/archives/2003/07/09/2003058699)

I don't think "free trade" will ever work in its present form.  For one, there are no accomdations for the distribution of raw material resources among the trade partners.  The US, Russia, and China will always have the potential to be more wealthy than France, Canada, and Italy based soley on land area and populations.  Is that really fair?  (Of course not, which is why we saw the formation of the EU...)

My answer: as long as domestic capability for producting a certain good exists, then allow no more than an equal amount of import for a given quantity of export.  Competition would still exist, quality, not price, would drive product improvement, and the balance of jobs would be far more even:

http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2003/July/13/business/BlueCollLeaving.html

http://www.news-record.com/news/local/hp/imports14rk.htm

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?storyID=3080944

http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2003/07/11/build/employment/jobflow.php?nnn=4


RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

The tariffs that have been imposed on imported steel have done very little to stem the imbalance in pricing between comparable domestic products and the foreign imports. More than 1/3 of the specialty steel mills in the United States have filed for bankruptcy over the past 3 years. The problem that the domestic steel producers face is the issue of cheap labor overseas. If you pay a foreign steel worker 20% of what his american counterpart would earn, then it stands to reason that the products they make will be much less expensive than the american products. Add to this the performance of a strong dollar over the past couple of years and the reluctance of Washington to step in with any kind of support, and the result is the decimation of the industry. Yes, Washington did finally act, but it was too little too late. What will happen to the US economy if we suddenly find ourselves in another war, but have no domestic steel producers? It's tough to make military equipment without the basic steel making industry. And please, don't tell me how inefficient we are. I spend a great deal of my time making my company more cost competitive by finding ways to improve our efficiency as well as improving the quality of our products.

The world is changing, and we will be forced to change with it. For some of us, this means going back to school for an advanced degree. Others will be changing careers, and/or making lifestyle changes that allow them to adjust to their new lower income job. No, Americans aren't stupid. But some of our trade decisions would make it appear that we are. A co-worker who had recently traveled to China had this same trade issue discussion with a Chinese counterpart. The Chinese gentleman told him that if we (Americans) had any brains, we would assemple a blockade of our ports and torpedo any ship carrying Chinese goods. He stated that China would bury us with imports, because we are too stupid to stop them. A recent trip to a local Harbor Freight store made me realize that he could be partly right. During its grand opening, the store was packed with people buying products made in India, China, and Taiwan. I couldn't find one single product made in the US. Not one.
                                            

 
                                                  Maui
 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

2
My one comment to this discussion is that at least the professionals in the US are talking to their elected leaders and pointing out the problem.  Here in Canada no one believes that there is a problem, there is more concern about the brain drain, where professionals like engineers are leaving Canada for the US or the EU. The governments solution to the brain drain is to allow more foreign trained professionals to come into the country.

These foreign trained professionals, once they get licenced, are setting up engineering businesses and contracting out the work to contacts in India and other developing areas.  The benefits are obvious as they are charging their clients slightly lower North American rates making them very competitive. The are paying the Indian engineers a fifth of the going Canadian rate so making more profit.  Additionally the time difference allows the work to be completed around the clock so they can deliver drawings and reports in half the time - and its all perfectly legal.

At this point the issue is small but its mu opinion that the problem is going to grow as information technology and the internet evolves and develops.  Professionals need to learn a lesson from the manufacturing industry where pretty much everything plastic is made in China, Taiwan, or India.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I don't know about other readers, but when the realization hit me, several months ago, that my type of work is going to be outsourced, it precipitated a real professional identity crisis for me. I am only halfway through my career -- with at least 20 more years to work before I can retire, and young children. Until recently, I had confidence that I could adequately support myself and my family. This confidence has been severely shaken as I have spent the last year (+) under-employed.

My only feeble conclusion has been that I will need to find my work at the leading edge of technology development. Anything that even looks like a commodity product, where pennies count, will go to the places where pay rates are much less than in the US.

Does anyone have other hopeful thoughts for me?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

An article on MSN says:

In a question-and-answer session following his speech, Gates took issue with the notion that a decline in computer science enrollment might be related to the outsourcing of jobs overseas.
        “Basically, no,” he said, adding that there are plenty of job opportunities for computer science graduates, including at Microsoft. It makes sense for Microsoft to keep most of its development efforts centralized in the United States, he added.   
        “We will always have the vast majority of our (major) software development here,” he said. “We’re not about, ‘Can we do the next version of Windows for 5 percent less?’”


I think Bill's a bit out of touch; the outsourcing is exactly why enrollment is diminshing.

If there are plenty of job opportunities as he claims then why am I reading so many stories about unemployed IT folks?

cbiber - I don't have much hopeful to say. I do think you're right about staying away from "commodities".

The place I'm looking to bust into is pharmaceuticals or medical devices. I think FDA requirements make it difficult to funnel the production work to China. Even if they could, I don't think the public would be comfortable purchasing its drugs from China, India, Bangledesh, etc.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

3
(OP)
Our biggest problem is that our governments (run by wealthy people who have large amounts of money to invest and who don't have to work for a living) are bucking to the special interests and their large campaign contributions. Our work is rapidly going away to cheap foreign labor.

Look at the new trade agreement being negotiated between the U.S. and Chile and Singapore. They will be permitted to send large numbers of workers into the U.S. for an indefinite period whether or not there is a need for these workers. Singapore is negotiating with India to provide the workers who will enter the U.S. on Singapore visas. If this continues unchecked, good well paying jobs in engineering and computer science will be only memories.

Go into Wal-Mart and see how much is manufactured in the U.S. Very, very little. Many products say "Designed in the U.S. and manufactured in ______" Everyone realizes that the "Designed in the U.S." will go away soon.

cbiber

One "safe" area is government work. It's currently not allowed to send this work over seas. Particularly defense dept. work. However, if congress and the current administration has their way, much of this work will go foreign.

Rhodie

Currently a lot of pharmaceutical development is going overseas. One drug I take was developed in Japan and is produced in Ireland. Currently, it is illegal for me to buy this drug from Canada where its about 1/3 the U.S. price. The big power struggle is for exclusive marketing rights not U.S. jobs. The large pharmaceutical companies will move development and production overseas and then control the distribution of the product with the blessing of congress. Just look at the campaign contributions. The bill you cite has a "poison pill". You will only be able to buy from FDA approved foreign pharmacies and the FDA is refusing to approve any. You can buy from Canada. It is legal for pharmacies in Manitoba to ship to you but it not legal for you to receive them. However, the law is not enforced. It would be political suicide for a District Attorney to prosecute an old person who cannot afford his medicine any other way.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

How much of this is related to the artificially high value of the dollar. With the USA running an increasingly high trade deficit, the dollar should be decreasing accordingly. This is not happening. If it was adjusting accordingly then, oversees labour costs would increase some bit.
I’m from Ireland but I have a brother working as an Engineer in Silicone Valley. I know from talking to him how bad things are getting at the moment.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

2
Jobs will continue to be moved overseas until the businessman quit practicing good business. If the cost of labor is cheaper there then the businessman must move some labor costs overseas to stay competitive. What else should he do? If his competitor can sell the same thing cheaper than him because of the labor issue then he must cut costs somewhere in hopes of staying competitive. Given the economy today, there is no choice. In the past, it used to be overseas meant lower quality. This is not always the case anymore.
The majority of engineers are employed by small business. Generally, it is not practicle for small business to have operations overseas. It is still somewhat troublesome.
I worry more about our manufacturing capability being moved overseas, including the machines. An example of the catastrophy that awaits us, albeit in a different form, is when the harbor workers went on strike. All of that product (from overseas) was sitting off the coast and we nearly had an economic disaster because of one group of workers. Now step up the scale some to an unforseeable issue with a country/s or political party. What will happen then when we can not manufacture our own goods in the event of a large scale war(or not)? Given the sophistication of todays manufacturing machines, it is not practical to make these production machines over night, delaying product availability.
I do not see the trend changing for manufacturing until we get into a major bind. You can not expect manufacturing businesses to remain in the US given the labor costs in other countries. Until the public gets in an uproar and stays there, forget about keeping manufacturers in the US.   

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Thanks Rhodie. This is the kind of thing I was talking about. Great example. Never knew this kind of thing was going on during the war. I knew about some European countries speaking freely against the war and everything else but this is ridiculous. Bomb the Swiss (JK).

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs


The problem with the bill is that it allows no consideration for well established and historic agreements between the US and foreign suppliers.

For example, the US's fighter planes in WWII would have been half as effective if it weren't for the English Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.  (Some say we wouldn't have won the war without it...)

Fast forward 60+ years, and you find that Rolls-Royce is still manufacturing piston and turboprop engines for the military.  The new C-130 uses turboprops made by Rolls-Royce, and it is the cargo workhorse of our modern military.

This "Buy-American" Bill, proposed by a Pentagonian named Hunter, would forbid the US from purchasing these engines from Rolls-Royce.  That would be a really bad thing, for US and the UK.

The languange in the bill needs to be strong enough to kick American R&D into high gear so that we can manufacture suitable replacements for certain parts more cheaply (such as the JDAM example), but observe strategic alliances with long-time foreign suppliers.  I don't think a "cut-and-paste" solution exists to the problem.  

I wholeheartedly, entirely, 100% agree with the intent of the proposed bill, however.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs


On a more encouraging note, addressing the general topic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11020-2003Jul31.html

People are talking more and more about this.  The problem is becoming news.  Maybe we'll get a solution.

The best paragraph in the article:
"The exquisite political irony is that the howling is now coming from some of the same business groups that pushed so hard for China's entry into the global trading system. Now they are suddenly discovering what happens when you open your borders to a former communist country that, while making impressive strides in liberalizing its economy, still manipulates its currency, closes its markets to imports of agricultural products and financial services, violates patents, and prohibits investment outside its borders."

Only time will tell...

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Quoted from the thread, "Whither Engineering Education".
Thread730-63608

"...The downhill drive of research and development is well seen. At best, we are copycats of west. Just copying their manufacture and producing it at lower cost (at low wages)is no engineering and is sure to take us down..."


The best way to save American jobs is by American innovation and American excellence.  Who among us is personally committed to this principle?  Say it once, say it loud!

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

5
There is an interesting verbal expletives going on in google sci.eng.metallurgy.It is regarding outsourcing a gear from China at 20$ as against its US cost of 300$.So all of you for and against can join in this interesting discussion.

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=c8107abc.0308022125.26cbe1fb%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dsci.engr.metallurgy

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

(OP)
TheTick

I salute your enthusiasm. I don't think it's that simple. Most corporate decisions are made based on price. And I'm sure you are extremely hard working and pride yourself in performing an excellent level of work. But when management can hire 4 mediocre foreign engineers for the same rate as you. I don't think you stand a chance.

Unfortunately, engineering talent is viewed by most people as a commodity. Commodity purchases are determined mainly by price.

Also, as the status and pay of engineering goes down, so does the quality of the young men and women engineering attracts. Engineering as a profession no longer attracts the best and brightest. They are going into medicine and law where they can pursue lifetime careers and not bounce from job to job (or unemployment if they can't find a job).

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Well, I've made some good coin cleaning up messes created by Asian engineers.  Seems like I've found a niche.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs


RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Please take the note of distinction between Jobs and American Economy. Whatever we manufacture and buy here in India has an "American Brand Tag" and a subtantial sum goes to US companies as a rayalty, without "producing" anything. Offloading manufacture to cheaper places makes economical sense and that's why the outsourcing. Obviously the rayalties outweigh the profit earned if the goods were produced in US and then exported.

Jobs are a different story...

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

flame

it's not about royalties there, it's more about margins you make on a product, with margin = sell price - production costs.

But I agree, the company X makes more margins by manufacturing its products in Asia than manufacturing them in Europe (West) or US. hence it's economically better for this company to relocate production in Asia.

Royalties are when company X allows company Y to put its logo/name on company Y's products (Typically McDonald's Happy Meals sold with Walt Disney toys)

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

My point was to show who gets rich. Not an average American, not a lowly paid Asian but a US Multinational company! Wealth will actually be sucked up till we all are EQUALLY POOR!!!

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Flame wrote "My point was to show who gets rich. Not an average American, not a lowly paid Asian but a US Multinational company! Wealth will actually be sucked up till we all are EQUALLY POOR!!!"

The equally poor thing is the future that I envision in maybe 100 years. This one world economy will actually result in a sort of socialist distribution of wealth as we other economies become propped up as ours falters.

It's pretty scary to thing that capitalism taken to the extreme may have produced a socialist world.

I don't know if I'm using all my terminology correctly, but we can't create jobs in other countries, reduce jobs in our country without the net trend of our economy diminishing and others being uplifted.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT CAN WE DO TO ENSURE A BETTER FUTURE AS ENGINEERS AND HAVE HOPE FOR OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS?

Is the standard of living in the US destined to decline from now on?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

EngineerDave,

"What can we do to ensure a better future ...?"

Perhaps I never left the dream state of my teens, but I would suggest going outside some clear night and looking up.

I see a goal.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Anything in extreme form is unstable and has to collapse ,like Communism in many countries including India. China and N Korea are perhaps the exception. China with its poor track record on human rights, IPR,etc is still wooed by US is baffling. They seem to have completely pervaded US in all spheres and eventually might become the dominant one.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

2
Star for that ducky.

Meanwhile the Japanese are going to have another go at pumping money into technology, they are thinking about a 30 year program to develop better anthropoid robots, spending about $400 million a year. It is not exactly Apollo, but that is a fair lump of their GDP.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20030820b8.htm



Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

It is not always true that engineering jobs go overseas per se. In the UK, Japanese cars and Korean trucks may be designed in their countries but manufactured in the UK. Whether this is because those companies have realised that it is cheaper to build and then export in europe or whether it is because UK plants are more efficient than their own, even though the price of labo(u)r may be greater, is debateable. The loss to the UK in these examples is the loss in design engineering requirements although this is offset by a demand for manufacturing skills.
Conversely in the far east there is a demand for foreign design engineering experience in the field of iron and steel making, which they don't have. Again, the demand for design engineers in the UK is offset by the loss of manufacturing jobs in that industry.
Generally if you're in the right industry then there are plenty of job opportunities. If you design rubber ducks, however, then you'd better move to China.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

corus,
I think there are other possibilities for reasons Japanese and Korean automakers would build plants in the UK.

First, it may allow the manufacturer to comply with your country's trade restrictions while selling more cars at an acceptable, although somewhat lower, profit margin.

Second, perhaps inefficiencies in shipping complete cars or losses from damage in transport are such that it makes economical sense to assemble in the country of destination.

Third, automobiles are ordered with an array of options.  Many cars are custom ordered, so to speak.  Perhaps the in transit time would add too much lead time to a customer's delivery and would negatively impact sales.

Personally, I'm guessing it's the first.  Were it not for trade restrictions, every car in the world would be made in China.  IMO.  I look forward to a response from someone in the automotive industry who is knowledgeable about trade restrictions.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

7
The greed of Americans is astonishing.  In complaints about jobs going overseas, most of you are trying to blame someone besides yourself.  I know that my children will not be able to live a life of excess like most Americans do now.  For the 30 years of my adult life, I have recognized that my standard of living far exceeds my contribution to society, as do most Americans.  My life has been enriched by the sweat of people from second and third world countries.  Currently, the average American has more cars in the driveway than drivers who reside there.  Freeways are populated with vehicles that have a single driver.  People think that vacations are a right.  Our retired population believes it has a right to live independently on the back of the working class, (they say they earned it, I say they stole it from us).  Most of the products that I buy are subsidized by the financial and political enslavement of people around the world.  Isn’t it great to be an American?

I suggest that if you don’t like the engineering jobs, associated with manufacturing going overseas, work for less money.  Do not expect to have the same standard of living that you enjoy now.  If that is not acceptable, move overseas and see if you like it there.   I here they are hiring engineers there.  Just think of the opportunities that you are giving needed people from other countries whey you loose your engineering job.  It sounds like you too, want to live off the sweat of people in third world countries like our fathers did.   Perhaps you can find a way to propagate the American dream by steeling the future of our youth like our fathers did.  Nope, the genie is out of the bottle and in the next twenty years or so most Americans will start being paid what they are worth: A standard of living substantially less than we enjoy now.

The rich just keep getting richer, our middle class keeps getting poorer.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Funnelguy is correct in most of what he says. I know that Mercedes, for example, build cars in America. I'm sure that the germans complain about their jobs going overseas too.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

When I was last in the US, touring around the deep south (Louisiana, Missippi, Tennersee and Kentucky). I noticed that almost everything you touched was made in China.

My American pal says "this place would collapse without China - everything in Wal Mart is made in China". Even in the antique shop, on a plate I picked up it said 'made in china !'

I did notice however, that on more than one occasion  US Engineers were out there explaining their profession to the public - a thing that you hardly ever see in the UK. I must say that I also admired the 'can do' attitude of American engineers who seemed to have more enthusiasm than their counterparts here in England. If you want to see what US engineering industry will be like in 10 years time, come to England !

Its inevitable that manufacturing trade and business will migrate to places where they have the skills, and low costs and wages, and it's inevitable that migrants will want to leave such places for a better life in richer countries. You have just got to live with it.

"Putting Automation into CAD ©"

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

A bit of a tangent but I just purchased a new laser level which said, "Engineered in the USA, Mfd in Thailand"

That's the first time I've ever seen a tag like that.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Zapster,

I think greed isn't the issue. Concern for a solution is.

I agree the things don't look good for the standard of living in our country. I see a big drop.

What are the answers? On a personal level, multiple streams of income are a must. One can't survive on just one solid engineering job like they used to. I took a 30% pay cut relative to my previous job so I could work again. Now I am looking for ways to gain income from other sources.

There are plenty of Americans willing to work their butts off. They just don't want to work to build something that will be taken away from them.

I sure didn't appreciate all my design work going to Mexico and eventually my job as well. Many of us work hard to set up production lines on various programs there. All the hard work can get pulled under you, but what do you do? You work under the circumstances your faced with.

The only way for wealth now, is to work harder, faster and focus on multiple streams of income. Be willing to change jobs and continually learn new things.

On a greater scale, it really bothers me that our economy as a whole and many people I know will continue to suffer. It's really bad seeing the standard of living suffer.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Multiple incomes are not necessary to make a living. What drives the need for more income is a higher standard of living, I need a bigger house, motor home, motorcycle, a Mercedes, all not necessary.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

buzzp you must have been influenced by some oriental guru. You are declining to have more possessions ,you are on path to salvation. But Americanism is more about creating needs where it is not needed,like the colas or tobacco giants.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

'Americanism' may fit your definition in present day society but in the origin of America it was more about freedom; freedom to vote, freedom to bear arms, freedom to make a decent living. Needs were basic then; food, fire, and shelter. What more do we need? I am not saying the desire to have the things I mentioned is bad but what is the cost of getting these material things? no time with your kids/spouse to give them the attention they want and need, stress, more committed time. I like material things like the next person but I am not willing to sacrifice much of anything (time) to gain more possessions. Especially at the expense of my kids or wife.
Yes we all need a decent car to drive but do we need two new cars? I think not. Do we need to have the biggest house on the block or drive the nicest car? I think not. People who think this way are only looking to be admired from those around them. How else can you explain the need of a family of four to live in a 6000 square foot house? This is the only explanation I can think of.
Oh look where the cola and tobacco took us- both are bad for your health.  

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Oriental guru?  Aren't Japanese people paying money to suck on flavored oxygen?  What about prawns and Harleys?  Not all oriental people eschew the practice of overconsumption.

Also, tobacco use and manufacture is not limited to 'Merica.  Right?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs


Zapster:

Please do not flame me into oblivion, but I see this hatred towards "Americanism" as nothing more than an advanced stage of envy.

The USA rode a grand wave of wealth and self-sufficentcy after WWII ended, being the world's primary manufacturer for the many rebuilding years.  That reality is passed.  We still enjoy many of the entitlement benefits extended to our nation during the "New Deal" recovery package and during the "Golden Years" of the late 40's, 50's and 60's, all ideas that have outlived their service life.  The reason these programs still exist are a combination of some complacentcy but mostly goodwill.

Don't try to tell me that I live beyond my means or that I take more than I am entitled to.  I have worked hard for everything that I have, as I came from a lower-class and uneducated family.  I now share much of what I have with them, just like I envision the typical Chinese or Indian professional doing with his family.

I am insulted and angered that world perception sees me as "undeserving" and a resource hog.  Don't critize me for taking advantage of previous successes.  Our churches, charities, and citizens make sure the US provides more aid to needful nations than any other country- but that shouldn't be our primary priority.  We are obligated to ourselves first and foremost.  This is why something needs to be done about the trade imbalances and labor problem.

I could have been born anything else, but I was born American and refuse to feel guilty for that.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Well put Rhodie. I am glad I was born an American. I can't feel guilty for being given more opportunities. And it is human nature to not let those opportunities be taken away from us if it is all possible.

Money for me is security. It is the knowledge that your hard work will be rewarded and you will remain employable as long as you maintain the skills necessary to compete in an ever changing society.

The trade balance threatens all of that. Pure and simple.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Rhodie,

Why would I flame you?  

I too am an American, and proudly so.  I believe that the difference is in perspective.  You say you earned it, I say that Americans are opportunists who take it.  I consider myself an opportunist, and what better place to live than America, land of opportunity.  I love and hate the system; however, I am not ashamed to tell the truth about our behavior.  Many people live a life of denial because they can’t handle the truth.  

You claim that the USA rode a grand wave of wealth and self- sufficiency after WWII.  I claim that this was, and is, the era of greed.  WWII created the background for the National Debt.  Instead of retiring this debt (pay it off), the post WWII generation chose to pass this debt on to their children.  The great society was well on its way.  Now the National Debt is $23,200 per citizen.  Subtract out the youth and elderly whose productivity is marginal and you end up with $45,000 per working stiff in America that are paying for this debt.  If you get paid more than the average income ($30,000/year) you get to pay a greater share of this debt.  An experienced engineer will earn over $60,000/year, twice what the average worker earns; so adjust their share of the national debt and it come to $90,000.  I am disgusted with the behavior of those who started this trend of spending money and passing the debt on to the next generation.  How else can this be described besides greed.  I know Rhodie, they earned it, just like you earned it.  

We live in a society where the richest segment of Americans is demanding the most.  It is our retired mothers and fathers who are the richest and it they who demand their entitlements.  After all they earned it.  Right Rhodie?  No, they stole it from the working class of today.  They claim that they paid their social security and are entitled to the benefits all the while they supported the government spending that got us to where we are today.  How can someone say they paid for something when they spent the money on something else?  Social security is funded by our paychecks and not theirs.

The least productive in our society are claiming a large chunk of my paycheck as well.  The great society experiment resulted in a greater number of people living below the poverty level.  I won’t go into it here. But it is a fact.  One way to think of this is that you get what you pay for.  We paid for a lot of people in need and we got more of them.  Thanks to the great society experiment.

Now when someone hires an Engineer in America they get to pay a lot of overhead.  They get to pay for the Engineer’s portion of the national debt.  They get to pay wages for a retired generation who spent their money on the get society.  They get to pay wages for the unproductive on government assistance.  They get to pay the wage of the government administrator who doles out and collects the taxes.  Gee! they get to pay for four people when only one of them is working.  How can this be completive in a world market?

Rhodie, I wish that I could get others to stop asking for our government to do everything for everyone, and pay off the national debt.  However, it is not going to happen.  After all they earned it.  

So, I have decided not to try to change the world. No, I will just do what ever other American does, and take advantage of the opportunities that America offers.  The difference is that I know that I did not earn it, because, I know that I am leaving less opportunity for my children than I have.  Truly this sickens me.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I think Zapster makes some valid points insofar as entitlements and our national debt and the collective cowardice preventing any solutions.  A star for that.  I do enjoy these forums!

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I agree as well. I would extend those views to the whole numbers of all "advanced" (i don't like this term) countries which have a descent (and more) way of life. France is not really different from US on that matter. I think Canada, UK, Germany etc all live on this principles.

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Canada is guilty of the same poor spending habits.  Zapster is right when he notes that it is our children that will pay the price in lost opportunity.  If you look strictly at the education system in Canada it is not uncommon to see young people starting out their careers with
student loans in excess of $50,000.  My brother in-law recent graduated in engineering from Queens, his student loans are well over the $50,000 mark - he did a masters which added to the grand total.  I have friend that graduated from medical school with a speciality in orthopaedic surgery his student loans are over $100,000. Tuition has increased drastically for engineering in many schools up from about $1600 in y1990 to over $4000 in y2000.  How can a country expect a healthy economy when their best and brightest are saddled with these huge debts.  

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MTE85DRM has a good point and you would expect this debt to deter people from going to University but the number of students applying for higher education has actually increased in the UK. The system we have is that the loan is paid off at a very low interest rate and only if their salaries exceed a certain amount (an amount too low in my opinion). This has resulted in us having the most highly educated MacDonalds staff in the world, I expect.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

"Do you want fries with that?" is not a question that any engineering graduate should ever have to ask a customer. MTE85DRM has a good point, but I suspect that the debt loads are even higher than he has quoted. Ten years ago the average medical student could expect to borrow $100,000 in student loans by the time they earned their medical degree in New York. And the tuition alone at many private engineering schools in the US today will exceed $100,000 for a four year education. This makes it difficult to foresee an increase in the number of engineering students in the near future with the job market in such a tenuous condition. So what can we expect to happen with a continuously rising national debt as well as personal debt and a stagnating economy? No doubt that the number of personal as well as business bankruptcies will be on the rise. Are there any economists out there who can shed some light on this?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

$100k to become an orthopaedist who's going to earn upwards of $250k per year after residency is a great investment.

$100k to become an engineer seems like a lousy investment.

Last night began my enrollment in the master's program at the local university. As I was walking back to my truck I passed a university cop. It struck me as ironic that the university cops are probably going to do better than the graduate engineers once you add in time being laid off, benefits, and retirement plan.

I sometimes regret not having joined the CHP when I was 21. I'd be earning more now and have a much more secure future.

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Higher education in India is heavily subsidised by the government and it is not very difficult for the intelligent and bright students to get placed in such elite educational institutions. There are opportunities to earn for living expenses too. I have been a beneficiary of such an education system.

About 80% of engineers and doctors from such institutions leave for greener pastures never to return home. It is a gift from a poor country to a rich one.

This is being heavily debated by the politicians about the role of government in depriving the needy and poor where basic infrastructure facilities are lacking. But being a vibrant democracy such acts of omissions by the beneficiary students cannot be stopped.

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Arunmrao,

How much is spent on the not very intelligent and dim students in India.  Here in America we spend the most on those that will produce the least (no student left behind) at the expense to all.  We don't have to worry about these students leaving America.  If you want to keep more of your educational investment, try helping those who need the most help.

Unfortunately, it is the imbalance of compassion that makes it cheaper to hire an engineer in India than America.   India knows it cannot afford compassion on the same scale as America.  Americans just haven’t learned that we can’t afford the scale of compassion that is here while keeping our current standard of living.  Compassionate Americans just pass the expense off to their children with debt and a probability of a lower standard of living for their kids.  

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Some of what I'm reading generates new thoughts and comments for discussion.

In many countries I am told that more thought is given as to career aptitudes and placement. I.E., your career is chosen or decided on for you by your talents and performance. You may not truly have a chose for your degree in college in some countries.

This is true to an extent in the U.S., as a poor performer in math will have a difficult time being accepted into engineering school, let alone completing it.

However, if we did have a more formal system for matching talents and aptitudes, perhaps a younger child could find a career that he is more likely to excel at? Would this be more beneficial for the economy? I think so.

But it would truly limit the freedoms that Americans treasure, included the dream that one can become anything.

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Have a look at this article;

http://www.unison.ie/business/it_sector/stories.php3?ca=147&si=1040513

In Ireland it is generally accepted that our recent economic success can be attributed to US investment. It now seems that we too are becoming too expensive. The same too, it appears, can be said of Signapore.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I was born in Ireland in 1965 moved to Canada with my parents in 1975.  My parents spent 35 years in Ireland and are always amazed at the economic changes in that country.  It has become very expensive to live in Ireland - especially Dublin. The price of housing is ridiculous - my uncle sold his 1200 ft2 townhouse for $400,000 (Can $).  

Is the education system still free ?

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Sorry, I thought the article provided by Beserk's link was trite and completely without any real analysis.  There was next to no mention of the worker's or domestic economy's difficulties resulting from this continued trend.  Certainly there was no analysis.  The only consideration is for the short term gains of the outsourcing company and the less than equitable gains for the new source country.  This is type of pablum typically spewed by spokespersons for short sighted gain.

Not a reflection on you, Beserk.  I just wonder what passes for journalism of any sort today.

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MTE85DRM,
'The price of housing is ridiculous' - I'm glad you said that. I've been saying the same thing for the last 5 years. I get slated by my friends for saying so. This was caused by low interest rates when we joined the Euro. Ireland went through a boom while mainland Europe was in a slump.Hence the low rates, as fixed by the larger countries in Europe.

Education is still free but they intend to introduce 'income means testing' soon.

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Speedy:

The prices for housing in Ontario - especially Toronto - exploded in the late 80's due to baby boomer and good economic times.  Housing prices increased 300 or 400% in about a five year period.  Then the 91 recession hit and the prices fell out of the market.  There were people with mortgages for $400,000 and a house worth about $200,000.  

Watch out for the bust !

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A message forwarded to me recently:

"This came off the Fluor stock message board.  Enjoy!!

07/15/03 12:50 pm  
  
Msg: 5208 of 5213

Long-Term Sentiment: Strong Sell

Fluor management is following a path of internal destruction and has assumed the posture of see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. This means they
have so intensely focused on the workshare profit margin that they have assumed that critical functions of the company will perform as well overseas as in America while still supplying the customer with the same quality. This
thinking has blinded the Fluor management group to the serious problems that have been and will continue to hinder current and future business operations. The current philosophy is to Increase workshare to the point
that little or no work is done in America, but rather is done in foreign countries to take advantage of the lower wages and tax incentives (3% foreign tax vs. 35% national tax).While projects done in foreign countries
have been moderately successful to date, Fluor Management is pushing the envelope on future work.

 The workforce of Fluor's future lacks experience and has a very high turnover rate that will drastically affect Fluor's ability to provide a quality product.

 
Furthermore, much of the foreign production is of poor quality and frequently behind schedules dictated by the clients.As has been shown in the past with American workers, more laborers will not solve those problems, but will add to the confusion and reduce productivity.
 
The bottom line to the foreign labor force is that it will cost Fluor money and future contracts.The poor quality product delivered behind schedule will result in lawsuits, no-pay contracts, and excessive rework. When word hits the streets about Fluor's product quality and schedule
deviations it will affect future contracts with potential clients. While these points have been noted and brought to the attention of lower management, they  y are intimidated by the workshare philosophy piloted by corporate
management and will not alert upper management to the critical problems (Speak No Evil). And upper management at Fluor has turned a deaf ear to any criticism of the workshare process (Hear No Evil). Stock Holder attitude and
trends have shown support for the short-term profit gains that are the driving force behind Fluor's workshare (See No Evil). Read 'em and weep??.you aren't holding a full house."

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

2
There are so many good points made in the above posts - I wish that our gov't would stop pandering to the corporations and impose some sort of penalty for each job sent offshore. I know that this would be passed to the customer but maybe it would send a message to the corporations that if the gov't is doing something it must mean that public pressure is growing to equal the pressures corps. put on the gov't.

The really sad part of jobs being sent offshore, in addition to engineering and technical jobs, is that they are mostly the blue collar type industrial jobs. These are the people who really made America great and corporations successful with their hard work and belief in the American dream that "If I work hard I have a chance to succeed".

Politicians continually tell us that many thousands of jobs have been created to replace the ones lost. Well it is true that many jobs are being created in the service sector at half (or less)of the wage earned by manufacturing types and many temp jobs are created in clerical, janitorial, warehousing etc.. How does one survive and raise a family on $8/hr to $11/hr--- I guess there are some who can?????

I reluctantly predict that if the current trend continues that the third world countries in the world will achieve economic and political equality With America. NOT BECAUSE THEY ACHIEVED ANYTHING --- BUT BECAUSE OUR GOV'T. AND MAJOR COMPANIES CONTRIBUTED IN DRAGGING US DOWN TO A THIRD WORLD LEVEL. In twenty years our children will be living in a country where the majority of its' people are struggling for a basic existence.

Sorry if I seem negative, but as hard as I try I can't see the future as a good one for the average person in America.


 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

ietech:  Man, you nailed it.   Such is life in a Plutocracy.

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Thanks Rhodie,

It's nice to know that someone feels the same. I am one of those who have been somewhat fortunate in life and generally associate with the same. I find it very difficult at my economic level (just average nothing big) to find anyone who agrees with my thoughts on this subject as they only see their current comfort and not the future of our country.

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I have been scolded and beat-up (verbally) for over 10 years for predicting what is currently happening (and for what I predict in the future)-- first of all, I do not fault other countries or other peoples wanting a better life, it's natural and those countries have some brilliant hard-working people there, too.. second, this country still is an envy to many in that it is generally only here that the individual has an opportunity to become "rich" or at least to an economic equivalent to most residents (to rise above his/her birth level)...

but, I give my dire predictions, not because of my position or what has occurred in my life -- I, too, have been fortunate in life and expect to be comfortable for a long time... but I still have concerns for those I grew up with, for my friends, for my kids... life will become hard for most of them here in the US (compared to what we have now)and, yes, I blame big corporations, I blame the government, I blame those who grew up in the 80's who have never seen the effects of the Great Depression, life after WWII, nor the recessions of the late 50's and early 70's... who think only of themselves and let everyone else pay the price...

so what if we lay off 6,000 people, I still get my stock and my bonuses and live the good life -- what happened to caring about people in general?  I directed the layoffs of a large segment of my department a number of years ago -- I laid the guy off who lived next door to my parents and whose kids grew up with my younger brothers and sisters, I laid off friends I'd known for years... and it ate my lunch because, it was not done to save money, it was done strictly to give the Wall Street boys a "good feeling" that we were taking steps to enhance our financial stature... (we could have laid the whole company off and not saved 10 cents on the stock...)  obviously, my opinions of Corporate America have slid to the sewer over the years...

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs



The outsourcing of jobs to other countries is as great a threat to the US as terrorists are. Shortly after 9/11 happened, corporations were issuing statements of national unity, all while laying off people. In my opinion, the corporations are penny wise and dollar foolish. Looks like the US is going to end up committing economic suicide, courtesy of the corporations. I have already contacted the white house and the democratic party, petitioning them to stop outsourcing. I recommend that everyone else do the same. Only if we make ourselves be heard will we be able to stop this outsourcing foolishness.

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EddyC

I wholeheartedly agree with you: we should speak up.  However, we need to remember the "Golden Rule -  He who has the gold, makes the rules."

The corporations speak far louder to our politicians than we do.  The way to make yourself truely "heard" is to buy domestic where possible.  That practice has changed my spending habits and patterns dramatically.  Let the discount retailers know that "Low Prices" aren't always the best option.  Keep Americans working.



A relevant story:  While I am not familiar in any way with the San Francisco Bay Area, the following article reports that to just "scrape by", a family in the area requires $70,000 year.  That $11/hr service job looks pretty pathetic.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=...

We need to start thinking in the long term as a country.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Well, I hope you guys are redirecting your share portfolios/401ks to the companies that are employing Americans, and not sourcing overseas.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Yep, I am sure that in the land of opportunity that all of those who posted above, promoting more government intervention, are clamoring to purchase products made in America.  No Wal-Mart shopping for them.  Many of those people complaining above are buying American in some token way; however, under careful analysis most fall short of supporting blue collar Americans.  By nature most people like to be frugal, and it is shopping for value that is exposing our problem.  If buying American products was a good value, we would not be having this discussion.

It is absurd to blame the government for lack of polices to correct the problem. We are responsible for our government policies.  Look in the mirror if you want to see who is responsible for our manufacturing jobs going overseas.  There are too many people in denial about their participation in this problem.  

I see those interested in a government solution to solve the exodus of blue collar jobs as an attempt to protect their perceived piece of the pie.  After all, they believe they earned it.  Even if it were true that corporate America is subsidized, shifting the subsidization from the corporate entities to the blue collar workers will solve nothing.  The problem is that our government is involved in too many subsidies.  One more subsidy will not fix this problem. Instead, it will only add more fuel to the fire.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

The prevailing corporate philosophy seems to be make something and sell it to the U.S.  If they can do it cheaper than a US company then it is natural for a US firm to respond by "lowering costs" generally through outsourcing.  In effect, doubling the drain on the US.

The US can only drive the world economy for so long.  When the american consumer becomes sated (if it ever happens)they will stop buying.  If everything you own is already new, why buy more?  If countries outside the US do not develop their own or markets other than the US, their own collapse will be terrible to behold.  If you put all your eggs in one basket and it gets overturned, you likely will have nothing left.  Non US countries need to develop non US markets.  Compete in the world, not just the US.

Regards,

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Greg, yes.  My family has done just that.

Zapster, you said, "It is absurd to blame the government for lack of polices to correct the problem. We are responsible for our government policies.  ....  

I see those interested in a government solution to solve the exodus of blue collar jobs as an attempt to protect their perceived piece of the pie."


Of course, that is the role of government.  ALL governments.  Safety, security, and economic prosperity for it's citizens.

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Funnelguy

So to protect the manufacturing segment of our economy at the expense of the service sector is ok with you.  What do we do, “cheat the other guy and pass the saving onto us?”  That type of success I am not interested in.  Let’s stop all of the government subsidies.  

Your thought, “Of course, that is the role of government.  ALL governments.  Safety, security, and economic prosperity for it's citizens” is leans towards socialism.

I do not want a government that tries to provide economic prosperity for all its citizens.  I do not want a socialist government.  I would like a government to provide an atmosphere where those who choose to work, and work hard, have a chance at prosperity.   Prosperity should not be an entitlement which is in contrast to many Americans core beliefs.  Now, we live in a society where those who work hard must share their economic rewards with the slackers, and special interests.

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I would not suggest that we subsidize any company that sends jobs offshore. I suggest that our gov't protect the well being of our economy and people, a start would be to  penalize the companies that move jobs away. These companies must participate in the improvement of America and not just reap the rewards. Yes I will pay more for an American made product, even though they are very hard to find.

Zapster:
We need to protect all sectors of our workforce manufacturing, technical, service, sales, etc. etc. Let the other countries build there own success with their own innovation, imagination and sweat. Yes, they deserve a good life too and if they work hard they will get it. DON'T TAKE OURS AND THEN SAY "SEE HOW GOOD WE ARE DOING"

 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Funnelguy
I don't think the founding father's were socialist - but fromt he begining they took steps to "promote the general welfare"


"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

3
Can you create wealth without manufacturing something?  

Its easy to blame someone else for our problems.  I certainly don't think big business and government "leaders" have done anything to make things better for the average person.  Who among us goes to the store and pays more for the same quality and functionality?  I don't.  Tariffs and trade barriers force prices higher for the same functionality and quality. We have to be willing to pay more for "made in the USA" with a consquential reduction in our standard of living.  Or will our standard of living be higher if we export manufacturing?  I don't think anyone knows the answer.

But whoever thinks they know the answer better be right.  Executives exporting jobs are also exporting the wages of their customers.  The world economy depends on us buying stuff.  We could all end up in the third world.

Emotionally, I'm pissed that countries that couldn't drag their own ass out of poverty want to get there on our backs.  China was civilized for hundreds of years before 1776.  Why aren't they the world's largest economy?  The birth place of mankind was in the Middle East, how come Western Civilization created markets bigger than the town sqare?  





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BJC,
Where did I say the founding fathers were socialist?  I think you have me confused with one of Zapster's statements.

BTW, I really liked the part about "promoting the general welfare"!

Japan, for one, is all to familiar with how closely their econmy rises and falls with the fortunes of the US economy.  Why is it that we have these haters who insist that the US provide them with a market for their goods?  Suppose, for a moment, that the US completely closed it's borders to imports.  What would happen to the world economy?

Why exactly should your neighbor, a worker at an appliance manufacturer, lose his position to low wage overseas labor?  Oh yeah, YOU Zapster are entitled to a cheaper washing machine.  That no account "slacker" doesn't deserve to keep his job.  Those overseas workers are more efficient (cheaper).

Now, Zapster, the US economy was riding a wave of consumer spending for something like 8 years.  Real wages went down, but that was OK right?  Because overseas outsourcing to cheap labor markets drove the price of that DVD player from $80 to $50.  You still got yours, right?

CEO's, encouraged by past "successes" start to outsource all sorts of new labor costs.  Computer programmers, call center technicians,  CAD drafting, etc.

Maybe your job didn't get outsourced yet, Zapster.  But it can be.  Or perhaps you'll be replaced by a "visiting worker".  Maybe you don't believe that's possible.  Maybe you bought into the lies about "sending the low tech jobs to Mexico and keeping the high tech jobs here."  More blatantly racist words were never spoken.

Maybe you won't lose your job.  Maybe the town you live in has to lay off teachers or police because of the loss of tax revenues.  Those slackers at the steel mill deserved to lose their jobs anyway.  Right, Zapster?  Who did they think they were, when Mexicans will work for $8 a day?

Don't lecture me about socialism.  What you want is anarchy as long as it lines YOUR pocket.

China will not reduce our standard of living to their level.  They need us to have enough money to buy their goods.  Something our domestic corporations don't seem to understand.  The economy will turn around and run again when consumers have more income and can begin to reduce their debt.  Even the slackers.  End of rant.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Just another historical note.  "No taxation without representation" was a colonial battlecry when our government (the King of England) sought to enrich themselves unfairly through the sweat of the colonists.

I promise you that a vast majority of the Americans I talk to believe our politicians have only their own interests at heart.  The money donated to BOTH major political parties by large industries coupled with the continuing loss of jobs only serves to deepen the mistrust.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs


The economy will turn around and run again when consumers have more income and can begin to reduce their debt.

How can people simultaneously pay down debt and stimulate the economy at the same time?  Either people spend money and buy goods and services, or they compensate creditors for goods and services already purchased.  We only appreciate the economic *BANG* once, regardless if you actually own what you've purchased.

**********************************

With respect to China, we all must understand the culture before we try to predict the future.  China is the most ethnocentric and egocentric of all superpowers.  They are hardly concerned about how the USA fares economically.  With 1.3 billion potential customers, they will become a self-sufficent economy before long.

Investigation of Chinese political intent reflects that the Communists are Imperialist and Expansionist.  China believes that Taiwan is a rogue province of the mainland, and regularly holds wargames simulating "The Battle of Taiwan".  China believes it's "Manifest Destiny" is to re-unite with Taiwan, soon.

China tolerates the USA because WE are were THEY draw wealth from.  After we are spent, the complexion of world politics will change dramatically.

**********************************

China was civilized for hundreds of years before 1776.  Why aren't they the world's largest economy?  The birth place of mankind was in the Middle East, how come Western Civilization created markets bigger than the town sqare?

Well, the answer to your question appears to be that all of those previous economies and political system served the demands of an elite few rather than the needs to the many.
Communism, Despotism, and Monarchies all support a society based on class structure.  The USA was unique in the 18th century because we had no class barriers to overcome, and shared the idea that we all had an equal shot at being economically successful.

Unfortunately, the idea of "economic success" in the USA has taken a new meaning in the past 30 years.  I guess wealth beyond comprehension is "sucess" these days.

My opinion is that the downward trend in the US will continue unless US-Sino relations sour, corruption overtakes the Communist government, or China expands too quickly and it's economic infrastructure collapses under the weight.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Hi Rhodie,
You've been quiet lately.  Good to see some posts again.

Quote, "How can people simultaneously pay down debt and stimulate the economy at the same time?  Either people spend money and buy goods and services, or they compensate creditors for goods and services already purchased.

I do this all the time.  I don't stop buying vehicles, food and golf balls because I have a mortgage and credit card debt.  More money in the hands of US consumers would have a stimulative effect on more then just the US's economy.  Right?  Hey, maybe our government will forgive our debt in the same spirit as it forgives the debt of other nations.  Just kidding.

You may be right about China.  I was hoping they wouldn't "kill the golden goose", but you could very well be right.  I'm still hoping they develop a better domestic economy.  They certainly have all the elements to be the world's largest economic (and consequently, military) power.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

This thread is really big, and I didn't read all of it, but I have a few comments that I hope weren't said already. I view the future a little more optimistacally than most of you, granted it may be unrealistic, but I do not get much hope from exploring reality. It is has been stated that most of the engieering jobs are going overseas due to globolization. I'm not sure that the true potential of globalization has been discussed here. Imagine if our government and other governments around the world would drop tarrifs and make a real effort towards free trade. Everythign would be made where it's most economical. That could mean that TVs, cars, computers, and other technologies would become very inexpensive. This would cause many US jobs to be lost at first. But imagine when the whole world realizes how cheap it is to buy the technologies that we only see in the US and other technology oriented nations. Imagine if everyone in china, africa, etc could finally afford 3 tv's per household, laptops, cars, and so on. The demand would be so high, companies would even make money from hiring US workers. There is no reason for third world countries to exist anymore, the future is for them to catch up to us. The question is how will they catch up? Outsourcing seems like a good answer. The question is how much will it affect us. Not as much as we think. The worst thing that could happen is that all engineering jobs go overseas. Our companies will still be making the profits, but now we will have no one from the states who can afford anything, so either the jobs come back or the rest of the world starts buying more goods. IF the jobs come back we will be back were we started, but if the world starts buying the cheaper commodities, companies will see demand go through the roof. So then companies will make everyone in the US a manager of overseas operations. We could have 300 million people be managers for overseas operations. IS that so hard to believe that 300 million people would be needed to manage sales for a world economy of over 6 billion? Then management would get outsourced, and again everyone in the US would be out of work. But now everyone in the rest of the world has a high standard of living. The rest of the world has all the engineers and managers, who over time have demanded better pay. Now they start hiring US workers because of cheap labor, and the cycle would be the opposite of now. Does that seem so hard to believe? I don't think so, the US became the top power in under 200 years. We have outran everyone else by miles, the only problem is that we cheated on the way and made it an unfair race. If we stoped worryin about our jobs and money and had a broader view of the world, we could get a better handle on the real problems. We don't need to worry about china becoming more powerful than us. If everyone in china was rich, do you think they would go out and take over the rest of the world? No, they are human beings, and since they are well off, they would see no need to make war on others. I say we move all jobs to china, let them become so rich, they will have to police the rest of the world in order to protect their own interests. However all of that is unrealistic. The US will not loose all of its jobs, but it will take a big blow if we don't realize we are living in a dream world, where we believe anyone in our country can be rich while the rest of the world is poor. I say we reduce everyones pay. Let engineers make $5/hour maximum, and reduce the rest of the jobs accordingly. Who would find a buyer for a 200,000 house? Prices would drop down appropriately, and we would be able to compete with the workers overseas, and still live pretty well off. Ofcourse people in england would come buy all our houses and businesses, but who would they rent it out to? No one in their right mind would immigrate to a country where you get paid $5/hour for engineering. The world is telling us that we are overpayed and have to many luxuries, we should listen, not try to tell the world differently.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Iskit4iam asked:
Can you create wealth without manufacturing something?

I believe that you can. Others can do the manufacturing. We can offer superior learning, medecine, art, tourism, (by way of examples) for visitors from off-shore. They will be rich from all that manufacturing so we will charge a lot. Think how clean our air and water would be. People would come and pay for just that. However we will still have to be very good at what we do.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

OWG:
We started as an aggrerian economy and society (good at it)then came the industrial revolution and we were very good at the things required to succeed in industrial and manufacturing endeavors.

Please tell me why a society that has the potential to be the most innovative society in the world should be relegated totally to the service and entertainment of visitors from others countries. We CAN produce quality products and I think WE SHOULD.

I personally do not want to  smile at folks who can't even speak the language of my country for a $BUCK$ I am a worker and creator of ideas --- NOT A SUCK-UP just to survive.

I am not trying to say that services and tourism etc. are not important to our economy, but why try to exclude those like me who are suited for other things that are creative and contributory to a better world. Yes, you are right we will have to  be good at this too or we will lose AGAIN.

It's not all about getting rich, it's about doing somthing solid and enduring.

regards,
ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

ietech - Are you suggesting that learning, medicine, and art are less enduring than polyolefins and stainless steel? One of my friends often asks the question whether we can get rich without making things. His last project was a polyethylene plant. I am not sure of the answer but I think it is worth debating.

In answer to your question, I don't know that we have the potential to be the most innovative. I think there are signs that we are no longer in that state of grace. I also don't agree that service is necessarily a relegation from goods. Military service, foreign service, secret service, can be top jobs. In the sixties Canada provide many international airlines with the best air hostesses until we legislated mediocrity into the business. I can't see why providing the best hotels in the world is inferior to manufacturing bobble headed football player dolls. The mark-up or value-added on first class hotel service is as good or better than on computers and dvd players. I don't see how screwing wheels on cars is superior to asking a variety of people "Do you want fries with that?" The former is a higher paying job because of early abuses in the industry leading to strong unions.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Your point of view is correct  --- Maybe it's the challenge of making the head BOBBLE on the rediculous doll without breaking off and not the doll itself.

These types of things --toys do apparently do make folks rich though.

I still think we are among the best as engineers and should compete on a level playing field. Our gov't, since it is our means of dealing with other countries, should ensure that the playing field is equal. Then and only then can we demonstrate our innovative abilities.

There is absolutely nothing wrong, from my point of view, with the services sector. I only say we shouldn't give up on our engineering, technical and industrial abilities.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

ietech - agreed. Don't give up, but don't subsidize losers.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

No subsidies -- I whole heartedly agree.

By the way the doll mentioned previously, I think was designed and manufactured in China for the US market.

I have in my hand a perfect example of offshore manufacturing quality and accuracy, given to me by my 8 yr old nephew.

It's a model of the Navy Blue Angels F/A 18 aircraft in great Navy colors. It is a NICE model of the aircraft made in China. The Markings on top of the wings are  ---  Blue Angels  ---  USAF

Now we all know that the Thunderbirds are the USAF team and the Blue Angels are the USN Team. Maybe this will become a valuable collectors item because of this defect --- or not. It provided for a good chuckle though.

Just a minor example of offshore quality control on items designed for the US marketplace, especially China.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

This all will boil down to one thing, an osmotic diffusion of wealth. One day the world will be equally poor. Learn to subsist on a diet of cheap food and material things. That's what the environmentalists will tell you is required for an overpopulated world anyways!

Or you can bust your ass and make as much money now while the going is still OK. It's like the gold rush is coming to an end.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

EngineerDave has it right but I think a more appropriate term would be entropy - degradation to an inert state of uniformity.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

"I'm here to be the skunk at your garden party"
Intel co-founder and chairman Andrew S. Grove speaks out on the ills of outsourcing.

********************************************************
Grove Says U.S. Is Losing Edge In Tech Sector
Jonathan Krim, 10.10.03, 1:18 PM ET

One of the founding fathers of the nation's high-technology industry warned in dire terms yesterday that U.S. dominance in key tech sectors is in jeopardy, threatening the country's economic recovery and growth.

Speaking via satellite to a global technology summit in Washington, Intel co-founder and chairman Andrew S. Grove said that the software and technology service businesses are under siege by countries taking advantage of cheap labor costs and strong incentives for new financial investment.

"I'm here to be the skunk at your garden party," Grove said, noting wryly that his remarks coincidentally fell on the same day as one devoted to promoting nationwide screening for psychological depression.

Grove, 67, singled out China and India as key threats. India's booming software industry, which is increasingly doing work for U.S. companies, could surpass the United States in software and tech service jobs by 2010, he said.

More ominously, Grove said, the software and services industries -- strong drivers of U.S. economic growth for nearly two decades -- show signs of emulating the struggles of the U.S. steel and semiconductor industries.

In the case of steel, U.S. companies never recovered, dropping from nearly 90 percent of worldwide market share to roughly 10 percent. The semiconductor industry, Intel (nasdaq: INTC - news - people )'s core business, faced similar challenges in the 1980s, when it began its drop from 90 percent to 40 percent of the world market, Grove said, before aggressive trade and other U.S. policies helped it recover and stabilize at about 50 percent.

Grove said that even as the U.S. economy is improving, tech employment is not.

According to industry data, more than 500,000 technology jobs were lost between mid-2001 and mid-2003. Many of these were due to a contraction of the tech sector in the wake of the bursting of the dot-com bubble in 2000.

But Grove acknowledged under questioning that the tech industry itself is responsible for numerous jobs leaving the United States, as firms take advantage of considerably cheaper labor costs in India and elsewhere.

Grove said he is torn between his responsibility to shareholders to cut costs and improve profits, and to U.S. workers who helped build the nation's technology industry but who are now being replaced by cheaper labor. Grove did not offer a solution, saying only that the government needs to help decide the proper balance between the two. Otherwise, he said, companies will revert to their obligation to increasing shareholder value.

Recent estimates from financial consulting firms paint a stark picture of "offshoring," which allows companies to get software development and other services at one-third to one-sixth the cost.

The Gartner Group (nyse: IT.B - news - people ), a market research firm, estimates that 10 percent of jobs at U.S. information technology vendors will move offshore by next year.

Throughout all U.S. companies, Forrester Research (nasdaq: FORR - news - people ) predicts the loss of roughly 3.3 million jobs by 2015.

Grove said that the move offshore has been aided by the telecommunications bubble of the late 1990s. So much infrastructure for high-speed Internet connections was laid, much of it never used, that the cost of achieving high-speed communication plummeted. As a result, Grove said, "the engineer sitting 6,000 miles away might as well be in the next cubicle."

Grove chided U.S. policymakers for all but ignoring the problem.

"What is the U.S. public policy?" he asked. "I am hard put to find a document" outlining a policy strategy.

He said he had detected no recognition of the problem from any of the presidential candidates.

Grove also criticized the nation's overburdened patent system, which he said is causing an abundance of innovation-slowing litigation.

He said that the inability of patent examiners to handle the workload has led to a backlog of important applications, but also less than thorough vetting of patents that perhaps should not be granted.

Grove also said the country lags dangerously behind in popular use of high-speed Internet connections, funding for science and technology research, and education.

Copyright 2003 The Washington Post Company

END

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I don't wish to make this a political issue but, if you keep voting Repulican all engineering jobs will be exported to China, India, Malaysia, singapore and etc . The board of directors of manufacturing and engineering firms have no loyalty to anyone of us except the money they will save(we engineers are expendable). The strenght of this great nation lies in the Entrepreneurship of small firms but if manufacturing and the expertise leaves, where will we be 10 years from now?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

(OP)
ricky123

I think that it's obvious where we will be 10 years from now.

As a nation we are losing our manufacturing base. Service industries do not make wealth. To make wealth yuo must grow, mine or manufacture it. Service industries swap wealth but do not create it.

Our dependence on foreign countries for products will increase. Research and developement will follow manufacturing overseas. The remaining jobs will pay less and tax revenue will go down. Gov't spending will continue to rise and the deficit will grow.

The baby boom will retire. The government will not be able to honor its debt to social security and will have to default on the treasury bonds which back up social security.

The United States will join the list of empires which collapsed financially (not militarily): Roman Empire, Soviet Union, etc.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

ricky123,
While a few Dems are clamoring for the repeal of the Bush tax cut, none to my knowledge are seeking to reverse or repeal GATT, NAFTA, et al.  All of the viable candidates seem to be in lock step on trade issues.  None of the members of either party really care about this issue.  What they care about is campaign contributions.

I did notice that Bush took a bit of a beating from other conservatives when he favored steel tariffs.  Still, we haven't heard any big pushes from the minority party to fix any of these problems.  It really is sad, because historically the minority party has played a role in holding the other parties feet to the fire on those issues they disagree about.  I don't see that currently.

Big businesses have no ideology.  They will donate to both parties, but typically donate more $$$$ to the incumbent.  They play both sides of the aisle.  But I'm sure they donate only because they believe deeply in our political process.  They couldn't possibly be attempting to buy influence.  (Insert flaming sarcasm emoticon here)  

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

dannym - "Service industries do not make wealth."

Answer - Switzerland, founded 1291

Natural resources - potential hydro, timber, salt
Arable land 10.7%
Permanent crops 0.61%

"A prosperous stable modern market economy with low unemployment."

Agriculture 2%
Industry 34%
Services 64%



HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

owg

Switzerland has the benefit of being surrounded by fertile, arable land (i.e. Italy, France, Spain, Ukraine) strong manufacturing (i.e. Germany, Denmark, Great Britan) and natural resources (i.e. Polish Oil Fields, Baltic Reserves, North Sea Oil, France's Nuclear Industry).

Switzerland also has the benefit of having rather confidential, accomodating, and discrete tax laws, attracting much of Europe's wealth.  

The point remains that Switzerland is the exception rather than the rule.  The Swiss occupy part of a huge landmass with plentiful natural resources, developed industry, and vibrant agriculture.  Don't think for a minute that Switzerland would continue as an entity without all of those elements, or at least benefiting from the cashflow of willing foreign investment stemming from those elements.

DannyM is correct.  Service industries cannot make wealth; you can't get something from nothing.  Consider the Swiss financial economy as you would the midwest Rust Belt or coal deposits in West Virginia- all are geographic specific industries.  It just so happens for the scandanavian-high society types that Switzerland is the locale of choice for much of Europe's money.

 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

rhodie - I think you make my point. Switzerland has developed a uniques service industry with tax laws to support it. Location is less important than it used to be. And of course the manufacturing has to be done elsewhere and the service economy has to trade. That is the whole point. Why do you think Switzerland is the locale of choice for the high society types. It is not just location. If you want to learn about servicing such types, go to Switzerland and study hotel management and cooking.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

owg

The point was that services industries do not create wealth, and Switzerland does not.  They are entirely reliant on foreign investment and constant cashflow to remain viable.

I agree with you, the Swiss have done an outstanding job with creating an economic niche' industry, but that is all it remains to be.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

rhodie - I think we have converged somewhat in our views on this interesting subject but we may have to agree to differ on the outstanding issues. Many thanks for the debate.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

owg
Yes, and thank you for remaining affable!  Thanks.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

After reading this, I found it interesting. In all these years the steel industry and other metals processing jobs have decreased but I've managed to have a job in materials engineering as well as several of my colleagues. Perhaps we have all been lucky. However a not so short 6 month stint in the unemployment line changed my thinking forever.

Things aren't as rosey now as they were when I graduated with my B.S. a short 7 years ago. With things changing so quickly, I wonder if I can make a career out of engineering.

Having had the personal experience of travel to Mexico on a frequent basis, I can say that trade has been an issue on my mind for quite some time.

I don't believe that either party has an answer for this. I think companies are directly responsible, but in the end they have to do what it takes to compete. This trade issue has brought to reality some of the job layoffs that were always feared by automation.

After working for a big company and the perks that it involved, I am now at a small company for a significant pay cut. I think the future will be more and more entrepeneurial ventures. The days of corporate welfare are over. But think of how exciting it will be now. There is still tremendous wealth out there. It is up to each of us to find supplemental income sources to capitalize on it. Beyond that I think it is an ethical duty to make sure our children get educated and have some of the same opportunites we have had. I'm only now 30 but I worry for the younger generation as well as my own.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I'm not worried.....there will always be a need for onsite Engineers.  The only people who should be truly worried are those who prefer to work exclusively in an airconditioned office environment and also the mediocre ones.  I'm working fulltime but have been all over the world (except Eastern Europe) to know that the grass is not green on the other side of the fence.  I'm working on my Engineering degree in my off-duty hours, I kave observed and talked to the Engineers in my company.  These guys make a lot of money than an office-type engineer.  These guys and gals don't mind getting dirty, they wear coveralls in the field but also wear a suit back at the home office.  And us guys at the facilities prefer to call these type of Engineers because we've worked with them before.  These Engineneers-in-coveralls are so in-demand they are stretched thin (only a few available for new-construction projects)yet there is an overabundance of office-type Engineers back at the home office doing office work.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

zqew05,
Congrats on having a prosperous and fulfilling position.  I wish we all could...  

You have travelled extensively in your work.  What would prevent your position from being replaced by someone from India or China or whatever in the future?

Look at the reconstruction work done in Kuwait after the first Gulf War.  There were many contractors from many countries involved in the reconstruction.

Service technicians for a Korean machine tool builder were routinely rotated in and out of duty here in the US, while remaining citizens in their native Korea.

Why do you not believe you should be replaced by someone who works for less?  It sounds as though you already understand how easy it is to move people from jobsite to jobsite.

Please don't toake this as an attack, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Funnelguy,

No offense taken, I'm just highlighting the positives.  And no, I'm not as prosperous as the Engineers-in-coveralls but I do have great job satisfaction.  Yes, companies are outsourcing our jobs overseas for the sake of the bottomline and it sucks.  All their talk of being a good corporate citizen is just plain PR.  They'll get rid of any of us if they can find a justification.  This country is too generous in our technical info sharing with overseas competitors.  But then again, I thought the subject was how outsourcing affects us at the individual level.  Technology development in the U.S. (and Europe) is evolving in a dynamic way.  We are always at the head of the race.  We outsource technology after it has matured so others are learning from us, but basically playing catchup on how to make a product while here in the U.S. we moved on to the next level.  Even though we are still giving away some of our industrial secrets, I still want to believe American companies are learning from their mistakes.  They have learned that outsourcing might help the bottom line but in the long run it hurts their company as a whole because the outsourcing outfit they hired is now their competitor.

I think this thread will go on and on, so I'd like to pass on a 'Kodak moment" I had in the Middle East during Desert Storm.  Two ex-military fellas I knew back in California visited me at my unit.  Both worked as contractors for that country's Air Force.  One guy worked on aircraft hydraulics while the other fixed military vehicles.  They were complaining that too many jobs back in California are going overseas yet in the same breath they were so happy to get these high-paying contract jobs.  The next day an engineer from that particular country complained to me in a half-joking manner that there are no decent jobs for locals because the Americans and British expatriates have a lock on the good jobs.  It is something to think about.....

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

It all depends on whose ox is being gored.  

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Touche'

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

zqew05, I meant that all viewpoints should be considered.  I can certainly understand the frustration of the local engineer in your story.  My use of the ox goring statement was mostly in agreement with you.  I certainly do not wish for Americans to benefit at the expense of other nations.  Neither do I desire to improve the lot of other nations at the expense of Americans.  I am hoping that, someday, there won't be any more oxen being gored.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I was one of them coverall wearing engineers for some time. I would not trade that experience for anything because it gave me a leg up on the competition. Yes I made a lot more money but I also traveled continuously. Ultimately, this is why I changed jobs.
I don't think we are going to solve the problem of jobs being shipped over seas. I think one needs to concentrate on learning new skills and subject areas to maintain job security and value to your employer. If you are an expert in one area (like brakes on airplanes) then you probably have more to worry about than someone who can design a product from the ground up (including software), troubleshoot new products or field installations, etc.
The key is to get experience in as much as possible and do not get locked into one specific area. If your present job is not offering you that then one should seek different employment or at the very least pick up on another area on your own time to be more valuable to more employers.   

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Totally agree with BuzzP.  Continual learning is the key, unfortunately many companies consider that as an unnecessary expense

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

The recent and significant decrease in value of the dollar should help things a lot.   If you see my post from July 31, I talked about this.

Why didn't I put my money where my mouth is?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I do not put a lot of value in short term formal learning sessions. Universities are the place to go for that and some employers will reimburse you. I guess most of my diverse experience has been job related. I suppose you could pick up a new hobbie or if your company is big enough, try to get an assignement outside of your area of expertise. Or if not an assignment, get permission to spend some time in another area to learn. I am a huge fan of engineers spending time in the manufacturing or field if they are new. This gives them some real knowledge of the product and its application.
I have stood firm by this since I graduated that the only real way to have some control over your career is to OWN YOUR COMPANY. Its us small companies that people are starting to turn to because the big giants offer terrible customer service, terrible web pages, and chances are, they dont even mfg the product. However, the small fries are becoming more rare due to the ultras buying them out and becoming a subsidiary.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

This is a very long thread, but it seems to be overlooking one of the primary factors driving manufacturing and the related engineering job overseas - environmental regulations.  

The United States is no longer on a level playing field with much of the rest of the world.  The added costs associated with complying with environmental regulations, along with all the other government rules and full employment for attorney legislation that has been past in the last twenty years makes the US a very unfriendly place for a manufacturing business.  Add to this union issues, and the workers compensation costs in a state like California and you have a strong incentive for a business to look for greener pastures.  That happened in this country a couple of decades ago when US manufacturers moved to the southeast because of cheaper labor and friendlier local governments.  

I encourage young people to get an engineering education, preferably mechanical or chemical, because it gives them the tools they need to do just about any job they want.  Of course civil and electrical are also useful, but not a broad based.   

I agree with the concern about national security and the exporting of technology to potentially dangerous countries.  I certainly would not want some terrorist to have the ability to deliver the smart bombs we used in 1991 much less the stuff we have today.  

So what do we have to do?  Stop the tail from wagging the dog!  Pass one more law – That law would be that all environmental regulations would be subject to review and repeal after five years if it can be shown that the regulation has caused significant economic damage to our citizens and all environmental regulations would be either repealed or reinstated by a two-thirds vote every ten years.  Yea! I know it is extreme, but we have a real problem here and it is the primary reason our jobs are going overseas while our housing cost continue to rise out of sight.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

" Pass one more law – That law would be that all environmental regulations would be subject to review and repeal after five years if it can be shown that the regulation has caused significant economic damage to our citizens "

That has got to be one of the most idiotic proposals I have ever seen on this forum.

What is the point in having a high (economic) standard of living if every creek is a Love Canal, and your children have PCBs instead of a liver?

Bizarre.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Come on Greg, don't hold back.  Tell us how you really feel.  I think Scorpio7 is using an outrageous proposition as a means to make people think.

The flip side of this argument is to require all of our trading partners to comply with our labor and environmental laws.  I suggested this in another thread and was accused of only wishing to inflict trade restraint on developing nations.  Here I thought we could avoid dragging other nations through the sewer of our mistakes and simply allow cheaper labor costs to carry the day.  

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Greg Locock is spot on (as usual) with his comment about environmental regulations.

While I do not think we have any authority to coerce other nations to adopt our labor policies, most environmental regulations need to be universal. If the harm we are trying to prevent is non-localized than the preventative measures must be as well. It is also critical that measures to prevent environmental damage be taken as soon as possible. It is much easier to prevent such damage than to correct it!

colin pitts

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

OK, before I sound all Greeny, let me make an idiotic proposal of my own.

Scorpio7 is suggesting parity in environmental and health and safety regs between the USA and its competitors.

Why not have parity between USA wages and its competitors as well? This would make US manufacturing industry more competitive, and reduce the domestic appetite for imports.

Now, this is really a trick question, because this is what will happen anyway. As the competitors get more affluent their standard of living will rise, and the cost benefit analysis of environmental and OHS will encourage safer and less polluting industries. If you don't believe me look at "The Skeptical Environmentalist"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/052101068... for a well argued data driven version of this. Sure, societies in the early stages of industrialisation are pretty hideous places to work, but as people get richer they start to complain, and do something about it. Think Shanghai vs ChongQuing, if you have ever had the pleasure. Or 1890s London vs current London.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I also think the USA should lower environmental standards.  If we pollute more we will have more jobs and more money.

That would be great!

QCE

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Did i miss something here?
I thought ducking out of Kyoto was saying something about competitiveness.
And before we go overboard in criticising Scorpio7, how much of the environmental legislation is well implemented and effective? How much of it is downright wrong?
And how much of it is adding to the problems of the US economy, and some other western countries?
The popular view is that we live in an age of global warming. Is it true? There are some very strong views about and some say it just isn't proven. Some that we are just in one of those cycles when we are warmer now.
Can anyone say whether catclytic converters on cars are the right way to go? Correct me if i am wrong (i know you will) but i understood that most of the pollution from a car occurs when the engine is cold. The catalytic converter is at its best when it is hot. So the time when it is most needed it is the least use. I also understood that lean burn and modern engine management could have done just as good a job had the industry been told to do something but not been mandated what it should do. (Incidentally, i hear that the way to overcome the problem is to install preheaters to warm up the catalysts. Yeah. Right. So we are all going to sit and wait for the thing to hot up before we drive off.) Of course, i may this totally wrong. But how many cars on the planet have catalytic converters and how many don't. And how much extra fuel is burnt to compensate for the otherwise better gas mileage that could have been had?
Politics and legislation are the bane of everyones lives. In Europe, the trend is toward more and more diesel passenger cars. This may be because they are thought to be less polluting, I wouldn't know. The exception is the UK where the proportion of diesels is actually falling. The reason? taxation. (see SMMT reports). The price of diesel is lower than petrol just about everywhere in Europe except the UK. A phsychological point i guess since the mpg is still better with diesel. But government gets it wrong again. In factlegislation fears are one reason why LPG fuelled cars never made it in the UK, the fear that if it became popular the tax burden would increase and strip all the benefits away again.
So, do catalytic converters represent sensible environmental legislation or bad politics?
How about "renewable" energy? How many of us are pursuaded that oil and gas are bad? Should we use Hydro-electricity? Solar power? Wind farms? well, so far as i can work out, none of them is as popular as they once were. In fact many do quite a bit of harm to the environment themselves. Hence the latest European proposal is for off-shore windfarms. Great for countries with a continental shelf i.e. shallow waters over the horizon. But cheap? No, tax subsidised. In Europe the green target is 12% of power by 2010 or something similar. We're going to be paying for it but is it as green? is it as environmentally friendly as the popular view says it is? There are some who say Natural gas is pretty near as environmentally friendly, uses 1/100 the space of a wind farm and natural gas resrves are pretty much renewable due to gas migration (that one is a bit of a stretch... ).
Take some other "green" issues such as the opposition to incinerators in the UK. Frankly, we know there are some chemicals we need to dispose of carefully. A well controlled incinerator in a well regulated country is a good solution to me. But the "environmentalists are agiants it. The result? well i would suspect a good few more drums of chemicals will be "washed overboard" off the west african coast for a while to come. We are getting to live in a PC world where we dare not challenge the received wisdom of a few pundits and we are paying a price. Not all environmental legislation is well constructed, well intended, well thought out or even any use at all.
So is it wrong to suggest that environemntal legislation should be reviewed? No, not even for reasons of economy. Like everything else, some luxuries are beyond affordability if there is no level playing field. Don't forget that we are not talking about environmental legislation universaly applied but legislation that harms one economy more than another.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Why do you talk about a level playing field but then expect a higher standard of living than everybody else?

If the playing field were truly level your pay would be directly linked to your productivity... and I see no sign that an American (or English or Australian...) engineer has a productivity 10 times that of an Indian engineer. So I wouldn't go on about level playing fields too much.

As to catalytic converters, global warming, etc, I can and will discuss them, but let's not do it in this thread.




Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

KYOTO PROTOCOL.   We in the U.S. will try to comply to environmental laws if we agree to put it into effect.  Only a very few of the signatories to the Kyoto agreement are following the protocol.  It is all politics, this is just one of the reasons why we did not sign the agreement.  Countries go to these flashy meetings to sign agreements but nothing gets done past that event.  It would be nice to know the very few countries following the rules, compared to the majority of the signees who did it just for show.  I've walked the streets of some of these so-called righteous countries and frankly, their environment is very filthy (smog, sewage, rubbish)compared to ours, yet they love to slam the U.S. for not signing the agreement.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Greg,

A level playing field doesn't ensure sucess for US engineers it only gives us the same opportunities while playing by the same rules. I certainly don't expect more if I don't earn it, and don't believe I am better by any degree than an Indian, English, or Australian  --- just need the chance to try to play a fair game.

Just making the environmental laws equal in all countries would be a start.

QCE ---
That doesn't mean getting rid of or lowering environmental standards, just that all have the same ones.

ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Oh, so you are happy to work for the wages an Indian engineer works for in India, adjusted for productivity?

THAT would be a truly level playing field. Remember, the cost of living where you live has no bearing on the objective value of your labour.

Sorry, I don't believe you have thought this through.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

The phrase “A Level Playing Field” is one I must use with more care. I also forget that there are a couple of threads running here on similar topics and what I have said in one isn’t recognised in another.
I think it is inevitable that manufacture will go where the costs are more favourable.
(I’ve said all this somewhere else: (javascript:openindex(450,350,'http://www.tipmaster.com/includes/refinfo.cfm?w=450&h=3...')).  
But GregLocock is right in suggesting that I cannot mean that under the same “rules” a higher standard of living in the US compared to another country is sustainable. It is not. Not if we are looking at the same segment of the market.
What protects jobs and standards of living is the uniqueness of the skills.
In much of the wider engineering industry, skills are no longer unique. They are transferable. When they become transferable, other factors favour manufacturing overseas, such as access to raw materials and cheap labour, slack legislation etc.
In every industry there will come a point when this happens and many jobs related to that sector will disappear. The jobs that remain are the non-transferable skills; innovation is key component of staying ahead.
The problem is not how to stop engineering jobs going overseas, they will whatever happens. The problem is managing the change.
In the past, a profession could survive many generations, and the problems when the profession dies are limited to one generation. Today, change happens rapidly and each generation may see these changes in its own skills sector. This means many more people affected more often and heightens the impact of job losses.
One modifying factor is that the playing fields are effectively on the way to self-levelling as education and aspiration increase in the so-called third world countries. The gap between their capability to absorb new technologies and the Wests ability to generate new technologies is closing fast. Globalisation also plays a part here.
I have to think we are now in that most difficult of times; when skills are more easily transferable, because of advances in education globally, but where labour rate differentials remain significant.
Legislation is one more factor.
Short term trade barriers can probably justified if used to manage the transition in the job market as some manufacturing goes overseas. Some legislation is helpful and some not. Everyone working toward the same set of  rules would be nice.
What happens next? The wage differentiation is being eroded. As that happens, the manufacturing costs plus shipping costs will begin to make self-manufacture competitive again.
What is important is how we manage the transition of the workforce from one industry sector to another; from cars to planes and planes to aerospace, from steam trains to diesel and from prop planes to jet and so on. The jobs that survive in any sector will be the few that depend on unique skills or innovative ability. But what about the rest? Possibly we need to look at how re-education can help engineers. Most unemployment programs seem to be aimed at the unskilled or semi skilled because they can be comparatively cheaply retrained in just a few weeks (or so government believes). But how much help is there for engineers or any other profession with a substantial investment already in their education? In the UK the government thinks that as a higher wage earner you are better placed to look after yourselves; this translates as sell the house, fund your own education, take a lower paid job probably not requiring all the skills or abilities you have and just get on with it. Perhaps there aren’t enough votes in engineering to make a difference.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

JWM
I think you got it almost right.  The problem is more than managing change.  The problem is to assure that you are the one always making the changes as well as managing them.
Technology will always be stolen and taken to different places. It happened with copper production 5,000 years ago, gunpowder about 800 years ago and with a lot of other things ( might be a topic for the engineering history forum).
In order to keep jobs you have to lead in the  developement and production of new products and processes.  You can name a lot of products we (US) developed that are now made in China or somewhere.  That may be bad, but not near as bad as if we had to steal them from the Chinese.  
 Inovation and the developement of new systems and products depends on the level and quality of the education system.  It is  not just  dependant on engineering education but of all fields.  If we let our educational system slip we're on the slippery sloap to being a third world country.
There are a lot of being made elsewhere that were made here first.  It's a lot of work staying ahead of the curve but it's the only way.  Building a fence and hiding behind it won't work.
We need to build an economy that the world looks at and says two things: "What will they come up with next?" and "You can buy those things elsewhere but if you want the best buy if from the Americans".
Two of our greatest leaps cmae from educational programs, one was the GI bill after WWII ant the other was with the Space race.
Leading the world may be tough on engineers.  Your primary job may be coontinuing education and your secondary job may be working as engineer.

                         

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Well, i think the word "steal" might cause some outrage, but...you're right, in the sense that in technology termsa lot of products made in the US, or Europe, have ended up being made elsewhere and cheaper.
It's a tough call on quality, though. I'll just suggest that with the engineering skills you can design to the quality level that fits the market. I've seen products that were "over-engineered" and never sold. For example, in the UK one of the then leading supplier of water meters designed a new meter to meet the new standard. They were told it was a "Rolls Royce" of meters and bought the Kent "Bomb" instead.
Over the centuries, it hasn't been a one way street. Marco Polo did his bit taking from China in the days of the Mongol court. Prized targets included the secret of silk.
It is whatever drives your economy or culture that is prized and "stolen".
Japan, well Japan took just about everything not nailed down from the Chinese...writing, arts, culture, the lot. Of course, being Japan, they then went and "added value".
Algebra we got from the Arabs, and some math was considered ultra top secret, maps were another valuable comodity.
In todays economies, engineering and consumer products happen to be what drives us, nobody seems interested in stealing cultural ideas anymore, and this time it is the west that has it all.


RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I think the level playing field thing is funny:

Now that the USA is developed, we want all the other nondeveloped countries to take on our rules so that they can't develop as fast as us and therefore we stay on top.  These are the type of ideas that make USA so popular in the world.

In reality if everyone was even we would have the "world-average" type of standard of living.  I'm thinking mud hut with a bowl of rice a day for food.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Greg,

I think it is a "No Brainer" that regional cost of living is a major factor in the determination of fair wages.

No I did not say that I would work for the same wages as an Indian engineer living in India. That's absurd, I wouldn't even be able to buy food in California.

A "level playing field" that others find so funny or unfair in earlier threads would include:

1) Not put major industries out of business with overzealous environmental laws, i.e. fisheries, lumber, steel, etc. Our politicians should legislate laws that are reasonable and enforceable, not just to gain votes or political favor from people who participate in special interest groups.

2)Not allow importation of products from countries that permit child labor, prisoner labor, sweat shops, and penalize any American company that participates in these activities. I suspect you will say these things don't exist in the business world -- IMHO they do.

3) Impose fees on companies who send any jobs out of the country, and those who hire immigrants when there are Americans with comparable skills looking for a job --- especially in the current United States job market.


QCE

I don't think voluntarily lowering our standard of living to the world average is acceptable and it is not what I am refering to when the phrase Level Playing Field" is used. The phrase is directed to the issue of fair business and employment practices of competing industrialized nations.

Yes all countries or businesses -- even under developed --- should have to play by the same rules. ESPECIALLY ENVIRONMENTAL rules. I don't mind trying to keep the earth clean but it should apply to all countries on earth.

I am not especially concerned with the ability of the earth to survive our feeble onslaught on its' resources. When the earth gets tired of putting up with us it will spit us out, as it did the dinos, and make oil out of us.



 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Hello Again,

Go back and read what I said on January 4th.  Then think about what you would do if the eves of your home were suddenly invaded by a flock of swallows(we are talking about nearly 100 birds).  That happened to my neighbor and she had to pay over $800 to have netting put up before the birds could get their nests built.  If she had not done this the birds would have lived there for a long enough time to destroy the paint on her home as well as making her life miseable.  Why because these were an endangered species.  We have another situation in our area where a community that lacked the funds to do dredging and before they could obtain the funds six pairs of Loons have moved in.  Now about $100,000,000 worth of home are deterioring in value because environmentalist are blocking the dredging using the endangered species act.

I was in Mainland China in 1996.  We do not want to regress to their environmental laws because as near I could tell then, they have none.  But over thirty years ago our laws were so ridiculous that if you took a pail of water out of the Sacramento River you were not allowed to return it because it was too polluted.  Of course the only people really affected by this regulation were the industrial companies that had located on the river to be able to use the water from the river.  I have no problem with regulations that require one to return the water in the same state it was received, but those requirements drove industry away.  To my knowledge things have only gotten worse in the last thirty years.

I have a theory about why people from China remove their shoes when they enter a home; it is a tradition from their homeland where you never know what you will step in.  One reason most Americans only stay at five star hotels in China the want to be assured of the availability of a “western” toilet.  Many of the “upscale” shops have their own generators because electricity from the local supplier is so unreliable.  

So my recommendation that laws be reviewed and adjusted based on a cost benefit analysis still stands.  Yes, we will lose some jobs, but we do have one big advantage that would keep industry here IF we corrected the major flaws in our environmental, and employee related rules and regulations.  We have a stable government in a country with the best “infrastructure” for business, manufacturing, and lifestyle on the planet.  Water, Electricity, Sewage, Roads, Communications, WHAT ELSE? Oh YES, EDUCATION SYSTEM and Freedom to work as hard as we want.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

(OP)
A major item that makes the United States uncompetitive is the cost of health care. The United States has no national health care system, whereas, all other industrialized countries do. I’m surprised that this has not yet been mentioned in this forum.

A large portion of labor costs is health care costs and they are rising rapidly. This explains the automobile assembly plants in Windsor, Canada (across the river from Detroit).

Health care is a larger cost factor than environmental regulations. As health care costs soar, the “playing field” will become more and more out of level. United States production costs are high and rising faster than the costs of other nations.

Since the health care industry has a stranglehold on the politicians, I don’t see a solution.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

ietech wrote "I think it is a "No Brainer" that regional cost of living is a major factor in the determination of fair wages."

Hmm. You really don't 'get' globalisation, do you?

If I need a widget designed, and it can be treated as a black box design, then frankly does it make any difference to me which country it is designed in? All I see is spec+money=design. The cost of living of the designer does not enter into the equation.

If I were running a publicly listed company I am duty bound to use the shareholder's funds as efficiently as possible. Otherwise I can and should be sued.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

IETECH,

"the phrase "Level Playing Field" is used. The phrase is directed to the issue of fair business and employment practices of competing industrialized nations."

Since your arguement is everyone should have the same rules, is it your arguement that USA has the highest standard of rules.  Most European countries have higher environmental rules than the USA.  So are you willing to raise the cost even higher for US companies so it is fair for companies in Europe?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs



I've yet to hear a proper explanation of how globalization of the economy is going to help the US worker (blue collar and white collar). Until it is explained to me in an understandable format, I will continue to be against outsourcing of jobs to other countries. The workers in other countries are not US citizens and do not vote in US elections. The people in the US (workers) should be the ones who count to the leaders of the US government. Perhaps the best solution to the plight of the US worker is to eliminate soft money given to politicians and parties by corporations.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

EddyC:

Excellent --- I must give a star for that. The U.S. gov’t should take care of the homeland first and foremost. All soft money from special interest groups should be outlawed.

Scorpio7:
I noticed your reference to the Sacramento River. Do you live in Sac. CA?

Greg:
Hmmm --- Yes I do “get” globalization --- it’s very hard to miss it since it’s being shoved down our throats. Admittedly, I am an isolationist (maybe that’s too extreme) but it really bothers me that we spend U.S. taxpayer’s dollars to assist others to grow while our own home is slowly crumbling around us in every aspect of a successful society.

I’m not sure if you grew up in America --- but to some one who has grown here since 1943, watching this happen is disheartening to say the least. It’s much like seeing vandals destroy a brand new car with a sledge hammer and the cops (our gov’t) turns their head or worse assists in the destruction.

DannyM:

Healthcare costs are a major contributor, a very good point that I certainly agree with.

This is but another example of special interest groups contributing to the demise of a great nation for the sake of shareholders; the same shareholders that Greg Locock would be duty bound to protect. Greg's position is certainly reasonable from a businessman’s perspective, but as a nation we are not obligated to shield shareholders from any risk that they voluntarily take.

QCE:

I’m not sure you’re correct regarding environmental laws being stricter in Europe than in the U.S., but it is irrelevant since we are not losing too many jobs to European countries. Most of our jobs are scooting off to Asian and Middle Eastern nations. To make matters worse, immigrants from these same countries fill good positions within our own borders.
Are they more qualified than Americans???--- I really don’t know. If they are so good at what they do why don’t they stay at home and help develop their own country.

As far as costs rising due to additional or stricter environmental laws -- that will happen anyway if the Greenies have their way.

Have a Great Day folks

ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

"To make matters worse, immigrants from these same countries fill good positions within our own borders.  Are they more qualified than Americans???---"

Actually if they immigrate to the US they are Americans.  Aren't 99% of the people in America immigrants??


RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

QCE

No, not all immigrants in the U.S. are citizens. Yes America was started on the backs of immigrants, and the following generations developed and helped her continue to grow as america grew so did the culture here and thus you started getting what we call Americans now. Probably unknown to you but there are many natural born American Citizens (probably uot number the immigrants) who know nothing of the previous cultures that helped create the successes and failures of this country. Do those who are natural citizens deserve no voice from your point of view?

I expressed many things in my previous post -- is this the only thing you could find wrong with it? Please disect the previous posts statements thoroughly. I really would be interested to see how you respond to all of the issues.

Do you have any suggestions for improving the way we do things here so we can keep our jobs.

I'm not surprised by your limited and flippant response to the issues raised in this thread --- it kinda fits with your other comments.

"In reality if everyone was even we would have the "world-average" type of standard of living.  I'm thinking mud hut with a bowl of rice a day for food."

"I also think the USA should lower environmental standards.  If we pollute more we will have more jobs and more money."

"That would be great!"

QCE



Have a Great Day

ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Ietech,

I'm not trying to pick on you, I was replying to the quotes you directed at me.  

This thread is based on losses in engineering jobs.  I believe the job losses you refer to are a bit exaggerated and job losses are a weak excuse for removing environmental standards that are in place.  These laws are not just in place because of small interest groups, many are in place because they improve the quality of the environment and are backed by top scientists not just uneducated "greenies".  Are you trying to suggest that the Bush admin is munipulated by the "greenies" and not by big business and industry?  

I also disagree with the idea that it is okay for Europeans to come to America and work but not for Asians.  The immigrantion rules make it easy for engineers to come to America.  These people are just following the same dreams as my ancestered followed when they can to America.  

I don't see such a bleak view for engineering jobs in America and I don't like it being used as an excuse to step back in development.



RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Congrats Greg on being tipster of the week.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

While there is no shortage of engineers wanting to work, all too often they are qualified in the wrong disciplines. For example, in Europe there is an alarming gap in computer programming skills. This is a failure of government in providing and encouraging the right sort of education. SO while many engineers are looking for work you will see governments seriously considering special arrangements to allow in people with the necessary skills. India is particulary well suited to fill this need, for example. Now you have to make a choice. If you don't invite these skills in, then the industry that needs them will go to where they are. This is happening all the time. Next time you ring directory enquiries you may think that it is still your local exchange but you could be talking to someone in Romania who speaks english and has a directory. Some things are all too easy to shift. Don't make it easier by only looking at it from one side. Think about the downside. This brings me back to a previous comment, when you have engineers with no work and industries looking for skills, what is needed is a better way to retrain exisiting people. It also helps if governments have crystal balls (or just ...no, better not say that) and could forecast education needs more accurately and do something about it.
To me it is quite immoral when the UK Government recruits nurses from the philipines, for example, because the Philipine community invested in training nurses, not so they could go and enjoy a better life elsewhere but so they could improve their own lot. Does any one ask what they do when all their nurses go off to the UK?
So there are many moral issues around every question. I asked before, are we lumping engineers together in one pot or should we be looking to see which are the jobs at risk?
An earlier commment on child labour struck me as a bit simplistic also. We have to beware of imposing our own moral standards on others. I have no problems with buying some products from countries where they use child labour if i know that the alternative for the chilid is that his family has no income at all. What is better? learn a trade and a skill that helps him to live and his family and know that he can help build a better future for his decendents, or stop buying sneakers when i have no idea what he will do instead?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

jmw

You have no idea about the conditions of child labour, and the reasoning behind it. I suggest you choose the topics you defend a little more carefully.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Mabn,
please read exactly what i said, not what you thought i said.
I didn't say i agreed with child labour per se but what i said is that in some cultures and economies the alternatives are sometimes worse.
I don't see it as the status quo either. If you look at everything else and take it all together you will see that part of the problem being addressed in this thread is why jobs are going overseas. It is because they can be done overseas. It won't take forever for standards of living to improve in all countries.
Take a look at the industrialised countries and see how short a time ago child labour was prevalent with 16 hour 6 day working weeks and what we today consider terrible working conditions. One Mill owner worked out that the children working on the looms walked around twenty miles a day. This isn't the dark ages, this is the 19th century. In those times and in those circumstances there were two choices, work or starve. That child labour no longer exists is a moot point, even in these societies. It depends on where you draw the lines in your definitions. Many of us don't have to look too far back to know that we enjoy good eductaions because our parents went without. In the depression era in America to be poor and homeless, travelling around looking for itinerent work, everybody worked. Children as well. The same is true in Bitain at the same time and later. The poor families from Londons East End would add to their income by hop picking or fruit picking in Kent. Again, the whole family, the old and the young. I am saying that in living memory in some of the richest cultures on earth, child labour and a whole hots of other problems di exist and still do, to a degree. The streets of London aren't paved with Gold, the USA is a mythical land of opportunity. The world is a real place in which terrible things happen.
Child labour, poverty, starvation, malnutrition are unique to tht third world and weren't wiped out centuries ago. Poverty exists everywhere. Survival comes first. Some people still would rather work than not. Take away even that chance and you reduce families to starvation.
Unless you have an alternative.
If you have, tell us about it and tell us why there is still child labour if these countries have a good health care and un-employment scheme, a welfare state.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Some of those good intentions have caused disasters for the very people they intended to help. This is true of much of the work done to try and alleviate food shortages in third world countries. For example, take a look at the grain supplied to Indias seed crop. Next years harvest seemed a long way off when compared with a present hunger so most of it was eaten, this was unfortunate because it was treated with pesticides which caused even worse problems.
We would all like to see an end to child labour and any number of other ills in society but don't cut the lifeline when you have nothing to offer to replace it. Control it and eradicate in a controlled way.
Time and sensible concern will do more good than adopting. You don't get rid of problems by hiding them or taking the high moral ground. If the solution were easy, there wouldn't be a problem. But until we have solutions, don't lets make things worse. If people can help alleviate the conditions, they should do so.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I agree with JMW on this issue. Child labour is a reality in these poorer countries, the alternative is quite simply starvation. Child slavery..now that's a completely different matter entirely. I also speak as someone who spent a great deal of my youth working on our home farm while my Dad was out working a 9 to 5 job (actually make that 9 to 8), 7 days a week.

You know I could never see what was all that wrong with prison labour in China either. Let prisoners contribute to their own keep, learn a useful skill aswell.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

IETech,

Yes, I like in the San Francisco Bay Area and do some boating.  

TO ALL Others:

I strongly believe in protecting the environment, equal rights, and all that other stuff our young men and women are currently dieing for in foreign lands.  But I have a strong dislike for people that use the law for their personal benefit or to promote an agenda like “zero growth” when that law was intended for a different purpose.  

We have too many lawyers in this country and too many of them have absolutely no ethics; they just want to make money.  They add significant cost to everything we do and provide very little benefit.  When I said that we should review environmental regulations and have sunset clauses in them I meant that for the benefit of society.  But, we have legislators that for the most part are lawyers and they want full employment for their profession.

Consider what could a lawyer do that is worth ten times per hour as much as an engineer?  

So more laws are not the solution to our problems.  If we all were not so lazy we would look at what the people we elect are actually doing and how they vote on issues.  That information should be available as public records.  But instead we just read the newspaper or watch TV and go for the guy or gal with the best looks and quickest wit.  We accept what we read in the papers or hear on TV as being correct yet if we have knowledge about a specific area we know that the article is inaccurate.  That coupled with the facts that the media wants to sell advertising, most reporters have no knowledge of science or economics, and one quarter of California’s population has not graduated from high school exacerbates the quality of information problem.  

I had done some traveling and there is no way we will solve the world’s problems with laws and regulations.  As others have said, child labor is a preferable alternative to starving to death.  Spend four weeks on Mainland China and you will understand what I am saying.  I cannot even comprehend what it must be like in the less developed areas of the world; a mud hut and a bowl of rice would be a luxury.

I firmly believe that we would not have the environmental rules and regulations we currently have in place if our country was not as wealthy as it currently is.  Here in Marvelous Marin County we have one of the slowest population growth rates in any metropolitan area and one of the highest costs of housing of any place in the world.  Why?  Because we have a bunch of wealthy people who have nothing else to do except fight growth and that is why home prices are so high.  

More later – go to go  … Oh yes I do have a distrust of lawyers and the media, they both profit by perpetuating controversy; engineers profit by solving problems.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Scorpio7.
Agree with you totally.  It's interesting to research where much of the superfund money goes.  If I remember correctly of the first 10 bilion ( early 90) over 90% went to lawyers.  Something less than 10% went to putting shovels in the ground and actually doing something.  It hasn't gotten any better.  Environmental protection and cleanup is mostly a pork barrel for Lawyers.  That's what happens when the goverment is run by lawyers.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

And who wrote and signed the constitution? a fair proportion were lawyers, i would guess. Anyone know for sure? Button Gwinnet, John Hancock and all....

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Speedy:

I agree that prisoner lobor is possibly a good thing. It should be limited to prisoners doing work for the government they offended, yes, they should be paid, but also be required to pay something for their keep, it's a good trade off for the training and aquiring of skills. They should not be free labor for private industry giving the benefiting private company an unfair competitive edge.


QCE:

I don't feel picked on, I just was referring to the way you picked one sentence and one question to focus on out of the entire post. Then responding with "Aren't 99% of Americans Immigrants". No 99% are not, I would say that most Americans come from immigrant stock somewhere in the personal history, but the majority of folks here are natural citizens and many without much knowledge if their ancestry.
 
I am not expressing opposition to Bush nor am I advocating the removal of environmental laws. I have said, all industrial countries should have to submit to the same laws equally in respect to manufacturing. Thus, the term level playing field. The Bush administration is not responsible for the existing environmental laws. Actually I applaud him on his position regarding oil drilling.

Yes, I do believe all politicians are highly influenced by, not only environmental groups, but religious, business, manufacturing, and especially insurance lobbies. I believe I addressed some of this in my other posts.

Where did I say that we should allow Europeans but not Asians? I read my previous posts again and am unable to find that statement. If it there I retract it. I think all people should be able to VISIT here, but the jobs should go to "Qualified Americans" FIRST. Yes, an exhaustive effort should be made to find American talent first. If there are no folks who are already citizens, either naturalized or by birth, then hire alien talent. Absolutely no jobs should be sent offshore -- for any reason.

QCE -- "Thank you" for sharing some of your complete thoughts and opinions, although, I dissagree with you in many cases I appreciate it when you give more than one critical sentence and no explanation or example of the criticism. Sorry for the "Greenies" label, it's not a good way to communicate.

All:
To those who defend or rationalize child labor. Yes, you are right it does exist and the reasons stated in previous posts are correct. But, the child is merely exploited to benefit the employer, not enhance the childs life. When the first child dies he/she is replaced with another, who is also just to be used until he/she dies.

This is a multi-faceted problem including: economics, cultural, government, religion, poverty, greed. Yes, an unfortunate reality that will never go away. BUT WE AMERICANS AND OUR GOVERNMANT SHOULD DEMAND THAT COMPANIES USING THIS DISPICABLE PRACTICE BE BANNED FROM DOING BUSINESS IN THE U.S. Oherwise we are just as guilty a participant, by omission of protest.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Sorry --- the link posted above is incorrect

Please try this one:

Thread730-69591

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

ietech, I'm not sure you're aware that the thread you referenced is 5 months old.  I bumped it by adding a post at the end.  Regardless, are you referring to the article Rhodie linked to?

For those who would like a little info on child labor, go to the following link...
http://www.hrw.org/children/labor.htm

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Funnelguy -- Yes I am aware of that --- I am really trying to see if anyone thinks tht this stuff is beginning to become a reality and how others on this thread feel about it. There are folks participating in this thread who might have missed it.

After reading it in this time frame I tend to agree with your assessment of the original post. That's why I included several ????? at the end of my previous comment.

Thsnks for the link --- I will have a chance to review it tomorrow morning.

ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Guys, maybe because it's a new year and I get all sappy and sentimental.

But as a Christian and it doesn't matter what your faith is, you hate to see poverty and starvation worldwide. On one hand, I'm sure some of the big whigs in the US that outsourced jobs use that as justification for screwing their fellow countrymen. I mean they can always go to that village in a 3rd world country that's making widgets for them and feel like they made a contribution.

But what truly is the answer? Should we shun materialism all together?

Let's be honest, materialism is a big problem in every country. We always want things that are bigger, more expensive and better than our friends, co-workers and neighbors.

My advice. Find a simple wife (I need to practice what I preach here) or husband, create a simple life and work hard. There will always be enough for those who give back more.

Let's give up the glamourous notion that we are better than others, and try to help others. Nothing but the greatest spiritual and financial wealth will result.

Now go ahead flame away.....

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Funnelguy:

Thanks for the link --- I have read it thoroughly, and I am even more appalled than I have ever been.

To reiterate my position "The U.S. should allow no products or services from companies who participate in this activity to be imported to this country".

I would especially include American companies who take advantage of child labor in their off-shore facilities. I have no proof but suspect there are American companies doing this.  

We should not engage in ANY trade with countries that are aware of and support this within in their borders and do nothing to eliminate it.

Thanks

ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

jmw writes:

"And who wrote and signed the constitution? a fair proportion were lawyers, i would guess. Anyone know for sure? Button Gwinnet, John Hancock and all...."

Based on the only document I have seen that those who may have been lawyers signed I do not believe that their intentions were dishonerable, litigious or greedy. I think these folks had a basic sensibility for the good of all people especially in our newly found country.

Scorpio7 --- BJC
I certainly agree with the basic tone of your posts and definately do not think Lawyers or worth more than engineers, on the contrary. I would say engineers contribute far more to a successful society than most lawyers could even dream of.

I believe, many lawyers, (not all or even large percentage) heve a very different agenda. Maybe greed, ego, power --- who knows what motivates folks these days. I'm sure there are some honerable lawyers.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Earlier, it was asked how many lawyers signed the Declaration of Independence.  Of the 56 signers, 24 were lawyers.  I "asked Jeeves", he knew.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

SteveBraune and JMW
How many "majors" were availabel to educated men 200 +  years ago?  Law, Philosophy and Divinity and maby a couple of other areas.  No engineering, no business, no agriculture etc.  Learned men studied law. Check the Yale catalog for 1750-60, there were about 400 students and not a lot of options for study.
My point was that the leagal system has evolved apart from the justice system.  IF yolu think there were a lot of lawyers in the constitutional conventions check out todays congress.  They always seem to make sure legislation has enough complexity to assue a few lawyers are needed.
Doy your own research on the Superfund act, OSHA, Endangered Species Act etc. You'll find a lot of it is make work for lawyers.  
The men who signed the constitution were learned men of principal, I wonder how many of them would have studied law if they had the options availabe now in higher education.
 A lot of work may be going offshore just because we have a litegious inefficient system.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

BJC,
I have no idea how many majors were available 200+ years ago, my alma mater course book doesn't go back that far.  However, I am under the impression that many of the signers were truly Renaissance men.  Men of great learning in many disciples.  For example Tom Jefferson was a lawyer, architect, writer, inventor, business man, politician, etc, etc.  Ditto, guys like Ben Franklin.  I'm sure self study was part of it, but they must have had some other sources.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Sorry I missed earlier threads on child labor.. This is a social stigma,and constitutionally banned in India. But the practice of child labor is prevalent in areas where there is illiteracy and poverty. They are used in farming, construction industry,textile industry, woolen garments and carpet making. Normally in traditional industries they are used. The choice is between employing a child labor or starvation. This goes on due to exploitation by local politicians and goons to promote their self interests.As long as they are illiterate,it serves the political bosses to get their valuable votes based on caste factor.

In my factory to overcome this I have provided free education to one child of an employee upto 10th grade.

Please go ahead and fire away!!,I shall run for shelter.

I shall not discuss about the role of foreign companies to employ child labor. This is not done directly but through associate firms.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

arunmrao,  why would anyone fire away at you?  You stated, "In my factory to overcome this I have provided free education to one child of an employee upto 10th grade".

Good for you, you are helping to provide a solution!  A star for that!

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

arunmrao,

India and the entire world need more good folks like you.

Respectfully

ietech

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

arunmrao,

It is efforts like yours that will eventually transform society for the better.

Regards,

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

But why is it more cost effective to send our jobs overseas?
It's simple. Because our government permits the rest of the world to hold lower standards than our own when it comes to workers' rights, environmental protection, permitting issues, and the civil legal system, all extremely costly and time consuming items associated with our (U.S.) society. One solution is to presssure the rest of the world to abide by our standards or we can lower our standards (not advisable). In theory it's a simple solution. Not one politician has (publicly) addressed these issues! But our politicians already know this, don't they? So why aren't they doing anything about it? Prediction: the next U.S. presidential candidate who campaigns on these issues publicly will be voted in as our next president.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

"Prediction: the next U.S. presidential candidate who campaigns on these issues publicly will be voted in as our next president."

I do hope so, but we must all remember it takes a massive amount of money to make oneself heard.  MNCorporate contributions often "quiet" this issue, which consequently leaves us watching Presidential debates that partisianly argue over who is responsible for recent mistakes rather than who will fix them.  

http://www.tradealert.org is a great source for information on this issue.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I think you'll find most environmental and OHS controls are cost neutral, when viewed across the entire country, when things like health costs and quality of life are taken into account.

I /know/ that in the case of industrial injuries at the company I work for it costs us less to install safety rails (etc etc) than it used to cost us in lost time, quality and compensation. Pretty cheap way of reducing costs.

I don't know how much US industry thinks it costs to meet 'excessively stringent' standards, but those regs are imposed by the US voting public via its elected representatives.

I wouldn't mind betting that it costs US industry far more to pay its employees to the level to which they have become accustomed, rather than what they can justify in terms of productivity.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Beanbag,
"our government permits the rest of the world to hold lower standards than our own" , "One solution is to presssure the rest of the world to abide by our standards"

I am not even sure how to reply to such pompous statements.

I feel like I have been trasported to the future were the USA rules the world.  I can't believe the USA would let other countries operate with out their permission.  Maybe the USA should invade and put a puppet government in place?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Beanbag,
"Because our government permits the rest of the world to hold lower standards.."

I will question any wisdom which almost means to say that the poverty, lower standards of living, poor medical facilities, child labour etc. are an option chosen by the "third world" to be cost effective. If you mean so, it sounds ridiculous. The poverty in third world is a harsh reality. If your government suddenly decides to eradicate it, and force a higher standard on us, it will be all a welcome move. But let us not live in a fool's paradise.

Let this be also known that all standards, be those of living or environmental, have time as a basic element. By time, I mean the development. We are almost 50 to 100 years behind our developed friends. Your 21st century norms applied to a country still in 19th or 20th century does not impress me because our issues are different.

These are just two sides of the same coin - one is poverty, other is cost-advantage. Seeing only one, and brushing off the hands from another is not humane.

"I wouldn't mind betting that it costs US industry far more to pay its employees to the level to which they have become accustomed, rather than what they can justify in terms of productivity." - The truth is staring you at your face.


RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Flame and QCE, look at Beanbag's very next statement, "One solution is to pressure the rest...".  Obviously Beanbag understands that the US does not rule or subjugate the rest of the world.  Those types of ambitions are left to the United Nations and the IMF.  We do, however get the blame when another country decides to eradicate its rain forest for the production of beef for McDonalds.  True?

GregLocock, your statement, "I don't know how much US industry thinks it costs to meet 'excessively stringent' standards, but those regs are imposed by the US voting public via its elected representatives." is a bit oversimplified.  There are many agencies in the US government that do not directly or immediately bend to the will of the voters.  These agencies coupled with an activist judiciary branch of our government routinely fly in the face of the will of the voters.  Sometimes the only way of taming "outlaw" agencies is to simply cut funding to them through Congress.  This has been done in the past to tame both OSHA and the IRS.

One thing is for certain.  Computer chip manufacturers had little to fear from either OSHA or a labor union's lawyer when they employed pregnant women in their facilities in Mexico.  Cost neutral?  Really?
 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Bush: Hello, can you tell your people to quit living in those poor conditions and tell them to move into bugaloo's.

Musharraf: Who is this?

Bush: This is your leader George Bush.  I had some complaints from some engineer's living in the USA, that they could hardly make their payment on their new Hummer's.

Musharraf: What are you talking about?

Bush: Just listen I told these engineer's that I would tell all countries to start living by our US standards to get reelected.

Musharraf:Umm.

Bush: Okay, just make sure all your people start living by US standards.  I gotta go phone China and India.  Talk to ya later.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

This thread is six months old now.

How many of you have lost a job overseas?

I'm still working. I'll check back in six more months.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

The "law of capitalistic entropy", or, the "law of diminishing middle class", as I like to call it, seems to be in effect doesn't it? But then again, it has been this way since the dawn of mankind. There have been some blips throughout history when the middle class prevailed but with the current global state affairs, where is the middle class now heading? I don't drive a Hummer and I don't know anyone else who does. I see a few on the road every now and then and I'm betting they aren't engineers. Perhaps they are global outsourcers? My wife and I, combined, work approximetly 90 hours a week so that we can live in a safe neighborhood for the next 15 years or so before it becomes too unsafe and its time to move again. I want nothing more than the standard of living in all countries to be raised, not just the U.S. Why are so many people against this? Oh well, I'm just happy to see so many people beginning to discuss this subject. We need to be optimistic.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

flame and qce,
The main reason we are not able to compete globally here in the US is the playing field. Simply, it's not level. We have some of the most restrictive environmental, labor, and safety regulations in the world. Don't bother to tell me that China is even close, been there, seen that. We cannot use (cheaper) harmful chemicals that they can. We cannot dismiss an employee simply because they are old and not as fast as they used to be, they can and do. We cannot dismiss an employee simply because they are handicapped and not capable of doing a full production job, they can and do. We cannot use solvent based paints, or styrofoam with the same chemicals they can. These make them both higher quality and cheaper. All of these things add costs that we cannot control.
This past fall, my company was the lead company in an ITC lawsuit that was successful in applying a 24% tariff on competing goods from China and Malaysia. Ten days later, we were approached by these same companies to build their product here. They (President and CEO) made the comment that only the tarrif brought them to us. Why were we successful? They were dumping goods on the US market at below cost. It was proven with documented fact. Will the cost to the consumer go up? Only slightly, you see Walmart was taking all of the profit anyway.
The statements I have made above are known as fact to me and not conjecture. They are the result of conversations with production managers, materials managers, etc.. in Chinese facilities. As to the strictness of regulations, I am aware that Europe has even more restrictive regulations, but then again they really only compete with themselves because of that situation, and the tariffs they have imposed.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I think part of the problem is also related to the US tax structure. We do not have a value added tax (VAT) , and instead rely heavily on employee income tax to fund the gov't.

In the case of european countries that rely  strongly on VAT's, regardless of where the item is fabricated, the act of selling the item raises tax revenues via the VAT, and these taxes are used to fund the social welfare programs. In the case where a country does not have a VAT, the social welfare programs are financed soley by employee income taxes, so the purchase of a produce fabricated overseas does not significantly contribute to support such programs. In the limit where all products are produced in some other countyr ( which the US is rapidly approaching)  the effect on the ability to fund such programs is magnified.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

profengmen:
How many of you have lost a job overseas?

Your post implies that no body has lost jobs to overseas alternatives, or that the problem is blown out of proportion.

75,000 people in S.Carolina in the textile industry would hog tie you upon hearing your question.

I just last December quit a manufacturing job that will be eliminated in 7 months to relocate somewhere in China.  The Fortune 500 company I worked for calls the moves "strategic relocating".  They insult my intelligence.

If you check my pervious posts, you will find I was bitter and sensitive about this subject before the news broke in my personal situation, but I am out of breath and indifferent with regards to it now.  There is very little that my efforts will contribute toward in "fixing" this problem.  This country is just waiting, almost begging, for a big screw job by the Chinese government.    

I feel extremely blessed to have found a suitable alternative within commuting distance, but am starting with lower pay, less benefits, and more uncertainty.    

Check back in six months.

 

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

profengmen, I compete daily against shops in India.  The only thing keeping work in my shop is quicker turn around and a perception of better quality.  I have a previous customer who will only contract drafting work through an agency in India.  This is through top management edict.  The ability of the contract house to understand the product and design and drawing standards is of no interest to the beancounters behind this decision.  I would have more work at better rates without these situations.

Now, arunmrao, don't get upset with me picking on India.  I harbor no ill will towards you or anyone trying to improve their position.  India happened to be involved in these 2 examples, but it could just as easily have been China, Mexico, Malaysia, et al.

davefitz, thank you for that post.  VAT sounds much nicer than tarriff.  What a simple and direct concept.  Sort of like a national sales tax.  Implementation of VATs in the US would go a long way towards helping our infrastructure with funds lost to overseas outsourcing.

Rhodie, good luck.  I wish you well.  

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

rhodie,
My post "Implies" nothing. It was a factual statement, a relevant question, and a comment.

75,000 people in S.Carolina in the textile industry would hog tie you upon hearing your question


That's fine. I'm not asking the question to 75,000 "people". I'm asking ENGINEERS. Besides what's wrong with asking a simple question? I've been in S. Carilina a lot, the people there don't seem to be that unreasonable.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

To beanbag:

first of all I have no ill will toward those of other countries seeking higher standards of living, but between you and me, the rest of the world can not and will not reach the living stardard of the USA -- the "medium" will be somewhere in the middle:  much higher for the rest of the world, and much lower for the USA --

we are bemoaning the fact that corporate America has forgotten that (currently) it is the American consumer keeping most of them afloat and they are essentially cutting their own throats because the American consumer will be without the jobs to continue contributing to their corporate pockets -- but also, between you and me, most coporate officers don't care, because they have already lined their pockets and can live well off for the rest of their lives for what they have already put away, or will put away in the next 5 years...  [I've rubbed shoulders with enough "officers" to know that it isn't the stockholder who comes first in fulfilling their corprotate duties...]

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

funnelguy, I have no issues with your comments. The only message we get is that you are not keen to undertake low end jobs,manufacturing is expensive due to high labor costs and environment laws are stringent.   Last week I got an order from US company to supply castings. The rates are not good excepting that the business is regular.

VAT is a good concept to generate revenue.We in India are also on the verge of implementing VAT(this is a IMF recommendation).Presently we have a system which taxes at every stage thus making it expensive for the consumer.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

profengman,

I am an engineer that lost a job due to China.  One of the companies major customers stipulated that all products must have an engine supplied by China.  This was a stipulation from there Customer....guess who.....WAL-MART!!!

Due to that stipulation, 1/4 of our business in that division was sent to China.

Fortunately the company I am with now found out, and knowing my work from machining some fixturing for me took me on right away.

Alan M. Etzkorn  
Product Engineer
Nixon Tool Co.
www.nixontool.com

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Mecheng13,

OK... that's one.

I do suspect that WalMart only cares about cost. I doubt they Specified that the "engine" (on whatever) had to come from a specific country. WalMart is another issue though, one which I hope goes down the tubes.

Glad you were good enough to get noticed. Congrats on your new job.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

A group of engineers discussing what is essentially an economic topic….ever listen to economists discussing an engineering problem. Get the picture?

There doesn’t have to be a downside. A lot of the misunderstanding here is the believe that wealth is a finite thing. This I believe goes back to the days when it was, when wealth was tied directly to finite things such as land, gold, diamonds etc. To become wealthy, one had to take (steal) that wealth from someone else.

In the modern world wealth can be created from a simple idea. Take  Microsoft for example, started in a garage, no invasion of a foreign country.
 The reason economists strive for a free and open global market is because we all benefit...yes all of us, in the longterm anyhow.



RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

"Take, Microsoft, for example....no invasion of a foreign country"
What sort of invasion are you thinking about? It doesn't have to be military onslaught such as in Iraq. Economics are just as potent a weapon as guns. In fact, part of the cold war strategy was designed to lock Russia into a military arms race because that was a race the west thought it could win or mantain the balance; the objective was partly to deprive the Russians of the opportunty to develop their natural resources. Now, with no cold war, Russia is begining to develop those resources and watch out the West. AFter the last world war rebuilding Germany and Japan meant all new equipment while in countries like the UK they struggled on with the old equipment. I have been in a Russian refinery in Siberia that is over 100sqkm. installing the latest process instrumentation that at a stroke puts them ahead of most western refineries.
Microsoft is an invasive economic force. Looked at their software prices lately? do you know what share of the market they have? Win98 is officially dead and support ended (rumour has it that since 40% of installed OS is win98 they may have had a rethink about support) but effectively it means you can't go and buy a second hand PC and find win98 (legally) you have to buy a new winXP operating system.(Do a search for win98SE and see what i mean.
Microsoft has become a favoured supplier. College courses in the Uk in any computer subject you like demonstrate the microsoft stranglehold. Cpourses advertised as Web page design and internet skills don't actually teach you these skills, they are Microsoft product training courses.
Microsoft is an example of a monopolistic organisation. Their share of the market is higher than would be allowed if two companies wanted to merge. But then, that's protecting US jobs. If there were a level playing field here, where would US jobs be? frankly, my next computer will be a MAC. The only way to break the virtual monopoly micosoft has is for more people to make a non-lazy decision.
Economic warfare includes government policies such as embargos and boycots. Economic war may not involve the big bangs and the smart bombs but it can be no less devastating for all that. Economic warfare has been with us about as long as conventional warfare. No guns doesn't mean no war and no pestilence. Try telling third world countries desperate for affordable medicines that economics are loaded against them.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

profengmen,

According to my boss the customer specifically stated that Wal-mart told them, they would no longer accept go-karts with anything other than chinese engines on them.

On a side note...if you are in the market for a go-kart, I would recommend nothing but Manco Machines...the Dingo Line.

Was in the go-kart industry for 8 years and still haven't seen a better looking or safer design.  And built in NE Indiana.

Alan M. Etzkorn  
Product Engineer
Nixon Tool Co.
www.nixontool.com

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Microsoft started in a dorm room and has invaded the world.

Engineers study economics in college. Economists don't study engineering.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Walmart has big relations with the powers of China, I am certain. Why else make that demand?
Wal-mart used to be a good store. Not that they have put everyone else out of business, the things that got them where they are (low prices, good quality, customer service) are going down hill since they do not have much competition any more. The same thing happens with many other industries, electrical especially.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

As I think I mentioned before, WalMart (if a country in itself) would be China's 7th largest trading partner... Too bad Walmart doesn't have China play by the same rules it requires some of its other suppliers:  like build warehouses and keep a supply on hand at the suppliers' cost until requisitioned for distribution (and I wouldn't be surprised that payment isn't forthcoming until the item is sold... (guess who is then responsible for the property taxes for the warehoused items??? China?)

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Hi to everyone involved in this thread, and we are a lot of people by now.

I think the thread has gone to ways really far out from the start point, even got stats on the lawyers signing your Constitution, which by the way has lasted more than any other that I might recall so it must not have been that bad.

Child labor is wrong and that has also been clearly stated as enviromental laws, which to me are really necesary to keep "Spaceship Earth" alive sustaining life for our kids.

But the original point is where are we going as engineers, well I think we are going ahead and we will be needed for the advance of all man kind, the problem is not where is engineering going but where are Engineers going, and that is the big question, our work is going to be requiered the problem is that it is going to be done, most probably, by a qualified guy in a low wage paying country and here is my own theory of what is going to happen to the US, Canada, Australia and European Comunity countries:

In the last ten or so years Argentina had a wage boom, they earned wages out of line with South American countries, fueled by a LOT of credit received from IMF, international Banks and so on, in the mean time they found it more "sensible" to import goods and stoped producing them, they once had about 10 different companies building machine tool equipment (lathes, milling mach, drills, etc) in these years mainly taiwanese and chinese machines were imported in very low import tariffs and costs so ALL went out of bussiness, (Sounds familiar to US buyers?, just browse the machinery catalogues and see where are those equipments built) suddenly the economy collapsed, why? the loaners stoped loaning more money and in weeks a country who had fed the world in WW II had kids diying of starvation while at the same time having bumper crops of grain, and exporting cattle and milk.
Well to make it short: The whole world has been lending money to the US and its partners and has been fueling a standard of living which is not proportional to what they have been producing, how? You guys live in the only country in the world that every time it needs money it only has to print more paper and call it US DOLLARS, thats why a woman living on welfare in a US city slum has more electrical equipment (TV, VCR, Fridge, A/C, etc) than most trained engineers in the third world, and that my friends IS NOT FAIR GAME, the payment received by a person should be proportional to its contribution to the economy and eventually the economic laws are going to make that happen and probably thats what is starting to happen now.
Eventually third world engineers are going to receive more payment and US engineers will find a way of getting more productive even if it means getting rid of all the "overhead" taht they have to carry right now.
As for the ones in Argentina they are back with their feet on the ground and starting from the ground up to raise its country, again.
I do not live in the US, really I like your country, travelled really a lot and had not one bad experience in those trips and the potenciall that you see everywhere is incredible, you don't see it because you are used to see it so it seems naturall to you, but belive me what you need is a really good shake out like FDR did with the New Deal, you have fallen sleep and don't know it.
Cheers to all.
SACEM1

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

I admire the patience of members going through this long thread. As I have an old computer,it is very slow and it takes a long time to open. My request is that if we can start a fresh thread,it will be convenient. There have been a great number of contributors and views presented ,I request the opinion and consent of the members to start a fesh thread. Perhaps danym who started this thread originally can start the new one.

Thanks.
Arun Rao

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

My 24Kbps phone lines and I second that motion!

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

"Washington, Jan 24: In the first Federal law against outsourcing, the US Senate on Thursday night passed a law barring doling out sub-contracts to India and other countries by American companies to cut their costs."

This news item might pacify the anxiety of most of my friends in this forum. I do not know how this might help engineering companies . The advocates of free world economy have now resorted to protectionist measures. A dichotomy truly symbolic of US government. This is turning too political so I better stop before I am flagged.

(No harm meant to anyone individually.)

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

Aint that just like politicians? This is a no-brainer. The legislation merely reflects what is already happening and thus offends no-one but they can be seen to be doing something "effective". A recent review found that some of the first companies outsouring overseas, in particular, call centres, were finding that while cheaper and quicker per call, the accuracy of response was less good and hence, due to the protracted nature of handling each complaint/enquiry, it was costoing more.
In other words, economic strikes again. Left alone two things might happen, overseas call centres might get better and legislation would be effective, or economics will see a reduction no matter what the politicians do.
Of course, one swallow doesn't make a spring.
Now how about the politicians either stay out of it and let history run its course or try and do something useful.

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

arunmrao,
I would be upset, too, if I lived in India.

I doubt that there was ever a time in the history of the US when we were not protectionist to some extent.  Certainly not in the last 50 years.  Can anyone point me to an example of a nation with absolutely no trade barriers?  Where a truly level playing field exists with zero governmental intervention?  Every government should seek to improve the economic condition of its people.  Including your government.  I think I may have made that statement about a dozen times on these forums.

I certainly will not flag your post.  I prefer open discussions so all interested parties can make up their own mind based on a wide variety of viewpoints.

I have not read the news story.  Could someone provide some links or more details?

RE: Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs

(OP)
I have enjoyed the interesting discussion presented in this thread. However, I agree with arunmran and others that it is getting too long.

I have started a new thread "Engineering is Going Overseas II". Let's continue the discussion there.

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