Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
(OP)
Another spin-off from the "Boot camp" thread in this forum --
It's pretty clear that by and large, most engineering fields have a low percentage of females. In my experience, the percentage gets lower as the people get older. In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore.
Some specific topics to discuss:
-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?
-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)
-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?
In my area, there's a "Saturday Academy" with specific classes to address some of this; there's also an organization called AWSEM for middle school girls (I'll have to post the links later). Other ideas?
Cathy Biber
It's pretty clear that by and large, most engineering fields have a low percentage of females. In my experience, the percentage gets lower as the people get older. In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore.
Some specific topics to discuss:
-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?
-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)
-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?
In my area, there's a "Saturday Academy" with specific classes to address some of this; there's also an organization called AWSEM for middle school girls (I'll have to post the links later). Other ideas?
Cathy Biber
Biber Thermal Design
www.biberthermal.com





RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
To begin with, talking Barbie has to quit telling little girls that "math is hard".
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
LeAnne
BSEE
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I have one idea, stop the tokenism of women in business. I can not even tell you the number of women engineers I hired over the years. Their skill sets are the same as men, but their level of effort, willingness to listen, learn, and apply is better. Their client disposition is better. They were just a valued part of my teams. But they all left for companies outside of engineering because their positive attributes made them a prime candidates for pharmacutical sales, Industry managment, state regulatory agencies...etc....all careers that involve NO engineering but DO have quotas for women or have alterior motives for having women employed. They are removing some of the best talent I have yet to come across from the engineering business.....
In the vacuum they leave behind, no women are there to talk up their careers as engineers....
just my thoughts....
BobPE
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
AWSEM? I've never heard of them. Take Our Daughters to Work day has deteriorated into Take Our Children to work day. I do not have a daughter (my only offspring is male), but I would have preferred to see the day remain daughter-focused. I stopped participating in presentations when the focus for Take Our Daughters to Work Day changed to children from daughters.
My 12 year old niece wants to be an astronaut, but she's interested in marine biology, not engineering. She's at NASA's space camp this week in Huntsville, Alabama. This is her second year.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
http://www.engr.usask.ca/%7Ediscover/
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
A boy like that usually doesn't have a lot in common with his peers. I imagine it would be harder still for a girl.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Though, I must say, after I started this thread, I got to thinking about "why do we need gender equity?" In the end, I don't think it's about gender equity at all -- it's more about critical mass. Or maybe not even that -- maybe it's about some kind of comfort level. Nobody is going to pursue a career in which the work environment feels uncomfortable.
Women engineers out there, where are you on this comfort level in your workplace? What would lure you out of it?
I clearly don't have enough to do!!
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Were these colleagues from your undergrad days or your doctoral studies? (yeah, I checked your website
Oh yeah, and where'd you get the cool light saber emoticon???
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
True, Mattel did pull those Barbies fast, but it was not the Barbie but rather the pervasive stereotype that she reflected.
Imagine a talking Little Bill (my apologies to non-two-year-old parents--he's a 4-year-old African-American cartoon character) stating "Math is hard". No toy executive would dream of such a thing. Yet somebody (a group actually) thought that appealing to little girls with "Math is hard" would be accepted.
Society is telling girls that math is hard (for that matter, many Hispanics and African-Americans are given the same message). What more can we expect when such conditioning happens? Young women in general are not preparing themselves to be engineers.
It is sad, and a very difficult problem to fix...
Brad
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Let's face it; our noble profession has a serious image problem. Seriously, how many people know what an engineer does? Come on, admit it, how many times have you hear this at a party, "And I thought engineers only built bridges!”
It is terrible that the vast majority of our population does not know or even have a clue as to what an engineer does, but what makes things worse is that the stereotypes are painful:
"Engineers can't write."
"They are all a bunch of nerds."
None of our heroes are engineers. When was the last time you saw a movie in which the main character was an engineer? There are movies and TV shows about lawyers and doctors, but ours truly is the forgotten profession.
Why is it that when NASA does something great, the press says that it was "science that triumphed", but when there is an accident it is "engineering that failed"? Our media is ignorant when it comes to engineering.
No wonder there are so few girls interested in engineering.
Our society and our profession is poorer because of this.
-- How can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?
We must fix this image problem. Universities and Engineering Societies must do a better job of informing young high school students about our profession. Engineering can be a very interesting, challenging and rewarding career. People should be informed about this.
We need a TV show called "L.A. Engineering". No, I am not kidding.
-- Why do they drop out of engineering programs
because, like so many students they do not get to see the light at the end of the tunnel. If only our engineering programs had more "applied engineering" and "design engineering" courses that showed students that there is a reason for all the math and science, and that engineering can be fun.
An engineering program that has little emphasis on communication skills, (i.e. is designed for nerds) will only attract nerds to our profession.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I'm curious - would you women out there recommend engineering as a career for a young woman?
It seems to me that ladies in engineering have one advantage (presuming they're good) - they automatically stand out from the crowd just because of the relative dearth of female engineers.
I believe that standing out from the crowd is very significant in advancing a career.
The flip side is that I've heard many stories about the "glass ceiling", "old boys networks", etc. I've not witnessed these but don't know that I'd recognize them even if I did (I'd like to think I would but when it's not your reality it can be tough to see the subtleties).
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I knew several female engineering students when I was in school in the early years (freshman and sophomore years). Most of them did fairly well, and many of the ones that transferred out did so because they hated it. I also knew a few who did very well, hated it, and stuck with it anyway. Those women took non-engineering jobs when they graduated.
Consider the nursing profession. There are few male nurses (think of the movie "Meet the Parents"). I think the main reason for this is that there are few men interested in nursing.
I guess I am stating that most women, by their very nature, don't gravitate towards engineering, just as most men, by their very nature, don't gravitate towards nursing. There are certainly many exceptions, and I am certainly not implying that women can't be good engineers or that men can't be good nurses.
Having said that, I also agree that there are several barriers that make entering the engineering profession difficult for women. Just the fact that the profession is dominated by males makes things difficult. But I don't think that is the primary reason there are so few women in the field. Likewise, I'm sure there are some men out there that would like to be nurses but don't because of the high percentage of women in the field. But I don't think that is the main reason there are so few men.
My school had aggressive recruiting programs for women. Women were telephoned by professors while they were still in high school and were encouraged to apply. There were lucrative scholarship and grant opportunities. These things had little affect. Would they induce you to pursue a profession that you weren't interested in?
Haf
P.S. I agree that we as engineers should strive to educate the public about what engineers do and how they do it, but I don't think that has anything to do with the low number of women entering the field (lack of public knowledge should affect men and women equally).
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Our engineering programs? I think it needs to begin MUCH earlier - like in primary school. Kids, in general, do not seem interested in math or science - why? They don't learn application for it as they are learning the math or science in class.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Girls play with dolls. Boys play with action figures. Be honest. How many of you with boys disallowed your boy to play with dolls? But allowed action figures?
I don't think it is nature related. I think it is based on many moons of stereotypes...Historically, women who expressed interest in math & science were directed toward teaching. Up until WWII when women replaced men in the workforce, a very small percentage of married women worked outside the home. After the war ended, women were expected to leave the workforce opening jobs back up for soldiers returning from the frontlines to take care of home & hearth, raising a family, being Mrs. Cleaver.
Women who wanted to work post-WWII were like electricity for the most part - they took the path of least resistance. They became teachers, nurses, secretaries, assembly line workers,...Here & there, women bucked "the system" and went into engineering, became doctors, opted to work in construction, paving the way for later generations who wanted those careers.
Cultural change does not happen without growing pains and lots of fighting the changes along the way. While there is still room for growth, the work culture has changed dramatically over the past 5-6 decades. And, just consider technology advances we've seen in that same period.
We cannot expect the glass ceiling or gender career stereotypes to go away overnight.
Considering very few of the "Math is tough" Barbies made into the hands of kids, I do not think Mattel's snafu made any impact on the rate of females entering engineering programs. Besides, didn't you hear? Barbie dumped Ken for GI Joe - she liked his Jeep & there's just something about a man in uniform.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Remembering my last 6 years of school, there was so far :
1996/1997 : 22 students, all males
1997/1999 : 85 students, 3 girls
1999/2000 : 80 students, 3 girls
2000/2001 : 25 students, 1 girl
2001/2002 : 80 students, 2 girls
2002/2003 : 14 students, all males
How can we sayt their number is increasing? Maybe it is so in other fields of engineering, like electronics or computers, but it sure isn't in mechanical.
However, the few girls who were in my classes were on the top 10. They may be few of them, but they rule, they're hard workers and passionate. That's why I'd like to see more of them. Engineering has a strong image of a men work, I think it's time for a change. Women proved their excellence in many fields and there is no more need to show they equal men (or even go further) in all kind of jobs.
Maybe we just smeel of cheese
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Medicine, law, business, etc. don't have the same problem attracting qualified women that engineering does. And women can be excellent engineers.
Partly, this is cultural. Typically, women didn't become engineers. At the time when women were breaking from traditional (and usually lower paid) roles, the other professions were paying better and offered better career paths than engineering. Capable, ambitious women, not lead by stereotypes, picked what they thought was the best choice of profession. Engineering’s problems with pay, job stability and social recognition are getting worse, not better. The alternate career paths are becoming even more attractive. Until our profession improves its financial and social status, we cannot expect to attract the best and brightest men or women.
Another factor that either keeps women out of engineering or causes them to drop out is the nature of many engineering jobs. Women are and have always been the "anchor" of the family. Unanticipated travel, unexpected overtime, layoffs, job searches and out-of-town jobs are more disruptive to the family if they happen to the mother. Other careers are either more stable or provide a sufficient income stream to provide quality care for the children.
I'm sorry if anyone finds what I've said offensive. It is my honest opinion
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Good point, there are more female engineers (percentage wise) in Eastern Europe. I can only conclude that we have a serious problem in North America.
leanne "I think it needs to begin MUCH earlier - like in primary school. Kids, in general, do not seem interested in math or science - why? They don't learn application for it as they are learning the math or science in class."
Good point, an Australian friend once told me that they had engineering design classes in high school! But, I do agree with you, we must do something about primary school math and science education. Perhaps add some more "applied" science, and take in to account that children have different learning styles.
cbiber "In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore."
Same here, but most of my female colleagues have all moved on to bigger and better things (management, biomedical, entrepreneurial etc.). In fact I would say that many of the smartest people in my class are no longer engineers. Once again, our profession has a serious problem... why can't we keep the smartest people?
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I'm curious about the percentage of women engineers with advanced degrees. The percentage of women in MS programs seemed even higher.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Hello all,
You may already know this, but just in case there are a couple of organizations that encourage young women to choose engineering as a career.
In the United States
http://www.societyofwomenengineers.org/
In Canada
http://www.cemf.ca/
Cheers,
Joseph
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I do not believe that we will ever have gender equality in our society and workplaces until males can join traditionally female dominated job classifications without fear of any discrimination or repercussions. It is socially acceptable for females to be doctors, not males to be nurses; it is acceptable for females to be lawyers not males to be clerical.
My wife is a nurse and her work partner is a dietitian, a graduate of a Home Economics program. A few years ago her partner was away on a maternity leave and the replacement was a newly graduated male dietitian. He was continually subjected to gender based discrimination throughout his university and work career. Both males and females often called his sexuality into question. He had a lot of trouble getting a job, in spite of slightly above average marks and an easy going personality, he was one of the last hired out of his class and for only a term position.
While the university had some good programs to encourage women to join traditionally male dominated facilities, he received some of this discrimination from the hands of female facility.
My point is that the gender equality has to go both ways for it to be anything other than a sham.
He did get the last laugh. He was a 6’3” athlete type who ended up as the team dietitian for a pro sports team.
I have no problem with women engineers; the last technician I hired was a female. I just have a problem with the lack of support for males who want to enter traditionally female dominated jobs.
And now for the obligatory joke, I heard this as a true story. (It was told at a retirement event so take it with a grain of salt, but it does make a good story.)
At a construction start-up meeting there were several representatives from the owner, the consultant and the contractor. Most of the participants knew each other from past projects. One of the new participants was a young woman who did not participate in the meeting, just sat at the back and took a lot of notes.
At the conclusion of the meeting the contractor went up to the head of the consultant delegation and said “Good idea, Joe, to bring a secretary to take notes and get the minutes out faster”
To which Joe responded: “I’m sorry Sam, I’d like you to meet Sally, She is our newest engineer and will be looking after this project for us.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I have no doubt that the story is true having been in similar situations. I've also been asked to make coffee for "the guys". They only ask once. I don't drink coffee you do NOT want to drink coffee I've made, trust me on that one....
I get my
When my son was born nearly 20 years ago, my doctor was a female & my assigned nurse was male. They were a great team.
At one time, clerks and secretaries were male and there was no dishonor in having that job. There should be nothing dishonorable about it now.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
It’s just that it’s not always socially accepted. Gender should not matter for career and employment proposes.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
"Gender should not matter for career and employment purposes."
Yes, yes, yes.
How do we get there?!
Why aren't there many girls in high school math classes?
How do we keep everyone's options open long enough for them to grow into a career choice? Goodness knows, I didn't always want to be an engineer. I just picked ME because it was the "most general" -- it would expose me to various possibilities before I had to make a choice.
If I were to do it over, I'd probably opt for Chemical Engineering, and curiously, at my alma mater, that major has often been close to gender-equal. Nobody needs to have previous experience fixing lawn mowers or motorcycles to understand the stuff -- everyone has to learn everything from the ground up. (Kid chemistry sets notwithstanding.)
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
In spite of many programs within her field that encourage gender-equity (most notably Title IX-mandated directives), true equity won't be relized as long as the "good-ol boys" equate females with secretaries. My impression is that her profession is about a generation behind engineering, but her experience made me sensitive to female engineers' situations.
Brad
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
cbiber, I had would have preferred chem E, but there were no schools offering it in Dallas & at that time, I could not relocate to attend college. So, I majored in EE instead.
Rick, my use of the term dishonorable was correct linguistically
dis·hon·or (see dictionary.com)
n.
tr.v. dis·hon·ored, dis·hon·or·ing, dis·hon·ors
dis·hon·or·a·ble
adj
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I apologize if I was too oblique in making my point. I was trying to reinforce that your experience is not unique for many women in male-dominated fields (engineering and otherwise).
Brad
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Thanks for the clarification; I thought I was being slammed for excessive verbosity (a common sin on my part).
Brad
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
A few have written that engineering suffers from an image problem. I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but I fail to see why this discourages women in specific from engineering (unless you are suggesting that women are more concerned with the image of the profession they choose than men are).
Many have also written that they think that the small number of women in the field discourages women from entering the profession. I think this plays a role, but I don’t think this is the main issue either. Years ago, there were few women working, period. Over time, as our culture started to change, more and more women started working. The percentage of women in nearly all professions started to rise. It also rose (and continues to rise) for engineering, but at a much slower rate. Why is this?
There are also a lot of posts that contend that the stereotypes set and perpetuated by society deter women from entering the profession. I don’t agree with this either. For example, one stereotype is that women aren’t good at math or science. This simply isn’t true. Percentage wise, there are many more women in accounting and financing than in engineering (that takes care of math). Similarly, percentage wise, there are many more women in biology, chemistry, and medicine than in engineering (that takes care of science). So what makes engineering different?
I also disagree that women are discouraged “by society” from entering engineering. Women engineers are not looked down upon at all, in my opinion (in contrast to male nurses or male secretaries, who are frequently ridiculed by society). Quite the contrary. Women are recruited by engineering schools more frequently than men. Scholarship and grant opportunities are abundant. Finding a job is generally not a problem.
A few of you have related stories about how women engineers have been assumed to be secretaries, etc. These stories are not unique to engineering. They are perpetrated by sexist individuals, and those same individuals exist in other professions as well. I suspect similar stories exist in which “engineer” is replaced by “lawyer,” “doctor,” “businessman” (or should I say person?), etc. In fact, in bradh’s story, our heroine was not an engineer.
I guess what I’m saying is that many of the reasons presented above for the low numbers of women in engineering are not unique to engineering. Women have overcome these same obstacles in other professions. So what makes engineering different?
Haf
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Engineering, as a profession, seems much more isolated than many others. Many of us spend many hours alone at our desks doing design or analysis. Very engaging but very little interaction.
My observation of the women in my life is that they tend to be more socially interactive than many men. They may prefer professions which offer more interaction like law, medicine, sales, management.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Men and women are different. Women tend to be more socialized. Men tend to be physically stronger. Women tend to learn languages faster. Women tend to be more emotional. Men tend to be more logical. These statements may bother some people, but I don’t think they are sexist comments. Sexist is when you use these tendencies to judge someone or to assume someone is incapable of performing a task.
In other words, just because men tend to be stronger than women, doesn’t mean that a woman can’t be a construction worker. Similarly, just because women tend to learn languages faster than men, doesn’t mean that a man can’t be a translator.
A few people noted above that the women engineers they worked with tended to be darn good engineers and had strengths that were apparently different than the male engineers they worked with. I don’t think those are sexist comments; however, I do think it would be sexist if one hired a female engineer under the assumption that she would have certain strengths or weaknesses, based solely on her sex. Understand the difference?
I know some may think it’s an “archaic” viewpoint (according to the “Boot Camp” thread from which this thread originated), but I stand by my claim that women naturally don’t tend to gravitate towards an engineering career. Frankly, I haven’t seen an argument that convincingly disproves this.
Haf
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I don't believe its the "interaction" that attracts them to the to other professions. They want a better return on their educational and work efforts. They don't want to feel under-appreciated and under-rewarded. "I DIDN'T SPEND 4 YEARS IN COLLEGE FOR THIS"
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Currently, our educational system and our profession are designed in such a way that they discourage many talented and intelligent women from joining engineering.
It is time that we call a spade a spade; this is clearly a form of discrimination.
Cheers,
Joseph
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
That being said, most of the women they hired were quality engineers.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Well I agree the ME department had a horrible ratio when I was in college (graduated 2002). But I also got a minor in materials engineering and was shocked when I sat down in a room predominantly female. But Materials had a reputation at my school of being easy and having the least amount of math. So that would go along with the whole math scaring away females theory.
I became an engineer because I was told I was smart and good at math so that would be a good choice. I was also great at english but I chose engineering couldn't think of anything besides teaching that I could do with english. I stuck with my major because all the other majors were for 'dumb people' (it may sound crude but it was my opinion at the time). And now I'm sticking with my job because of the money ;p.
My two other female ME friends took different paths. Both chose ME because they like math. One works making beer and using none of her engineering skills (more of a management type of job). She loves it and the money. Another is a secretary. She's just outta school and can't find a job. But she likes being a secretary because she makes money (though not a lot) and it's not stressful. She doesnt' handle stress well.
I think girls not liking math is definitely a factor but I can't fathom why a girl wouldn't like math as it's always been a breeze for me. Another factor is the whole 'girls are raised differently than boys' idea. I saw a Discovery channel type special where they watched how parents treated male and female children differently. They saw that they were more likely to help the girls with things (such as put together a toy) while boys were left more to themselves to figure it out. I think this could lead to a lot of girls dropping out of engineering because they're used to having their hand held and they consequently give up easily.
Also, when I was a kid I remember complaining to my parents about how boring girl toys were and how I wanted boy toys. Transformers and race cars morphed and did things but girl toys were just boring dolls that didn't have any complicated moving parts. That could also be a factor though I think that'll change because there are so many cooler toys for both sexes nowadays. Perhaps this'll help boost the female engineering population in a couple years.
So I guess I'm mainly blaming society and norms. But I feel like these things are breaking down, especially since the expansion of technology and the internet. I don't think they'll be such a big gap in future engineering graduates.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Barbie doll & GI Joe wars - our explosives were fireworks that are no longer available because kids used to blow off body parts accidentally on stupid.
my all-time favorite childhood toy was a Tonka Jeep with Air Force markings....I still have it....
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I did myself, and I still own a good amount of Lego bricks and I rarely refuse to built some stuffs with them when little sister ask for it
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I was so excited when my son (now 2) got his Duplos set. I'm working hard to keep him from putting stuff in his mouth, as I want him to graduate ASAP to Legos so I can "teach" him.
Of course, this is in no way connected to the fact that my younger brother sold MY Legos at a garage sale.
And leanne, you're dating yourself, especially with the "Lincoln Logs" reference
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I was working for a company that makes lawn care equipment. There was a newly-hired fresh-from-college woman engineer, Kris, who asked for my help with a design problem, a mechanism for adjusting the height of a roller.
She had a pretty good concept, and she just wanted my help fleshing it out. When we were finished, she asked if I could sit in while she presented the design to her boss.
When her boss started reviewing, I was totally shocked by what happened. He proceeded to cross out everything with a red pencil and draw his own version of how he thought the mechanism should be built. By the time the boss was done, he had come completely full circle and drawn exactly what we had initially presented.
Poor Kris was stunned. I was, too.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
The women who are able to enter engineering programs pursue it for a specific reason. They are motivated, and willing to do a lot of hard work to earn their respective degrees. What I don't understand is why anyone sees a problem with the number of women currently entering the profession. Are women discouraged from becoming engineers because of the image that it portrays? Is there a stigma associated with being a female engineer? I don't think so, but someone here may be able to enlighten me if that is the case. I believe that the factors mentioned in the previous threads show that men are more inclined to study engineering simply because it appeals to them more than it does to women. And there is nothing wrong with this.
Maui
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I don't agree with your first paragraph. Money is a factor that should affect both men and women equally.
I agree with your second paragraph, especially the sentence:
"I believe that the factors mentioned in the previous threads show that men are more inclined to study engineering simply because it appeals to them more than it does to women."
The question is, why does engineering appeal to women less than men? Is it "natural" or is it instilled by "society"? I guess you could argue that the nature of men and women is instilled by society to some degree, or maybe even to a large degree. The truth is, I don't know, and nobody else does either. The only way to really find out would be to do unethical experiments on men and women that have been isolated from society since birth.
Also, I suppose one could argue that even the pure "nature" of men and women (here I'm talking about the nature at birth unaffected by experiences in society) is determined by societies and norms of the past, which were passed on through genes.
You could go crazy thinking about this stuff!
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Hello Haf,
"A few have written that engineering suffers from an image problem. I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but I fail to see why this discourages women in specific from engineering."
An engineering program that has little emphasis on communication skills, (i.e. is designed for nerds) will only attract nerds to our profession.
Right now our profession attracts poor communicators, people with poor social skills, and people with little or no interest in leadership (i.e. nerds).
Yet what are profession needs is excellent communicators, and people with social skills and leadership qualities.
Gone are the days when an engineer would sit at his cubicle make a few calculations and only talk to two people per day. Today's engineers must talk to customers, promote their products, make presentations, write reports, interact with their marketing team, reduce costs, be aware of social issues, understand the whole process and look at the big picture.
Many of today’s problems require technological solutions (e.g. pollution, energy crisis, cost reductions). We need well rounded engineers with diverse skills (e.g. communication and leadership skills).
Once our profession and educational system catch up with the present and shed the nerd image, we will attract more well rounded people to our profession, and by default more women will go into engineering.
Cheers,
Joseph
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Maui
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
MacGyver is the only cool engineer I have ever heard of.
Most of the rest resemble an amalgamation of something between Dilbert, a crusty SeaBee, and characters from StarTrek.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Brad
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I went to a fairly exclusive engineering school with about a 25% female population. I married a female engineer, have several female engineer friends and work with several famale engineers whom I have much respect for.
One of the problems is that to meet a quota, engineering schools have begun to lower their entrance standards. I (as a white male) needed a minimum score on entrance exams to get into the school. I thought that this was reasonable because the minimum score was not extraordinarily difficult and I was getting into a very exlusive school. I did score higher than that and I proceeded to blow through in 4 years with relatively no problems. During those 4 years I watched several of my friends, some male and some female, struggle, become miserable and flunk out. I was shocked one day after I had graduated to find that several of them had scored significantly below my minimum requirement.
The perception that there are not enough women in engineering made the school admit just about any girl who had an interest in math or science, regardless of their academic ability. Engineering is a hard degree and I watched several people smarter than I am flunk out...you have to wonder why you would bring people in who are not cut out for it.
I have no doubt that there are high school girls out there who could be valedictorian at any school in the country. Emphasis should be put on finding these girls and getting them excited rather than setting up an average high school student for failure.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I am female, and have fairly recently obtained a bachelor in mechanical engineering. I am canadian. I am a mother of two boys.
My engineering school had about 10% female, with also the smallest percentages in mechanical engineering.
I do agree that women and men are different - partly because of society and partly because we just are. I think we will discover just how different we fundamentally are as time passes. Also as time passes - there will be more female engineers and there will be more male nurses (I do agree with the post that it needs to go both ways).
I think there are some things that can be done to help speed up the process -
Like changing the toy industry so that everything related to the home is not pink. I'm dying to buy my sons some house related toys - for example the little fisher price playhouse to complete our fisher price little people collection - but its sooo pink!! I just can't bring myself to buy it for them!! why is that? why is pink such a taboo color for boys?
I think that in order for women to succeed in male dominated environments men must take on a stronger role in the household. Men must also take parental leave -as I'm proud to say my engineer husband did. This will help in the sense that women who want to have a family will not shy away from male dominated environments. I was the FIRST employee of the first company I worked for to EVER take parental leave - it was a seven year old company, a boys club. I was also laid off when I returned.
While unemployed, I was teaching high school math as a substitute teacher. There was only one male in the department. The group could talk openly about planning pregnancies, about taking maternity leave. They - including the male - were a close knit bunch, something I've never seen in the male engineer dominated environment I usually find myself in. I think that this social aspect is important and is one reason women turn away from engineering.
one last thing - jokes. I'm sure most women that have participated in this forum have been the subject of the occasional "harmless" jokes from male coworkers/study groups. Hahahaha - ok lets get over it, I am a women. (These jokes need to stop)
So that's my take on the issue! fyi - I have finally landed another engineering job, and I like it. However it is yet again, an all male department. As a young engineer I would love to have a female role model to look up to or even just an equal to bond with.
Here's to hoping we will soon see more women in engineering, more men in nursing, and more men taking parental leaves.
samv
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I subbed while I was unemployed as well. Unfortunately, I was not lucky enough to get a long-term math position. I was called for a variety of short-term assignments from primary school through high school. I hated it. Being a sub in Canada may be different, but when I was subbing, it was like being a babysitter.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
http://engr.smu.edu/alumni/ebulletin/aug2003_women.html
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
http://engr.smu.edu/alumni/alumni_remember.html
I guess my alma mater is obvious now even to those who've never clicked on my profile
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
women (again, generally) navigate by landmark, men by direction (N, S, E, W) --
to get to my point, engineering has historically involved those activities aligned more with the way (most) men's brains are wired than with (most) women...
is this a bad thing? only if you want to be bad... the result is, fewer women will find this an interesting field to pursue as a career -- the challenge is to encourage those that have such an interest to pursue it... and make it rewarding to them... rewarding to any one who pursues this type of carrer..
I think overall, as mentioned by previous posters, we should make math and science (problem solving) more available, more intersting to ALL kids in the very early years of school; make summer jobs as interns more available to young women in high school, and encourage and support those that come to work at our companies...
above all else, don't make them "tokens" as happened in the past, don't over compensate them, don't promote them when not deserved, don't hold them above others -- they should, however, be full members of the team... it creates resentment in everyone otherwise...
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
My dad is a civil engineer so he was encouraging when I decided to do mechanical engineering. Mum (and other relatives) was the one who was worry that the work might be too dirty, the environment too male dominated etc.
There was only 3 other females in the class - that made it 10%. I had no problems with the guys in the class, we all got on well. What I found though, was that most of the guys were already quite familiar with mechanical things, from working with their cars, workshop subject at high school etc. I felt that I had much to catch up on in that area. You see I went to a all girls high school and had to endure craft lessons instead of doing cool things in metal class (how I envied my brother!).
Ok so hands-on stuff is only a small part of engineering, but I think it's an important part. I felt that girls were often discourage from doing those hands-on class, discourage from taking things apart and seeing how they works etc. I think the fact that engineering is about applying theory to make/create things should appeal to a lot of female, but nobody told them that's what engineering is. Things are a bit better now I think with awareness programs.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Why should it cause a career interruption having kids? Other than the obvious time off for recovery.
VivK:
I did not attend an all girls school, however, girls were strongly DISCOURAGED from taking shop & such.
pablo02: women (again, generally) navigate by landmark, men by direction (N, S, E, W)
I use both, but I always attributed it to being ambidextrous. Navigating by landmarks alone can be "dangerous" - new roads are built, old buildings are removed by fire or bulldozer, new buildings go up
above all else, don't make them "tokens" as happened in the past, don't over compensate them, don't promote them when not deserved, don't hold them above others -- they should, however, be full members of the team... it creates resentment in everyone otherwise
This is true for any group considered to be a "minority" in any area. It's not fair to anyone to promote based only on gender, race, etcetera - it sets the promotee up for failure and damages the "team" in general.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Maui
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I got 10 interviews and 5 job offers. My friend Jen in the class had 13 interviews and 9 job offers! Im actually kinda glad there's not a lot of females in my class, because then it would take away from our uniqueness. :) But i feel that having some females in engineering is important to add diversity in opinions and ideas.
I think someone compared this situation to males in nursing, but i think it is a bit different than that. Females in engineering are commended for being with the best(aka male engineers), where males in nursing get a different reaction.
It's similar to a female playing on the pga tour versus a male playing on the lpga.
Being in the class i definitely feel like i have to be "one of the boys" and have found a new interest in car models.
Maybe Barbie hates math. However, i love math and often find myself helping the boys with it ;)
This forum is awesome. i get to see real engineers at work, and also get an idea of what i want to do when im out of school, or on my next co-op term.
GO LEGO!
Lainey
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
It's easy to put the verbage out front; much harder to change cultural norms and even unspoken perceptions. I myself can hardly believe that I have caught myself thinking, "Oh, she's blonde, what does she know?" ... immediately before I slapped myself. Now where that could have come from, I haven't the foggiest idea -- certainly not something my parents taught me (though they taught me plenty of other things, some of which have deservedly been discarded).
In other words, "level playing field" is hard enough to achieve by itself, let alone tilting it the other (wrong) way. "Encouraging applications" from minority groups is easy to say; getting job offers extended is where the rubber meets the road. Retention long-term is the rest of the story.
It's evident from reading posts by several women engineers in this forum that propensity towards engineering in girls is demonstrated at a young age. The trick, as some have mentioned, is to encourage the tendency as a viable career option (easier when there are brothers whose toys can be envied, or perceptive dads who can have their daughters help them in the garage).
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
You state that, "It's evident from reading posts by several women engineers in this forum that propensity towards engineering in girls is demonstrated at a young age. The trick, as some have mentioned, is to encourage the tendency as a viable career option". I believe that fostering a child's enthusiasm for engineering, or science, or whatever they show an apptitude for is behavior that should be encouraged. And this is not limited to boys or girls. Both genders should be included equally. By allowing a child to realize what opportunities are available to them, and supplying appropriate support for them to follow their dreams, I believe that many of the stereotypes associated with particular professions would become obsolete. The question is, how do you get there?
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
"Oh, she's blonde, what does she know?"
I say this about my son all the time...
"Oh, he's blonde, what does he know?"
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Thereafter counting the number of females, whites, christians etc in a particular job or profession is simply pointless.
Sorry, couldn't say it politely.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
You described it well, 100th students and only 9 girls. I hear you when you say you don't wanna change it because it gives you more opportunities. Though, I think it's not as fair as it might look. You get better chances because you're a girl (and you admitted it) and because there is no many girls in engineering, and men prefer to hire girls (Yes, believe me :-p ). I can understand you like it being this way. Now, just think at your life in 5 years. You'll be working in the field of engineering, in a world largely dominated by men, with no more professor to give you more attention than the other ones. At this time, I guess you'll think different. I may be wrong of course.
Btw, I studied at U of O, Ontario. Not so far from Waterloo
And I'm glad you enforce the power of the LEGO
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I know you have cited some ruling. I'm curious if this is also your opinion, EM?
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I do think that there are social forces which probably make engineering more attractive to men than women. Its not just Barbie saying "math is hard". Its the fact that although sterotypes are changing, girls are still more likely to be given a Barbie, than an erector set, chamistry set, model airplane, etc. When I was a TA, in the early 1980's, I was given the job of teaching an Engineering Graphics class for freshmen (yes, we actually made drawings with pencil and paper back then). I was teaching a lab session which dealt with exploded view drawings, to a class of approximately twenty students, four of whom were female. All four of the women (all of whom were quite intelligent)were having problems with the assignment, while few of the men were. I asked one of the guys who was breezing through the assignment if he had ever done anything like this before, and he replied, "not exactly, but this is just like the directions which used to come with my model airplanes".
I've worked with, and occasionally for, female engineers and found most of them to be very good engineers. They also seemed to have much better communication and socialization skills, probably developed out of necessity, than most of their male counterparts.
As far as I'm concerned, what we need to do is to make this craft which we practice into a real profession. If that can be accomplished, I believe the gender issues will largely take care of themselves as they have in medicine and law. That's not to say that we shouldn't reach to young women, but first we need something more appealing than just a salary to offer them.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
My first reaction... Ouch. A hard criticism of the profession. My 2nd reaction... it's probably not too far off the mark. Engineering is a great profession as a young engineer. For middle age it seems there are plateau's tough to break unless at some point you make some lateral/upward transition outside of engineering roles. I think if I could I would.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Vivk said:
"What I found though, was that most of the guys were already quite familiar with mechanical things, from working with their cars, workshop subject at high school etc. I felt that I had much to catch up on in that area."
-- I totally agree, and it's very unfortunate. I think this is the major downside of our culture where girls get pink dolls and boys get "construction" toys. On the flipside - how many of you men have felt uncomfortable "babying" your little ones(comforting, bathing etc)? Are men less capable of doing this? Absolutely not - they just have never done it before.
many said:
boys score better at math (and sciences) than girls
-- I think the opposite is often true, and pure science programs in many schools now have MORE women than men. Applied Sciences is lagging behind (majorly) and I think this hands on thing is the major reason. Young girls and women are not encouraged to become comfortable with hammers and drills etc. and thus feel more comfortable taking their skills to the pure sciences than to the applied sciences.
Lainey said:
"Im actually kinda glad there's not a lot of females in my class, because then it would take away from our uniqueness. :) But i feel that having some females in engineering is important to add diversity in opinions and ideas.
I think someone compared this situation to males in nursing, but i think it is a bit different than that. Females in engineering are commended for being with the best(aka male engineers), where males in nursing get a different reaction.
It's similar to a female playing on the pga tour versus a male playing on the lpga. "
Although I completely disagree with a great deal of Lainey's post I'm glad she brought this to the table. I think a lot of women in engineering have felt a tinge of what she is saying - about liking all the attention etc. I think this is a VERY short sighted view because in the end it will come back and bite you probably in more ways than one.
To become a respected engineer you have to work hard and be dedicated. You have to play on the same field as the boys - if you don't they will surpass you. Although I'm not totally against this "biased scale" to help balance things out, it needs to be done very carefully and in ways that do not unfairly treat the "majority" (white male).
Now onto the nursing thing - as I said in a previous post I think the world needs to change in both ways with women having the chance to enter male dominated fields AND vice versa. I do not at all agree with comparing this with the LPGA because nursing is a very important career - not a less competitive league. Our society seems to demean everything that is traditionally female territory - from secretaries to nurses. It seems that being a forklift driver is more highly regarded than these traditionally female careers are.
In answer to Leanne's question that asked "Why should it cause a career interruption having kids? Other than the obvious time off for recovery" Because children are of the utmost importance, they deserve quality, and in the beginning lenghty, time with their parents (BOTH parents). Here in Canada we can take up to a full year of combined maternity and parental leave. Child rearing is another "female career" that gets a lot less recognition than it should.
... sorry to come down on you so hard Lainey! I do hope you understand that this tidal wave of "specialness" will not carry you very far in life.
Best regards,
samv
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Hmm, /cynical mode on/ it'll splash her up against the glass ceiling round here /cynical mode off/.
So far as the recruitment of women into engineering goes - in another thread many of us have said we would not recommend it as a career, given reasonable, equally liked alternatives, given the current and likely future state of play in the USA in particular, and the West in general. But we are more than happy to have female company on the sinking ship!
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Amen to that!
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Meanwhile, I've heard a lot lately about how there is (or will be) a "shortage" of engineers and scientists ... I'm not seeing it (see thread on jobs moving overseas, this forum).
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Or if you are being serious, yes.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Cyril suggested this, and certainly engineering student numbers are down in several countries, over the last decade. In Australia we are having difficulty recruiting experienced engineers, of specific types, but that is partly because we don't train enough technical stream engineers up. On the other hand people who are out of work in the USA and the UK do seem to be finding it hard to find relevant jobs, locally. Perhaps it is a global imbalance, rather than a shortage as such.
Maybe we should pursue this in the other thread?
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
To address your comment on the "engineering shortage". The "shortage" is invented by colleges to keep the seats filled and management to keep the supply high and salaries low.
The following is a quote from an article I've read:
"The engineering shortage crisis is a myth promoted by greedy corporations seeking relaxed rules for imported labor and universities seeking lucrative government grants."
The full article is found at:
http://www.roundtable.com/Critical_Path/volume4/critical-path-issue-4-6.html#1
Engineers are their own worst enemies when it comes to promoting the status and pay of the "profession". This is one of the reasons why I support P.E. registration. If there is no formal definition of "Engineer" anyone can claim the title. I've seen companies (and the military) give the title to people with no formal engineering education or any depth of experience. Companies will give you any title you want as long as you don't expect more pay to go along with the title.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
You have it right. There was a guy named Irwin Freest with the same ideals who ran for president of the IEEE several times in the 1980s. he was nominated by petition and was never a canidate of the establishment. The IEEE at the time ran one canidate for president, a canidate selected by the insiders ( all management and academians).
The IEEE though he was terrible and urged members not to vote for him. They said he would turn the IEEE into a union.
Actually he was right. I quite the IEEE because I got tired of being charged $ 100 + per year to vote in their sham electrions.
If you read this link you can see the IEEE is still afraid of him ( even though he's dead)
http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pubs/newsletters/npss/0602/fractious.html
There may have been some Freest suporters involved in the case of the Anthropology professor at Long Beach State in California giving his lectrues in Italian. Students complained about the italian, but he said " The engineering school has professors who don't lecture in english, I have checked the rules and there is no requirement" At the time LBS had some Chineese profs or grad students who spoke english very poorly. When engineering complained nothing was done. The anthropology professor got more publicity.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
This was directly proven in England about 15 yrs ago, when they tried to figure out why the only girls that earned college scholarships to math and science colleges were soley from all girl high schools. When they deliberately separated girl math + science classes from boy classes in co-ed schools, they obtained the result that the girls would then score much higher than those in the co-ed classes, and would obtain an equal liklihood of obtaining a scholarship.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Girls tend to prefer course work type subjects
Girls don't like the "right or wrong" aspects of science & maths and prefer subjective subjects like English or History
Girls lack women role models and maths & science teachers are often male (this was empahsised to me at school , where teh head of Physiscs, a woman noted that if she taught the 16 year old class physics, more girls tended to choose to do physics post 16 that if one of her male collegues was timetabled to do the 16 year old class).
Girls don't pick up the idea that maths & science carrers are for them (look at the carers advice pages of Glamour or Cosmoplitan- it's all how to be a better PA type stuff)
Having said that, in the old industry where I work, women engineers are like gold dust to employers, masters course admissions officers and so on, and many employers and industry organisations are working hard to make things beter for their women engineers- the SPE has a woman's networking section, my old employer Schlumberger had WISE-"Women in Schluberger Everywhere", which despite its awful name was very useful, I'm told. There is the occasional dinosaur at the wellsite who "won't take no orders from a girly" (I had this guy particular guy NRB'd), and it takes a strong character to be the only woman amongst 90 or so roughty toughty drillers.....
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Taking DrillerNic's observation above "women engineers are like gold dust to employers, masters course admissions officers and so on", I have to ask 'why?' once more. In my industry - power generation - there are relatively few female engineers. We have desperate trouble recruiting good engineers of either sex; a good female engineer would have no problem landing a position over a less qualified or experienced male engineer. If the reverse situation was true, I would be bitterly opposed to the position going to the female engineer purely to meet some politically correct agenda. There are bigger problems in our profession to address than trying achieve someone's idea of a perfect 50/50 balance between the sexes.
------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
These young women shouldn't be given any guilt about the need for female trail-blazers in the engineering field- they should be given honest evidence about the real prospects for employment suiting their skills and education when they graduate, at levels of compensation which justify the investment of effort. People should let them make up their own minds and STOP recruiting.
As to having more company on the sinking ship, I guess if a young woman loves engineering and shows enough intellect and drive to be good at it, there's no reason to stop her from pursuing her dream- but we have a responsibility to make sure she's realistic before she enters the program.
As to the issue of wasting talent, we're turning away kids with 90% averages from engineering schools as it is. Engineering is education as training for entry into a profession, not the "new liberal arts education". If universities believe that engineering education is the latter, they'd better 'fess up to the students in the first week of 1st year!
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
But in the politically correct world we live in social engineering seems to take priority over real engineering!
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Isn't it ironic that in trying to achieve equality, we are building discrimination into the system? At one time equality was about judging people based on relevant criteria rather than on some other inconsequential attribute (like sex, race,...) Now it's become about having some percentage representation rather than hiring the best candidate in every situation.
It's sad.
Dave
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Maui
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Not much reassurance for heavier people who need to be carried down a ladder to escape a burning building!
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I wouldn't go so far as to say I hope more women don't come in to lose me my advantage, and I don't think that's what anyone else on this thread meant, but I certainly don't mind having the advantage. It makes up for "Aww...do you need help adjusting your hardhat?" Or having my substantial wordsmithing of a major document be characterized as "keeping everyone in line and making the copies" while the guy who developed the word-processing template for the headers and margins was given credit for "handling the writing".
To those who feel that as long as there is no discrimination we shouldn't look at demographics--those numbers may or may not be a symptom of something wrong at an earlier stage than the hiring process. I don't believe there's enough biological difference between men and women to account for the differences in professions, and that there's a pattern in girls' upbringing that leads them to choose (of their own otherwise free will) fields other than engineering.
I think a lot of boys wind up going to engineering school as a default option, not because they're necessarily drawn to it. (How many high school students really understand what engineers do? I didn't.) Engineering isn't the default option for girls. Girls have to be a lot more actively interested in it to wind up there.
Hg
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I’d like to add my opinion.
Judging by my children (I’ll admit it is a small sample of the total population), girls take a career decision more seriously than boys do. My daughter researched many different careers and picked the one she felt was best. She chose Pharmacy.
She was interested in Environmental Engineering and even applied to an Engineering School and would have received a generous scholarship. She rejected Engineering due to the lower pay, the job instability and the projections of limited growth.
My sons did very little research and went into medicine for vague reasons (largely my encouragement). They did little research.
I don’t believe that stereotypes keep women from going into Engineering. They entered other traditionally male fields in large numbers and had great success. The career prospects keep them from going into Engineering. The stereotypes, however, do keep boys going into Engineering. Boys mature later than girls. A high school girl is better able to make career decisions than a boy. A boy is more reactive in his decisions.
If Engineering had more to offer, women would flock to the profession. (Actually Engineering is more a series of jobs than a profession.) Women are intelligent and are making informed rational career decisions. It would be wrong to try to indoctrinate them to go into Engineering. We need to change Engineering to attract women.
To address the questions asked in the first contribution to this thread:
-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?
Women are pursuing careers with more promise.
-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)
Women are coming to an “epiphany” as to the true nature of Engineering and are switching to a more desirable career.
-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?
Improve the prospects of Engineering. If engineering offered comparable pay, job security, professional status and was a growing field, women would enter the field in large numbers.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
You said.
‘I don't believe there's enough biological difference between men and women to account for the differences in professions, and that there's a pattern in girls' upbringing that leads them to choose (of their own otherwise free will) fields other than engineering.’
I disagree; it’s nothing to do with upbringing and has everything to do with physical and biological differences. For some reason it seems to be politically incorrect to talk about differences in race and sex.
I watched a program on the discovery channel that showed men and women’s brains are physically different and not just different sizes.
Why are all the best racing drivers men?
Why are all the best heavyweight boxers black?
Why are all the best snooker players white?
Wouldn’t it make more sense to discourage selective recruitment based on race and sex and instead encourage people develop whatever talents they were born with.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
While I do agree that selective recruitment based on race and sex is not right - I do not agree that society has yet reached the point where the difference in women and men's behaviour is simply due to biological differences. I strongly believe that women still shy away from the male dominated hands on careers because they were less encouraged to use their hands (and brains) to build things as children (and even as young adults). Rather than toy hammers and legos the overwhelming majority of girls had (and still have from what I've seen) dolls and strollers etc.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I agree with you completely dannym.
Comparing young women to young men, I would have to say that the young men tend to have a less realistic view of the world.
I also think that the education of young boys includes more manipulation - if not outright "brainwashing" - designed to make them more competitive and as a consequence more controllable. They are easy prey for unscrupulous recruiters and will eagerly jump at "pie in the sky" promises that that most young women would see right through.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Men and women are very different, have different tastes and different choices of career. Why try to change human nature?
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I'll tell you why it's un-PC to talk about biological differences between men and women. Because once such a difference is declared to be normal, those of us who fall on the wrong side will have been declared to be abnormal.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
This topic is supposed to be about why women don't like engineering, not about what is normal or abnormal. I was merely pointing out that physical and biological differences are one the main factors of career choice.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I'm sure that I simplified it. Also, I admitted that I only have 3 kids to judge by.
However, I am convinced that women enter into a career choice far more informed than men. From the kids I’ve known, (admittedly me and my friends and my kids and their friends), girls take a career choice more seriously. They project further into the future, to the time when they are older and raising a family, etc. They research, talk, shadow professionals, etc. It is an indisputable fact that women, in general, mature earlier than men. At 17 to 18 years of age this “maturity gap” is pretty significant. I’m speaking of maturity, not intelligence.
There is no substitute for intelligence, just as there is no cure for stupidity. Intelligence and stupidity are evenly distributed through both the male and female populations. Maturity at the time of high school graduation is sharply skewed toward the female population.
If 30 years ago, engineering was the same as it is now I hope I would have been smart enough to pick something a better profession. I enjoy engineering. I hate the low pay (relative to other professions), the low respect and the job insecurity.
If the prospects for engineering were better, women would be attracted to engineering. As it is the best and the brightest are pursuing more promising futures.
In general,
Some people seem to imply that males are better suited to be engineers. I don’t agree. I’ve known good women engineers and bad women engineers. Likewise, I’ve known good men engineers and bad men engineers.
I think women are discouraged by career prospects in engineering relative to other professions.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
I think men and women are discouraged by the career prospects. In the UK women are actively encouraged to become engineers by the professional institutions, universities and business. This has little effect on increasing numbers, everyone has their own theories but the trends of the general population speak for themselves. For the record the few female engineers I have met were often chosen for promotion and were amongst the best in the company.
If men are not indeed better suited to a career in engineering (general population not individual cases) then where are all the women engineers?
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Gender may make a person better or worse suited for a profession. Social differences because of gender may also make a person better or worse suited for any profession.
This still does not make all people of one gender suitable or unsuitable for any profession.
All it does is make it a greater chance that any one gender will dominate a profession.
I have known good women engineers and good male nurses. In any specific case gender should not matter as long as the person has the necessary other qualities necessary for the profession.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
In my experience this is already the case. The engineering environment is very welcoming for women. I have the utmost respect for women engineers and as far as I’m aware women engineers are admired by both sexes both within engineering and outside engineering. There are reasons why men dominate the engineering profession and women dominate nursing and like it or not gender makes a difference. People on this thread keep quoting individual cases but I am talking about the general majority.
Do you think women in general are better suited to nursing than men?
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
In my opinion, the engineering environment is NOT "very welcoming to women" - only certain modern engineering companies of a certain size could be describe as "welcoming".
And no, I do not think we should believe in ANY sweeping generalization of what sexes and races should be better at. It needs to be left to each individual to decide for him or herself.
I will add that I know of men who have gone thru difficulties in integrating in the nursing environment because of "unwelcoming" women - yes it must go both ways.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Other industries do in fact make sweeping generalisations particularly insurance. I pay higher motor insurance premiums because I am male, no other reason.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
Selective recruiting to meet targets based on sex or race is not the answer, however... in the short term it is a method that will help tip the scale.
A better method in my opinion is to work with young people to help them make career choices that suit their true personality, and, should this choice be an "uncommon" one -arm them with some resources and tools to help them get past the hurdles and deal with the issues big or small.
RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
In terms of opportunities for women, it seems to be entirely up to the management of the company; I have seen both extremes. In the first case, the management would not interview any women ( or any other minorities) for any engineering jobs because tehy were given to the legal opinion that if they interviewed the minority but did not hire them, they would be sued for discrimination, and they thought best way to avoid such a suit was to refuse to interview such persons. In this interpretation , the opportunities for women and minorities was dierctly reduced by laws which were originally meant to imrpove the opportunities.
In the cae where the company actively sought out women and minorities, they perfomed as wel as any other engineer would , and the atmosphere was healthier.