×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Encouraging women to enroll in engineering
28

Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

(OP)
Another spin-off from the "Boot camp" thread in this forum --

It's pretty clear that by and large, most engineering fields have a low percentage of females. In my experience, the percentage gets lower as the people get older. In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore.

Some specific topics to discuss:
-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?
-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)
-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?

In my area, there's a "Saturday Academy" with specific classes to address some of this; there's also an organization called AWSEM for middle school girls (I'll have to post the links later). Other ideas?

Cathy Biber

Biber Thermal Design
www.biberthermal.com

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

The number of women in the profession is on the rise.  When the numbers increase above 50%.  Will we have encouraging men to enroll in engineering?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Actually, there are plenty of men that I would have liked to have discouraged from entering engineering.  Maybe that would help the percentages.

To begin with, talking Barbie has to quit telling little girls that "math is hard".

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

3
Mattel pulled those dolls very quickly after women complained.

LeAnne
BSEE

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

cbiber:

I have one idea, stop the tokenism of women in business.  I can not even tell you the number of women engineers I hired over the years.  Their skill sets are the same as men, but their level of effort, willingness to listen, learn, and apply is better.  Their client disposition is better.  They were just a valued part of my teams.  But they all left for companies outside of engineering because their positive attributes made them a prime candidates for pharmacutical sales, Industry managment, state regulatory agencies...etc....all careers that involve NO engineering but DO have quotas for women or have alterior motives for having women employed.  They are removing some of the best talent I have yet to come across from the engineering business.....

In the vacuum they leave behind, no women are there to talk up their careers as engineers....

just my thoughts....

BobPE

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I have participated for a number of years in the February engineering week events by giving presentations at local schools. Even in 4th grade, kids (both genders) perceive engineering as a nerdy. They typically want to be firefighters, cops, actors/actresses, NASCAR drivers, and so on. I never had a kid respond (from 4th grade to 9th grade) that they wanted to be an engineer.

AWSEM? I've never heard of them. Take Our Daughters to Work day has deteriorated into Take Our Children to work day. I do not have a daughter (my only offspring is male), but I would have preferred to see the day remain daughter-focused. I stopped participating in presentations when the focus for Take Our Daughters to Work Day changed to children from daughters.

My 12 year old niece wants to be an astronaut, but she's interested in marine biology, not engineering. She's at NASA's space camp this week in Huntsville, Alabama. This is her second year.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

When I was a kid in grade school, I wanted to be an inventor like my dad.  My hero was the Professor on Gilligan's Island.

A boy like that usually doesn't have a lot in common with his peers.  I imagine it would be harder still for a girl.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

(OP)
Wow, what a response! Keep 'em coming!

Though, I must say, after I started this thread, I got to thinking about "why do we need gender equity?" In the end, I don't think it's about gender equity at all -- it's more about critical mass. Or maybe not even that -- maybe it's about some kind of comfort level. Nobody is going to pursue a career in which the work environment feels uncomfortable.

Women engineers out there, where are you on this comfort level in your workplace? What would lure you out of it?

I clearly don't have enough to do!!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

It's already hard enough to find quality minds out there without excluding half the population.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Cathy, I'm curious if you've heard why your female school colleagues are not engineers. Did they ever plan on being engineers and then choose careers like medicine or did they originally plan to be physicians all along.

Were these colleagues from your undergrad days or your doctoral studies? (yeah, I checked your website

Oh yeah, and where'd you get the cool light saber emoticon???

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

leanne--
True, Mattel did pull those Barbies fast, but it was not the Barbie but rather the pervasive stereotype that she reflected.

Imagine a talking Little Bill (my apologies to non-two-year-old parents--he's a 4-year-old African-American cartoon character) stating "Math is hard".  No toy executive would dream of such a thing.  Yet somebody (a group actually) thought that appealing to little girls with "Math is hard" would be accepted.

Society is telling girls that math is hard (for that matter, many Hispanics and African-Americans are given the same message). What more can we expect when such conditioning happens?  Young women in general are not preparing themselves to be engineers.

It is sad, and a very difficult problem to fix...

Brad

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

3
-- Why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?

Let's face it; our noble profession has a serious image problem. Seriously, how many people know what an engineer does? Come on, admit it, how many times have you hear this at a party, "And I thought engineers only built bridges!”

It is terrible that the vast majority of our population does not know or even have a clue as to what an engineer does, but what makes things worse is that the stereotypes are painful:

"Engineers can't write."

"They are all a bunch of nerds."

None of our heroes are engineers. When was the last time you saw a movie in which the main character was an engineer? There are movies and TV shows about lawyers and doctors, but ours truly is the forgotten profession.

Why is it that when NASA does something great, the press says that it was "science that triumphed", but when there is an accident it is "engineering that failed"? Our media is ignorant when it comes to engineering.

No wonder there are so few girls interested in engineering.

Our society and our profession is poorer because of this.


-- How can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?

We must fix this image problem. Universities and Engineering Societies must do a better job of informing young high school students about our profession. Engineering can be a very interesting, challenging and rewarding career. People should be informed about this.

We need a TV show called "L.A. Engineering". No, I am not kidding.

-- Why do they drop out of engineering programs

because, like so many students they do not get to see the light at the end of the tunnel. If only our engineering programs had more "applied engineering" and "design engineering" courses that showed students that there is a reason for all the math and science, and that engineering can be fun.

An engineering program that has little emphasis on communication skills, (i.e. is designed for nerds) will only attract nerds to our profession.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I have a young daughter.

I'm curious - would you women out there recommend engineering as a career for a young woman?

It seems to me that ladies in engineering have one advantage (presuming they're good) - they automatically stand out from the crowd just because of the relative dearth of female engineers.

I believe that standing out from the crowd is very significant in advancing a career.

The flip side is that I've heard many stories about the "glass ceiling", "old boys networks", etc. I've not witnessed these but don't know that I'd recognize them even if I did (I'd like to think I would but when it's not your reality it can be tough to see the subtleties).

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I don't know how many of you have ever perused the "Foreign Ladies" type sites on the internet, (maybe I should get a life), but its amazing, when you look at the Russian ones, how many of them are engineers. And they're not "Ninotchka" or "Babushka" types either (unless the pictures are faked). So it's at least partially a cultural thing. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there is a greater percentage of women in government organisations like NASA. Why is this ? Politically correct hiring practices ?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I hope I don’t sound sexist, but here goes…at the risk of sounding stereotypical, isn't it possible that most women just simply aren't interested in engineering?  Everyone knows there are natural differences between men and women, and I think these differences play a role in the careers that men and women tend to pursue.

I knew several female engineering students when I was in school in the early years (freshman and sophomore years).  Most of them did fairly well, and many of the ones that transferred out did so because they hated it.  I also knew a few who did very well, hated it, and stuck with it anyway.  Those women took non-engineering jobs when they graduated.

Consider the nursing profession.  There are few male nurses (think of the movie "Meet the Parents").  I think the main reason for this is that there are few men interested in nursing.

I guess I am stating that most women, by their very nature, don't gravitate towards engineering, just as most men, by their very nature, don't gravitate towards nursing.  There are certainly many exceptions, and I am certainly not implying that women can't be good engineers or that men can't be good nurses.

Having said that, I also agree that there are several barriers that make entering the engineering profession difficult for women.  Just the fact that the profession is dominated by males makes things difficult.  But I don't think that is the primary reason there are so few women in the field.  Likewise, I'm sure there are some men out there that would like to be nurses but don't because of the high percentage of women in the field.  But I don't think that is the main reason there are so few men.

My school had aggressive recruiting programs for women.  Women were telephoned by professors while they were still in high school and were encouraged to apply.  There were lucrative scholarship and grant opportunities.  These things had little affect.  Would they induce you to pursue a profession that you weren't interested in?

Haf

P.S.  I agree that we as engineers should strive to educate the public about what engineers do and how they do it, but I don't think that has anything to do with the low number of women entering the field (lack of public knowledge should affect men and women equally).

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

josephv  wrote: If only our engineering programs had more "applied engineering" and "design engineering" courses that showed students that there is a reason for all the math and science, and that engineering can be fun.

Our engineering programs? I think it needs to begin MUCH earlier - like in primary school. Kids, in general, do not seem interested in math or science - why? They don't learn application for it as they are learning the math or science in class.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

haf wrote: I guess I am stating that most women, by their very nature, don't gravitate towards engineering, just as most men, by their very nature, don't gravitate towards nursing.  There are certainly many exceptions, and I am certainly not implying that women can't be good engineers or that men can't be good nurses.

Girls play with dolls. Boys play with action figures. Be honest. How many of you with boys disallowed your boy to play with dolls? But allowed action figures?

I don't think it is nature related. I think it is based on many moons of stereotypes...Historically, women who expressed interest in math & science were directed toward teaching. Up until WWII when women replaced men in the workforce, a very small percentage of married women worked outside the home. After the war ended, women were expected to leave the workforce opening jobs back up for soldiers returning from the frontlines to take care of home & hearth, raising a family, being Mrs. Cleaver.

Women who wanted to work post-WWII were like electricity for the most part - they took the path of least resistance. They became teachers, nurses, secretaries, assembly line workers,...Here & there, women bucked "the system" and went into engineering, became doctors, opted to work in construction, paving the way for later generations who wanted those careers.

Cultural change does not happen without growing pains and lots of fighting the changes along the way. While there is still room for growth, the work culture has changed dramatically over the past 5-6 decades. And, just consider technology advances we've seen in that same period.

We cannot expect the glass ceiling or gender career stereotypes to go away overnight.

Considering very few of the "Math is tough" Barbies made into the hands of kids, I do not think Mattel's snafu made any impact on the rate of females entering engineering programs. Besides, didn't you hear? Barbie dumped Ken for GI Joe - she liked his Jeep & there's just something about a man in uniform.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I wish there would more girls in the field of engineering, especially Mech Eng.

Remembering my last 6 years of school, there was so far :

1996/1997 : 22 students, all males
1997/1999 : 85 students, 3 girls
1999/2000 : 80 students, 3 girls
2000/2001 : 25 students, 1 girl
2001/2002 : 80 students, 2 girls
2002/2003 : 14 students, all males

How can we sayt their number is increasing? Maybe it is so in other fields of engineering, like electronics or computers, but it sure isn't in mechanical.

However, the few girls who were in my classes were on the top 10. They may be few of them, but they rule, they're hard workers and passionate. That's why I'd like to see more of them. Engineering has a strong image of a men work, I think it's time for a change. Women proved their excellence in many fields and there is no more need to show they equal men (or even go further) in all kind of jobs.

Maybe we just smeel of cheese

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

6
I think the reason that there are few women in engineering is partly cultural but mostly due to the engineering environment.

Medicine, law, business, etc. don't have the same problem attracting qualified women that engineering does. And women can be excellent engineers.

Partly, this is cultural. Typically, women didn't become engineers. At the time when women were breaking from traditional (and usually lower paid) roles, the other professions were paying better and offered better career paths than engineering. Capable, ambitious women, not lead by stereotypes, picked what they thought was the best choice of profession. Engineering’s problems with pay, job stability and social recognition are getting worse, not better. The alternate career paths are becoming even more attractive. Until our profession improves its financial and social status, we cannot expect to attract the best and brightest men or women.

Another factor that either keeps women out of engineering or causes them to drop out is the nature of many engineering jobs. Women are and have always been the "anchor" of the family. Unanticipated travel, unexpected overtime, layoffs, job searches and out-of-town jobs are more disruptive to the family if they happen to the mother. Other careers are either more stable or provide a sufficient income stream to provide quality care for the children.

I'm sorry if anyone finds what I've said offensive. It is my honest opinion

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

EnglishMuffin "...its amazing, when you look at the Russian ones, how many of them are engineers..."

Good point, there are more female engineers (percentage wise) in Eastern Europe. I can only conclude that we have a serious problem in North America.


leanne "I think it needs to begin MUCH earlier - like in primary school. Kids, in general, do not seem interested in math or science - why? They don't learn application for it as they are learning the math or science in class."

Good point, an Australian friend once told me that they had engineering design classes in high school! But, I do agree with you, we must do something about primary school math and science education. Perhaps add some more "applied" science, and take in to account that children have different learning styles.

cbiber "In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore."

Same here, but most of my female colleagues have all moved on to bigger and better things (management, biomedical, entrepreneurial etc.). In fact I would say that many of the smartest people in my class are no longer engineers. Once again, our profession has a serious problem... why can't we keep the smartest people?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I agree with dannym.   The sad fact is that the engineering profession is not in good shape at the moment.  The women that choose not to go into engineering, at this time, are probably doing the right thing.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

We had a good percentage of women in our school, possibly as high as 25%.  Broken down by type, there were hardly any female ME's.  Most went into civil or biomed.

I'm curious about the percentage of women engineers with advanced degrees.  The percentage of women in MS programs seemed even higher.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering


Hello all,

You may already know this, but just in case there are a couple of organizations that encourage young women to choose engineering as a career.


In the United States

http://www.societyofwomenengineers.org/


In Canada

http://www.cemf.ca/

Cheers,

Joseph

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Part of increasing the number of women in engineering is the implied idea that by increasing the numbers of women in traditionally male dominated job classifications is essential to having gender equality in our society.

I do not believe that we will ever have gender equality in our society and workplaces until males can join traditionally female dominated job classifications without fear of any discrimination or repercussions. It is socially acceptable for females to be doctors, not males to be nurses; it is acceptable for females to be lawyers not males to be clerical.

My wife is a nurse and her work partner is a dietitian, a graduate of a Home Economics program. A few years ago her partner was away on a maternity leave and the replacement was a newly graduated male dietitian. He was continually subjected to gender based discrimination throughout his university and work career.  Both males and females often called his sexuality into question.  He had a lot of trouble getting a job, in spite of slightly above average marks and an easy going personality, he was one of the last hired out of his class and for only a term position.

While the university had some good programs to encourage women to join traditionally male dominated facilities, he received some of this discrimination from the hands of female facility.

My point is that the gender equality has to go both ways for it to be anything other than a sham.

He did get the last laugh. He was a 6’3” athlete type who ended up as the team dietitian for a pro sports team.

I have no problem with women engineers; the last technician I hired was a female. I just have a problem with the lack of support for males who want to enter traditionally female dominated jobs.

And now for the obligatory joke, I heard this as a true story. (It was told at a retirement event so take it with a grain of salt, but it does make a good story.)

At a construction start-up meeting there were several representatives from the owner, the consultant and the contractor. Most of the participants knew each other from past projects. One of the new participants was a young woman who did not participate in the meeting, just sat at the back and took a lot of notes.

At the conclusion of the meeting the contractor went up to the head of the consultant delegation and said “Good idea, Joe, to bring a secretary to take notes and get the minutes out faster”

To which Joe responded: “I’m sorry Sam, I’d like you to meet Sally, She is our newest engineer and will be looking after this project for us.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Rick,

I have no doubt that the story is true having been in similar situations. I've also been asked to make coffee for "the guys". They only ask once. I don't drink coffee you do NOT want to drink coffee I've made, trust me on that one....

I get my fix via .

When my son was born nearly 20 years ago, my doctor was a female & my assigned nurse was male. They were a great team.

At one time, clerks and secretaries were male and there was no dishonor in having that job. There should be nothing dishonorable about it now.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I never said that there was anything dishonourable about any employment.

It’s just that it’s not always socially accepted. Gender should not matter for career and employment proposes.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

(OP)
Rick,
"Gender should not matter for career and employment purposes."

Yes, yes, yes.

How do we get there?!

Why aren't there many girls in high school math classes?
How do we keep everyone's options open long enough for them to grow into a career choice? Goodness knows, I didn't always want to be an engineer. I just picked ME because it was the "most general" -- it would expose me to various possibilities before I had to make a choice.

If I were to do it over, I'd probably opt for Chemical Engineering, and curiously, at my alma mater, that major has often been close to gender-equal. Nobody needs to have previous experience fixing lawn mowers or motorcycles to understand the stuff -- everyone has to learn everything from the ground up. (Kid chemistry sets notwithstanding.)

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

My wife, though not an engineer, was employed in a field which is about 90% dominated by men. She twice was given flowers by the department head on Secretary's Day (he apparently had trouble remembering that she was NOT a secretary). On the second occasion, she nearly made him something other than male.

In spite of many programs within her field that encourage gender-equity (most notably Title IX-mandated directives), true equity won't be relized as long as the "good-ol boys" equate females with secretaries.  My impression is that her profession is about a generation behind engineering, but her experience made me sensitive to female engineers' situations.

Brad

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Brad, your first paragraph needed a spew alert....

cbiber, I had would have preferred chem E, but there were no schools offering it in Dallas & at that time, I could not relocate to attend college. So, I majored in EE instead.

Rick, my use of the term dishonorable was correct linguistically

dis·hon·or   (see dictionary.com)
n.
  1. Loss of honor, respect, or reputation.

  2. The condition of having lost honor or good repute.

  3. A cause of loss of honor: was a dishonor to the club.

  4. Failure to pay or refusal to accept a note, a bill, or another commercial obligation.

tr.v. dis·hon·ored, dis·hon·or·ing, dis·hon·ors
  1. To bring shame or disgrace upon.

  2. To treat in a disrespectful or demeaning manner.

  3. To fail or refuse to accept or pay (a note, bill, or check, for example).


dis·hon·or·a·ble
adj
  1. lacking honor or integrity; deserving disshonor; "dishonorable in thought and deed"; "a dishonorable discharge" [syn: dishonourable] [ant: honorable]

  2. deceptive or fraudulent; disposed to cheat or defraud or deceive [syn: dishonest] [ant: honest]

  3. not bringing honor and glory; "some mute inglorious Milton here may rest" [syn: inglorious] [ant: glorious]

  4. not adhering to ethical or moral principles; "base and unpatriotic motives"; "a base, degrading way of life"; "cheating is dishonorable"; "they considered colonialism immoral"; "unethical practices in handling public funds" [syn: base, dishonourable, immoral, unethical]

  5. morally unacceptable; "the dishonorable conduct of trusted men" [syn: dishonourable]

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Leanne,
I apologize if I was too oblique in making my point. I was trying to reinforce that your experience is not unique for many women in male-dominated fields (engineering and otherwise).
Brad

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Brad, no apology needed...spew alert is net lingo for you wrote something that made me laugh & I snorted Dr Pepper through my nose while cackling so hard that it spewed all over my computer screen....

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Geez, that sounds like horrible thing to see

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Nice one, brad.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Leanne,
Thanks for the clarification; I thought I was being slammed for excessive verbosity (a common sin on my part).
Brad

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

If you want more women to go into engineering, don't leave it to the men of engineering to convince them.  Most of us have trouble convincing women to join us for a cup of coffee!

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

As I read through the posts above, I made the following observations.

A few have written that engineering suffers from an image problem.  I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but I fail to see why this discourages women in specific from engineering (unless you are suggesting that women are more concerned with the image of the profession they choose than men are).

Many have also written that they think that the small number of women in the field discourages women from entering the profession.  I think this plays a role, but I don’t think this is the main issue either.  Years ago, there were few women working, period.  Over time, as our culture started to change, more and more women started working.  The percentage of women in nearly all professions started to rise.  It also rose (and continues to rise) for engineering, but at a much slower rate.  Why is this?

There are also a lot of posts that contend that the stereotypes set and perpetuated by society deter women from entering the profession.  I don’t agree with this either.  For example, one stereotype is that women aren’t good at math or science.  This simply isn’t true.  Percentage wise, there are many more women in accounting and financing than in engineering (that takes care of math).  Similarly, percentage wise, there are many more women in biology, chemistry, and medicine than in engineering (that takes care of science).  So what makes engineering different?

I also disagree that women are discouraged “by society” from entering engineering.  Women engineers are not looked down upon at all, in my opinion (in contrast to male nurses or male secretaries, who are frequently ridiculed by society).  Quite the contrary.  Women are recruited by engineering schools more frequently than men.  Scholarship and grant opportunities are abundant.  Finding a job is generally not a problem.

A few of you have related stories about how women engineers have been assumed to be secretaries, etc.  These stories are not unique to engineering.  They are perpetrated by sexist individuals, and those same individuals exist in other professions as well.  I suspect similar stories exist in which “engineer” is replaced by “lawyer,” “doctor,” “businessman” (or should I say person?), etc.  In fact, in bradh’s story, our heroine was not an engineer.

I guess what I’m saying is that many of the reasons presented above for the low numbers of women in engineering are not unique to engineering.  Women have overcome these same obstacles in other professions.  So what makes engineering different?

Haf

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Perhaps it's something along the lines that women, in general, tend to be more socialized than men (again, speaking in very broad terms).

Engineering, as a profession, seems much more isolated than many others. Many of us spend many hours alone at our desks doing design or analysis. Very engaging but very little interaction.

My observation of the women in my life is that they tend to be more socially interactive than many men. They may prefer professions which offer more interaction like law, medicine, sales, management.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I agree that that (socialization) may be one reason.  What you're saying is similar to what I mentioned in my first post.

Men and women are different.  Women tend to be more socialized.  Men tend to be physically stronger.  Women tend to learn languages faster.  Women tend to be more emotional.  Men tend to be more logical.  These statements may bother some people, but I don’t think they are sexist comments.  Sexist is when you use these tendencies to judge someone or to assume someone is incapable of performing a task.

In other words, just because men tend to be stronger than women, doesn’t mean that a woman can’t be a construction worker.  Similarly, just because women tend to learn languages faster than men, doesn’t mean that a man can’t be a translator.

A few people noted above that the women engineers they worked with tended to be darn good engineers and had strengths that were apparently different than the male engineers they worked with.  I don’t think those are sexist comments; however, I do think it would be sexist if one hired a female engineer under the assumption that she would have certain strengths or weaknesses, based solely on her sex.  Understand the difference?

I know some may think it’s an “archaic” viewpoint (according to the “Boot Camp” thread from which this thread originated), but I stand by my claim that women naturally don’t tend to gravitate towards an engineering career.  Frankly, I haven’t seen an argument that convincingly disproves this.

Haf

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I think women prefer professions that offer real careers like law, medicine, sales, and management. Many men (and I'm a man) get trapped by stereotype and ego into going into engineering and cannot admit they made a mistake.

I don't believe its the "interaction" that attracts them to the to other professions. They want a better return on their educational and work efforts. They don't want to feel under-appreciated and under-rewarded. "I DIDN'T SPEND 4 YEARS IN COLLEGE FOR THIS"

                          


                                                                           

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

2
My sincere question to all. why women(specifically!) should be encouraged to join engineering? Is it for the sake of engineering or for the sake of women or on humanitarian grounds? I couldn't get the point.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Hello quark,

Currently, our educational system and our profession are designed in such a way that they discourage many talented and intelligent women from joining engineering.

It is time that we call a spade a spade; this is clearly a form of discrimination.

Cheers,

Joseph

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I know at least one company that generally favors women engineers. While I worked there, they hired maybe 90% women to 10% men. This was in my mind due to a quota issue.

That being said, most of the women they hired were quality engineers.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Female ME here!

Well I agree the ME department had a horrible ratio when I was in college (graduated 2002).  But I also got a minor in materials engineering and was shocked when I sat down in a room predominantly female.  But Materials had a reputation at my school of being easy and having the least amount of math.  So that would go along with the whole math scaring away females theory.

I became an engineer because I was told I was smart and good at math so that would be a good choice.  I was also great at english but I chose engineering couldn't think of anything besides teaching that I could do with english.  I stuck with my major because all the other majors were for 'dumb people' (it may sound crude but it was my opinion at the time).  And now I'm sticking with my job because of the money ;p.

My two other female ME friends took different paths.  Both chose ME because they like math.  One works making beer and using none of her engineering skills (more of a management type of job).  She loves it and the money.  Another is a secretary.  She's just outta school and can't find a job.  But she likes being a secretary because she makes money (though not a lot) and it's not stressful.  She doesnt' handle stress well.

I think girls not liking math is definitely a factor but I can't fathom why a girl wouldn't like math as it's always been a breeze for me.  Another factor is the whole 'girls are raised differently than boys' idea.  I saw a Discovery channel type special where they watched how parents treated male and female children differently.  They saw that they were more likely to help the girls with things (such as put together a toy) while boys were left more to themselves to figure it out.  I think this could lead to a lot of girls dropping out of engineering because they're used to having their hand held and they consequently give up easily.

Also, when I was a kid I remember complaining to my parents about how boring girl toys were and how I wanted boy toys.  Transformers and race cars morphed and did things but girl toys were just boring dolls that didn't have any complicated moving parts. That could also be a factor though I think that'll change because there are so many cooler toys for both sexes nowadays.  Perhaps this'll help boost the female engineering population in a couple years.

So I guess I'm mainly blaming society and norms.  But I feel like these things are breaking down, especially since the expansion of technology and the internet.  I don't think they'll be such a big gap in future engineering graduates.  

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Transformers? We played with Lincoln Logs & Shrinky Dinks & Erector Sets & what was that other building set called where you had wood pieces that fit into other wood pieces & you could build stuff (sticks & cogs & such)?

Barbie doll & GI Joe wars - our explosives were fireworks that are no longer available because kids used to blow off body parts accidentally on stupid.

my all-time favorite childhood toy was a Tonka Jeep with Air Force markings....I still have it....

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I think that the other building set that you're referring to is Tinker Toys.  I didn't have Transformers either, but my friends did.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Do you think all engineers grew up playing Lego/Meccano/Any other building set?

I did myself, and I still own a good amount of Lego bricks and I rarely refuse to built some stuffs with them when little sister ask for it

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

LEGOS!

I was so excited when my son (now 2) got his Duplos set.  I'm working hard to keep him from putting stuff in his mouth, as I want him to graduate ASAP to Legos so I can "teach" him.  

Of course, this is in no way connected to the fact that my younger brother sold MY Legos at a garage sale.

And leanne, you're dating yourself, especially with the "Lincoln Logs" reference (don't worry, I played with them too; I'm just barely too old for Transformers).


RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

from the pages of True Tales of Women in Engineering, a story about men's listening skills.....

I was working for a company that makes lawn care equipment.  There was a newly-hired fresh-from-college woman engineer, Kris, who asked for my help with a design problem, a mechanism for adjusting the height of a roller.

She had a pretty good concept, and she just wanted my help fleshing it out.  When we were finished, she asked if I could sit in while she presented the design to her boss.

When her boss started reviewing, I was totally shocked by what happened.  He proceeded to cross out everything with a red pencil and draw his own version of how he thought the mechanism should be built.  By the time the boss was done, he had come completely full circle and drawn exactly what we had initially presented.

Poor Kris was stunned.  I was, too.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Why does anyone choose a particular field of study? There has to be something about it that appeals to them, and that draws them in. I was a good student in high school, and found that math and science were interesting topics. I couldn't afford to attend an undergraduate university that offered an engineering program, so I studied the next best thing - math and physics. With the help of a scholarship I attended graduate school and finally had the opportunity to get into engineering. So one of the possible reasons that more women don't enter engineering programs is that they simply can't afford it. It's a long road to travel when you have to foot the bill for your own education.

The women who are able to enter engineering programs pursue it for a specific reason. They are motivated, and willing to do a lot of hard work to earn their respective degrees. What I don't understand is why anyone sees a problem with the number of women currently entering the profession. Are women discouraged from becoming engineers because of the image that it portrays? Is there a stigma associated with being a female engineer? I don't think so, but someone here may be able to enlighten me if that is the case. I believe that the factors mentioned in the previous threads show that men are more inclined to study engineering simply because it appeals to them more than it does to women. And there is nothing wrong with this.


                                        Maui

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Maui,

I don't agree with your first paragraph.  Money is a factor that should affect both men and women equally.

I agree with your second paragraph, especially the sentence:

"I believe that the factors mentioned in the previous threads show that men are more inclined to study engineering simply because it appeals to them more than it does to women."

The question is, why does engineering appeal to women less than men?  Is it "natural" or is it instilled by "society"?  I guess you could argue that the nature of men and women is instilled by society to some degree, or maybe even to a large degree.  The truth is, I don't know, and nobody else does either.  The only way to really find out would be to do unethical experiments on men and women that have been isolated from society since birth.

Also, I suppose one could argue that even the pure "nature" of men and women (here I'm talking about the nature at birth unaffected by experiences in society) is determined by societies and norms of the past, which were passed on through genes.

You could go crazy thinking about this stuff!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering


Hello Haf,

"A few have written that engineering suffers from an image problem.  I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but I fail to see why this discourages women in specific from engineering."

An engineering program that has little emphasis on communication skills, (i.e. is designed for nerds) will only attract nerds to our profession.

Right now our profession attracts poor communicators, people with poor social skills, and people with little or no interest in leadership (i.e. nerds).

Yet what are profession needs is excellent communicators, and people with social skills and leadership qualities.

Gone are the days when an engineer would sit at his cubicle make a few calculations and only talk to two people per day. Today's engineers must talk to customers, promote their products, make presentations, write reports, interact with their marketing team, reduce costs, be aware of social issues, understand the whole process and look at the big picture.

Many of today’s problems require technological solutions (e.g. pollution, energy crisis, cost reductions). We need well rounded engineers with diverse skills (e.g. communication and leadership skills).

Once our profession and educational system catch up with the present and shed the nerd image, we will attract more well rounded people to our profession, and by default more women will go into engineering.

Cheers,

Joseph

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Josephv, as long as Dilbert continues to be printed in the daily newspaper, we will never shake that image .


                               Maui

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering


MacGyver is the only cool engineer I have ever heard of.

Most of the rest resemble an amalgamation of something between Dilbert, a crusty SeaBee, and characters from StarTrek.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

rhodie, I think you are cool!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

me likes this smily..sad the colors aren't in the good order though

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Cyril

Brad

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Leanne, I never would have expected to find a line from one of the closing stanzas of Gray's "elegy" printed on Engineering Tips, and in RED no less ! Perhaps if he were writing today, Gray would have written "perhaps some mute inglorious female here may rest".

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I would say that the best way to encourage women to become engineers would be to stop setting them up for failure.  

I went to a fairly exclusive engineering school with about a 25% female population.  I married a female engineer, have several female engineer friends and work with several famale engineers whom I have much respect for.

One of the problems is that to meet a quota, engineering schools have begun to lower their entrance standards.  I (as a white male) needed a minimum score on entrance exams to get into the school.  I thought that this was reasonable because the minimum score was not extraordinarily difficult and I was getting into a very exlusive school. I did score higher than that and I proceeded to blow through in 4 years with relatively no problems.  During those 4 years I watched several of my friends, some male and some female, struggle, become miserable and flunk out.  I was shocked one day after I had graduated to find that several of them had scored significantly below my minimum requirement.

The perception that there are not enough women in engineering made the school admit just about any girl who had an interest in math or science, regardless of their academic ability.  Engineering is a hard degree and I watched several people smarter than I am flunk out...you have to wonder why you would bring people in who are not cut out for it.

I have no doubt that there are high school girls out there who could be valedictorian at any school in the country.  Emphasis should be put on finding these girls and getting them excited rather than setting up an average high school student for failure.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

2
Having read through this long thread, I'd like to also share my experiences with you... as its a subject I often reflect on.

I am female, and have fairly recently obtained a bachelor in mechanical engineering.  I am canadian.  I am a mother of two boys.

My engineering school had about 10% female, with also the smallest percentages in mechanical engineering.

I do agree that women and men are different - partly because of society and partly because we just are.  I think we will discover just how different we fundamentally are as time passes.  Also as time passes - there will be more female engineers and there will be more male nurses (I do agree with the post that it needs to go both ways).

I think there are some things that can be done to help speed up the process -

Like changing the toy industry so that everything related to the home is not pink.  I'm dying to buy my sons some house related toys - for example the little fisher price playhouse to complete our fisher price little people collection - but its sooo pink!!  I just can't bring myself to buy it for them!!  why is that?  why is pink such a taboo color for boys?

I think that in order for women to succeed in male dominated environments men must take on a stronger role in the household.  Men must also take parental leave -as I'm proud to say my engineer husband did.  This will help in the sense that women who want to have a family will not shy away from male dominated environments.  I was the FIRST employee of the first company I worked for to EVER take parental leave - it was a seven year old company, a boys club.  I was also laid off when I returned.

While unemployed, I was teaching high school math as a substitute teacher.  There was only one male in the department.  The group could talk openly about planning pregnancies, about taking maternity leave.  They - including the male - were a close knit bunch, something I've never seen in the male engineer dominated environment I usually find myself in.  I think that this social aspect is important and is one reason women turn away from engineering.  

one last thing - jokes.  I'm sure most women that have participated in this forum have been the subject of the occasional "harmless" jokes from male coworkers/study groups.  Hahahaha - ok lets get over it, I am a women.  (These jokes need to stop)

So that's my take on the issue!  fyi - I have finally landed another engineering job, and I like it.  However it is yet again, an all male department.  As a young engineer I would love to have a female role model to look up to or even just an equal to bond with.  

Here's to hoping we will soon see more women in engineering, more men in nursing, and more men taking parental leaves.

samv


RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

samv, congrats on landing a new job that you enjoy...

I subbed while I was unemployed as well. Unfortunately, I was not lucky enough to get a long-term math position. I was called for a variety of short-term assignments from primary school through high school. I hated it. Being a sub in Canada may be different, but when I was subbing, it was like being a babysitter.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

leanne - high school math in canada was also like babysitting, and I had to prepare the daily notes, problems and even tests all for the same pay as the sub teacher who just pops in for the day and leaves.  not to mention my classes were difficult ones - two real prof.s had already quit and it was only september!!!  can you believe that!  It sure gave me a new perspective on raising my boys - they will be most respectful and interested students (or else!!)

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Another interesting blurb, the first woman graduate from SMU's engineering school:

http://engr.smu.edu/alumni/alumni_remember.html

I guess my alma mater is obvious now even to those who've never clicked on my profile

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I personally think that men & women generally (not as a hard and fast rule) think differently (as samv put it "I do agree that women and men are different") -- and although I think society affects some development in children, many tests show that small boys and small girls do tend to gravitate toward diffent activities -- again, these are generalities and apply to these "groups" and not individuals...

women (again, generally) navigate by landmark, men by direction (N, S, E, W) --

to get to my point, engineering has historically involved those activities aligned more with the way (most) men's brains are wired than with (most) women...

is this a bad thing?  only if you want to be bad... the result is, fewer women will find this an interesting field to pursue as a career -- the challenge is to encourage those that have such an interest to pursue it... and make it rewarding to them... rewarding to any one who pursues this type of carrer..

I think overall, as mentioned by previous posters, we should make math and science (problem solving) more available, more intersting to ALL kids in the very early years of school;  make summer jobs as interns more available to young women in high school, and encourage and support those that come to work at our companies...

above all else, don't make them "tokens" as happened in the past, don't over compensate them, don't promote them when not deserved, don't hold them above others -- they should, however, be full members of the team... it creates resentment in everyone otherwise...

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

You captured my sentiments exactly pablo.  To go a little further, I think men AS A GENERAL RULE score better on early scholastic math aptitude tests for whatever reason.  If that is true, I don't see any reason we are surprised there are more men than woman in engineering. I certainly don't see any reason to be alarmed about it.  By all means talk to the kids if it makes you feel better. By no means do anything to create an unlevel playing field based upon sex, race etc.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I can only speak from my own experience.

My dad is a civil engineer so he was encouraging when I decided to do mechanical engineering. Mum (and other relatives) was the one who was worry that the work might be too dirty, the environment too male dominated etc.

There was only 3 other females in the class - that made it 10%. I had no problems with the guys in the class, we all got on well. What I found though, was that most of the guys were already quite familiar with mechanical things, from working with their cars, workshop subject at high school etc. I felt that I had much to catch up on in that area. You see I went to a all girls high school and had to endure craft lessons instead of doing cool things in metal class (how I envied my brother!).

Ok so hands-on stuff is only a small part of engineering, but I think it's an important part. I felt that girls were often discourage from doing those hands-on class, discourage from taking things apart and seeing how they works etc. I think the fact that engineering is about applying theory to make/create things should appeal to a lot of female, but nobody told them that's what engineering is. Things are a bit better now I think with awareness programs.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Female make up almost 50% of the population but why not many female engineers? If the work needs field surveying and inspection working under the hot sun, female engineers are in disadvantage and more so if they get married and have kids so career interruption! One suggestion is to encourage them to more into engineering management and be supervisors or managers. They can solve people problems better than male.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

tmc1:

Why should it cause a career interruption having kids? Other than the obvious time off for recovery.

VivK:

I did not attend an all girls school, however, girls were strongly DISCOURAGED from taking shop & such.

pablo02: women (again, generally) navigate by landmark, men by direction (N, S, E, W)

I use both, but I always attributed it to being ambidextrous. Navigating by landmarks alone can be "dangerous" - new roads are built, old buildings are removed by fire or bulldozer, new buildings go up

above all else, don't make them "tokens" as happened in the past, don't over compensate them, don't promote them when not deserved, don't hold them above others -- they should, however, be full members of the team... it creates resentment in everyone otherwise

This is true for any group considered to be a "minority" in any area. It's not fair to anyone to promote based only on gender, race, etcetera - it sets the promotee up for failure and damages the "team" in general.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I strongly agree that hiring or promotion decisions based upon race or gender are blatant forms of discrimination. In the March issue of Advanced Materials & Processes there is an ad for a faculty position at the Colorado School of Mines. The wording that appears at the bottom of this ad is included in almost every advertisement for a full time faculty position regardless of the school: "The Colorado School of Mines is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer and is committed to enhancing the diversity of its faculty and staff, and therefore, encourage applications from women, minorities, veterans, and persons with disabilities". Is this employer establishing a level playing field in terms of their hiring practices?



                                            Maui

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Hey all! I am a female student at the University of Waterloo in Ontario in Mechanical engineering. There are 100ish people in our class and 9 girls. I think im safe to say that it is only the guys that are complaining. The girls get all the attention from the professors and are the first to get Co-op placements and interviews. Out of the 9 girls in my class im pretty sure we had 50% of the interviews for our class, maybe more. (im not sure if you're familiar with the co-op program, it's a pattern of 4 months on school, 4 months in a work placement for 5 years)

I got 10 interviews and 5 job offers. My friend Jen in the class had 13 interviews and 9 job offers! Im actually kinda glad there's not a lot of females in my class, because then it would take away from our uniqueness. :) But i feel that having some females in engineering is important to add diversity in opinions and ideas.

I think someone compared this situation to males in nursing, but i think it is a bit different than that. Females in engineering are commended for being with the best(aka male engineers), where males in nursing get a different reaction.
It's similar to a female playing on the pga tour versus a male playing on the lpga.

Being in the class i definitely feel like i have to be "one of the boys" and have found a new interest in car models.
Maybe Barbie hates math. However, i love math and often find myself helping the boys with it ;)

This forum is awesome. i get to see real engineers at work, and also get an idea of what i want to do when im out of school, or on my next co-op term.

GO LEGO!
Lainey

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

(OP)
Maui,
It's easy to put the verbage out front; much harder to change cultural norms and even unspoken perceptions. I myself can hardly believe that I have caught myself thinking, "Oh, she's blonde, what does she know?" ... immediately before I slapped myself. Now where that could have come from, I haven't the foggiest idea -- certainly not something my parents taught me (though they taught me plenty of other things, some of which have deservedly been discarded).

In other words, "level playing field" is hard enough to achieve by itself, let alone tilting it the other (wrong) way. "Encouraging applications" from minority groups is easy to say; getting job offers extended is where the rubber meets the road. Retention long-term is the rest of the story.

It's evident from reading posts by several women engineers in this forum that propensity towards engineering in girls is demonstrated at a young age. The trick, as some have mentioned, is to encourage the tendency as a viable career option (easier when there are brothers whose toys can be envied, or perceptive dads who can have their daughters help them in the garage).

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Cbiber, if applications are accepted from other properly qualified applicants, but they aren't offered the position because they don't meet the Affirmative Action criteria, then this is unfair. And I have seen this myself. Sometimes in attempting to "level the playing field" by promoting one group of people over another for whatever reason, an unfair advantage is gained by that group of people. Consider the case that was recently tried by the Supreme Court involving the admissions criteria set by the University of Michigan. Undergraduate applicants levied a lawsuit against the University claiming that they were denied admission even though their qualifications exceeded those possessed by minority applicants who were accepted for admission. Apparently, the University gave applicants 20 points toward their total admissions score if they belonged to a minority group. These bonus points made a significant difference in some cases. The Supreme Court ruled that the admission criteria set by the University in this particular aspect of the case was inappropriate, and must be changed. The University did win on some other rulings in the same case.

You state that, "It's evident from reading posts by several women engineers in this forum that propensity towards engineering in girls is demonstrated at a young age. The trick, as some have mentioned, is to encourage the tendency as a viable career option". I believe that fostering a child's enthusiasm for engineering, or science, or whatever they show an apptitude for is behavior that should be encouraged. And this is not limited to boys or girls. Both genders should be included equally. By allowing a child to realize what opportunities are available to them, and supplying appropriate support for them to follow their dreams, I believe that many of the stereotypes associated with particular professions would become obsolete. The question is, how do you get there?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

LOL  @ cbiber

"Oh, she's blonde, what does she know?"

I say this about my son all the time...

"Oh, he's blonde, what does he know?"

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I think the topic, at large, is unworthy of discussion. The needs of Social justice demand that equal opportunities be created for all sexes, colours and religions, and it all ends there.
Thereafter counting the number of females, whites, christians etc in a particular job or profession is simply pointless.

Sorry, couldn't say it politely.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

But, as in the case of affirmative action for African Americans, just providing equal opportunity is not apparently sufficient, as recently seems to have been at least partially upheld by the US supreme court (although as usual you can't quite figure out exactly what they did say). In order to redress the balance, current thinking appears to say that, at least for a while, you have to bias the system in favor of those who have been discriminated against in the past. Sort of like "overshoot" with a servo system.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Lainey

You described it well, 100th students and only 9 girls. I hear you when you say you don't wanna change it because it gives you more opportunities. Though, I think it's not as fair as it might look. You get better chances because you're a girl (and you admitted it) and because there is no many girls in engineering, and men prefer to hire girls (Yes, believe me :-p ). I can understand you like it being this way. Now, just think at your life in 5 years. You'll be working in the field of engineering, in a world largely dominated by men, with no more professor to give you more attention than the other ones. At this time, I guess you'll think different. I may be wrong of course.

Btw, I studied at U of O, Ontario. Not so far from Waterloo

And I'm glad you enforce the power of the LEGO

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

"current thinking appears to say that, at least for a while, you have to bias the system in favor of those who have been discriminated against"

I know you have cited some ruling. I'm curious if this is also your opinion, EM?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Let's face it, given where the "profession" is going I would have a hard time recommending engineering to anyone.  Until we begin to receive the status and respect normally accorded to professionals, most undergraduate engineering programs are going to be populated by people who don't know what their getting into.  I've been in this profession for over 25 years and truly enjoy the creative process that engineering can be.  That said, its still difficult to put up with the disrespect, uncertainty and impersonlity of most engineering positions.  I don't think that engineering education creates "nerds".  Rather, it seems that people with better social and communication skills are more likely to see the profession for what it is, and go elsewhere.

I do think that there are social forces which probably make engineering more attractive to men than women.  Its not just Barbie saying "math is hard".  Its the fact that although sterotypes are changing, girls are still more likely to be given a Barbie, than an erector set, chamistry set, model airplane, etc.  When I was a TA, in the early 1980's, I was given the job of teaching an Engineering Graphics class for freshmen (yes, we actually made drawings with pencil and paper back then).  I was teaching a lab session which dealt with exploded view drawings, to a class of approximately twenty students, four of whom were female.  All four of the women (all of whom were quite intelligent)were having problems with the assignment, while few of the men were.  I asked one of the guys who was breezing through the assignment if he had ever done anything like this before, and he replied, "not exactly, but this is just like the directions which used to come with my model airplanes".

I've worked with, and occasionally for, female engineers and found most of them to be very good engineers.  They also seemed to have much better communication and socialization skills, probably developed out of necessity, than most of their male counterparts.

As far as I'm concerned, what we need to do is to make this craft which we practice into a real profession.  If that can be accomplished, I believe the gender issues will largely take care of themselves as they have in medicine and law.  That's not to say that we shouldn't reach to young women, but first we need something more appealing than just a salary to offer them.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

"Rather, it seems that people with better social and communication skills are more likely to see the profession for what it is, and go elsewhere."

My first reaction... Ouch. A hard criticism of the profession. My 2nd reaction... it's probably not too far off the mark.  Engineering is a great profession as a young engineer.  For middle age it seems there are plateau's tough to break unless at some point you make some lateral/upward transition outside of engineering roles.  I think if I could I would.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering


Vivk said:
"What I found though, was that most of the guys were already quite familiar with mechanical things, from working with their cars, workshop subject at high school etc. I felt that I had much to catch up on in that area."

-- I totally agree, and it's very unfortunate.  I think this is the major downside of our culture where girls get pink dolls and boys get "construction" toys.  On the flipside - how many of you men have felt uncomfortable "babying" your little ones(comforting, bathing etc)?  Are men less capable of doing this?  Absolutely not - they just have never done it before.


many said:
boys score better at math (and sciences) than girls

-- I think the opposite is often true, and pure science programs in many schools now have MORE women than men.  Applied Sciences is lagging behind (majorly) and I think this hands on thing is the major reason.  Young girls and women are not encouraged to become comfortable with hammers and drills etc. and thus feel more comfortable taking their skills to the pure sciences than to the applied sciences.


Lainey said:
"Im actually kinda glad there's not a lot of females in my class, because then it would take away from our uniqueness. :) But i feel that having some females in engineering is important to add diversity in opinions and ideas.

I think someone compared this situation to males in nursing, but i think it is a bit different than that. Females in engineering are commended for being with the best(aka male engineers), where males in nursing get a different reaction.
It's similar to a female playing on the pga tour versus a male playing on the lpga. "


Although I completely disagree with a great deal of Lainey's post I'm glad she brought this to the table.  I think a lot of women in engineering have felt a tinge of what she is saying - about liking all the attention etc.  I think this is a VERY short sighted view because in the end it will come back and bite you probably in more ways than one.

To become a respected engineer you have to work hard and be dedicated.  You have to play on the same field as the boys - if you don't they will surpass  you.  Although I'm not totally against this "biased scale" to help balance things out, it needs to be done very carefully and in ways that do not unfairly treat the "majority" (white male).

Now onto the nursing thing - as I said in a previous post I think the world needs to change in both ways with women having the chance to enter male dominated fields AND vice versa.  I do not at all agree with comparing this with the LPGA because nursing is a very important career - not a less competitive league.  Our society seems to demean everything that is traditionally female territory - from secretaries to nurses.  It seems that being a forklift driver is more highly regarded than these traditionally female careers are.  

In answer to Leanne's question that asked "Why should it cause a career interruption having kids? Other than the obvious time off for recovery"  Because children are of the utmost importance, they deserve quality, and in the beginning lenghty, time with their parents (BOTH parents).  Here in Canada we can take up to a full year of combined maternity and parental leave.  Child rearing is another "female career" that gets a lot less recognition than it should.

...  sorry to come down on you so hard Lainey!  I do hope you understand that this tidal wave of "specialness" will not carry you very far in life.

Best regards,
samv

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

"this tidal wave of "specialness" will not carry you very far in life."

Hmm, /cynical mode on/ it'll splash her up against the glass ceiling round here /cynical mode off/.

So far as the recruitment of women into engineering goes - in another thread many of us have said we would not recommend it as a career, given reasonable, equally liked alternatives, given the current and likely future state of play in the USA in particular, and the West in general. But we are more than happy to have female company on the sinking ship!

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

"But we are more than happy to have female company on the sinking ship!"

Amen to that!

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

(OP)
Just sad that the "sinking ship" is taking our jobs with it -- jobs that we obviously all like, and that some of us (male and female both) think we're suited for!

Meanwhile, I've heard a lot lately about how there is (or will be) a "shortage" of engineers and scientists ... I'm not seeing it (see thread on jobs moving overseas, this forum).

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

If its a "sinking ship", then making sure that women are encouraged to join the profession is a bit like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic isn't it?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Plus they'll grab all the lifeboats!

Or if you are being serious, yes.


Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

It's worse than that. It's like giving them a ticket for passage...

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Binary : Not quite, because when women were given tickets for the Titanic, nobody knew it was going to sink !

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Good point here EnglishMuffin. Are we some kind of monsters then? Offering tickets for a trip on a sinking boat?

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

cbiber wrote:" I've heard a lot lately about how there is (or will be) a "shortage" of engineers and scientists ... I'm not seeing it (see thread on jobs moving overseas, this forum)."

Cyril suggested this, and certainly engineering student numbers are down in several countries, over the last decade. In Australia we are having difficulty recruiting experienced engineers, of specific types, but that is partly because we don't train enough technical stream engineers up. On the other hand people who are out of work in the USA and the UK do seem to be finding it hard to find relevant jobs, locally. Perhaps it is a global imbalance, rather than a shortage as such.

Maybe we should pursue this in the other thread?

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Yeah, that would be an interesting topic

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

cbibber

To address your comment on the "engineering shortage". The "shortage" is invented by colleges to keep the seats filled and management to keep the supply high and salaries low.

The following is a quote from an article I've read:
"The engineering shortage crisis is a myth promoted by greedy corporations seeking relaxed rules for imported labor and universities seeking lucrative government grants."

The full article is found at:
http://www.roundtable.com/Critical_Path/volume4/critical-path-issue-4-6.html#1

Engineers are their own worst enemies when it comes to promoting the status and pay of the "profession". This is one of the reasons why I support P.E. registration. If there is no formal definition of "Engineer" anyone can claim the title. I've seen companies (and the military) give the title to people with no formal engineering education or any depth of experience. Companies will give you any title you want as long as you don't expect more pay to go along with the title.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

dannym
You have it right.  There was a guy named Irwin Freest with the same ideals who ran for president of the IEEE several times in the 1980s. he was nominated by petition and was never a canidate of the establishment.  The IEEE at the time ran one canidate for president, a canidate selected by the insiders ( all management and academians).
The IEEE though he was terrible and urged members not to vote for him. They said he would turn the IEEE into a union.
Actually he was right.  I quite the IEEE because I got tired of being charged $ 100 + per year to vote in their sham electrions.  

If you read this link you can see the IEEE is still afraid of him ( even though he's dead)
http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pubs/newsletters/npss/0602/fractious.html
 There may have been some Freest suporters involved in the case of the Anthropology professor at Long Beach State in California giving his lectrues in Italian.  Students complained about the italian, but he said " The engineering school has professors who don't lecture in english, I have checked the rules and there is no requirement"  At the time LBS had some Chineese profs or grad students who spoke english very poorly.  When engineering complained nothing was done.  The anthropology professor got more publicity.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

2
Now that I've had kids and thus have had a chance to observe little girls and little boys up close, I have to agree with Haf that men and women are "wired up" differently. So long as there is no discrimination, glass ceilings, prejudice etc. involved, so what if more men than women choose engineering and more women than men choose nursing? Let people do what they like doing, regardless of whether it meets someone else's "quota" or not.  

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Back to the original question, I think one reason there are fewer women in engineering is related to the  observable porperty that when high school age girls are in the same math and science class as boys, most of them stop competing and jsut fade out.

This was directly proven in England about 15 yrs ago, when they tried to figure out why the only girls that earned college scholarships to math and science colleges were soley from all girl high schools. When they  deliberately separated girl math + science classes from boy classes in co-ed schools, they obtained the result that the girls would then score much higher than those in  the co-ed classes, and would obtain an equal liklihood of obtaining a scholarship.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

as Davefitz says, in the UK the lack of women engineers (and women scientists) is due to the way that girls tend not to do maths & science beyond 16 in the UK.  There are all sorts of explainations for this:
 Girls tend to prefer course work type subjects
 Girls don't like the "right or wrong" aspects of science & maths and prefer subjective subjects like English or History
 Girls lack women role models and maths & science teachers are often male (this was empahsised to me at school , where teh head of Physiscs, a woman noted that if she taught the 16 year old class physics, more girls tended to choose to do physics post 16 that if one of her male collegues was timetabled to do the 16 year old class).
 Girls don't pick up the idea that maths & science carrers are for them (look at the carers advice pages of Glamour or Cosmoplitan- it's all how to be a better PA type stuff)

Having said that, in the old industry where I work, women engineers are like gold dust to employers, masters course admissions officers and so on, and many employers and industry organisations are working hard to make things beter for their women engineers- the SPE has a woman's networking section, my old employer Schlumberger had WISE-"Women in Schluberger Everywhere", which despite its awful name was very useful, I'm told.  There is the occasional dinosaur at the wellsite who "won't take no orders from a girly" (I had this guy particular guy NRB'd), and it takes a strong character to be the only woman amongst 90 or so roughty toughty drillers.....

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

2
I'm all for equality between the sexes, but the UK is in danger of developing an unhealthy level of discrimination. For example, there are a number of awards which are exclusively for achievements by women in engineering. Why? I've worked with a number of female engineers, and most of them were capable of winning an award judged against any of their peers. So why discriminate? One colleague refused to accept an award for the most promising young female engineer in the company, protesting that by judging her solely against her female colleagues, the implication was that she was less able than her male peers and had to be judged against a different, weaker, set of criteria. Had she been judged against all the staff in the company, she would quite probably have won anyway, and she knew it.

Taking DrillerNic's observation above "women engineers are like gold dust to employers, masters course admissions officers and so on", I have to ask 'why?' once more. In my industry - power generation - there are relatively few female engineers. We have desperate trouble recruiting good engineers of either sex; a good female engineer would have no problem landing a position over a less qualified or experienced male engineer. If the reverse situation was true, I would be bitterly opposed to the position going to the female engineer purely to meet some politically correct agenda. There are bigger problems in our profession to address than trying achieve someone's idea of a perfect 50/50 balance between the sexes.





 



------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

2
Attracting more young women to this profession, given the over-supply situation in Canada at the moment, is tantamount to abuse.  Goes for young men too- it's not really a gender-specific issue- but I do feel for the young women more because they're being actively recruited.  It's a hard realization when they graduate and find there's no job waiting for them, no job after six months...and student loans that need to be paid back...  

These young women shouldn't be given any guilt about the need for female trail-blazers in the engineering field- they should be given honest evidence about the real prospects for employment suiting their skills and education when they graduate, at levels of compensation which justify the investment of effort.  People should let them make up their own minds and STOP recruiting.

As to having more company on the sinking ship, I guess if a young woman loves engineering and shows enough intellect and drive to be good at it, there's no reason to stop her from pursuing her dream- but we have a responsibility to make sure she's realistic before she enters the program.

As to the issue of wasting talent, we're turning away kids with 90% averages from engineering schools as it is.  Engineering is education as training for entry into a profession, not the "new liberal arts education".  If universities believe that engineering education is the latter, they'd better 'fess up to the students in the first week of 1st year!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Well-said ScottyUK

But in the politically correct world we live in social engineering seems to take priority over real engineering!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

ScottyUK:

Isn't it ironic that in trying to achieve equality, we are building discrimination into the system?  At one time equality was about judging people based on relevant criteria rather than on some other inconsequential attribute (like sex, race,...)  Now it's become about having some percentage representation rather than hiring the best candidate in every situation.

It's sad.

Dave

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Dporte and ScottyUK, I believe that sex, race, religeous affiliation, etc. should not be factors in the selection of a candidate for a given position. But these are precisely the criteria used by affirmative action to achieve the required quotas. I agree it is ironic that our policymakers have worked toward the goal of reducing discrimination in the workplace by implementing the same discriminatory practices that they deplore. It doesn't make much sense, does it?


                                            Maui

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

A good example is fire fighters. In the UK the physical tests new applicants have to pass are relaxed for women to give them a chance. Recruiters are under immense pressure to reach targets.

Not much reassurance for heavier people who need to be carried down a ladder to escape a burning building!

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

There's nothing wrong with observing the advantages of a system. There are some advantages to being a female engineer. It's not about batting eyelashes and showing cleavage, it's about being unusual and therefore memorable. If there are four of us saying clever things in a meeting, no one will necessarily remember who exactly said what--except for me, because more often than not I'm the only female in the room, and so people remember. People who met me once will usually remember me the next time, so it's easier for me to cultivate professional relationships.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hope more women don't come in to lose me my advantage, and I don't think that's what anyone else on this thread meant, but I certainly don't mind having the advantage. It makes up for "Aww...do you need help adjusting your hardhat?" Or having my substantial wordsmithing of a major document be characterized as "keeping everyone in line and making the copies" while the guy who developed the word-processing template for the headers and margins was given credit for "handling the writing".

To those who feel that as long as there is no discrimination we shouldn't look at demographics--those numbers may or may not be a symptom of something wrong at an earlier stage than the hiring process. I don't believe there's enough biological difference between men and women to account for the differences in professions, and that there's a pattern in girls' upbringing that leads them to choose (of their own otherwise free will) fields other than engineering.

I think a lot of boys wind up going to engineering school as a default option, not because they're necessarily drawn to it. (How many high school students really understand what engineers do? I didn't.) Engineering isn't the default option for girls. Girls have to be a lot more actively interested in it to wind up there.

Hg

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I’ve followed this thread for some time.

I’d like to add my opinion.

Judging by my children (I’ll admit it is a small sample of the total population), girls take a career decision more seriously than boys do. My daughter researched many different careers and picked the one she felt was best. She chose Pharmacy.

She was interested in Environmental Engineering and even applied to an Engineering School and would have received a generous scholarship. She rejected Engineering due to the lower pay, the job instability and the projections of limited growth.

My sons did very little research and went into medicine for vague reasons (largely my encouragement). They did little research.

I don’t believe that stereotypes keep women from going into Engineering.  They entered other traditionally male fields in large numbers and had great success. The career prospects keep them from going into Engineering. The stereotypes, however, do keep boys going into Engineering. Boys mature later than girls. A high school girl is better able to make career decisions than a boy. A boy is more reactive in his decisions.

If Engineering had more to offer, women would flock to the profession. (Actually Engineering is more a series of jobs than a profession.) Women are intelligent and are making informed rational career decisions. It would be wrong to try to indoctrinate them to go into Engineering. We need to change Engineering to attract women.

To address the questions asked in the first contribution to this thread:

-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?

Women are pursuing careers with more promise.

-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)

Women are coming to an “epiphany” as to the true nature of Engineering and are switching to a more desirable career.

-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?

Improve the prospects of Engineering. If engineering offered comparable pay, job security, professional status and was a growing field, women would enter the field in large numbers.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Hg,

You said.

‘I don't believe there's enough biological difference between men and women to account for the differences in professions, and that there's a pattern in girls' upbringing that leads them to choose (of their own otherwise free will) fields other than engineering.’

I disagree; it’s nothing to do with upbringing and has everything to do with physical and biological differences. For some reason it seems to be politically incorrect to talk about differences in race and sex.

I watched a program on the discovery channel that showed men and women’s brains are physically different and not just different sizes.

Why are all the best racing drivers men?
Why are all the best heavyweight boxers black?
Why are all the best snooker players white?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to discourage selective recruitment based on race and sex and instead encourage people develop whatever talents they were born with.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Chris9 :

While I do agree that selective recruitment based on race and sex is not right - I do not agree that society has yet reached the point where the difference in women and men's behaviour is simply due to biological differences.  I strongly believe that women still shy away from the male dominated hands on careers because they were less encouraged to use their hands (and brains) to build things as children (and even as young adults).  Rather than toy hammers and legos the overwhelming majority of girls had (and still have from what I've seen) dolls and strollers etc.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Hello All!

I agree with you completely dannym.

Comparing young women to young men, I would have to say that the young men tend to have a less realistic view of the world.  

I also think that the education of young boys includes more manipulation - if not outright "brainwashing" - designed to make them more competitive and as a consequence more controllable.  They are easy prey for unscrupulous recruiters and will eagerly jump at "pie in the sky" promises that that most young women would see right through.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Men have evolved over thousands of years to be the competitive and women have evolved to be more social. Engineering requires good spatial judgement so does hunting prey.

Men and women are very different, have different tastes and different choices of career. Why try to change human nature?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Oh, okay...so if I don't like makeup and other girly things and instead prefer to hang around in a hardhat, that means there's something wrong with me?

I'll tell you why it's un-PC to talk about biological differences between men and women. Because once such a difference is declared to be normal, those of us who fall on the wrong side will have been declared to be abnormal.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Dannym, well said. But I believe that you may have oversimplified the situation. In your post you state that," Women are intelligent and are making informed rational career decisions." I do not dispute this. But you seem to imply that men are not as intelligent as their female counterparts, and are not making rational career decisions. I have taught an engineering course for the last 7 consecutive years at Syracuse University, and have not been able to discern the differences that you state between the sexes. The women that I encounter who study engineering do so because they are drawn to it for the same reasons that the men are drawn to it - they enjoy it. It represents a challenge to their intellect to solve difficult problems. And engineers enjoy a challenge. The career aspects of the profession do not really come into consideration until the last two years of the educational process, unless they have a mentor such as yourself who can provide them with the benefit of your experience. Perhaps your children are the exception rather than the rule.  

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

HgTx,

This topic is supposed to be about why women don't like engineering, not about what is normal or abnormal. I was merely pointing out that physical and biological differences are one the main factors of career choice.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Maui,

I'm sure that I simplified it. Also, I admitted that I only have 3 kids to judge by.

However, I am convinced that women enter into a career choice far more informed than men.  From the kids I’ve known, (admittedly me and my friends and my kids and their friends), girls take a career choice more seriously. They project further into the future, to the time when they are older and raising a family, etc. They research, talk, shadow professionals, etc.  It is an indisputable fact that women, in general, mature earlier than men. At 17 to 18 years of age this “maturity gap” is pretty significant. I’m speaking of maturity, not intelligence.

There is no substitute for intelligence, just as there is no cure for stupidity. Intelligence and stupidity are evenly distributed through both the male and female populations. Maturity at the time of high school graduation is sharply skewed toward the female population.

If 30 years ago, engineering was the same as it is now I hope I would have been smart enough to pick something a better profession. I enjoy engineering. I hate the low pay (relative to other professions), the low respect and the job insecurity.

If the prospects for engineering were better, women would be attracted to engineering. As it is the best and the brightest are pursuing more promising futures.

In general,

Some people seem to imply that males are better suited to be engineers. I don’t agree. I’ve known good women engineers and bad women engineers. Likewise, I’ve known good men engineers and bad men engineers.

I think women are discouraged by career prospects in engineering relative to other professions.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

'I think women are discouraged by career prospects in engineering relative to other professions'.

I think men and women are discouraged by the career prospects. In the UK women are actively encouraged to become engineers by the professional institutions, universities and business. This has little effect on increasing numbers, everyone has their own theories but the trends of the general population speak for themselves. For the record the few female engineers I have met were often chosen for promotion and were amongst the best in the company.

If men are not indeed better suited to a career in engineering (general population not individual cases) then where are all the women engineers?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Chris9 - Some women that would like to be engineers are turned off by exactly that kind of attitude - that men are better suited to be engineers.  In the engineering world, women must integrate in an environment that is built and managed mostly by men.  All men need to truly believe that women in general are just as well suited as men to be engineers to create a welcoming environment for the technicaly inclined ladies.  

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Not all men I have met, be they engineers or not, were well suited to be engineers.

Gender may make a person better or worse suited for a profession. Social differences because of gender may also make a person better or worse suited for any profession.

This still does not make all people of one gender suitable or unsuitable for any profession.

All it does is make it a greater chance that any one gender will dominate a profession.

I have known good women engineers and good male nurses. In any specific case gender should not matter as long as the person has the necessary other qualities necessary for the profession.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Samv,

In my experience this is already the case. The engineering environment is very welcoming for women. I have the utmost respect for women engineers and as far as I’m aware women engineers are admired by both sexes both within engineering and outside engineering. There are reasons why men dominate the engineering profession and women dominate nursing and like it or not gender makes a difference. People on this thread keep quoting individual cases but I am talking about the general majority.

Do you think women in general are better suited to nursing than men?

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Many engineering companies are rightfully called "boys clubs", and females will never succeed in these environments.  And, several smallish companies have only men working there, and a female walking into one of these shops will often, if nothing else, be undiscreetly eyeballed in all the wrong places.

In my opinion, the engineering environment is NOT "very welcoming to women" - only certain modern engineering companies of a certain size could be describe as "welcoming".

And no, I do not think we should believe in ANY sweeping generalization of what sexes and races should be better at.  It needs to be left to each individual to decide for him or herself.

I will add that I know of men who have gone thru difficulties in integrating in the nursing environment because of "unwelcoming" women  - yes it must go both ways.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

Your experience about the engineering environment is very different to mine; maybe this is because I have always worked for larger companies. Perhaps a more important question, does it matter that one sex dominates a particular industry? I really can’t see any benefit in attempting to control this by selective recruiting based partially on gender or race to meet targets. If anyone thinks it is important to recruit more male nurses then in my opinion this is sexist because this implies that gender is an important factor to be considered.

Other industries do in fact make sweeping generalisations particularly insurance. I pay higher motor insurance premiums because I am male, no other reason.

RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

The reason it matters is that when an industry is heavily dominated by one kind (sex or race) of person...  it often makes it difficult for people of another kind to succeed.

Selective recruiting to meet targets based on sex or race is not the answer, however... in the short term it is a method that will help tip the scale.  
A better method in my opinion is to work with young people to help them make career choices that suit their true personality, and, should this choice be an "uncommon" one -arm them with some resources and tools to help them get past the hurdles and deal with the issues big or small.



RE: Encouraging women to enroll in engineering

I have worked for one large engineering company that rarely would interview women applicaints and neraly never hire any, and a meidum size engineering company which had actively sought out and hired  an equal number of women engineers.

In terms of opportunities for women, it seems to be entirely up to the management of the company; I have seen both extremes. In the first case, the management would not interview any women ( or any other minorities) for any engineering jobs because tehy were given to the legal opinion that if they interviewed the minority  but did not hire them, they would be sued for discrimination, and they  thought  best way to avoid such a suit was to refuse to interview such persons. In this interpretation , the opportunities for women and minorities was dierctly reduced by laws which were originally meant to imrpove the opportunities.

In the cae where the company actively sought out women and minorities, they perfomed as wel as any other engineer would , and the atmosphere was healthier.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources