Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
(OP)
Now remember this is an ethics forum, . . .and no one will come knocking on your door regardless of how you answer.
How many of you, who consider yourselves "industry exempt engineers", have dispensed what you consider enginnering advice to this, or any other forum of people outside your own company?
For the moment, please let's dispense with the semantics of whether advice is "scientific" vs "metaphysics" vs "applied science" vs "engineering" in nature and scope. Another way to put the question is: "How many of you, who have offered engineering advice, are actually licensed to do so by your local state, province or territory?"
Some of you may already be a step or two ahead of the argument and might claim "freedom of speech" is a supreme doctrine which serves to quash state legislated prohibitions against practicing professional engineering without a license. I'm sure there will be plenty of argument why an individual's rights in this matter supercede the common good as expressed by the legislature, but let's have a show of hands how many of you believe that much of the engineering advice offered herein involves illeagl practice?
Regards,
PS: I'm already waiting for the quick wit who will point out that PE's, P.Eng's and CE's licensed in their own jurisdictions might be construed as practicing outside their area by participating within the broad reach of this electronic forum.
How many of you, who consider yourselves "industry exempt engineers", have dispensed what you consider enginnering advice to this, or any other forum of people outside your own company?
For the moment, please let's dispense with the semantics of whether advice is "scientific" vs "metaphysics" vs "applied science" vs "engineering" in nature and scope. Another way to put the question is: "How many of you, who have offered engineering advice, are actually licensed to do so by your local state, province or territory?"
Some of you may already be a step or two ahead of the argument and might claim "freedom of speech" is a supreme doctrine which serves to quash state legislated prohibitions against practicing professional engineering without a license. I'm sure there will be plenty of argument why an individual's rights in this matter supercede the common good as expressed by the legislature, but let's have a show of hands how many of you believe that much of the engineering advice offered herein involves illeagl practice?
Regards,
PS: I'm already waiting for the quick wit who will point out that PE's, P.Eng's and CE's licensed in their own jurisdictions might be construed as practicing outside their area by participating within the broad reach of this electronic forum.





RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I believe the nature of a forum such as this is not covered by the restrictions of licensure. This is a peer-to-peer discussion group. No one is selling their services to the general public.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Actually, what I'm really curious about is where the "design & prototype" shops fit in. There are a lot of folks out there doing design & prototype work without calling it "engineering." You've also got contract people doing drawings for "engineering" firms but as independent contractors. Are those groups of people practicing "engineering"?
ps - Mr. Tick, sometimes getting someone to feel is harder (and sometimes more important) than getting them to think, particularly for us techno/science guys (in the gender-neutral sense).
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Me. I work in an industry that relies on industry exemption.
I do not have the equivalent of a PE.
I don't just dispense advice, I have designed safety related systems for people, in my own time.
Cheers
Greg Locock
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I'll even provide an opinion now. I feel that the licensure process in the US needs to be updated. There are too many technological fields out there that individuals have put a lot of time and effort in to learn only to find out that there is not a place for them within the realm of Licensed Professional Engineer. For other than the "Bread and Butter" fields of engineering, I do not think that the NSPE has been able to keep pace.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
For what it is worth Binary, I guess thats what I will be forced to do eventually, call myself a "design and prototype" person.........
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
The question which I believe should be asked is whether the advice offered on a forum such as this can in any way be considered to fall under regulation as the "practice of engineering".
Without a lot of knowledge of PE law, my gut-reaction first take common sense conclusion is that it is not. No-one purports to sign off or certify any design on this forum to my knowledge.
But yet surely the plaintiff's lawyers would have room to question it if some design or action which was influenced by eng-tips falls flat on it's face and causes damage or injury. One thing I note is that some members sign every post with PE. I would not do that myself. In my opinion it makes the common sense conclusion more of a grey area.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I suppose the answer is to turn to the local legislation for a definition of "engineering" and the "practice of engineering". I'll tell you the one in the statutes governing my practice seem to be as long as your arm and cover just about every kind of endeavor.
Maybe a simpler approach would be to consider if your services (including advice) to persons outside your employer's company, if adopted, has the slightest possibility of resulting in harm or damages to members of the Public (including the person who adopted your advice). Given the technology, it's easy to anonymously steal huge amounts of intellectual property such as music and movies, etc., but it still ain't right. Likewise, it's possible to practice engineering covertly and anonymously in these fora, . . .isn't it equally wrong?
Regards,
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I don't consider helping my fellow engineers (and getting help as well) to be practicing engineering. If I point out a procedure on how to make a calculation, or point someone to a book or code that is relevant to a problem they are working on, I wouldn't call that engineering. Ultimately, the one asking should be the one to go and determine the answer for themselves.
I do think that it is prudent for everyone on the board, when they make a response to a question, to take a look at the nature of the question. There have been times where I've responded to someone by basically telling them that they don't appear to be qualified to try and do the work that they are doing and should contact and outside engineering firm to solve the problem. It's a judgement call on when to make that kind of response, but, I've found it's getting easier. Basically, I ask myself - does this sound like someone who does the work that I do, and is maybe looking at a new application or some special variation, or, does it sound like some poor guy stuck in the back of a refinery who knows nothing about what I do but has been put on by his boss to do this job?
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Stealing music and providing engineering-related advice have nothing in common that I see other than that they use technology.
Other than objections which might arise from an overreaching interpretation of an overreaching law regarding practice of engineering, what is wrong with what we do on this site?
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I consider the "practice of engineering" to be much more than a mere exchange of ideas.
We are professionals discussing ideas, and teaching and learning from each other. Let me work with this analogy.
As bright as each of us might consider ourselves, I think we can all agree that we are not capable in one thread of summarizing all of the concepts encompassed in even one engineering class.
By your logic, the mere discussion of these ideas seems to constitute the "practice of engineering". Extending this logic, it is a grand crime indeed for anybody to dare teach concepts as important as a course in Solid Mechanics without being a professional engineer. Yet there are plenty of professors and TA's (I would expect a majority) who do not hold PE's. To my knowledge, these professors do not qualify under "industry exemption"; rather their work (educating) is construed as something fundamentally different than what PE's do on a regular basis. It is also essentially what we do on this site. I have yet to use my stamp to signoff on anybody's approach, and I have certainly never received money for my opinions and suggestions.
A different analogy--if I have a discussion with my colleagues about something, and they go off and follow up on their project based on this discussion, I have still not "signed off" on anything. I am not liable for their actions, as I have not reviewed what they have produced. How is that different than posting on this site?
If I state to somebody on this site that some approach is unequivocally done to code, and "signoff" on their approach, that MIGHT constitute "practice of engineering". But I don't recall ever seeing something to that extent.
Brad
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I think you answered the question very well....There are a lot of posts in this site that clearly are uniformed and I think we come down hard on them for dispensing advice....I have answered a lot of questions, but not dispensed any advice on this site...there are those that do dispense advice and I do not think that is right...and the site disclaimer covers that...and we correct it as we find it....
BTW, educators are exempt under most, if not all, state PE laws....I was tought all my engineering classes by PH.D, PE's...Thats kinda odd for me to hear not every engineering instructor is a PE....not that that is bad, its just new to me...
I will give you a good example of not providing engineering advice...there was a structural question posted in a forum that alluded to complete building failure...anyone responding to the post would have been rendering advice based on the question.....this post was deleted because that is not what we do here....
We shouldnt render advice....that goes for exempt and non exempt engineers...answering questions, guidance...offering examples...finding references....that is what we do...
and we use common sense to do it,,,at least we should.....
BobPE
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
This still does not answer the question of what constitutes the practice of engineering. That is discipline specific. In my opinion, protecting the public safety is the prime directive, and we engineers do owe a standard of care with regard to "public" statements made, whether in this forum or to a television news crew.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
the defination you are searching for is defined by each state in the US...each one is slightly different...someone can face charges in any state where they dispense engineering advice no matter which state they reside...some states the boards do proscute, some, others do for them....
I look at this site as FUBU...For us by us....it is not public since the rules state only engineering professionals can join....There are some very tough topics to discuss in here and I think expressing yourself in any way is fine..as long as you communicate....
I would think a court could get our records from this site and prosecute us...I dont think a lot of us realize this....But I also think its the price we pay in order to advance a stagnent and disconnected profession...
BobPE
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
We all know email is an imperfect means of communication. How easy it is to be misconstrued. How can you be sure the person seeking advice has accurately and fully described their problem and circumstances? It's almost a given that something important has been omitted.
You wouldn't give specific advice over the phone on a complex, potentially hazardous problem - you'd say "I'll come round and take a look."
Cheers,
John.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
get over it and contribute, or you are right, you may not fit in....but please don't speak for everyone....
BobPE
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I've no doubt that our hosts will delete my little jab in no time at all.
Based on the "professional" requirement, you could certainly use my post against me to boot me. It was definitely unprofessional.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
just contribute...no one is looking to boot anyone...exept maybe the lawyers that visit the site from time to time....
Your actions are picked up by others in here and it may make them choose not to contribute also...and that would be a bad thing...
You have good things to say, just say them...don't get frustrated...as most engineers seem to do......
For every time someone bashed me, you would think I would have thrown my computer away and hid...LOL
BobPE
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I don't consider any of the eng-tips forums to be for "professional" engineers only, if it was we would not have such excellent computer related tips, work related tips, geotechnical tips, law related tips, etc.
I always assume that this site is for the engineering team as a whole. I certainly have never taken RDK or Dannym to mean that they want "professional" engineers only at this site and would expect that if they ever displayed that level of bigotry, then I suspect that they would be booted out of the forum. They certainly do express strong opinions on what consitutes a "Professional" engineer, as is their right.
I just realised that I have never looked at the site rules, tsk naughty me, where are they?
regards
sc
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
I used one definition of a professional that included the professional body being self-regulating, have a right to title and a right to practice. Engineering as practiced in the US does not fall under this strict definition.
I’m sorry if some people take this as a personal insult. Its simply one definition of what a profession is and it was impartially applied to the US practice of engineering.
This was raised in the Lack of Respect thread and I was suggesting that the lack of professional status as defined above is one of the problems facing US engineering.
I never said or implied that the board should be limited to those who do fall under this definition. If you check some of my other posts you will find that I actually support non-engineering types who post an intelligent question and make an effort to understand the response. (You will also find that I am quick to red flag those that are obviously students or non-engineers looking someone to solve their problems.)
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
The issue is that the public no longer cares about this or us at all. The lowest NBA scorer garners more respect and salary, without a license to play, because that's what people think is important now.
When was the last time you heard anyone telling their children to do well in school so that they can become engineers? Engineers and scientists are nerdy looosers in the eyes of the public and have been since the end of the Apollo program. The public wants their children to be doctors and lawyers, not for respect, but to make money.
TTFN
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
enginnering ?
You don't really expect me to admit I might have in the past ever been culpable of said issue, do you?
I am a law school drop out & I work in an industry that relies on industry exemption.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
The intent of this site is not limited to PE's; it is intended for people who are practicing engineering. (Professional is also appreciated).
Cheers,
Brad
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Where does it say engineer professionals only, or no students, lawyers, etc.?
Regards,
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
FAQ731-376
Also some here
http://www.tecumsehgroup.com/administration.htm
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Also on the upper left corner of your screen is
"Eng-Tips - Technical Work Forums for Engineering Professionals"
No you are not a theno-thingy. It is hard to find.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
This site is what most would call an anonymous posting service, meaning that anyone can log on and create a username. There are only a hand full of us who use our real names, but most people come up with some cute name so no one knows who they really are.
This site is also on the Intenet, which means that it can be viewed from anywere in the world. Unless you have some kind of global license, which I don't think any of us have, there will be somewere that you are not licensed to practice engineering.
I can appreciate the discusion from an academic standpoint, but I don't think there is any practical need for this. No one on this site will every be prosecuted for performing engineering services without a license since that's not what anyone is doing. The most important thing to remeber is that the law doesn't say you can't talk about engineering, or teach engineering, it states you can't perform engineering services.
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
"Unless you have some kind of global license, which I don't think any of us have, there will be somewere that you are not licensed to practice engineering."
That in itself only proves that there may be violations in some parts of the world, not that what is done here is right.
"No one on this site will every be prosecuted for performing engineering services without a license since that's not what anyone is doing."
Based upon analysis of laws under which jurisdiction?
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
While searching the internet for info about a problem I was trying to understand and solve, I found a link to a discussion in one of the forums offered here. I first entered as a visitor but found the posts by the other members to be of benefit and decided to become a member.
In one respect, I don't think what we do here is different than an individual submitting an article for publication in one of the trade journals. That's the way it used to be done. It is an open discussion with the opportunity for peer review and critique. I've never published any material but I don't think you have to be a licensed engineer to publish. Maybe the only difference is we don't have an editor checking before publishing.
I've seen the link to FAQ731-376 and thought it was reasonable but I've not understood whether that was actually official policy here. It appears to me that it is just another member's perception of "How to Post Questions Without Getting Red Flagged". No disrespect to the member who submitted the post as a FAQ but can't anyone do that?
Also, I must confess that I'm just now seeing the web page for "Administration". I can't say that I'm a Vendor or a Regulator (though I'm not quite sure what is meant by Regulator) and that all of the discussions in which I have participated have been in regards to services or products offered by such. Does that mean I have not been using these forums as intended?
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
The "official policy" is that stated in the Site Policies (upper-right-hand corner of your screen). You are correct in noting that FAQ's can be written by anybody; although the FAQ is not "official" policy, it was written by a member who helps management set site policies.
What makes a "flaggable offense" is sometimes like pornography--it's hard to describe but you know it when you see it. This particular FAQ was trying to convey some of the issues which have over the years been expressed as unacceptable behavior by various members.
Brad
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
Thank you, PM, for posing the question that has been hovering in my mind for several months. I recently made my application for certification as an Engineering Technologist from my provincial organization, and have been mulling over their ethical guidelines, particularly in regards to my prolific posting on Eng-Tips, ever since. It's not a PE organization, because I don't have a degree to qualify for that.
I have given advice very freely in the past, and in considerable detail in some instances; for example, I have explained to somebody how to proof-load his wing. In light of the code of ethics I'll soon adhere to, I wonder if that was a good idea at the time. BobPE argues that giving detailed advice is not what Eng-Tips is for. The code of ethics requires me to offer advice that's based solely on adequate technical knowledge. In this case, I offered my advice without any knowledge of what the wing looked like, how it was made or attached to the fuselage.
Item 11 of FAQ731-366 bails us all out of the liability for any advice we give, no matter how detailed it is. Further, nobody paid me for the advice, and I have never tried to pass myself off as a Professional Engineer giving approval to anybody's project. I see no avenue for any legal liability, and the absence of any company name at the bottom of my postings is deliberate: the opinions I express are my own, with no implied "authority". (I see other members put their whole names and companies in their signature lines, and wonder if they have to deal with "flak" as a result).
So it boils down to "is it right"? Again, I can go back to the code of ethics. Principle 10 is to "promote public knowledge and appreciation of applied science and engineering...". That sounds most like what we're all trying to do. I'll avoid getting carried away with it from now on.
STF
RE: Raise Your Hand - "Industry Exempt Engineers"
1. Am I qualified to give this advice?
2. Has my client completely explained and do I completely understand the problem at hand?
3. Is it worth the risks?
The ethical answers to these questions are often different than the legal answers.
Licensing is an attempt to provide an objective opinion about #1. However, my license is in mechanical design, which covers a vast area of knowledge. Am I qualified in some of them? Yes. All of them? No. Do I know everything there is to know about even one of those areas? No. So I'm put in the position of deciding on the level of my own expertise in a particular area on a regular basis. Is this approriate? If not, then who should decide?
Question #2 can never be answered 100% affirmative in the legal sense, even if you document everything in writing until you have to rent storage space for the paperwork alone. Ethically, again you are forced to decide for yourself.
Question #3: the legal implications often outweigh the safety implications for me. Most of my designs are no more of a personal safety issue than a ladder or a bumper winch. Can you hurt yourself with it? Yes, but generally you have to give it a good try to suceed. Looking at the history of ladder manufacturer litigation gives a clear idea on how the legal system sides with this one.
Aside from engineering issues involving code work (structures, pressure vessels, etc.), shouldn't there be some limited amount of "buyer beware" aspect to engineering advice? Otherwise, one could never give ANY engineering advice without a ream of paperwork accompanying it, and a bill to match. I think in the non-code world of engineering this sort of advice is given on a regular basis, often by non-PE's and even non-engineers. Whether it's legal or not, ethical or not, it happens a lot. Companies make a choice: "buyer beware" advice for little or no cost, or professional engineering advice for $$$$. Economics lead most companies to the first choice.
I don't know the answers, but I think it's a shame that usually it's the lawyers who decide these grey areas, not my own ethics or an ethics or engineering board. Where does my liability end? When the lawyers stop smelling money in my pocket. That seems to be the practical application of our current system. It's sad that ethical and legal liability seem to have drifted apart from each other.
Devil's Advocate Questions: I give Bob free advice on how to check his tires for wear. They later blow out and, while not hurting anyone, total his uninsured car. Am I ethically/legally liable? How about if I advise my friend Tom to leave his wife (I being married and therefore knowledgeable about the institution), and then she takes him for everything in the divorce? Am I ethically/legally liable?