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Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?
11

Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

(OP)
Will the online degree replace the traditional university degree with regards to engineering? There are several online degrees available now from places, including engineering masters degrees.

Here is what I see as the limitations of such a degree now:

1) Lack of hands-on classes, such as labs
2) Lack of name recognition bias (would you hire a grad of an online university or an established brick and mortar university)
3) Exam proctoring. Would all the exams now be open book?
4) Accreditation issues.

On the plus side, this would help many working professionals continue their education.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I personally have some with the videotape masters program that a company I work with offered. But I found that to be a watered down degree to serve the purposes of the automotive company I worked for.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

2
This is a great question.

I think that the legitamacy of "online" degrees will always be questioned.  Even the larger organizations (i.e. University of Phoenix online) have vague name recognition.  

How many e-mail offers do you receive a week suggesting that you "get your diploma, now!" from prestigious "Kennedy-Williams University" or some non-accredited university? (or some moron printing sheepskin in his garage...)  I get at least 5 of these offers a week.  How many of the people I know have purchased these things?  If I see ".com" or "online" after the name of any college, I am gonna be pretty skeptical.

On the topic of online exam proctoring: How can a college be certain that the student enrolled in the course is even the one taking the tests?

I took several online classes in college, and the only thing that I can say with certainty is that they are a joke.  With the lack of face-to-face, verbal student to teacher input, the course work is greatly supplemented by "busy work" (as opposed to value added instruction).  I read and wrote much more than necessary on a scope of topics much more limited and narrow than a traditional course would have offered.

Thankfully, none of my engineering classes were offered as online sections, or I might have made the stupid mistake of enrolling in them.  Nothing replaces classroom and lab experience.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

They will make some inroads - and we will see the traditional classroom change over time.  Exam proctoring will likely be done by third parties (at local facilities) under contract with the universities, and paid for by the students themselves.

Labs are a different story.  I can see these compressed into intensive one to two week "vacation courses" to allow students to work while attending school.  This might turn out to be a benefit for companies, who pay their employees during this time as a "perk."

Accreditation is a thorny issue; I would expect that ABET may have to develop "exit exams" that cover core competency.  Schools with a low percentage of "passing" grades could lose their accreditation.  (This would, unfortunately, lead to universities "teaching to the test.")

Major universities will offer these alternative class formats - for purely economic reasons.  (They can actually charge more - while providing less.)  I don't think prestige will be an issue in the long run.

But don't expect this to happen any time soon.  After all, we engineers are a pretty conservative lot!


RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Online degree courses are recognized by companies though only if the organization is well known. As a Professor in Enginologistics from the accredited University of WillaWonga.com, some qualifications from online courses are obviously dubious. In the UK the government sponsors the Open University whose purpose is to allow people who neither have the entry qualifications nor the time to enrol in a full time University. These courses do have periods spent on campus for more practical tuition, but can take years to complete. I would doubt that the final degree is viewed as highly as those from other prestigious Universities, such as Oxford, Cambridge, or WillaWonga though.

Prof.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

O' stoic WillaWonga...
My alma mater true!

Her bountiful, capacious knowledge tree
blossoms for we few.

With earned distinction, we may ask:
Oxford? Cambridge?...  Who?



RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Those diplomas are really doubtfull to me

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

2
I obtained my MSEE through Georgia Tech via a "distance learning program".  Never set foot on campus but viewed videotapes of the actual lectures and did same homework and took same exam as on-campus students.  

IMHO any program such as this deserves recognition. But obviously I am biased and it is not my opinion that matters.

I think that name recognition of the university should go a long way. Georgia Tech - 6th best graduate EE program per US News and World Report, and a good football team. I can claim it as my alma mater the same as any on campus student.

I think employers also will rightly take account of the fact that a degree earned while working full time shows some extra effort.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

EngineerDave,

I guess that to be really "academically intelligent" you don't need to go to college to obtain a degree.  In fact, a great percentage of people that go to college are not that intelligent in their field.  The question was whether or not an online degree will ever reach high status in the US.  I will say never.

The general concensus is that an online degree leave you ill-equipped.  It is up to those who pay money to get this education to prove this wrong.  Many companies that receive resumes from non-credited schools or online degrees end up in the garbage can upon arrival.  Does a State Board allow a person with an online degree to sit for the EIT or the PE?  Does a person with an online degree can obtain a job with MIT, NASA or the ARMY Corps of Engineers?  I think not.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

On-line degree - are you kidding

To be an engineer in Canada you need to go to an accreditted university.  I'm quit sure that no online course would be accreditted.  Therefore you are not an engineer.  So why waste your time!

Nepe - Nice post

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I agree that an online degree does have its limitations and will never compare to the quality education obtained from an attending an accredited university. However, I do believe such a degree can be worthwhile in certain situations.

Electricpete's post was a good example of a worthwhile online degree. For those of us who have a bachelor’s degree from an accredited university and are practicing engineers, an online master’s degree can make sense. There are many well known engineering schools out there now that offer online masters degrees. For those who cannot return to school full time to obtain a masters, this can be a great alternative.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

electripete:

GaTech has some awsome distance learning programs.  I dont think they [distance programs] will substitute for the traditional BS program, but will become more mainstream for post graduate....

BobPE

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

(OP)
I do agree and I think Georgia Tech in the name would be an advantage over a Phoenix or Kennedy Western.

Alas, all my degrees will be from brick and mortar onsite universities. But I"m not opposed towards using an online place for continuing education.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I can see on line studies for continuing education, but not for advanced degrees.  A big part of getting a master's or PhD is the opportunity for the interpersonal relationship with the faculty.  This would be lost on line - after all, it would be pretty hard to catch your faculty advisor at the elevator for a quick lunch together, a beer at the local pub, etc.  And you would miss out on the interaction with your fellow students.



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RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

One must be careful of online degrees - due to accreditation issues, it some states it is illegal use and unaccredited degree on your resume, job application etc. A good source to find out about accrediation, degree mills, etc is the Orgeon State Office of Degree Authorization
webpage  http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/index.html

How does a school ensure that the quality of education is the same between an on-campus face-to-face course and one offered on-line?

I grant  that a good course on the Blackboard or Web-CT system with video, audio , lecture notes, etc. by a professor that has the time, desire and fortitude to develop and maintain the course material is great. However, many institue of higher education use underpaid part-time faculty to develop a course then run it for years without changing or improving the content. Every education institute is now looking for ways to incorporate on-line courses, they see it as a "cash-cow." Little or no faculty involvement, having a large enrollment of students at any time. For the foremention reasons I expect to see many on-line programs fail (have little or no value to industryor students).


RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

As a resident of a small town in New Mexico (which is a long way from a traditional campus) with aspirations of getting a PhD one day I've been watching the evolution of Distance Learning for several years.

Five years ago, the field was limited to TV Guide "Correspondance Courses" and a Google search for "distance learning" came back with one page.  Three years ago there were a couple of big-name universities offering Engineering PhD programs (and the Google search results were in the thousands).  Now every university has a "Distance Learning" section of their web page and there are millions of hits for it in Google.  My guess is that 5 years from now the online courses and the brick-and-mortar classes will be indistingushable from each other on a resume.

The folks that say "an on-line engineering degree will never be acceptable to employeers, licensing boards and regulators" are in the same boat as the folks in 1900 who said "physics research will stop in the first decade of the 20th century because everything that can be learned in physics has been learned".  "Never" is just too long a time.  I see the Distance Learning train gathering momentum and pretty much unstopable at this point.  

Schools are finding inventive solutions to the very real proctoring, lab, and face time issues and I think that the solutions will get more and more mainstream in the next few years.

David

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I see the Distance Learning train gathering momentum and pretty much unstopable at this point.

Hmmm,

You might be right, but I don't think so.  At least not in my field.  I also remember the days when personal computers were fairly new, and many believed that they would lead to a "paperless" office.  It didn't happen.  (I thought it was a stupid position then - and still feel that way.)  

I don't see distance learning making much of a dent in engineering education, at least not with respect to advanced degrees.  The reason is pretty simple: you don't get the economy of scale that you do with business classes and the like; when was the last time you saw thousands of students taking any post-graduate engineering course?

And the smaller the class size, the less attractive is a distance learning setup.  After all, one of the real advantages of a class of ten students is the ability to see one another and converse in non-verbal ways that are impossible to "get" with a distance learning setup.  It might be feasible in two or three decades when VR becomes feasible.  Second thought - nah, not even then.

I think this whole distance learning thing is a bit of a fad right now, and while aspects of it are here to stay, it will fade in importance over time.



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RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I believe that the time will come when the academic and professional status will separate completely. It will be a test/exam to define who is allowed to practice engineering without exception. And if one has the knowledge to pass this test will be an engineer, regardless of his/her academic degree.

With the growing cost of education at all levels and the fantastic growth of technology, most of education will be online. The primary school offered by radio and later on internet for the children of sparsely populated Australia regions is one good example of online education which is not questioned at all - it has been the only way to educate those kids for decades.

There are already classes with more than 800 engineering students, where the teacher is wired and he delivers a lecture integrated in a video/light/sound show in more than one amphiteater. Teaching assistants move around to explain obscure points to the audience. How far is this from the way I was taught?!

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I think there is a great danger that you are concentrating overmuch on the lectures. Frankly by my third year I had given up going to most lectures, the library was a much better source of learning.

On the other hand I was doing 4 afternoons a week of labs - how can an online course give you that depth of experimental work?

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

You are right about labs - no lecture can replace them. But labs are expensive; hardware and software need updating faster and faster. Unfortunately they will be the first to go. There are already virtual dissection and lots of simulation/animation in several disciplines. Lego robots or experimental kits. It's just a matter of time.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

It sounds as if there are a lot of people that think this type of learning is something new... something of the computer generation. I was in vietnam getting combat pay and kept up with my schooling. -- when I got back home it only took me 1 year to complete my degree because a Military school is widely accepted. Most of my classes were done through tapes or when possible in class on base. The concept has been around for a long time. Just not like it is now -- "On-Line" --- I don't think this type of degree will ever be accepted in the work place for professionals.

 JMO ---

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

stel8 opined,

I believe that the time will come when the academic and professional status will separate completely. It will be a test/exam to define who is allowed to practice engineering without exception.

Nope.  Texas used to allow non-degreed individuals to become licensed.  The rule was changed about 10 years ago - for several reasons.  First, too few individuals were becoming licensed that way.  Second, those that were following the "work experience" track had many more complaints, disciplinary hearings, etc. than the typical degreed engineer.

You're swimming against the current on that point -



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RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I think a person can learn just as well in a remote environment, of course this depends on the degree of diligence and committment by each individual. Although I do not think remote learning will be generally accepted by industry.

Focht3,

In addition to the benefits of ensuring engineering competency, revenue generation must have been an issue.

I would suspect, since there were too few individuals becoming licensed there were revenue shortfalls within the regulatory body. Thus 10 years ago it enacted rules that would compel folks to become licensed.

Just based on observation of government in action. Revenue is generally the bottom line.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

ietech -

I'm sorry - but that doesn't make any sense.  The issue was closing a method for becoming licensed (which generates fees) because it wasn't being used much and was apparently damaging the public health, safety and welfare (hence all the complaints.)  The Board doesn't get any revenue from ABET or the universities, only from applicants and license renewal fees.

The total number of applicants has grown steadily over the years.  Historically, the number of non-degreed individuals had been quite small; the big change in the application process apparently started about 30 or 40 years ago with the steady rise of applicants from outside the U.S. that had not attended ABET-accredited schools.

Money was not the issue.



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RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

There is pressure to come to international agreements for professional qualifications. NAFTA is a good example of such agreement transfer for engineers. Workforce mobility will (in years, but it will) make it easier to practice engineering in any signatory state (USA, Canada, Mexico). Engineering regulatory bodies will impose strict licence exams. That's why I believe that academic and professional licence will be distinct and separated. Which means that how you get the degree is not as important, as long as you can pass the professional examination.

On the other hand, communication technology is changing very rapidly. Students in any course can chat and exchange info by email, prof's website provides all required knowledge, evaluation can be done on internet, etc. Face to face learning becomes more expensive when the students live in different places.

I agree that labs are not only important but crucial to learn engineering. However, they will be done in a virtual environment because the technology is already available.

A Very Happy New Year to all! May that Engineering will survive well and be there for a long time!

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Focht3

I am in agreement with you on the points you raised. I merely stated "in addition" to those points money must have to contributed to the the decision to change.

In my short 60 years I have never seen government ignore the possibility of more revenue. Without it all govt. agencies, whether service or regulatory, would be unable to function.

Even if the old system had the ability to generate revenue, if no one was applying for licensure there would be no money generated.

If you believe that money is not an issue then I respect your opinion.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Hmmm,

ietech:
Well, expenses could have been a factor, due to the time and effort needed to investigate the complaints.  But I sincerely doubt it - guilty parties are fined pretty heavily, so much of the cost is covered.

I think it was a combination of lack of use, the aggravation of time spent by the Board members in hearings (there's an economic factor!), and public image, not monetary issues.

stel8:
I'm pro-NAFTA and have a lot of foreign-trained engineers as friends.  Your assertion of some separation between "academic and professional license" is heading the wrong direction.  In many ways, our foreign partners have a stronger desire to maintain high academic requirements than U.S. engineers.  Moving away from a "college degree from an approved engineering school is required" to an "engineering degree is optional" system seems pretty unlikely in my view.  And you have the bulk of U.S. engineers and engineering schools opposed as well.

As an ol' country boy once told me, "That dog don't hunt."  And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen...



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RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I am currently employeed but am taking on-line classes to get my BS degree. There are limited BS degrees out there in the engineering world. The only one that I found in Engineering when I decided to go back to school is a BS in Electrical/Mechanical Engineering Technology. While it is not a full blown engineering degree we are required for some classes to attend lab sessions to get the needed hand-on experience that the teachers feel important to the class. I have also had classes where I need to buy the supplies to complete some labs at home (electronics design). So there is some hands on both on site and at home. As far as exams, there are quite a few classes that require proctored exams, your proctor can be a supervisor of yours at work or reccommended is using a local community college to supervise. I think that this degree is going to help me, I learn new things in every class and the instructors come from real life jobs and have great experience to share in their classes both on-line and in person. This degree is accredited by ABET so there is some credibility in the degree and the required classes needed. If anyone wants to find out more feel free to contact myself or check out the RIT webpages.
Cory

ccrandallseibert@hotmail.com

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

There are some types of engineering disciplines that might be better suited for distance learning.  Software Engineering is an obvious choice for distance learning while Nuclear Engineering really wouldn't be a good choice distance learning.

Often engineering design can have life or death consequences, so it would be important to make sure that the recipients of the distance degrees are capable of the work required.

I think that the best use of distance learning degrees is to supplement a working, traditionally degreed engineer's knowledge and give him or her some recognition for it.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Distance learning programs can require the exams to be handled by certified proctors.  The proctor receieves, administers, and sends back the exam along with their signed statement that the exam has been handled in accordance with program requirements.

It is incorrect to assume that testing standards for distance learning must be less stringent that on-campus programs.

I suspect that most of the people in this thread who have implied that distance learning should be considered  inferior to on-campus education (without consideration of which program) probably don't have any direct first-hand knowledge of distance learning programs.

Those who say that distance learning is perceieved as substandard may be correct.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

... I would like to take it a step further and use the Georgia Tech program I mentioned above as an example.

I viewed the exact same lectures, submitted the exact same homework assingments and projects, and took the exact same tests as on-campus students. Is there someone here who thinks that my education should be viewed as inferior to the on-campus students? (if so I would disagree).

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

electricpete

Georgia Tech is a fine school and I think your degree should be of equal value to those who attended on-campus.

After all, if the only difference was the parking permit, finding that elusive parking place in the south forty, and the walk from the car to class --- why should your education be of lesser value.

Whether professional organizations or industry will have the same point of view, probably not --- well, I really don't know.

Concensus on this thread seems to be somewhat negative, I hope they are wrong in your case.

ietech

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I believe that it is the quality of the University that counts in weighting the value of a degree.  A BS degree from a school that does is not meet the standards of ABET is of limited value for a professional engineer.  In contrast, a degree from a University that has met the standards of ABET is worth much more.  Also, it helps if the University has an excellent reputation for its quality of education.

Perhaps the question might be is whether ABET is giving accreditation for the distant learning degrees.  If so, I don’t see the difference between watching the class on a Video at home or sitting the class room.  

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

CGR is correct. How would you compare a weak in-class program compared by a well-designed and delivered distance program?  

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I think accredited online degrees and other distance learning programs have their place. It is only a matter of time before it reaches full exceptance. I would never hire an engineer who only has an online degree without other experience and I would never suggest prospective engineer pursue their degree on line in leiu of a traditional education. However, I only have an Assoc. of Science degree, but I have over 25 years in the engineering field. I normally do more engineering work in a day than most of my degreed co-workers do in a week. My title here at work is Machine Design Engineer, but I make less than 60% of the pay of an entry level engineer, and will never be considered for a promotion with out a BS or BA. I even run a Machine Design consulting service on the side. I will be starting an online degree in the next couple of months, not because it will be easier but out of necessity. There are no traditional colleges near me that offer night or evening classes, and with a family of five to support, I can not leave my job to pursue a higher degree.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Looking for insight about getting a masters through online education... any insights? I have a BSEE, been working in circuits for 7 years (some bipolor design, a little cmos, and lots of physical layout both at gate and full-chip level)

My concerns are the following:
1) I've been out of school 7 years and am worried I need to brush up on electrical engineering basics (+math) before starting a Masters in EE.
2) Should I go MSEE or MBA?
3) It looks like it will take 4-5 years since I work full time.  Is this hard to do over such a long time frame?

Thanks for any input,
AndyStar22

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I'm a mecahnical engineer (BSEE) working full time in oil & gas and thinking about on-line Master's Degree program. I've found one in the University of Illinois on-line:

http://www.uic.edu/eng/meng/

In the course outline it is mentioned: "The MEng is a professional degree based entirely on course work, without a research component". Does it mean that the course is going to be shorter (3-4 years)? Does somedody have any experience with this course?

Thanks,

Inna

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

NC State is another university offering online programs: http://distance.ncsu.edu. Whatever else online programs may be, they aren't any cheaper than their in-person counterparts. Out of state tuition is $1800 per three credit hour course.

Rob Campbell
www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

i earned my BSME from San Diego State Univ and working full time. i am considering taking online classes (for masters).

the internet really revolutionized a lot of things. i think online degrees should be recognized like the degrees earned from "brick & mortar" universities. its only a matter of which online university a person will be taking the classes from (therefore some recognized accreditation should be establihed).

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I went through Purdue's online engineering education program for (MS)ECE while in Chicago back in the mid 90's and my wife went through Georgia Tech's online engineering program for (MS)ME while in North Carolina.  We were both working at the time, both part time programs are from their main campus with no reference to online anything, and both are ABET accredited.

Although I had to drive down to Purdue Calumet to view the lectures via tape, I did the same exact same homework assignments and projects as those taking the lectures live.  The Purdue program cost me about $8k over 3 years with no thesis, but is generally only avail only if you live in Indiana or work at some select employers like big3.

Just another option to consider.

https://engineering.purdue.edu/CEE/credit_programs/documents/degree_options

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Actually, I just looked at the following URL:

https://engineering.purdue.edu/CEE/resources_for/prospective_students/Site_reps

They actually now have some more distant 'P' (Public) sites like:

GA Lawrenceville Gwinnett Technical College (Atlanta)
IA Spirit Lake Iowa Lakes Community College
IL Palatine William Rainey Harper College
MI Ann Arbor University Of Michigan Business School
MI Benton Harbor Whirlpool Corporation
NC Cary Caterpillar, Inc.
NM Albuquerque University of New Mexico
TX Richardson University of Texas - Dallas

The majority of sites are still specific companies (must be employed there) or public access sites in Indiana like what I did at Purdue Calumet (regional small campus in NW Indiana), but who knows.  They or you may be able to get the company sponsoring the viewing to let you in if you are diplomatic on a case by case basis.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Harking back to ElectricPete's earlier post, i am reminded of the song(?) "I'm a hell of a wreck from Georgia Tech, but a hell of an engineer!"
Anyone know it? Is there more?

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
eng-tips, Pro bono publico

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses"
"If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

That's from the Georgia Tech fight song, Ramblin Wreck from Georgia Tech.

Ramblin' Wreck
I'm a Ramblin' Wreck From Georgia Tech and a hell of an engineer.
A helluva helluva helluva helluva helluvan engineer.
Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear,
I'm a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech and a hell of an engineer.

Oh, If I had a daughter, sir, I'd dress her in White and Gold.
And put her on the campus to cheer the brave and bold.
And if I had a son, sir, I'll tell you what he'd do,
He would yell "TO HELL WITH GEORGIA" like his daddy used to do.

I wish I had a barrel of rum and sugar three thousand pounds,
A college bell to put it in, and a clapper to stir it round.
I'd drink to all the good fellows who come from far and near,
I'm a ramblin, gamblin' hell of an engineer, Hey!

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Thank you CajunCenturion!
Can you sing that for us, please?

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
eng-tips, Pro bono publico

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses"
"If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

LOL - There is a reason why I'm a software engineer, and not a singer.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

The money?
[img //smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_118.gif]

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
eng-tips, Pro bono publico

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses"
"If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I figured you guys may want the link:

http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/reck/sounds.html

You can hear all of our school songs.  I am partial to White and Gold, and I can say with confidence I have never heard the Alma Mater sung.

Although I can't sing it for you, Gregory Peck has sings the first verse and a link is on the above site.

Have fun!

Brian

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

(OP)
Rambling wreck from Georgia Tech and a hell of an engineer. Not that I'm a Georgia Tech grad, but it was one school I considered for grad school.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Anyone have any thoughts on a school such as NTU (National Technological University)?  

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I worked with a guy once who went to a school with a similar name.  The first question I asked him (alcohol was involved) was "where did you hear about that school, a TV Guide insert?".  He allowed as how that wasn't the first time he had heard that particular line and that I was welcome to do unspeakable things to myself.  He also said that the school having a TV-Guide-Insert name had been a serious drawback in his job search.

I don't know that you'd have his problems with NTU, but I've seen folks who went to the University of Phoenix have similar problems (and it has a name that sounds almost mainstream).  

A quality distance program at a "mainstream" school seems like a better bet to me.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The Plural of "anecdote" is not "data"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I opened up my latest ASME Mechanical Engineering magazine and saw much to my surprise, distance learning MS degrees for most of the top engineering choices at Kansas State University.  I had planned to take some distance learning classes to transfer to my current school, but I never thought of obtaining my Masters completely via distance learning.  Admittedly, I'm intrigued.  I'm becoming quite interested at the prospect.  

Let me ask electricpete... You've done it for graduate work, correct?  How did you accomplish the hands-on laboratory assignments?  Were there any?

For the record, I believe distance learning can be a great tool... provided it's done right.  MBA's should be rather easy for distance learning.  The more technical degrees (like engineering) are more difficult to cater to distance learning, but certainly not impossible.  Considering the slow rise of distance learning, I'll assume proper measures are being taken to ensure quality instruction.  

Also, it was brought to my attention by my own school administration that graduate studies do not require the same accredidation standards as undergraduate.  An accredited school is accredited based in its undergraduate curriculum and facilities.  Graduate work is an offshoot of that. With graduate work, you need to do extraordinary things with limited resources. Distance or not, much of the graduate work is independent study.  That's what makes it distance learning possible.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

aspearin1,
I think you may have the wrong idea about graduate school.  In the base ciruculum there is zero hands-on or real-world stuff.  No labs at all.  The only time you have a chance to touch something engineering-related is during your thesis work if you take that path.

I look back on my 2 years in grad school and can't see a single thing I did that wouldn't have been better done via a quality distance program (you can re-wind a tape to hear a mumbled explaination over and over until it makes sense, live professors get cranky when you hit the re-play button).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The Plural of "anecdote" is not "data"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

So far, my curriculum has been hands on and independent study.   Less analytical, more practical.  But your argument also supports the use of distance learning.  

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I realize you should look for an ABET accredited university.  However, Master programs (as previously mentioned) have no such accredidation (only their undergraduate counterparts).

All of the courses available from NTU come from universities with ABET accredited undergraduate programs.  Hence, the graduate program is up to snuff, apparently.

Is there anyone with experience with NTU?

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Here is the deal.  I did some research and National Technological University (NTU) IS regionally accredited by The Higher Learning Commission and a member of the North Central Association.

I am from Canada so unsure ...this should be enough right?


Regards,
TULUM

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

NTU is NOT a nationally accredited university.  The U of Phoenix is not nationally accredited either, but is regionally accredited, and I think is also a member of the North Central Association.

Quote (tulum):

All of the courses available from NTU come from universities with ABET accredited undergraduate programs.
This is a true statement, but read it very very carefully.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

CajunCenturion,

Most accreditation activities are handled through regional accreditors. There are several national accreditors (that is, whose jurisdiction is national in scope) but these are limited to specific types of institutions -- for example, bible colleges, allied health schools, private trade and technical schools, private business colleges.

This is straight from the horses mouth, i.e. The Higher Learning Commission

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

2
What is the Return On Investment (ROI) for additional education?

A collge education should should result in the gradutes being equipped to use the "tools" they had l/earned (that is not a typo).  i.e. how to solve problems that they have never seen before.  If your education was valuable you should be able to research and study on your own to solve the problems that your clients need you to solve.  Granted a masters and/or a doctorate has its advantages but just like an MBA they are only worth while if you really need them for something in particular.  (unless of course you want to attend for the "joy of it").

Example: I have reviewed on-line masters degrees from two schools recently for a masters in structural engineering.  They cost between $18,000 and $26,000.  Not to mention the tremendous anount of time involved in doing the work.  Lets say a minimum of 10 hours per week times a minimum of 40 weeks per year times two years.  What is your time worth?  At ten dollars an hour, this would equate to an additional $8,000 per degree. ( I can do side jobs for a considerably greater value that $10/hr.) So the minimum total amount would be around $25,000 +/-.  If you are married with a family that is quite a bit of time to be off on your own.  So in two years you have invested $25,000.  What kind of raise could you expect going from a BS to a MS?  Based on the surveys that I have seen from both the ASCE and NSPE the difference with similar years experience is only a few thousand dollars. A very optimistic differential is $5000 (tops).  Therefore after spending two additional years,  plus $25,000 it would take an additional five years to break even, not counting compound interest on the loans that were taken out or the money invested in the additional degree.

Now what about studing for the SE exam(s) without having a MS.  If you do structural engineering for a living, are reasonably competent and are dilligent you can pass the exam by only spending a few hundren dollars for reference material, and perhaps 200 hours in study time versus at least 800 hours for a masters.  I believe having an SE registration in addition to a PE would be more worthwhile resulting in a shorter time period for your ROI and probably result in the same if not better compensation.  Once you have your batchelors and your PE registration and again are reasonabbly competent, there is not that much incentive to go for the formal (big business) education.  

Also, forums such as Eng-Tips give us all a very wide education from our colleagues.  

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Pmkpe,

I see what you are saying, and yes, I have thought of the ROI as well.  However...

1. my company is willing to pay for the education;
2. When I take MS courses I find it opens my eyes to many areas of engineering I am not exposed to on the job, i.e. professional breadth
3. Will it eventually pay me more?.. not really that much, however, it will definetly get me through the door on more positions.
4. In 10 years, whether we like it or not, the field will be saturated with Msc's and P.H.D's...and sad to say many will be the supervisors of their Bsc conterparts.

Regards,
TULUM

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I'm convinced that the ROI for my Masters was zero tangible dollars.  I did it "for the fun of it" and I'll be persuing my PhD for the same reason.  

In most fields of Engineering, advanced degrees are PR or (possibly) something to differentiate your resume from the rest of the stack.  You don't need them for qualifications or for advancement (Tulum, my guess is that your fourth point is exactly wrong.  I would bet a lot that most of those supervisors will either have stopped at a BS or will have gotten their MBA.  People who work towards advanced technical degrees don't tend to be the same ones who suck their way to the top).

My company paid for my Masters, and they provided extravagant assistance on my thesis (it helped that the topic was among the biggest areas of uncertainty that we saw in gas measurement).  They had no problem with me going to the library during working hours, and my staff (I was in a supervisor job then) was very careful to schedule big meetings during school breaks and other times that they were confident I'd be there.  You couldn't have asked for a better environment.  Even with all that I spent considerably more than the 800 hours mentioned above working on course material nights and weekends.  My wife was really great about it and my 2 small kids went to bed early (and I was able to work after they were in bed).

Getting an advanced degree while working full time is not a task to enter into lightly.  Nor is is one to enter with the thought of immediate advancement and more money.  When I got the degree, my boss took the group out to lunch to celebrate, but that was the limit of the "rewards" from the company.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The Plural of "anecdote" is not "data"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

My fourth point was merely to state the fact that times are changing.

30 years ago a college degree was at the peak of education. Now a Bsc has become the norm...(depending).  However, here in Ontario the professional engineers of Ontario have discussed more than once the idea that to get your P.Eng status in the future an Msc will be mandatory.

I was not suggesting they would be CEO's or high powered exec's... just merely that an Msc will soon become the norm/lowest degree.  

So David, my guess is that my fourth point is exactly right.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Being in the process of working toward a strictly on-line master's, I may be a bit biased.  I wanted to say, though, that while NO degree is a substitute for actual experience (I've known people with a high school education rival PhD's in physics), there is a place for the on-line degree, especially in the area of engineering I'm studying, namely project management.  There is no thesis required, but there is one capstone exam, in person, at the end of the program.  Since there is no technical lab or hands on work directly related to the program, most of the classes focus on applying the principles to your existing job.  Case studies, interviews, and in depth analysis of issues related to my work not only provide a way for me to become more involved in the management of the company, but also illustrate the actual applications (or lack thereof) of the "fashionable" management theories of the day.

I think that some form of continuing education is of primary importance, especially for licensed P.E.'s.  If I can work at home, with my kids bouncing around (i.e., I can still interact with them), then that's time well spent.  They know that I have homework to do, but that doesn't stop me from being with my family while I do it.

Will there be an overabundance of on-line master's degrees in the future?  Perhaps, but that is the role of accreditation.  In my case, the program is accredited by ABET, and it's as valid as any other degree.  I think that based on those standards, an accredited on-line degree can be as valuable to your career as a brick-and-mortar one; but maybe neither is appropriate in every case.

More power to anyone who takes the time and makes the effort to continue to learn, whether or not it's required by your state board.  If you want it just to have another set of initial after your name and you put in a half-baked effort, the on-line degree will be almost worthless; you won't retain the information anyway.  But if it directly applies to your work and experience, it's valuable insight and management training.

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Auriferous,

I thought ABET does not accredit Master programs, just the undergrad programs?

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Tobalcane,

You are half right.. most professors even think that ABET only accredits undergrad programs...I thought this was the case as well... here are the facts straight from the horses mouth (ABET)...

"It is the current policy of the to accredit only one program within a discipline for each university.  The University may choose this program but it is normally an entry level program.  Although many universities seek accreditation for their higher level programs the frequency is far less than those that seek entry level program accreditation.  "

Regards,
TULUM


RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

I do a degree ..then try and get a job..

I do an apprenticeship in a job..gain vast amounts of experience..then do an online degree...

who would you employ........!


Doesnt matter where the degree is earned...only the person who earns it..!

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Tulum,

With that said, then would it make sense that the only online degree that should be legitimate would be an online degree that was accredit by ABET?  

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Tobalcane,

Yes...but the confusion can be found as follows.

If you want to take a graduate degree in Mechanical engineering. You could choose either:

a) a school with an ABET accredited Graduate program, or
b) a school with an ABET accredeted Undergraduate program,

Although only one program is ABET accredited, the whole school of Mech engineering would be ABET accredited by association, and therfore either would be fine.

Regards,
TULUM


RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

Although not exactly an online degree the U.K. does have the Open University or O.U.

The O.U. degrees can be tailored to suit your circumstances and workload but the bottom line is you need to put in a lot of hard work and time to get your degree.  With the right profile of courses the degrees are acredited and accepted by many of the professional institutes such as the I.E.E. (institute of electrical engineers)

Many of the O.U. courses have manadatory summer schools where you live in a local university for a week and use their labs/facilities.

Home experiment kits - well my first posting included a dual beam oscilloscope, bread boards, components, computer software and all manner of things.

Unfortunately this good work is trashed by the numpties who offer degrees on the internet for £10. (and the numpties who buy them)

The O.U. is probably the largest university in the U.K. and has proved itself on many occasions.  

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

"NUMPTIES?"

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

numpty Noun. A fool, idiot. Also spelt numbty and numptie. [Orig. Scottish]  

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/n.htm

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Will online degrees ever reach high status in the US?

(OP)
One thing I greatly salute about the attempts of online education is the fact that there are people who would never set foot on a university again due to time and family pressure, who are expanding their education with online degrees.

I have obtained my first and soon to be second masters the traditional way by going to classes on campus. I do appreciate the change in environment they provide. In fact I recently left my job to focus on finishing my second masters degree which will place me in a brand new field.

It was very difficult to work and continue my masters. I did it for a period of a year and a half until it became impractical to finish the degree without attending school full-time during the day due to the very hands-on nature of the programs completion.

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