"how to use SHALL or MUST"
"how to use SHALL or MUST"
(OP)
How it is interpreted or understanding the mean of
SHALL or MUST in specification.
Which one is a mandatory and which is optional.
SHALL or MUST in specification.
Which one is a mandatory and which is optional.
Pardal





RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
'May' means that it is optional.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Wanna Tip? FAQ731-376
"Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities."
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Should denotes a recommended practice, but not required.
May denotes an option.
Must is not used too much anymore in code lexicon.
(No pun on the last one intended)
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Pardal
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
To be strict, each code "should" in general define these words on the "Scope and Definitions" section.
Mentioning these definitons may be helpful to sustain your interpretations of a code.
For example ASME/ANSI codes, defines their version for should, shall, may. NFPA defines should, shall, etc.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Thanks for your tip.
Could be any way you can send me such pharagraph from that code??
Pardal
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
http://assist2.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/
961D is the specification for specifications and paragraph 4.9.6 Commonly used words and phrases describes in detail the recommending wording for specification paragraphs.
TTFN
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
NFPA 13.
Should. Indicates a recomendation or that which is advised but not required.
(The manual of this code clarifies that it refers to appendix A or B contents).
Shall. Indicates a mandatory requirement.
ASME B31.1. 100.2
May: may is used to to denote permission, neither a requirement nor a recomendation.
Should: "should" or "it is recomended" is used to indicate that a provision is not mandatory but recomended as good practice.
(I have used the last phrase of this parragraph to sustain that even something that is not an obligation is correct and acording to a good ethics, a must).
Shall: Shall or shall not is used to indicate that a provission or prohibition is mandatory.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Shall Verbal form used to indicate requirements strictly to be followed in order to conform to the standard and from which no deviation is permitted, unless accepted by all involved parties.
Should Verbal form used to indicate that among several possibilities one is recommended as particularly suitable, without mentioning or excluding others, or that a certain course of action is preferred but not necessarily required.
May Verbal form used to indicate a course of action permissible within the limits of the standard.
Can Verbal form used for statements of possibility and capability, whether material, physical or casual.
http://www.standard.no/standard/NORSOK_standards/L-001/general/L001-05.htm#P115_4100
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
1)Command/Action (Drill, Clean, Mark, Install...)
2)Object
Examples:
Correct - 'MARK P/N AND REV LETTER WHERE SHOWN'
Incorrect - 'PART SHALL BE MARKED WITH REV LETTER...'
Correct - 'USE MINIMUM BEND RADII'
Incorrect - 'ALL BENDS SHALL BE MINIMUM BEND RADII'
This eliminates the 'shall, should, must, will' controversy entirely. In addition, it's best to try to put your notes in the sequence in which they are performed - start with material and end with marking or packaging.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Pardal
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
I apologize for going off on a tangent. One of my pet peeves is seeing excess verbage on drawings. It is a different matter regarding processes and specifications.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Then your question becomes mute.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
I allways saw "shall be done" or "must be done"
That's what I want to know.
"The way I shall consider the phrase "
or "I Must consider the phrase"
Thanks
Pardal
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
NOTES:
1. WELD PER AMS D1.1
2. ORIENT THREADED END OF COUPLING TO OUTSIDE OF TANK
3. MASK THREADS BEFORE PAINTING
4. MARK PART NUMBER WHERE SHOWN
No one will wonder what you want or who is responsible for doing it. Trust me it works better this way. Also, try to put notes in order of operation. I won't answer again but I wanted you to get a full understanding of my intent in this answer.
Thanks for listening.
Kim
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
The notes should (not shall..hee hee) be to the point and not drawn out.
It helps to have them in order of operation sa Kim writes.
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
All Technical English and Technical Writing manuals/textbooks, not to mention English grammar textbooks, I have read advise against using "shall" in any way shape or form. The manuals cite something similar to KimBellingrath's suggestion: "Omit will, shall, must, etc".
(The most famous misuse of "shall" was Gen Mcarthur saying "I shall return". Aparantly he should have said "I will return". Though the latter doesn't have the same "kick" it is more grammaticaly correct.)
procadman2
Proe Design & Admin
NASA Contractor
"You can't build a reputation on something you haven't done."
H Ford
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
No one here would argue that a requirements specfication is remotely an example of normal English literature.
TTFN
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Consider, Provide, Furnish, Install, Clean, Submit, Weld, Ship, Design, Calculate, ... Combine to clarify the scope. Furnish and install. Avoid "by others" if you can identify the others. As Kim said, "Do it" instead of "it shall be done".
After writing the specification search for any use of passive words such as shall, must, have, ... At first, use the grammer check software with passive voice rule turned on to help you get the style.
For practice, edit examples of government regulations that are almost exclusively passive voice. With practice you can enjoy this newly found language.
John
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
A "specification" is a set of requirements that are to be adhered to by the design, so it's somewhat odd to say, "Communicate to the outside world using TCP/IP." as there is no one on the other side of this imperative execute this command.
Specification drawings detail inherent properties of the item, such as performance, weight, etc. You don't tell your laptop, "Weigh no more than 10 pounds." However, "Laptop shall weigh no more than 10 pounds," makes sense as a requirement.
Moreover, defense specification drawings must adhere to MIL-STD-961, which mandates the use of "shall" to express a binding requirement.
TTFN
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
John
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
MIL-STD-961 covers specifically what are called Prime Item Development Specifications, which are DESIGN requirements, otherwise, a totally different agency would be responsible for procurement. While sloppy language allows for "Design computer to weigh less than 10 pounds," when you have >300 such requirements all starting with "Design computer" it becomes pointless to have an active voice.
TTFN
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
I have a manual written by someone who assumes he understands 961.
Instead of listing required steps in a standard fashion, ie: 2.1 2.1a 2.2 etc., the author begins each requirement with "shall". This goes on for over 20 steps. This is not what 961 is stating to do.
Using "shall" and "must" in most cases draws the readers attention away from the rest of the requirements. All of the requirements must be met. Some are more critical than others.
"The weight of the computers to not exceed 5 kg." is acceptable technical english.
However it is still needlessly wordy. It would be better to put all over-all requirements in a list and give a range of acceptable values:
weight: 4-5kg
or weight: <5kg
"Shall" and "must are leftovers from the dark ages.
I will not use them, even under 961, when I can have a more easily read technically correct rewriten requirement.
(FYI. All of my work goes to NASA.)
procadman2
Proe Design & Admin
NASA Contractor
"You can't build a reputation on something you haven't done."
H Ford
RE: "how to use SHALL or MUST"
Well said. I agree and also follow your same guidelines.
I think 'shall' and some other sayings were brought into our language by the movie/tv industry ~30-40 years ago!