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Software Piracy
9

Software Piracy

Software Piracy

(OP)
Any thoughts about the responsibility an engineer has WRT software piracy at a company for which he works?

RE: Software Piracy

2
I have no strong opinion as to whether you should report such if you should see it.  It may make for a good ace up the sleeve if one should be disgruntled.

However, I have strong reservations against pirating software if I was asked to do so.  It is theft, and I will not do it.

RE: Software Piracy

3
Software piracy is using the work product of someone else, possibility a fellow engineer, without compensating the other for his or her work.

The Manitoba Association came out and stated quite plainly that software piracy was illegal and would be considered a serious breech of ethics by any P.Eng committing the act. Since the act and ethics also state that an engineer must report unethical acts, I would consider that the responsibility for any engineer who commits or condones such acts is the same.

I believe that you have a responsibility to inform the software creator and if the guilty party is a fellow P.Eng, your local association.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

(OP)
Tick: Understood you wouldn't steal it yourself. Would you use it? How 'bout if you had to use it in order to do your job?

Rick: Do you believe it should be reported even if such were certain to cost one his/her job?

RE: Software Piracy

Binary--
Use of it is theft.  I wouldn't work for an employer that knowingly does it (as that employer is showing huge ethical lapses, and ethics aside the consequence of such misconduct can be the financial collapse of a business).

Regarding costing somebody his/her job, this would in the U.S. fall under federal whistle-blowing laws. The best thing (financially) that could happen to an employee is to be fired for such an action.

My employer is very strict in "dotting i's and crossing t's" in this category. I would expect that most businesses larger than a few people behave the same way (at least in industrialized contries, where failure to behave has potentially severe economic consequences).

Brad

RE: Software Piracy

I have not been in the position of being dependent on pirated software, even in small companies.  I also do not ask questions when the answer will not do anyone any good.  MYOB, so to speak.  I have also left a job because I didn't like management's lack of ethics.

I have actually blown the whistle on people using another respected engineering forum to hawk pirated software.  So, maybe I wouldn't just stand by and let it happen.  I don't steal music on the internet, either.  I was a musician and songwriter, once, and I can't abide stealing musicians' intellectual (in the loosest definition) property.

RE: Software Piracy

Theft is theft.  If one has knowledge of the theft one would be obligated to report it and to shun the thief.  no ethical quandry there! NONE!

RE: Software Piracy

I think the ethics in this case are actually as clear as ethics can get.  It gets muddy when you throw in wife, kids, mortgage, career, etc.

RE: Software Piracy

(OP)
I agree with TheTick. The ethics are not in question in such a case, merely the sacrifices that one is willing to make to meet them.

Oh, for the good times when jobs were plentiful...

RE: Software Piracy

(OP)
Another thought:

One could argue that the best course of action would be to work within the company to achieve licensing compliance. If successful then everybody wins. Software companies get their compensation and the company doesn't get decimated by penalties thereby meaning the line workers get to keep their jobs.

I dunno...does this just come off as weak rationalization?

The ironic thing is that the same company that would pirate software would certainly fire employees for stealing from the company or file suits in defense of patents.

RE: Software Piracy

Hi Binary,

I agree with you, many times companies are hesitant to purchase software until they see the fruits of the labour, so many software companies now offer free versions of there software for a limited time period, if you can't use it productively in this time it's probably not worth it.

This evolvement is win-win and as professionals it removes the ethical issue.

Regards

VOD

RE: Software Piracy

>The Tick:

>I think the ethics in this case are actually as clear as >ethics can get.  It gets muddy when you throw in wife, >kids, mortgage, career, etc.

I agree with that %100.  It's one thing to say it's wrong and that the company should be turned in and that the feds will protect you.

It's another thing to know that the financial impact of the fines will bankrupt the company and put everyone out of work.

My personal opinion on this is that the situation won't really improve until everyone does something about it.  That would be users as well as the software companies.  AutoCAD is a great example.  They know people are pirating the software, so they sell it for 10 times more than it's worth, to make up the lost money.  A small company can't afford to pay such a ridiculous price for the software, so they buy one seat and copy the rest.  The cylce is perpetuated.

RE: Software Piracy

Another interesting aspect of piracy is that of the small business operator. This person may have an office and a home office. What if that person worked for themselves and did the majority of the work at the main office and some tidy up type works at the home office (finish the odd job, update the accounts, etc).

Many of the main engineering software suppliers seem to assist this by the use of dongles or transferable licenses (autocad). Many of the major office software suppliers do not (microsoft, intuit (quickbooks accounting)), yet these very companies are the main complaintants when it comes to piracy.

I know the small business person could use a laptop, which are generally not that great for engineering software (unless you spend a small fortune) but suitable for business software.

I think that many vendors could reduce the risk of piracy by simple use of dongles or license transfer software. Whether a person is in a small business or large if they did some work at home it is possible to take the dongle/license with them. The end result would be a great reduction in piracy.

I know I would be happy to pay any extra for this.


regards
sc

RE: Software Piracy

sc,
For many pc-based software a few years back, I recall that one was allowed multiple installs of the software so long as they were not in simultaneous use.  The intent of this was to allow for such as you have described. I would expect that for many softwares, this no longer holds (as I don't know how somebody could unequivocally prove multiple simultaneous use short of the user confessing their guilt).

I recall that my wife encountered this some years back, with respect to a piece of software which was simultaneously loaded on her laptop and workstation. According to the user agreement, this was acceptable practice. As both machines were hers, the code was never in simultaneous use.

Brad

RE: Software Piracy

It would be nice if the software publishers actually made it easier to install multiple copies. At the moment to install microsoft and intuit products to multiple machines (read one at office and one at home) you have to register each installation.

Microsoft is at the moment OK with this but reading vaious magazines this may not be the case for much longer. Intuit on the other hand makes it damn tedious at the best to register a second installation and will often leave you feeling like you are lying to them. If it is OK to have more than one installation why not have a registration method that allows a second install without the 10 minute quiz on the legality of the installation. God forbid if you are upgrading your PC or rebuilding after a fairly major crash, as any more than 2 registration attempts in the one year is generally worse again.

I guess my post should have been directed at the registration process rather than the licensing issue although they are related.

regards
sc

RE: Software Piracy

(OP)
I believe that the Autodesk license does (or certainly did) permit a user to install the software on his/her personal machine at home if it was also installed on her/his machine at work.

At least that's what the sales rep told us. I never read the EULA so I don't know for sure.

RE: Software Piracy

Yes Autodesk does allow multiple installations, however in Australia they have a "transferable" license.

This allows you to export the license file to another PC, which is quite quick and easy. So you only need one license but can use it where-ever you wish to install the software.



If Autodesk can do it so easily why not other companies? Probably some copyright on the license software or related cost issue. To me it is better to pay a little bit extra up front, than to feel like a criminal when you wish to have an additional instal at home.

regards
sc

RE: Software Piracy

This is my first post and I hope that I can relay some information as well as receive some advice from you good people.

I’m a CNC programmer. I got a job working in the Model Shop at a fairly large company that manufactures firearms. I’ve been there 90 days and I’ve just been given my 90 day review and a pay raise. I’ve also been told that I’m being reviewed for a promotion to the R&D lab as I’ve been working with those guys “making their parts for them” and they are very happy that I can do the work.

In order to do the 3D stuff I’ve got to leave the model shop and go into the “Engineering” dept. and use the computers in order to download the models and write the CNC programs for the machining centers. I’ve been given the passwords and login for four PC’s that I’m allowed to use.

Well, here’s the kicker…The CAM software is “Hot” and they know about it. The four seats that I know about are not licensed to the company that I work for. Apparently the production software that they use to make the production parts doesn’t have the “Horsepower” to do the tough jobs so the R&D guys use the bootleg CAM software. One guy says that his PC has a version that he purchased himself and that he has the license. (I believe that he may have been contract and then signed on permanent so it’s possible that it really does belong to him) It’s not licensed to the company. The other seat(s) is a cracked version and they openly admit it. They don’t like me using the “Hot” seats so they steer me toward the “Licensed” seat whenever they can.

Having been on all seats I can attest to the fact that just about every product that they manufacture has been prototyped using the bootleg software and that millions and millions of dollars worth of military contracts have been secured as the direct result.

I feel terrible using the software. I went to two different schools for three semesters in order to learn how to use the stuff to write programs and the software company even gave me a break on a student version so that I could use it at home on my own PC. Not to mention the fact that I think about the poor bastard(s) that racked his brain writing the code that makes my job so much easier.

I don’t know what to do, quit….Dial 1-800 you’re %&8@ed or just keep my mouth shut and try to do my work without using the software. I really enjoy the work as it is definitely interesting stuff but I was raised different.

Anyway thanks for listening and allowing me to spill my guts. I could use a few suggestions on how to proceed.

Regards,
                Toolpath

 

RE: Software Piracy

In a nutshell, you are screwed whatever you do.

If you report the company then you may lose a job you want. If you do not then you are guilty of a crime.

Make no mistake, stealing software is a crime.

Which would you rather be, an ethical unemployed engineer or an unethical employed engineer?

How would the company react if their designs were copied and manufactured by another company without them getting any payment or other royalty for their work?

Start off by working within the company to bring them into compliance with the licensing of the product, if that does not work then you really have no ethical way out rather than reporting the firm.

It will be an unfortunate outcome of that that you will most likely lose your job.


I also find it ironic, since I am also active in a political forum, where the Second Amendment supporters claim that guns reduce crime, that a gun manufacturer would be guilty of a crime.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

JamesBarlow and TheTick have some very good points.  While it's obvious what is right and wrong, it isn't necessarily obvious what the best decision is.  The ethics don't pay bills, or feed your children after all.  

RE: Software Piracy

Ethics are absolute not situational.

If you are found guilty of unethical or illegal conduct then toy will lose you license to practice engineering as well as your job.

Then how will you pay the bills with no job and lower job opportunities?

Just because you are participating in stealing from a big nameless corporation does not make it right in any way shape or form.

Would the company react to say a Chinese arms manufacturer stealing their designs and selling identical products at a lower cost because they do not have any design overhead costs? How is that different than what is happening?

Can anyone differentiate between stealing the designs of a fellow professional and using them without the right to do so and stealing the software product of other professionals?

How high in the company does the conspiracy extend? In Canada a director of a company would have some liability to ensure that the company is not acting in a criminal manner. If the same applies in the US then the Board of Directors could be liable for the actions of the staff, if it is happening with their knowledge then they too could face criminal charges.

Under copyright laws in Canada if you have a pirate copy of software and this is further copied they you could be compelled to buy licenses for all copies made downstream from your copy. Since a manufacturing concern would presumably have more assets than students and teenage hackers, guess who the software company will recover from.

Did anyone take a hacked copy home and let their kids play with it and perhaps pass a copy on?

Ethics are sufficient reason to comply with copyright laws, the potential legal liability and criminal penalties should convince the unethical.

Personally I would not work for a company that practiced and condoned software piracy. If they will screw another company then sooner or later they will screw you. If they are charged then why would they not simply blame the new gut and put it all on you?

I want to protect my integrity, my license and my assets more than I want to save a couple hundred or couple thousand dollars on unsupported illegal software.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

I started using MathCad at a major oil company.  After a while I started wondering about licence issues and found out that the IT guy who put it on my machine had brought it from home without buying an extra license (if his copy at home was even legal).  I uninstalled it that day and asked my boss if I could buy a copy.  He said "no, software purchases have to be approved by corporate and MathCad isn't on their list" (which is why the IT guy did what he did, trying to satisfy my need while circumventing a silly policy).

I gave up and bought a copy with my own money.  I know it is stupid to subsidise a company from your own pocket, but I didn't want to go back to Excel and paid for it.  There is a grey area between stealing and policy (or budgetary) constraints.  The good news is that a few months later I showed my boss an analysis done in MathCad and he questioned me on the software.  When I told him it was legal and I had paid for it he told me to put the cost on my expense acount and we just wouldn't tell IT.

That worked for a few-hundred-dollar package.  Solid Works for $10,000 or a pipeline model for $20,000 would be a different analysis, but I'm not sure I wouldn't reach the same conclusion.  If the alternatives are stealing, quitting, or investing then who knows.

David

RE: Software Piracy

I agree that a lot of companies have software purchase policies that get in the way of doing your job.

However if they had a policy that said that you could not buy pens would that justify shoplifting them from an office supply store?

The only real difference between shoplifting pens and software piracy is that you are more likely to get caught stealing from Office Depot or Staples than from a major software company.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

How likely are you to lose your license for your company using cracked software?  There are plenty of engineers out there who get in trouble for violations related to human safety and get a small fine and probabtion out of it and have their licenses for years to come.  

I'm by no means advocating using cracked software.  I just think that it isn't as simple as black and white for some people.  Personally I think the solution to try to work it out with the company first is a good one and if not, then move on and blow the whistle.  Just don't rock the boat while you still need your income.  That is of course my opinion.

RE: Software Piracy

Realistically I doubt if you would lose a license for a first offence of software piracy.

On the other hand every three years when I renew my errors and omissions insurance I’m asked by the insurance company if I have ever had any complaints against me with the association.

This have to be answered truthfully both for ethical reasons and because lying would invalidate the insurance coverage.

I’d guess that I might not be able to afford insurance, which I am legally required to have to operate, if I had a sustained complaint against me.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

I've started looking for another job.

RE: Software Piracy

That is a very good point RDK.  I did not know that about the insurance company.

RE: Software Piracy

kuddoes to Toolpath!  as long as people don't stand their ground, no one's work product is safe.  If they steal (don't value the work of others),  ultimately their actions will extend to their treatment of you personally.

Years ago,  when I started at a firm there was pirated software on the work computer.  i didn't know.  when my computer crashed,  in the rebuild of it, I found out that the software was not on the up and up.  They did not have the backup discs.

I asked them to purchase the software to access work for revisions. I ended up with a geriatric version of the software I regularly used.  Having to redo almost every job from scratch when a revision or expansion of scope came along - Finally,  I went out and bought a newer license on my own for work.

When I eventually resigned over other noon-resolvable issues,  I offered my employers the opportunity to buy the software license at the cost I paid for it.  Doing them a favor was at that point a generous and unnecessary kindness. The GM wanted the original receipt.  It was not a high dollar item, and I told them that this was the price, and I would write a receipt.  The owner did not care to buy the license.  Ironically,  they experienced firsthand the ongoing impossibility to access their own work product just as I had - which caused me to buy the software in the first place.  

I was removing / packing my possessions from the office on the way out the door about fifteen minutes later.  The general manager eventually was literally throwing money at me from his wallet to keep the software. I had just finished the uninstall process.  "Sorry, too late."
As he walked away from my workstation  I executed the Control>Alt>Delete.  I still get that nice warm fuzzy feeling, 9 years after the fact.

Having written software and working in design / build / manufacturing,  there is no shortcut for honesty in the workplace or client relationships. Eventually (it might take years) but people do get their just desserts - the bitter and the sweet.

Sadly, it is my feeling that the only way to prevent software piracy is two ways,  contractural declarations between clients & firms that they will not use pirated or stolen intellectual property,  and that software companies have ongoing validation at a master server of the license for each and every use.  That is alot of work, but CATIA and Atmosphere did it.  Dongles can be engineered & purchased, so they are not an adequate protection against piracy.

RE: Software Piracy

I have an interview with another company that manufactures underwater connectors. I figure that I'll be asked why I'm leaving when I give my notice and I'll give them my explanation then.

My manager told me last Friday that he wrote me up for the employee of the month for October.

One thing that I do find comforting is that I've come to realize that I've got "The Right Stuff" to go anywhere and write programs to manufacture just about anything.

I still learn something new just about every day but I think I'm getting the hang of it. (Smiles)

Thanks guys,
             Toolpath

RE: Software Piracy

There is another view.

It's nice that you've found another job, because it may be that you're not really happy where you are.  That's a shame, because they apparently appreciate you.

Having worked for one of the largest (THE largest?) defense contractors in existence, it's quite possible that you're not aware of all of the details.  If, as you say, they've earned literally "millions and millions of dollars worth of military contracts", it makes no sense that they would not have purchased the software you mention.  Do you really think they're just trying to save a few thousand dollars?

Any company earning defense contracts worth "millions and millions of dollars" has defense auditors, program and project officers, and any number of other Government regulators in their pants about every aspect of their business.  I doubt seriously that they would knowingly risk charges of software piracy from anyone.

Yet, many in this thread (and, you, too) automatically assume that the "fairly large company" must be evil and a software pirate.

The simplest explanation may be that they've purchased the software, but it's held up with red tape.  In large corporations - including defense contractors - the intent to purchase is all that's required - as long as it's documented (a purchase order somewhere in the system).  Sometimes that process may take a year or more.  That may seem ridiculous, but I have seen it.

There are many other possibilities.  They may have one legitimate copy and "cracked" the others as you say, to prove prototypes.  R&D does squirrely stuff as the norm.  It may or may not pan out.  I've seen cases where they may even have a gentlemen's agreement with the software salesman.  Or, the machines may not be compatible without a sea change of manufacturing policy within the company.  They could be developing that case with some internal agreements.  It could also be a political decision, where the customer has certain agreements with regard to which resources are used.  Again, something that may be resolved in the future - or held up in long-term negotiations unbeknownst to you.

In fact, the R&D Engineers themselves may have copied the software without their Mgmt's approval, and have the company at risk.  Very few managers have any idea what R&D is using, much less understand it.  You might be able to save the company from legal danger - if you honestly discussed it with someone.

Instead, it seems to me much too easy to assume that the company must be trying to "get away with something."

RE: Software Piracy

I suppose this should come up too, what is the legality of using a copy of a program that can not longer be purchased, is not supported by the manufacturer and has finished the lifecycle?

I have encountered this before trying to open obsolete files and the only route to opening the files was finding a copy without a licence.

Anyone run into this?

RE: Software Piracy


If you created the data you should have the original program and be able to access that data.

If you lost the original disks then you should use your backup set of the disks and reinstall the program.

Only if you did not have a backup of the program (and yes I have full off site backups of everything) then using a copy would be acceptable, after all you still have the license to use the program which is all you bought in the first place.


No matter which way you slice it there is no rationalization fro theft of intellectual property.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

Your definition of "rationalization", "theft", and "intellectual property" are subject to the same legal scrutiny as someone accused of those things.

The fact is, these are not situational ethics.  Instead, we are living through the evolution of applying existing standards of property, purchase, and contract with the new paradigm of digital capability.

I have managed and participated in contracts where the buyer purchases the intellectual property and owns it, period.  If they desire to share that property with anyone else in that organization - even to the extent of copying ad infinitum - it is still within the contract.  A-E designs sold to the Government (or Defense Contractors) are handled in exactly this way.  Yet, if such material were placed in the same regard as a software purchase, they could never be referenced outside of the original drawing set, or the single copy such a license may grant.

If a firm buys an entire set of codes - they can go into a library and be accessed by numerous individuals and copied,   ad nausea, internally within the organization.  This is their right as licensed holders of the information.  Yet, if  they purchased a digital copy, the license states that it cannot be placed on a network.  This would only make it available to other company personnel in the same way as the hard copies.  In many cases, there is no opportunity to do otherwise - per the "desired" license of the code organization.

Some software authors refuse to sell to a company except as site licenses.  In that case, the rules for copying and installing are clear.  However, in many cases, the licenses are written in the interests of the software entity - to maximize profit: large companies have large numbers of users.  In those cases, alternatives are not offered and the license is written for the advantage of the software company, not the customer.

Who sets the license: the buyer with whom the contractor wishes to sell, or the seller?  Does the seller formulate a license with whatever restriction they want and it then becomes legal?  Or does the buyer set the restrictions?  Which is right?

These things are still being decided.

RE: Software Piracy

The software license, such as it is, is in force the moment you use the software.  You've legally obligated yourself to adhere to the requirements of the license.  

If you disagree with the license, your options are to re-negotiate with the company, write your own, or buy someone else's product.  There is no gray area here.

TTFN



RE: Software Piracy

Respectfully, I disagree.  A software author cannot arbitrarily insert restrictions of any kind into a license agreement and have it judged legal in every case.

RE: Software Piracy

Why not?  It's his intellectual property, unless you specifically contracted with him to pay for the development.  

Short of making you do something illegal, any usage restrictions are contractually binding, once you agree to use the software.

The only cases where this has failed is when the author has used such restrictions to prevent competition.

TTFN



RE: Software Piracy

Well, you just cited one example.

That's not the real point I was trying to make, though.  Having a software package without a purchased license is generally accepted by the court as a crime.  Additional copies, and the restrictions governing them, are not so clear.

The case portrayed by Toolpath is not a slam-dunk when it comes to law-breaking.  If it really is R&D, the entire system maybe prototyping - including the software.  He acknowledged that they didn't like him using anything but the licensed machine.

Any number of scenarios may be described to justify the environment that he (and the rest of you) automatically assumed was illegal.

RE: Software Piracy

Try contract law.  If they accept your money with no terms and conditions agreed to prior to the exchange of consideration for product, you own it, subject to copyright laws.  The attempt to add conditions after the fact doesn't matter since you now own the product and the originator no longer has any hold or control.  Want to check if you really own it, try this:  Did you pay sales tax on it; do you pay sales tax on a lease?  Do you get to depreciate the asset on your taxes; do you get to do that on something you don't own?

Just like you couldn't buy one copy of a book and make copies for everybody in the office, you can't buy one copy of the software and make copies for everyone in the office, but that's copyright and the "license" doesn't matter.

On the other hand, if there are usage restrictions agreed to as part of the sales process, prior to money changing hands, they have full force.

(I am not a lawyer, nor do I even play one on TV)

RE: Software Piracy

Quote:

They don’t like me using the “Hot” seats so they steer me toward the “Licensed” seat whenever they can.

Not much to have to assume

TTFN



RE: Software Piracy

Except his perspective, which may be limited.  Again, it goes back to the automatic conclusion - which is an assumption - that they are breaking the law.

All discussions of software licensing and copying aside (which are not completely settled), there are still huge questions that go unanswered in everyone's rush to judgment.  Toolpath was not privy to the purchase, he was not necessarily aware of any ongoing negotiation/discussion/vendor agreements, nor was he even certain of the relationship of the "contracted" employee.

I again point out - what is the rationale behind a company who earns "millions and millions of dollars worth of military contracts" to skimp on a few thousand dollars (or a few hundred?) of software and perhaps jeopardize the whole operation?

It doesn't make sense, it's not logical, and it's un-American to assume the guilt.  Even if what Toolpath claims is all true, it still doesn't mean that Mgmt knows it.  The whole situation may exist because a couple of R&D Engineers are too lazy to fill out paperwork or wait for legitimate copies - and the company doesn't actually know.  Yet, everyone in this thread is ready to believe what may be his very-limited exposure (nothing personal toward Toolpath) and that the company is deceitful, dishonest, and unlawful.

One might say that "Engineers" are supposed to use more reasoning than that.  However, continuing to state the same things several times is unproductive, so no more from me on this subject.

RE: Software Piracy

RDK, What if I have not created the original data despite my ownership of it?   Say I contracted a company to create a database of materials on products I used in 1985.

I used this database for 5 years at which time I switched to windows and constructed a new database as most of our material had changed anyway.

Now in 2005, a customer needs to know what product he was shipped and the info is in that database.  I no longer own or can even purchase an IBM XT or whatever used to run the DOS software and it is incompatible with all current windows platforms DOS modes (this can happen)

Now the company that provided the software originally is bankrupt, gone, kaput, but they did produce a Win 3.1 Version that I can get to run on a machine.  Trouble is we never bought that version, and can't now as the company is gone.

I would technically have to steal/copy the software to access my data.  But is it stealing or piracy if the owner of the intellectual property has abandoned their stake in it.

Patents can expire, is it possible for intellectual property ownership to expire?  Or is it left as patents are to the owner to defend ownership?  Ie if I do nothing to prevent use of my IP then I'm effectively giving up ownership.

RE: Software Piracy

Good business practices would have been to have the data is a source that you could access.

Most commercial software uses available data formats that are readable and well known. Even custom data bases uses the same commercial data base engines and formats. (I may have used software terms incorrectly, I’m civil not computer.)

The bottom line is that most data is available somehow  through other  some means.

Have you truly exhausted all avenues to get your data other than to run illegal software?

Have you contacted the current owners of the software, it would have been an asset in the bankruptcy proceedings to see if you can acquire a license or at least permission to use the software?

Copyrights can expire but that will not happen on any software that would still have useful data for a long time (50 years after the death of the author I believe.)

Have you contacted the software community to see if someone can write a conversion program to get the data?  Somebody at www.rentacoder.com  may be able to convert the data for you.

Have you reviewed all paper records of the past work to see if the answer exists in paper?

Sorry Slowzuki but all you have done is rationalized theft, not made a case of some compelling interest to use the illegal software.


I’ll agree that theft is the easiest way out of this situation and that it is low risk theft in that not only is it difficult to catch software thieves but in the case you outlined there would not even be anyone looking for that crime.

But it is still theft.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

Rick,

I don't think Slowzuki's case is quite so clear cut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

I remember a case of some sort several years back where someone was prosecuted for a crime based on evidence found in their trash can - the one put out to the street for collection.  The defendent claimed that it was an illegal search of his property.  The courts ruled that by putting the stuff out to the trash, he had relinquished a claim to it, so there was no crime committed in taking it.  

Obviously, this does not affect copyright law, but I think it does bear on a discussion of the ethics of this situation.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

RE: Software Piracy

Theft by definition involves a victim, in this case the copyright holder. If all reasonable means have been taken to find and compensate the present copyright holder have been taken without luck, I see no crime in using the IP. In Slowzuki's case, the next step might be to contact the bankruptcy court to see where that particular asset went.

RE: Software Piracy

I must confess that I am potentially guilty of, or at least complacent in, violating software property rights.  After reading the ethical reasoning in this thread have forced me to evaluate my responsibility, and have decided to attempt bringing the company I work for into compliance (as I am in a position of doing so).  

One central question posed in this thread is whether it is right to stay with an employer that uses illegal software?  If I were to leave immediately, the company would remain using pirated software, and if I stay I can probably help prevent patent infringement!  (To use an absurdity; am I driving a car, stolen by a friend, until I can afford my own?)

However, while both wrong, I do not think that equating software piracy with common theft is intellectually honest.  If someone worked at a company where software rights were violated, that person should attempt within his realm of influence to change policy, or potentially seek other employment.  (A man who poaches on the king's property to feed his family is committing a crime, but still making a wise decision as long as he intends on ceasing the hunt when other food sources are available.)  If an employee fails to change policy after informing management, he still has to earn a living, and his waiting it out in the current climate might be the right choice.

RE: Software Piracy

RDK,

I certainly agree good business practice can remedy most situations.  I wouldn't yet call my actions or theoretical actions rationialized theft.

To take another angle, many software packages include a comment in the licence preventing the reverse engineering of the software or the data produced.  If the company folds and is not purchased by another company, am I in the right hiring another company to extract my data from their software?

If so, I would be extremely leary of any company offering services hosted on their own servers.  I would also be very leary of the wording included on many software packages now claiming to only offer the lease of the software or seat for a specific duration revokable at any time.  

This type of arrangement is ripe for abuse by the manufacturer of the software.

We as engineers are prevented from doing anything like this with our IP, imagine if we could revoke a design of a building (or set an expiry date) and required the owners to have a new set of plans and calcs prepared before it could be occupied again.  This would of course put the original creator of the design in a much better position than the rest of the market.

I have taken enough business courses that I feel that many companies lean heavily (to the point of abusing?) on the IP rights to leverage their market position instead of striving to produce a competitive product.  I suppose this is why some software companies making a lot of money doing this have received some slaps on the wrist.

So when a company leveraging this IP right goes under and no one buys their rights to a product and it is trashed when the bankruptcy is settled, is it still stealing?

I'll have to start reading some of these license agreements we all click on without reading!

RE: Software Piracy

Sorry StressGuy, I really do not see any parallel.

Yes your trash on the street is fair game, that’s why I have a shredder for all important trash.

How does this affect the software copyright issue? If they threw out copies of the software they never threw out the license only the media it was printed on. Read a typical EUL agreement, all you are buying is the disks and manuals and a license to use the software in accordance with that agreement.)

Your example is more line saying that if a record company threw out a copy of a music CD that they were relinquishing all claim to the rights of that music and that it was free to copy and distribute.

Copyrights can lapse. In Canada Aspirin is still a trademark of Bayer. In the US it is a generic name for ASA. The copyright was stripped in the US under trading with the enemy laws. Linoleum is now a generic product, it once was a trade name for a specific brand of floor covering and its trademark lapsed due to the company allowing it to fall into common use.

Similarly copyrights lapse after some period of time. Thus the works of Shakespeare and Dickens are now public domain.

However the passage of time is not sufficient to let anything in the computer world lapse into the public domain.

The only way that the software could become public domain was if the owner did not protect its rights be allowing illegal copying of the software. This is similar to squatter’s rights in real estate law. If you allow public free access across your property then sooner or later you lose the ability to stop that access. (The CPR has a private crossing near by that they allow the public to use. Once a year they block access for 24 hours to maintain their rights to the property and to allow them to close the crossing if they want.)

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

Rlzpenny

I would take a look at why the company was using pirated software in the first place.

Was it a decision of management to do so or was it the well intentioned but misguided actions of some lower ranking employees that allowed the software to be installed.

If the company’s senior management made a decision to use illegal software then that would bode ill for the ethical nature of the people and the company’s ethos in general. That sort of company I would leave fairly quickly since there is seldom honour among thieves.

If it was the misguided but well meant actions of a few lower individuals then I’d embark on an educational campaign to inform them of the nature of their acts and make an attempt to clean up things as much as possible.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

I'll disagree a bit with RDK.  Management has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that all their employees behave ethically.  

In the "few bad apples" case, one has to at least question the competence, if not the integrity, of a management structure that reaps the benefits of pirated software, yet never questions how they are able to spend zero dollars on software maintenance every year.  The "see no evil" approach in management is bogus.  At best, they are incompetent.  At worst, they are simply turning the blind eye to hide behind a plausible deniability defense.

TTFN



RE: Software Piracy

"the owner did not protect its rights be allowing illegal copying of the software."

Isn't this the same as "Now the company that provided the software originally is bankrupt, gone, kaput"?

If the company no longer exists, how can it protect its copyright?

RE: Software Piracy

   Might I suggest Free Software http://www.gnu.org?

   Whenever possible, you should use open document formats to store your critical information.  When you update your platform, you have the option of porting the application to it, or getting someone to write code to import your data to your new software.  This is feasible due to your access to the source code, and legal and ethical due to the unrestrictive GNU copyright.  

   If you are preparing text documents, you would be surprised at how easy it is to write HTML code with a text editor like NOTEPAD.  Under theses conditions, HTML is an open format, and you know how it works.  

   If you store your critical data in a proprietary format, you are not completely in control of it.  

                               JHG

RE: Software Piracy

"If the company no longer exists, how can it protect its copyright?"

In bankruptcy, assets go to the creditors. It is then up to the creditor (new copyright owner) to protect its rights. If the copyright holder dies, the copyright is inherited.

If I own a car, I may elect to not sell or rent it at any price. It remains useful to me as a car. But a copyright is only useful if it is licensed out or sold. If payment is tendered and refused for some old program, is there really an ethical or legal obligation to not use it?

RE: Software Piracy

Yes there is an obligation not to use software that you do not own.

If I offered to buy your car and you refused to sell it to me would I be justified in stealing it?

The owner of the copyright has the right to refuse to sell it to you.

You then do not have the right to steal it.

Bottom line keep your data in a format that will allow you to access it in the future. That means open source data formats, converting data or keeping paper copies.

Just because stealing the software is the easiest way to access your data does not give you the right to steal it.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

stevenal is getting closer to what I'm concerned about.  In Canada a corperation is almost the same as a ficticious person for property rights and many other things.

If a corperation winds up and the creditors don't want some of the assets then they are disposed of.  A recent case locally included a software company and a small bank.  The company defaulted on its 6 million dollar loan with the bank with physical assets of about 15 cents on the dollar.

The companies assets were all software that required intensive marketing and support to recover any value and also required staff involved in their creation for maintenance.

None of the guarateed creditors where interested and none of the remaining creditors including former employees were interested enough to exchange the software for even part of their salary owed.  The bank allowed the computer on which the source code was stored to be formated before auction losing the 6 million dollar investment.

So now about a dozen clients in North America have copies of the software which is end of lined.  No one retains the source code (except one employee who stole the code earlier before being fired but that is separate) and no one claims ownership.  The clients agreement says they will rely on company X for any upgrades / changes but company X does not exist and their product was not purchased by anyone.  The company name was not even purchased by competitors.

Can they update their own code?  Yes it has to be reverse engineered with having the source code.  None would likely do it due to cost but do they have a right to?

RE: Software Piracy

What used to be spa.org is now siia.net.  They have this to say about piracy:

http://www.siia.net/piracy/whatis.asp


This page covers their position on 'abandonware':

http://www.siia.net/piracy/faq.asp

It appears that anyone attempting to resurrect software that is truly abandoned, may keep a few lawyers employed, one way or another.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Software Piracy


The bank now owns the copyright to the source code. It’s that simple. They acquired it with all the other assets during the bankruptcy and even if they don’t want to sell it or support it they still have those rights. If you were a licensed holder of a legal copy you still can use the software in accordance with the terms of the license.

Ask the bank or offer to buy the source code rights. I’m sure that the bank would say license the rights to the collective owners for some amount. It may even be a token amount. However if they don’t want to sell it to you, you cannot justifying stealing it.

If I owned a GM car and they went bankrupt would that entitle me to steal parts from the creditors?

Same thing except we are talking about intellectual property instead of physical property.

So far all I have heard here is that theft is allowable if you will not get caught and it’s the most economical option.

If you are using propitiatory software then make sure that your data can be converted to some open source or other common long term commercially available software data engine. That’s simply good business practices.

That way if your supplier goes bankrupt you will not feel justified in resorting to theft to have access to your data.

I have a problem with why some people feel that just because they will not get caught that this theft is justified.

If your design was going to be used to build another building somewhere where you would never know that the building was being built would the person be justified in re-using your design? No different for software.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

The difference between the car and the software copyright is that the car is useful in itself. If the bank refuses to negotiate for the source code rights in the scenario above, the copyright has lost all value. It has been abandoned like the trash Stressguy mentioned, and there is no victim for theft to occur. My opinion here, seems the law may not agree. Not all laws are just.

RE: Software Piracy

So if a bank foreclosed on a car and refused to negotiate selling or renting it to you, you would be justified in stealing it?

Whether or not the bank in using the car or not is irrelevant.

Whether or not the previous owner had rented the car to someone else who gave you a ride in it is also irrelevant

That is exactly analogous to the issue about using a pirate copy of software that belonged to a now bankrupt company.

The bank may not want to negotiate licensing it to you or not. It is their property and theirs to do with as they see fit. Same as if they had forclosed on a car.

Just because you had someone else enter data through the software once, similar to being given a ride in the car, you have no further rights.

Al this discussion is doing is trying to justify stealing something simply because it is the easiest and quickest way out of a problem created by your own lack of due diligence in protecting your data by having it is a format that would be accessible to you long after the original software company went bankrupt.

We are engineers. That means two things in this discussion. The first is that we should be able to plan ahead and foresee the possible problems that may occur and take the necessary actions to avoid or at least mitigate those problems. Bankrupt software companies is a possibility just the same as the 1:100 year storm is a possibility in a building design.

The second is that we are professionals and bound by a code of ethics to obey the lay and not to steal items of value just because it is the easiest way out of our own predicament.

Remember our fellow engineers created this software and they are entitled to fair compensation for their work. If you can not find them to pay them for their work then do without it, don’t steal it.





Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Software Piracy

Another way to view it is that you left a CD in a car that has been deemed unfit to drive on the public highway and impounded. Should you steal the car from the impound (ignoring any safety issues - its only an analogy!) so you can drive round listening to your music, should you break into the car and retrieve your CD so that you can acquire another car to drive round in listening to your music or should you just accept that that music is lost forever because you didn't take steps to remove the CD before the car got so bad it couldn't be driven again.

I think my view is somewhere around the middle option when we are talking about a software company going bankrupt but the discussion has certainly got me thinking.

RE: Software Piracy

To take the analogy a bit further - suppose you had left something in someone else's car, by mistake, and then shortly after it was foreclosed on?  Wouldn't you be justified in obtaining access to the vehicle to reclaim the item?  Isn't this the same as accessing the software to retrieve data?  If the software is loaded, the data retrieved (over which you have copyright!), and then the software is unloaded again, is this unethical, in the case where you have made due diligence to obtain legal rights to use the software, but have been unable to do so?  

It's all very well to say that the data should have been taken out first, but it seems that in the above case, the data that was thought to be required was taken out, and it only came to light at a later data that additional data was required, and not copied across.  

Having said all the above - someone must have the licence for this software, otherwise how else could you get a copy?  If so, it may be possible for the licence holder to retrieve this information for you (akin to asking for the item left in the car to be returned to you, instead of asking for access to the car to retrieve the item).

RE: Software Piracy

Toolpath,
My hat off to you for taking such an ethical stance.  I wonder why, though, you haven't been to your manager, or his/her manager to ask them to explain why you are being asked to use pirated software, and explain that you wouldn't think it ethical if you copied design details for their firearms and handed it on to a third party?  It seems as though you enjoy your job and they appreciate you, and that they have no other problems with you, so why not?

kchayfie,
I starting writing my last post before you submitted yours, so apologies - it appears we made the same point.

RE: Software Piracy

I see we have diverted a bit from the original posters Q but have had an interesting discussion.

I think everyone would agree that open file formats benefit the consumer but not the software provider.  Business planning and careful evaluation of software systems for their use and future retirement are needed in an engineering enviroment to prevent having to make difficult choices about accessing your data.

Perhaps if we work together software companies will be prevented from forcing user agreements and/or proprietry data storage schemes on us.

For the Canadians at least, remember we must be able to access our records to defend our designs for forever plus the expiration time for filing a complaint.  The expiration time starts from the time of discovery of a fault or suspected fault.

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