×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Thoughts on General Notes

Thoughts on General Notes

Thoughts on General Notes

(OP)
I have an architect in my office who continually gripes about us putting "specifications" on our structural drawings. I've worked at several places throughout my career and we've always included a General Notes sheet. I think some people have differing ideas of what is required/what gets included on that sheet but everyone at least includes the IBC required info. I'm curious what other people in the industry do regarding General Notes and if there's any sort of industry standard. Does everyone include a general notes page? What information do you include and what is the rationale behind putting that info on the drawings rather than just including it all in the specs?

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

We use a Gen Notes page....usually a full sheet of notes.

Rationale behind using it:
1. Some times we don't have a specification book on smaller projects so we like to include specification type language to make up for that fact.
2. The building codes require some of the information (like seismic loads, etc.) to be included on the drawings. See early parts of IBC chapter 16.
3. Even with a specification book, many times the contractors will not really read them - so like to have things emphasized by including notes.
4. In future years, when the spec book is thrown away, its nice to have a documented record of material properties, strengths, misc. details, etc.
5. Sometimes a general note can create a design feature which is much easier than drawing or noting it throughout the sheets - an example: "All exposed ocncrete corners to have a 3/4" chamfer". Saves a lot of detailing time.

Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I'm heavy on the general notes sheets. I'd put everything there and not have specifications if I could. The practice does require careful coordination with the book spec to avoid conflicts though. From a process standpoint, as a sub-consultant, I really don't enjoy specifications. I feel as though I often don't exert enough control over them and I dislike hemorrhaging time when folks want my specs reformatted to match their stuff. I did a project last summer where the architect was using a spiffy database program to cook up a unified spec. Using my spec wasn't an option because it would mess up the coordinated checkbox thing they had going on with the software. They couldn't even export me a word file to edit. I had to mark it up in bluebeam without changing any of the base structure. 'Twas a nightmare.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

General notes all the way. If I never had to prepare another specification the rest of my career I'd retire a happy man. Similar to JAE's comment, rarely does the contractor and even more rare his sub-contractor ever read the specifications. But they finally are learning they better damn well read the general notes.

We have two different architects that we work with that include all of their section details and plan details on letter sized sheets in the spec. That's a nightmare, every time there are missed items both during design and construction due to this really poor way of organizing their drawing package.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

(OP)
The first firm that I worked at was a structural only consulting firm and they refused to do specs. They simply told the architects that they would include all necessary information on their drawings and that was that. We listed material requirements and submittal info in the general notes and let it go at that. I now work at a full service A/E firm and we almost always have a spec book that goes out with all our projects. My personal preference is to edit the spec book to have it read "as noted" or "as indicated" in as many places as possible. That way I can keep the specs pretty standard and just change my general notes as required on a job by job basis. For example, I don't like having to go to the specs to edit my deck type, gage, fasteners and fastener spacing.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Echoing what others have said, years ago I had a contractor tell me that spec books simply got thrown behind the seat of his pickup truck, unread. That was in the days when pickups had bench seat and did not have extended cabs. In other words, it got put in a holding bin before it was thrown away. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that it might be reality. Further, JAE's point about tracking down the spec book in future years is an astute one.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I've been forced to repeat much of the book specification information on my general notes. The city plan reviewers tell me they will not look at specifications. Flat out refused. I tell them that information is in the specifications (i.e. requirements for PEMB suppliers to submit calculations), and they make me put it on the drawings. It's not a negotiation. It's do it their way, or no permit. I've heard this more than once. Our company is very specifications oriented, so we still have to do them. We now have fill in the blank general notes, too.
The general notes have materials, loadings, seismic information, etc. on them. I've got to admit, when I look at an old project, I'm much more likely to get drawings than drawings and specifications. So it's easier to recreate the project with a general notes sheet.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I'll go ahead and throw everything in the specifications as long as the contractor agrees to read them. I mean actually read them, not flip through them for ten seconds and claim they've read them.

That said, I wouldn't do away with the specifications. A good set of specifications can save you when the contractor doesn't do something and claims it's the designer's fault because it's not shown anywhere. There's a lot of information in specifications that would be too cumbersome to include in drawings notes. Like QC requirements, tolerances, procedures for construction like masonry grouting, administrative procedures like substitution requests, detailed requirements for shop drawings and delegated designs, etc. If it's in the spec and the contractor has claimed/certified they've followed it, there's not a whole lot they can argue when you call them on something. I've avoided a fair amount of hassle with good specifications.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

My thoughts:

Put items on the drawing you need to happen to ensure project success or want to be recorded for the life of the project. Assume this is the only stuff that the contractor will read. Reference specification to limit clutter on less important items (QA/QC for example) but only if you absolutely cannot incorporate it into the drawings directly.

Put items in the specification to provide benchmarks of what needs to be done to avoid disputes (i.e. all the stuff you point at when the contractors asks "where does it say we need to do that?!"). Don't specify anything that doesn't need to be specified.

Above all, ensure specifications and drawing notes are actually relevant to the project and not just blindly copied notes from some masterspec document.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

(OP)
I agree that having some of the information on the drawings for situations in the future where the drawings exist but the specs are long gone. I do a fair amount of work on existing structures and having a set of the original drawings with design loads on them is about the best thing you can hope for. However, when we are talking about the contractors tossing out the spec book, does it seem like maybe we are enabling them by putting information on the drawings?

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (TME)

Above all, ensure specifications and drawing notes are actually relevant to the project and not just blindly copied notes from some masterspec document.

Doth I hear the angst of someone occasionally involved in delegated engineering? Been/am there.

"Precaster shall do insanely detailed diaphragm design for the incomplete lateral loads provided. And it shall satisfy me entirely even though I clearly don't know the first thing about diaphragm design myself."

"Precast plank to be designed such that all long term deflection takes place prior to erection". That's verbatim and is my favorite to date. Perhaps I could load the plank with sand bags out in the yard to match the SDL + sustained live load, leave it sit for nine months, and then race them out to site real fast.

Quote (MrHershey)

I mean actually read them, not flip through them for ten seconds and claim they've read them.

In slight defense of our contractor friends, I can't really read specs either, especially if they're not my discipline. They're insanely tedious. I once had to compare two slightly different versions of the same spec package in order to reconcile them contractually where a terrible QC error had occurred. I had to enlist the help of a younger fellow who could handle it without going nuts. What IS the appropriate VOC content to be used in the primer applied to the second claw of a sloth's foot when the ambient temperature is less than 20C? Sometimes I guess at bizarre stuff I don't know the answer to just to keep moving / tempt fate. Never had a single one come back to bite me.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Precast is a dangerous game - not me but someone designed precast bleachers for an arena here, with the stairs in the middle of the precast span. Of course the camber in the span varied quite a bit from bleacher to bleacher, and there was no grout allowance on the steps to even things out. I suppose a spec stating "precast sections to be perfectly level" would have surely sorted that out /s...

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (KootK)

Doth I hear the angst of someone occasionally involved in delegated engineering? Been/am there.

I'd love to trade delegated precast engineering gripes over a beer with you one day.

Some of my favorite:

"Complete calculations shall be submitted and reviewed where the reviewer will be dig to find even the slightest discrepancy between the shop drawings and your calculations so that we can justify our review work."

"The sand/salt storage building shall be built to the following specification..." followed by a few hundred spec pages relating to said sand/salt storage structure. We were supplying an underground electrical vault.

Quote (KootK)

In slight defense of our contractor friends, I can't really read specs either, especially if they're not my discipline.

To defend the spec writers, a good specification can be really nice. I love the MaineDOT project specifications and plans. It is very rare that I get caught unaware as the standard specifications cover most everything and thus once you've learned the standard spec it's fairly easy to parse the project specific specs. It makes our submittals to MaineDOT projects really smooth where we know exactly what to expect each and every time we bid a precast component for the state. I'd much rather have a well written spec than a poorly written spec, regardless of which side of the project I'm on.

The biggest benefit I've found to reading specs is if things are lumped together. For example, if you need to find all the steel fabrication requirements and they're in one section only then it's much easier to get a complete understanding of the requirements. Concrete work sucks because almost always reinforcement requirements are separate from concrete material requirements which are separate from precast and cast-in-place requirements... and so on.

Oh and for the love of toast; please make your PDF copies of your specifications searchable! It's 2018, why is your spec a bunch of scanned pages that can't be searched even via OCR?

Quote (KootK)

What IS the appropriate VOC content to be used in the primer applied to the second claw of a sloth's foot when the ambient temperature is less than 20C?

Star for the whole reply but this alone would have been deserving enough. Thanks for the chuckle.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote:

What IS the appropriate VOC content to be used in the primer applied to the second claw of a sloth's foot when the ambient temperature is less than 20C?

Kootk, you have quite a knack for entertaining us -- or at least expressing our frustrations -- in addition to your considerable technical knowledge.

Regarding this:

Quote:

They're insanely tedious.

I agree and view that issue as a net negative to our profession. Supposedly Abraham Lincoln wrote, "If I had more time I'd write you a shorter letter." That's probably apocryphal but the point is that it takes time to produce something that is elegant or concise. As for vomiting out page after page of "Contractor shalt/shalt not...", well, unfortunately that can be done with a press of a button in this computerized age.

I have had occasion to review old specifications and the difference between them and what we often see now was very noticeably. With the old specs I could actually read and understand the majority of them, even across disciplines. I suspect something about having to actually type them out on a typewriter made part of the difference.

And, unfortunately, in my opinion this extends beyond just specs. When structural members can be designed with the press of a button the understanding of the mechanics of the structural system sometimes suffers. Likewise, when drawings are made the same way they can become quite cluttered and/or poorly thought out.

And by the way, as for your example of the silly specification for the precast deflection, as I'm sure you're well aware, the guy specifying it had no idea what he was saying and therefore no way of checking up on it. So you could have "gotten away" with almost anything. But who wins in such a scenario?

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (Archie)

But who wins in such a scenario?

Much to my surprise, it turns out that I do. I've found a back door to the EOR client store. Goes like this:

1) Busy, inexperienced EOR puts out nonsensical crap.

2) Without discussing it overtly, contractor and I bond over how bad EOR drawings/specs are.

3) I take good care of my new contractor friend as far as my scope (precast) goes and help to steer things towards project success with a firm hand.

4) Contractor says "we've got this new project coming up that needs EOR and we're not happy with these guys. Can we recommend you?".

And voila! There's a shark in the water circling weak EOR's like wounded tuna. And thy name be KootK, your lowly delegated engineer!

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (TME)

I'd love to trade delegated precast engineering gripes over a beer with you one day.

This will happen. It's been on my long range todo list for some time. I've got business in the NE that will see me pay that area a visit eventually.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

KootK's not wrong. I've seen that play out as well and am in the process of trying to feast on some of these "wounded tunas".

Quote (KootK)

I've got business in the NE that will see me pay that area a visit eventually.

Hit me up when you do. I've got an airplane I can use and a good list of New England beers I want to try.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Well, Kootk, what you've described is a very constructive solution and you're right to get your name out there as a problem solver. I had in mind a less capable engineer coming up with a poor design with no one to back-check him. I guess the market would bear that out at some point but hopefully without anyone getting hurt in the process.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I've done a bunch of jobs lately where there are no specs.....just the general notes. But my general notes are thorough enough (and reference enough code) where it typically is no issue.

The person I think it helps the most is the steel fabricator. They almost never see/look at the project specs in my experience.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (Archie)

I had in mind a less capable engineer coming up with a poor design with no one to back-check him.

That's how you get canwest's bleachers.

Quote (WARose)

've done a bunch of jobs lately where there are no specs.....just the general notes.

My old boss would pride himself on getting a complicated project streamlined enough that it could all be done with the drawings and general notes; no specs. Sometimes I felt he stretched this a little far but we never had any issues that I recall and it was definitely a boon to the contractor.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (Archie)

I had in mind a less capable engineer coming up with a poor design with no one to back-check him. I guess the market would bear that out at some point but hopefully without anyone getting hurt in the process.

I knew what you were getting at Archie. Was just having a little fun with it around the margins. And I agree completely, the benefit to society of weak, irrelevant, uncoordinated specifications is net negative. Even in the scenario that I described, it's my gain weighed against losses for the EOR, contractor, owner, and a society at large that needs its resources deployed wisely. But alas, I wax philosophical yet again...

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote:

My old boss would pride himself on getting a complicated project streamlined enough that it could all be done with the drawings and general notes; no specs. Sometimes I felt he stretched this a little far but we never had any issues that I recall and it was definitely a boon to the contractor.

So many QC issues are addressed in codes (at this point) you can generally cover yourself by just referencing them (and the inspection requirements) in many instances.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I have always used General Notes. The day I started work in a design office, my first task was to hand letter a set of General Notes. Not recommending that now.

One trap is to not make clear in the Contract which takes preference, the Drawings or Specifications, for there will inevitably be conflicts. My choice is Drawings.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (hokie66)

One trap is to not make clear in the Contract which takes preference, the Drawings or Specifications, for there will inevitably be conflicts. My choice is Drawings.

Interesting. I didn't even know that this was an option. In my region, our insurers teach us that precedence goes: specs --> gen notes --> drawings and details. Like you, I'd really prefer that reversed. Although, I suppose that there's no reason one can't re-specify the order of precedence. It's all just words and decisions after all. People stuff. No laws of nature being violated.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

IME think drawings always take precedence, although in most cases my specs and notes usually state "unless noted otherwise", implying it might be noted otherwise on the drawings.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

My experience with precedence is the same as Koot's. Our insurer always tells us it goes Specs ---> Notes ---> Drawings.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Hmmm... what if for example you call out plate as 36ksi on the project but need a piece of 50ksi as part of some assembly and call it out as 50ksi on the drawing? Is the contractor right to provide 36ksi there?

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I think that would be where your "unless noted otherwise" comes into play.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (canwesteng)

Is the contractor right to provide 36ksi there?

Contractually, in my area, yes. Hard to imagine actually getting burned on that though. Agree with UNO.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

(OP)
I've always had language in my general notes that says the most stringent requirement governs in cases of a disagreement between the drawings and specs. So, for the given example, the 50 psi spec would take precedence.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

In my opinion, that "most stringent requirement" is unfair to the contractor, and may not be enforceable. Why should the contractor be required to rectify a faulty set of documents?

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Something like a single bit of plate at a different grade needs to be clearly noted, I tend to place extra emphasis on this on the drawings as experience tells me if they are going to miss something it's going to be this sort of thing.

I tend to think of the notes filling in the gaps in codes and standard specifications. To this end we used to have up to 10 notes sheets covering all sorts of things. Generally with a view to avoidance of past problems by pointing out specific issues and requirements.

Our notes always used to start with 'refer to our specifications for x, Y, z, etc, and these points were wholly covered in the specification. Remainder of notes covered items more specific to interpretation of the drawings and standard detailing requirements, etc. The point is there was a clear indication that the specifications and drawings needed to be read in conjunction with one another.

Also helps to explain this expectation to the contractor so they don't miss things. Everyone wants to review shop drawings for example that are right first time for example and not have to regurgitate every spec clause they should have read. Facilitate them to make your job and the project go much easier.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

We use both specifications and general notes...the difficulty is checking to see that the general notes don't conflict with the specs!

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I enjoy the boiler plate specifications that reference welding standards that have been out of print for more than fifty years or is nonexistance:

"All welds shall be first class workmanship and meet the requirements of the welding and cutting code for buildings."

Best regards - Al

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (hokie66)

In my opinion, that "most stringent requirement" is unfair to the contractor, and may not be enforceable. Why should the contractor be required to rectify a faulty set of documents?

Of course, in an ideal world. Safety must however come first in the real world where mistakes are made. It's hardly one-way traffic in terms of cost either. In an ideal world, all contractor mistakes would be fixed but, in the real world, there are non-conformance reports which are generally requests for dispensation that benefit nobody except the contractor.

Quote (KootK)

In my region, our insurers teach us that precedence goes: specs --> gen notes --> drawings and details. Like you, I'd really prefer that reversed.

Seems analogous to the general contract conditions taking precedence over special conditions. Never seen lawyers accept that...

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I can't really say if the Canadian legal/construction environment is exceptional in this regard. Here's a bit more on how it works here: Link. It's spelled out in the Canadian Construction Documents Committee forms here.

This related thread popped up in my googling: Link

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

Quote (OP)

what is the rationale behind putting that info on the drawings rather than just including it all in the specs?

If something's on the drawing there's at least some chance someone will read it.

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

The general note that cracks me up is the one that says something along the lines of "the contractor shall maintain the structure in a stable condition".

I wonder do surgeons have notes from the head consultant which read "the surgeon shall maintain the patient in an alive condition"

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

I often use project notes at the front of structural drawings and they may encompass several sheets; I try to avoid specifications since too often these are lost over the years. My text based drawing notes file is over 400K and growing. Notes are like a short form spec based on 'oversights' over the years.

Dik

RE: Thoughts on General Notes

We do structural steel connection design for fabricators. One of my “favorite” (i.e., most humorous) general notes was one where the engineer stated, “ONE-SIDED SHEAR CONNECTIONS ARE PROHIBITED, IF POSSIBLE.”

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources