Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Copper Projectile - Raw Material
(OP)
Greetings,
I am just reaching out to anyone who may have knowledge of the best supplier for raw material rod in pure copper. I need the best pricing. Does anyone have experience in this area? We are going to make projectiles for bullets.
Thanks,
Brent
I am just reaching out to anyone who may have knowledge of the best supplier for raw material rod in pure copper. I need the best pricing. Does anyone have experience in this area? We are going to make projectiles for bullets.
Thanks,
Brent





RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Aidan McAllister
Metallurgical Engineer
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Thanks,
Brent
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
I would also question the rationale behind the "pure" spec. Surely there is an alloy with more suitable mechanical properties.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Ornerynorsk, I will check impact extruders out. Thanks for the info.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Some research there, and discussion with your metal suppliers, should help you propose a few alloys that will be easier to deal with for you, and may better meet your customer's actual requirements, which seem a little fuzzy, so to speak.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
You said you'd like to "make projectiles for bullets". I'd like to point out that bullets ARE projectiles. They are the projectile component of a fixed ammunition cartridge.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
For larger orders these guys have everything you might want.
http://www.tkmna.com/tkmna/TKMNADivisions/Copperan...
https://www.ryerson.com/catalog/106
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
-They are easier to make than a copper-jacketed lead-core bullet. Less overhead required.
-The solid copper projectiles expand with more consistency than lead-core bullets that have copper jackets. (allowing design features that would potentially hinder a lead-core copper-jacket bullet)
-They don't fragment as badly when impacting bone or intermediate materials like denim.
-Some jurisdictions restrict the use of lead-projectiles
Solid copper projectiles have a lower cross-sectional density, so a bullet for a given caliber will be longer than if it were lead-core and equal in mass. This allows a shape that has more gradual curves and better ballistic coefficient without sacrificing velocity. It also allows for a projectile that deforms to a larger cross-sectional area when it impacts the target. Again, all without sacrificing velocity.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
I don't think anyone is questioning solid vs. jacketed projectiles.. the question is why use pure copper vs. an alloy that would be cheaper to source and easier to machine with no performance cost.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
But the intent seems to be to make frangible bullets, by a process that is not revealed nor apparent.
Last time I understood the subject, frangible bullets were made by a compaction process, not by subtractive machining. ... and ATF, etc., were trying hard to control the supply chain.
Once again, there are a few things I don't understand.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Splitting into four sub-projectiles, I don't get, not in the requested alloy.
The word 'split' suggests something like saw-cutting the bullet, which would be a LOT easier with something like 330 brass.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
...............because pure copper is hard to source in useable stock sizes, difficult to machine, and offers no performance benefit compared to other alloys which have neither of those problems.
It's also highly ductile and likely to foul rifling at a high rate.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
I am concerned that a solid 'pure copper' bullet would excessively deform/distort when fired thru a steel-rifled barrel under normal chamber pressures. Bullet distortion will lead to an unbalanced spin and de-stabilize the projectile. Distortion may be less of an issue, IF: this bullet will be fired thru a 'smooth-bore gun barrel', or if an obturator band is employed to spin-it-up while avoid raw bullet sliding-friction contact with barrel-rifling
Perhaps a hybrid bullet could be made using a bronze jacket swaged/brazed over a pure-solid copper core.... or a pure-sintered copper core. OR sinter/flame-spray a bronze alloy to the exterior of a pure copper bullet.... including the base.
I think Cu-Be alloy was used as a heat shield material in early ballistic missile tests... until other materials evolved into much lighter heat-shields for warheads.
Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
All of this being true without requiring the rifle be specifically chambered for this longer bullet? Unless there is sufficient room in the jacket to simply seat the bullet further without running out of room for the charge? Just a point of curiosity, I don't have anything to add.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
I'm tempted to think that is coincidence, as I've never heard one used in place of the other. One major distinction is that the obturator band is what spins up the projectile without the sliding friction of full surface contact of the projectile in the barrel. The obturator band is often referred to as the "rotating band" in military specifications.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
The case dimensions are important, as is the finished assembly overall length, so that the ammunition will feed properly. How deep the projectile is pressed into the case matters very little, as powders are power dense enough these days that the cartridges are never full.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
The effects of rifling on a copper bullet would be no different than the deformation on a normal bullet and would have little effect on stability.
jgKRI:
For handloaded rounds for targets I used to set the bullet so that it just engaged the rifling. The rounds were placed into the chamber and could not be fed through a magazine... much too long.
I used to have a 3.7" shell and the steel projectile had a copper band about 1/4" thick by 4" to deform and grip the rifling.
Although toxic, can you use mercury? When I was younger, I made up a bunch of mercury rounds and just incredible expansion... like you'd never believe.
Dik
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
Based on my research, the [current] specification for [military] Bullet Jacket cups is ASTM B131 Standard Specification for Copper Alloy Bullet Jacket Cups, which explicitly specifies copper alloy UNS C22000 as 'the standard' for military bullet jackets. I suspect that mot bullet makers conform with the intent of this spec +/-.
Any other copper alloys would require comparable ballistic, wear-testing, etc to ensure internal and external ballistics; and rifling wear-life in [typical] 4140 or 4150-ORD ~HT150 or equivalent 4xx CRES HT150 barrels... bare minimum.
Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
The Ballistics gel video's are amazing.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
My company web-browser won't let me get anywhere near the Your embedded link... acted like it was 'radioactive'.
Please extract/post a photo or info to the ENGINEERING.com 'attachment' link.
Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
How about a link to that square tipped bullet
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
If it still doesn't work, Google Extreme Defender and Extreme Cavitator.
RE: Copper Projectile - Raw Material
I think some days I spend more time trying to figure out how to use the tools at my disposal than actually using those tools.