Train Derailment
Train Derailment
(OP)
In Washington state, derailment killed 3 people and some still seriously injured. Part of the problem it seems is the design of the rail. From the BBC.
"A US passenger train that derailed, killing three people, was travelling at 80mph (130km/h) on a curve with a speed limit of 30mph, data from the train's rear engine indicates."
The rail was supposed to be a high speed rail and it seems really silly to have a 30mph curve on it.
link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42408624
Dik
"A US passenger train that derailed, killing three people, was travelling at 80mph (130km/h) on a curve with a speed limit of 30mph, data from the train's rear engine indicates."
The rail was supposed to be a high speed rail and it seems really silly to have a 30mph curve on it.
link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42408624
Dik





RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
Dik
RE: Train Derailment
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RE: Train Derailment
A few years, I sat through a presentation at a conference about a "high speed rail" line in the planning phase between Des Moines, IA and Chicago (with future expansion to Omaha, NE). It was to go at 80 mph where it could, but wherever it went through a community (town, village, city), it still had to slow down to 30mph (or slower) since the plan was to use the existing freight track. So, calling it "high speed" is more of a marketing/branding angle, and not completely representative of operation. Without knowing ANYTHING about this event, I would guess the high speed train is utilizing existing track, and the operator (engineer?) of the train missed that they had to slow down.
At any rate, "high speed rail line" doesn't necessarily mean 80mph all the time, at least, not if it's using existing track.
RE: Train Derailment
(ETA - I was responding to dik)
RE: Train Derailment
Also, the run may have been inaugural, but previous runs and testing had been made.
with no issues as far as has been reported.
The route has long been a controversial topic, being in the courts, too, over the years.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Train Derailment
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/washington-tr...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
80 mph is not high speed for rails... Europe has several lines that are several times faster than that. If marketing is the reason for calling it 'high speed' then marketing is partly to blame. This was the initial run, and, the engineer may not have been sufficiently trained.
Dik
RE: Train Derailment
As for the design that included the need to drop to 30 MPH, the alignment had to cross from running parallel to one side of the highway to running on the other side. Unless it crosses at a shallow skew elevated above the highway for extended length of track, it has to zig and zag to get across.
I like to blame marketing for a lot of things. But this is a stretch.
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
Two 30MPH speed limit signs, one 2 miles out, one close to the turn.
Train has been running that track for 6 weeks.
I believe an engineer is required to pass that track 8 times before passengers are allowed to travel with that engineer on that stretch of track.
Those engines have inward facing cameras that can be called up for realtime high res color video viewable at dispatch.
All new engines have cellphone detectors that alert dispatch of ANY cellphones that are ON in the cab and result in immediate response from dispatch.
The cars involved in the WA wreck are made in Spain and are very lightly built with two cars sharing three sets of axles. (That's why the wreck seemed to have lots of paired cars). They are built like motor coaches (buses) unlike normal heavy duty rail cars. They are not allowed in most states due to their not meeting federal guidelines. They are allowed in WA and 5 other states under special federal wavers.
They spent $180.7M to put that shortcut into service to save, (I believe), 15 minutes. Worth it?
The lead locomotive ended up more than 120 feet from the tracks.
All engineers are handed between one and about 8 sheets of paper showing all speed restrictions on the pending trip. There are often more than a dozen special speed restrictions on typical trips. Speed restrictions can be caused by things happening near tracks and weather.
The engines are extremely new and made by Siemens. They have had so many problems it's taken a year to actually start putting them into service. In some units the throttles work in reverse to the historic normal. (Can you imagine an airliner where the throttles work in reverse?) I have not been able to find out if these particular engine are the wacky reverse throttle types.
I believe there are seven complete trains for that particular run. Two are owned by the state of WA, two by Amtrak, and the last three I don't recall. The one that just went on the ground was owned by WA.
PTC Positive train control implementation has so far directly cost the rail companies approximately one billion dollars. It's been very hard to implement. (Note the changing pages of speed limits noted above.)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Train Derailment
The P42 that was pushing was most definitely not built by Siemens, it's a GE product. I'm assuming you're referring to the cab car.
RE: Train Derailment
Looks like the series 6 tilting carriages used on this line, but the series 8 for the rest of the US system.
it will be interesting to see how many times the driver ACTUALLY ran the line in that direction. One warning sign 2 miles out doesn't sound enough to me, but I'm not a train driver or designer. Maybe a little more graduation in speed limits required.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Train Derailment
I can see the hesitation about PTC. One looks at the fleet cost of implementation along with the track indicators for short-range communications and then factor in that it's a system that overrides the engineer and compare the current rates of failure of engineers while also considering that there will be new failure modes. I'm not certain that PTC is an overall best solution to the problem of engineer's operating problems.
One solution that I would have pushed for is a GPS/Cellular comms based location system that alerted the engineer, much like terrain and collision avoidance systems in aircraft typically do. This could have been deployed cheaply and without the headache of adding additional failure modes to train control. However, doing this as an interim solution would certainly have ended the push to full autonomous taking of control. The big advantage to an alerting system is that multiple systems could be deployed on a single train, allowing the conductors to intervene if required. The disadvantage is that there is no good autonomous way to detect which of any parallel tracks a train is on, so mis-tracked trains could still be a problem.
RE: Train Derailment
"Having regard, therefore, to all the circumstances of this serious accident and to the criticism, to which my attention was particularly drawn, that both drivers concerned, though running approximately on time, may have been exceeding a speed reasonably justified by visibility conditions, I recommend that the Company should take early steps to reach decisions, with a view to applying Warning Control to high speed services on their Trunk Routes."
(Extract from Report by Lt.-Colonel A. H. L. Mount, C.B., C.B.E. on the Collision between two Passenger Trains which occurred on 10th December, 1937, at CASTLECARY on the London and North Eastern Railway, HMSO, 1938).
So why does this issue keep coming up without ever really getting implemented very enthusiastically or thoroughly? On the one hand, the systems are expensive and the proportion of rail accidents they might have any influence on is genuinely low. On the other hand, the accidents they do prevent tend to be the catastrophic ones that grab world headlines.
A.
RE: Train Derailment
The re-route also put the train across a lot more level crossings, increasing pedestrian/auto risks. And, for passengers, takes you down the "scenic
RE: Train Derailment
SkyTrain
Mass transportation system
SkyTrain is the metropolitan rail system of Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. SkyTrain has 79.6 km of track and uses fully automated trains on grade-separated tracks running on underground ... Wikipedia
Average speed: 45 km/h
Began operation: December 11, 1985
Daily ridership: 454,600 (December 2016)
Annual ridership: 137.4 million (2016)
Top speed: 80 km/h (50 mph) (Expo and Millennium Lines); 80 km/h (50 mph) (Canada Line)
Did you know: SkyTrain is the ninth-busiest North American rapid transit system by annual ridership (137,380,000)
Much of the system uses Linear Induction Motors with regeneration.
As the trains pull into the stations, it is easy to hear when the LIM regeneration cuts off and the mechanical brakes apply.
The distance to stop from the point that regeneration ends: About 3 to 5 feet.
Full automation is available for anyone who wants to use it.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
As always, it's merely a matter of time and money.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Train Derailment
It looks like Sky Train also pulls about $0.5 Billion from outside taxes to support it on top of fares and advertising sales. This means they cost Canada about $5 per rider. That might be a good deal, but it's not a universal solution. And it's not entirely without fatalities.
https://www.straight.com/life/458271/skytrain-deat...
And yes, many, but not all Skytrain deaths are probably suicide, but they still look at the money before deciding on measures to mitigate it.
RE: Train Derailment
http://www.newsweek.com/antifa-falsely-linked-amtr...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
The number click-throughs that Newsweek will get from the link on a high traffic website like Eng-Tips will only serve to validate that muck-raking. Your ridicule is not a factor in their web stats or their advertising revenue.
STF
RE: Train Derailment
A bit more context: On the old path Amtrak shared the rails with freight trains, so there were often highly unpredictable delays. Being on time 7 out of 8 times and two hours late the 8th averages out to 15 minutes of delay. When I was regularly commuting along this route, the train's reputation of highly variable arrival times discouraged me from going by train.
RE: Train Derailment
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
What is it I'm missing about Newsweek's reporting that was supposed to make it so awful? It's not as if John linked to the actual conspiracy drivel.
RE: Train Derailment
ditto... I recently took the Via-Rail Canadian from Toronto across Canada to Vancouver. From what I saw and experienced, the amount of east bound rail freight originating from Vancouver and I would imagine the northwestern ports in general, being the closest to the Asian Pacific, is staggering, with significant delays to passenger rail.
Passenger rail traffic is last in priority on shared freight rails, due to track ownership, ecomonics, and that the freight trains are far too long in length to fit on just about all sidings. After getting into Vancouver proper, it was a 2 1/2 hour delay to get past the freight assembly yards (and east bound freight) to the passenger station just a few miles ahead.
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On average, the number of east-bound and west-bound freight rail cars should be very nearly identical. Otherwise the rail cars would tend to pile up at one end.
You would have passed more east-bound traffic since you were heading west.
RE: Train Derailment
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/05/u.s.disney.monora...
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Train Derailment
The percentage may have slipped somewhat, but it still carries a lot of tonnage and a lot of it is bound for eastern markets.
And as far as west bound traffic, there is a lot of grain heading west.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
Dik
RE: Train Derailment
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/20790BB4-7A4E...
"Upgrades tracks and improves existing connection to BNSF Railway main line so trains can travel up to 40 mph from Nisqually to Mounts Road and 79 mph from Mounts Road to Bridgeport Way."
The locomotive engineer announced an over-speed condition approximately 6 seconds (or 650 feet) before the crash.
The locomotive engineer should engage legal counsel as he will probably face manslaughter charges.
RE: Train Derailment
ALL these "officials" are so very willing to mention "not installing the speed regulators" .... Odd attitude.
RE: Train Derailment
Inbound freight trains would have to wait for clearance to enter the freight yards.
There was a limit to the amount of time a train could sit stationery blocking a level crossing. If the time was exceeded, the train crew was supposed to break the train and clear the crossing.
Rather than break the train, the train would proceed at about 2 MPH and block the crossings for a very long time.
Now the track through Burnaby alongside the Highway is built on very soft ground. You could see the rails subside as each loaded truck passed by.
Came the day that the grain cars of a slow moving freight train started to rock and a harmonic frequency must have been found. The rocking progressed until a large number of grain cars were laying on the ground beside the tracks.
After that, the scheduling was revised so that trains could waste time further away from the city without inconveniencing commuters.
Too slow may also be a problem.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
Remind yourself who was at fault during the many Toyota "stuck accelerator" accidents a decade ago.
The company paid the fine. All the people who explained why the car probably wasn't at fault were ignored.
Anybody demonstrating how the subject vehicle engines couldn't overpower the brakes were called company shils, and ignored.
I'm wondering if this is going to be a similar case. My local media has already imagined a link between this derailment and a local city transit train accident in Calgary.
Nobody was hurt, but a locomotive had to be scrapped. It left the tracks, clearly due to operator error, any yet still the city transit system had to install magnetic brakes to stop trains overrunning the end of the tracks.
STF
RE: Train Derailment
The fines were mostly for not reporting incidents to the feds. It's tougher to manage safety if the maker is hiding safety related information.
The crash and burn Toyota had another driver report the same problem days before to the dealership. He also was unable to stop the car with the brakes while in gear. I have no idea how a cop would not know to use neutral, but that should not be required by having a car configured to create the problem. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-report-lo...
It's also the case that drivers will tend not to initially put full force effort into the brakes at the outset, so the brakes rapidly heat, glaze, and fade, unlike the behavior of those 'proving' some contention about how the brakes, under different usage, could work. Flight-sim pilots were often able to successfully pilot a plane under the circumstances that brought a DC-10 down in Chicago, but only after they were fully informed as to the exact defect and given a chance to plan a response, time and information the original crew did not have.
RE: Train Derailment
Were we seeing a Darwin Award competition?
Talking about Flight-sim attempts. I understand that Boeing set up a simulation of the Gimli Glider in their flight simulator and the first three attempts by Boeing test pilots ended in simulated crashes.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
(edit to clarify)
RE: Train Derailment
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
One problem was the formation of tin whiskers in one pedal sensor which caused the throttle response to be non-linear - from the idle position to part throttle the ECU didn't see a resistance change and when the whisker lost contact it looked to the ECU like a sudden throttle input; not WOT, just dead-band and then a bit of voom, which startled drivers. Depending on how the whisker was positioned the symptoms would be irregular and testing with a typical ohm-meter could be enough to damage the whisker such that the pedal tests OK only for the symptoms to return.
There was also a pedal design issue. In an 'old-fashioned' car there is some sticktion due to the throttle linkage and cable so that a driver's foot could vary pressure slightly without moving the pedal. In drive-by-wire, there is just a pedal return spring and slight variations in pressure result in variations in throttle which results in slight surge/sag of power. So they added a friction source to produce sticktion and, in some cases, this meant that the return spring didn't have enough force to ensure the pedal returned all the way to idle when released.
When the accident happened it resulted in every leaf being turned over to explain why the family was incinerated so it came to light that some of this had not been divulged.
The 'trapped' pedal concept was advanced by Toyota both because that's what really caused the crash, the wrong floor mat was identified early on as a most-probable cause and, I think, to provide a simple to implement fix. It was also a dodge as there would have been hundreds of videos of pedals trapped by floor mats on YouTube. As far as I can tell, there was only one video, where a guy wadded a floor mat and shoved it between the foot well wall and the pedal.
The other source of trouble for Toyota was the lack of an obvious fault in the ECU that would explain the non-existent ECU related problems, leading to investigations into the software development practices at Toyota. These investigations lacked any demonstrations of realistic failure modes. I suspect it's true the ECU software wasn't made with significant fault tolerance in mind, but no one demonstrated any actual faults to be tolerant of. This led to the grand-standing of an expert and further unsubstantiated guesses increasing the speculation that there was something to hide. And let's not forget the driver who falsely claimed an out-of-control condition that seemed to be an extortion attempt that also implicated every Toyota, even those with entirely different ECUs.
In contrast is the VW ECU/Diesel lie, where independent software and hardware investigators were able to identify the place in the software and verify by bench test and testing in the vehicle that they had been programmed to cheat the federal emissions testing. Anyone could duplicate the observations/reproduce the results - they could look at the inputs and the state of the outputs.
In spite of the obvious value in confirming such a flaw in the Toyota ECUs I don't recall seeing anyone demonstrate a clear runaway causing condition.
Out of it all, one feature that eventually did make it into the software was a check to give priority to the brake input such that some amount of brake application would cause the ECU to ignore the throttle input and set the engine back to idle. This is a handy change to make, but I doubt that it makes much difference except in the case that the pedal is physically restrained, which doesn't seem to happen often, and maybe only ever happened on the one car. (Though articles claim there was a prior problem with all-weather mats, it seems so unlikely to be true; all the cell phones and no one put up a video showing their runaway death-traps)
The majority cause of unexpected acceleration is the same as always - pressing on the accelerator when intending to press the brake and then being startled by the sudden motion and pressing harder on the 'brake,' which just makes the control loop worse. Some (most?) of this has been dealt with by interlocking the shift out of Park with application of the brake, so that the car can't move from Park without the driver pressing the brake.
One thing that seems ignored is that the pedal problem is a side effect of cost reduction. Originally most accelerator pedals were hinged at the floor, which was advantageous to the placement of the pull-cable housing mount in the firewall. With the hinge at the bottom the worst a floor mat could do is run up the pedal and provide slight pressure with little moment arm. It required some time to install the pedal in that location.
The 'electronic' pedal meant that it could be integrated into the dash assembly and fit before installing the dash into the car as one unit. This exposes the end of the pedal to bypass the edge of the floor mat. If the user is able to push the pedal into the carpeting, an oversized mat edge can ride up and prevent its return, applying its load at the point of maximum leverage. An all-weather mat makes this worse by being significantly stiffer than the carpet mat and might as well be a wedge.
I expect one reason few people noticed this, aside from not having the wrong mats, is that it requires a very high level of pedal force. In the accident vehicle there was a report that the car seemed to have trouble keeping speed and then suddenly shot forward in traffic. If the mat was blocking the pedal travel, preventing ordinary application, and the driver got frustrated and stamped as hard as he could to overcome the obstruction, it would fit the observation. Why the driver just didn't put the transmission in neutral is a question - maybe he did and the sound frightened him, believing the engine would explode. (Hint everyone - Let the engine manage itself, especially if it's a loaner.)
RE: Train Derailment
Whilst this is off the subject of the train de-railment I would point out that the guy killed in Santee was not "Just a cop", he was a California Highway patrol officer , these guys/gals get extensive car handling training including skidpan work. I also used to commute to work on that road. At the time of the accident , the road was unfinished with a Tee junction at the end of a high speed downgrade into a road work area The area across the other side of the tee was a river valley with large boulders in it. I am sure given his training, if there was a way of stopping the car that he knew about ,he would have done so. Anyway this is off the subject of train de-railments.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Train Derailment
I believe that particular model of Toyota would not go into neutral above a certain RPM threshold.
And regarding the testing that showed that brakes could overcome an engine, it was only if they were firmly and constantly applied without releasing them. In the case of sudden acceleration on the highway, cockpit resource management becomes a lot more challenging. Your first instinct is not to stand on the brakes. It’s to try to get the car below 80 MPH while you troubleshoot. So you ride the brake a bit maybe. Try not to hit the cars in front of you. Release the brake to clear the accelerator with your foot. Reapply. Ride it some more. Try to turn it off. Etc.
At that point the brakes have soaked up so much heat it’s game over. Especially in “family cars” pushing 300 HP but without the brakes to match (have to keep that weight down for MPG). That was what happened to that patrol officer. No doubt.
RE: Train Derailment
The fact that the Officer Saylor did't succeed using that let the start that some huge programming problem prevented it from happening and therefore starting rumors that there had to be a coverup.
Bershire - A different driver of the exact same car had the exact same problem and brought the car to safe halt. Training cannot make up for panic and I doubt that any skidpad training included WOT latching on. I expect the additional burden of having his immediate family in the car also added to the cognitive load, causing him to exclude more survivable alternatives to heading off an embankment, such as grinding along a guard rail or sliding into a ditch.
The question for the train derailment is that certain systems can offset operator error and without looking at how operators get into good or terrible situations, allows for future problems. This train was run with a single engineer so any mistake made had no co-pilot to alert him or take action. This driver wasn't able to observe what made previous runs on the refreshed line successful, such as noting the positions and indications on speed control signs.
Had the conductor been given a device that plotted the location, speed limit, and current speed and sounded an alarm for over-speed, the conductor could have accessed the emergency brake or radioed the engineer and stopped the train on the way to the curve.
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that the railroad enthusiasts weren't aware of the impending situation; it's a new route and they would certainly be interested as to exactly where they were and could know what the track speeds should be. Perhaps they had too much confidence in the system to recognize the danger.
I expect the immediate cause is the engineer was explaining something to the conductor-trainee and they just failed to notice what was happening outside the cab due to the distraction. I would not be surprised if it was the engineer's first run on the route.
RE: Train Derailment
Some interesting parallels with a recent tram crash in the UK.
A.
RE: Train Derailment
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
Take a look at this shift gate and tell me where neutral is. Now imagine trying to figure that out at 110 MPH in traffic with everyone in the car freaking out.
Another thing to consider with regards to braking, is that at wide open throttle you only get a few pumps on the pedal before the boost is gone and you're left with manual braking. Though it was clearly documented in this lexus that the brakes were thoroughly cooked. Sad story all around. Especially considering that the officer was made out by some to be at fault due to his perceived incompetence.
I guess the moral of the story, perhaps as we may even find in this train wreck, is that all of this complexity we are building into things (push button start, trick automatic transmissions, POWER!) is causing CRM issues.
RE: Train Derailment
But.
If you "turn off" the wrong knob, the engine does NOT turn off but the transmission IS locked into its last (drive or reverse) position. If you turn "off" the transmission selection, it changed to the Reverse position, and - again - the engine does NOT turn off. The Key fob is a remote control sensor - The Key does NOT have to be pulled from the key slot at any time. So, getting out of the car seat (with the key now in your pocket) means nothing: The engine is still running, and the transmissio is still in "Drive". The radio is Off though.
RE: Train Derailment
Very few vehicles use a rotary switch for a keyless-ignition system and the few that I know of that do, have that switch in the same place as where a normal rotary key switch would be (which IMO is the right way to do it). Very few vehicles also use a rotary switch for transmission selection (certain late model Chryslers and Jaguars are the only ones I can think of) and the ones that do, don't also use a rotary switch for keyless-ignition, nevermind having such a switch similarly arranged as the ignition switch ... and they're not shaped similarly to the HVAC controls. So, you must be referring to a specific make, model, year that I haven't seen. What is it?
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
Even an Arduino coupled with a GPS and a detailed track program could have prevented such an accident by warning the operator that the speed was excessive for that portion of the track, as well as the previous portion, since the operator probably needed to have slowed down well in advance of the slow section.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train Derailment
Is this reasonable or an I blowing smoke?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
GPS is not infallible, but it knows when it's not getting a signal, and a good many places where it won't have a signal (e.g. tunnels) are predictable in advance, which means you can do something about it.
Even without a GPS signal, the path of a train is governed by the tracks that it's running on, which is known, and the distance that it has covered along those tracks can be established by wheel sensors on non-driving wheels to eliminate the possibility of wheelspin. That ought to provide enough coverage for the periods where it doesn't have a GPS signal or where the signal is ambiguous.
For that matter, the distance-since-trip-start (or since a known "reset" location - a station, a track switch) could be the primary control with GPS only used to refine the position accuracy. "31.7 km into this trip, reset maximum speed to 70 km/h, then 33.2 km into this trip, reset maximum speed to 120 km/h, then 55.4 km into this trip, download next instruction set depending on which position the track switch sends the train down", that sort of thing.
I'm sure someone can toss enough FMEA darts at this to find theoretical holes that this strategy doesn't cover, but compare it to what the current system provides ... nothing.
RE: Train Derailment
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Train Derailment
What an amazing feat of piloting. Other than running out of fuel in the first place :)
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Train Derailment
Existing route planners from other industries can already autonomously program flight paths and speeds for UAVs well enough to avoid enemy radars; adapting them to plan a train route shouldn't be that complicated.
The biggest issue, of course, is a fundamental lack of desire. The rail companies neither want to spend the money or even to do the job in the first place. That's the only rational explanation for an already 3-yr slip in implementation of positive train control. Any time safety equipment is demanded by the public or the government, companies resist, until they're back up against a wall. Then, the implementation is PDQ, and the companies laud all their safety features, after the fact.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train Derailment
In the cockpit were two pilots who had the combined experience and skill set to land successfully.
One pilot had glider experience and the other had first hand experience flying out of the Gimli airport.
What are the odds that those two pilots would be in the cockpit on that flight?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Train Derailment
Some years ago the two pilots who did this were guest speakers at a Soaring Society of America convention , It was a very interesting story they told among other things they mentioned , The aircraft's fuel gauges were inoperative because of an electronic fault indicated on the instrument panel and airplane logs. They relied only on the quantity put on board which of course was done in pounds instead of kilos so they thought they were getting more fuel than they really did.
But again there was a comedy of errors prior to their taking off which later resulted in the two pilots and three maintenance workers getting suspended.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Train Derailment
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
Ronald Batory — President Trump’s nominee to lead the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) — will be pushing for the controversial self-regulatory approach to safety known as “performance-based regulations,” according to his July 26 statement for the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation.
https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/09/27/federal-rail...
The engineers at VW took advantage of the performance-based regulations when they installed modifications to get around the diesel emissions regulations.
RE: Train Derailment
Are you sure it's not something more human, such as the threat to job security, or the reduction of the driver's responsibility to the point of uselessness?
When comparing rail safety records, one should ask: What do they do in Japan?
North America's rail system is pretty sad compared to the Shinkansen.
"In 2011, 27 shinkansen trains were skimming the country the afternoon of March 11 when a 9.0 megaquake struck... There were no fatalities or injuries."
There is no way a human could make the split-second decisions needed to minutely control a 300 KPH train all day every day. Automation of rail transport has already been solved. A 130kph train is trivial in comparison.
STF
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
Since when has that really stopped any company from executing a corporate desire? It certainly didn't stop the fireman and conductor from disappearing. It certainly hasn't stopped the airlines from reducing cockpit crews from 4 to 2. And when have the unions successfully won anything in the last 20 years? Does anyone really believe that the unions can buy more politicians than the railroads?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train Derailment
Anyway - the 2015 article has some 2017 followup https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2017/12/has-... It's not dead, but it's not a source of pride to a lot of Texans.
RE: Train Derailment
As others point out, this is all about cost. The technology has been around a long time. There is nothing to "invent", only the implementation. The standards have been all hashed out and every manufacturer of equipment has solutions available.
The New York underground system had positive train control when built in 1904. It was centrally dispatched, with remote controlled switches and automatic signals. A mechanical trip rising from besides the track indicated clear, restricted or stop. Passing restricted too fast or passing stop would apply the air brake to emergency.
The London Underground started automated train control in 1964. It uses wayside coils to indicate target speed by a number of different frequencies. The operator only controls the doors and issues a "go" command and after that the central control system sets speed and onboard controls regulate the speed including the final stop in place.
As you point out, there are plenty of examples of automated systems. They still have an operator though. Automated systems don't do well with unexpected disruptions like objects on the tracks, people blocking doors, etc..
Rail equipment isn't a since fair project. I know for certain you've never designed anything that goes onboard rail equipment if you think COTS will work without a bunch of modifications. Rail is BRUTAL for vibration and impact.
That said, the real cost isn't in the moving equipment, it is in the wayside equipment, communications and software. Far more often the problem isn't a train going too fast for the location, it is unauthorized movement - going against switches and / or running into another train. For that you've got to communicate who's got authority, where everyone is, etc..
All of the technology is developed and agreed upon in the US. It is a matter of spending the money to put it in.
RE: Train Derailment
I can VPN into the router and ask it for it's immediate GPS location. If I copy that location and paste it into Google Maps then switch to satellite mode and zoom in, with out exception, I can always tell which way the car is pointing just by that two foot offset of the antenna. I was quite amazed when I realized that.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Train Derailment
Please be careful when quoting others. It makes for confusing reading for everyone else, when you don't cut-and-paste correctly.
Now that that's been taken care of, I want to add that I understand IRStuff when IRStuff wrote the following:
I believe IRStuff was NOT making an engineering design recommendation about how to automate a rail system. My reading of IRStuff's comment was more to place some ridicule on an industry that has fallen woefully behind in providing its operators with electronic assistance, when every other transport system has done similar things for their operators. You clearly understand the mechanism of doing this in the rail system better than I do, and perhaps better than IRStuff (I won't speak for them) but didn't notice the implied scorn, for not an industry that has not widely implemented it decades ago, when it became possible.
STF
RE: Train Derailment
When such a system is incorporated into new engines, the cost would be less than half, and no one would even blink an eye if the cost of a new engine were $20k higher, since that would simply get amortized over the freight costs over the lifetime of the engine. Engine additions are much easier to justify, compared to trading between bullets and safety equipment in military. That's been an ongoing losing proposition for at least 20 years. Military helos are routinely lost due to self-induced brownouts caused by the downwash; the technology exists to deal with that, but the aggregate cost constantly makes such systems fall below the budget line.
While rail transport environment is harsh, it's nowhere close to impossible, and nowhere close to military truck transport or naval 901D shock. Anything that a human bottom can handle for 8 hrs is benign, by definition. And note that I was describing a simple warning system, which isn't even close to positive control, and does not require interaction with any other part of the engine, other than power and external antenna.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train Derailment
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
They are locally controlled via radio from a console worn in a harness. They are mainly used to allow for one man operation in switching service. Most of the time the operator will be in the cab, but when it comes time to back up, make a couple, throw a switch and set it back, etc... the operator will dismount and run the train from the ground. They are always operating with the end of the train in the direction of movement visible.
RE: Train Derailment
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Train Derailment
http://thehill.com/opinion/technology/366833-the-m...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
The train is a Talgo manufactured train which has been is service for many years by Amtrak. They are rather odd looking, with an engine on both ends, higher than the cars in between. The passenger cars share wheel trucks, single axle between cars.
A train on the alternate, older route alongside Puget Sound suffered a derailment last July. There is a lift bridge on that route and the train failed to stop for a bridge opening. There is an old (1920's or older) vertical lift bridge over Steilacoom creek on the Western track which I suspect was involved (news website didn't say).
The old Western route follows the shore of Puget Sound and enters a long tunnel with a quite tight turn on the West side of Tacoma, under Point Defiance Park. It is a picturesque route, but subject to mud slides from the high bluffs along the Sound.
A lot of construction has been going on over the last couple of years on the new route. The tracks were regraded and reinstalled with new concrete ties. I believe the commuter "Sounder" trains will be sharing this track, but only as far as South Tacoma in the near future - maybe about 5 miles North of the accident site.
The bridge where it happened is the span over Interstate 5 South bound lanes. The East pier used to be a favorite site for the WA State Patrol to hide out and catch speeders on the downgrade. Haven't seen them there lately?
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
The engineer is in a union, and will be represented at no cost of his own.
Train derailments are under the jurisdiction of the NTSB, and get treated in a very similar way as commercial plane accidents... So I'd bet the NTSB/Union reps/Lawyers were on board within about 10 minutes of the accident.
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."
RE: Train Derailment
No.
Around here, it takes three fatalities to get a stoplight.
Local rules will vary, and will not be recorded in a place where just any citizen has access.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Train Derailment
Not necessarily. The locomotive engineer would have to be in the union and the union contract would have to include liability coverage, both of which are unknown
Here is an example:
http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/6609767-74/trai...
RE: Train Derailment
Perhaps a better terminology would be "Tombstone Engineering".
RE: Train Derailment
The downside to that is far to often, the wrong thing is done after a death. It's a natural reaction to "we must do something" after someone is killed. Particularly when the dead person is politically connected, or related to someone politically corrected.
A good example is when a pedestrian is killed by someone turning right on a red. We're not going to ban right turns on red, so they will ban it at only that one intersection, even if there is nothing there that makes that one intersection particularly dangerous.
RE: Train Derailment
Amtrak's engineers are fully unionized. I expect them to circle the wagons for this guy, whether he deserves their protection or not.
RE: Train Derailment
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train Derailment
That's kinda the point of a union.
RE: Train Derailment
Is the following from a similar incident an example of "circle the wagons"?
"The executive director of the Rail Employees Union now says 46-year-old engineer William Rockefeller, who was injured in crash, has said he caught himself "nodding off" at the controls."
http://www.texomashomepage.com/news/national-news/...
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/03/us/new-york-train-cr...
To surmise that a union will obstruct an investigation seems to be somewhat cynical.
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Train Derailment
RE: Train Derailment
"UPS, union ousted from inquiry into crash of one of carrier service’s cargo planes"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcom...
All take a vow of silence until the NTSB delivers its final report on the accident. So secret is the process that for some portions of the inquest the partners gather in a secure section of the NTSB building that is equipped with a unique computer system that allows no communication outside the room. Partners at those sessions take notes on color-coded paper that is collected before they leave the room.