Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
(OP)
Dear All,
Could you pls advice whether the valves ordered are going to get supplied at site with open or in close position?
Question is applicable for any kind of routine piping valve i.e. Gate/Ball/Globe etc. but at the moment it is more specific for Ball valve (lever).
Pls let me know.
Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit
Could you pls advice whether the valves ordered are going to get supplied at site with open or in close position?
Question is applicable for any kind of routine piping valve i.e. Gate/Ball/Globe etc. but at the moment it is more specific for Ball valve (lever).
Pls let me know.
Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit





RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
Wow!
I never gave that much thought. But now you have started my mind racing around thinking of many possibilities for bad results one way or the other.
It will be interesting to see what input you get.
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
Thank you bimr for your inputs & stating that it is the motto of the supplier / received to have the container as small as possible however MFJewell & bcd is having a valid concern of valve getting damaged due to debris so are sent in closed position most of the times (except ball valve in open for the same reason).
You made my day.
Currently I am checking few isos & on all the isos ball valves are shown in closed position on the iso. Wanted to know why it is so. Hence asked the question.
Iso point of view if you have any thoughts pls share.
Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
Just my 2c
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
You wrote:
"Currently I am checking few isos & on all the isos ball valves are shown in closed position on the iso. Wanted to know why it is so. Hence asked the question."
My answer to your question is as follows. It is not the function of a Piping Isometric to indicate a Valve 'Open or Closed' position. The Isometric will indicated the existence of a Valve and the type of valve for material Take-off purposes only.
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
Thanks,
Ehzin
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
In general, while checking isos I am careful or concerned for the actuator or handwheel orientation on the isometric for valves.
Because if it is given to site do decide to orient valves the way they want to....we will have troubles as mentioned by Ehzin above.
Let's discuss further as I see different opinions on this criteria.
Pls note, I have standard iso checklist which also has this point to check.
Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
If P&ID shows a valve closed, that valve has to be shown closed in isometric.
Valves have to be shown open/closed in isometrics as shown in P&IDs because they will be erected as shown in isometrics.
Valves that have to be normally closed/open during operation will be represented in P&IDs accordingly. Hence, they have to erected accordingly. Hence, they have to be shown in isometrics accordingly.
Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like an armor and it can never hurt you.
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
You wrote:
"If P&ID shows a valve closed, that valve has to be shown closed in isometric."
Okay, on the one hand let's think of all the different types of Valves (Gate, Globe, Ball, Plug, Butterfly, Diaphram, Pinch, etc).
On the other hand, we should all be aware that normally NOT ALL valves on a P&ID have the Open/Closed position indicated. Now let's consider the different Standard ways that an "Open or Closed" Valve is indicated on a P&ID (NO=Normally Open, NC=Normally Closed, CSO= Car Seal Open, CSC= Car Seal Closed).
With some thought I believe You will all agree the most simple way to indicate a Valve on an Isometric is to use the generic Valve (Type) Symbol and then only if indicated on the P&ID then include the Simple Open or Closed indication (as shown above).
We should also recognize that an Isometric is not normally used as the primary "Tool" for Plant Start-Up.
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
I completely agree.
If a P&ID specifically shows a valve open or closed, the valve has to be shown in the isometric accordingly.
I also agree that not all valves in a P&ID have the open/close position indicated.
Also, yes, an isometric is not normally used as the primary tool for start up.
Thanks for the response.
Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like an armor and it can never hurt you.
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
You wrote:
"If a P&ID specifically shows a valve open or closed, the valve has to be shown in the isometric accordingly."
If this is a true statement then Isogen (or some other Isometric software) must already have symbols for ALL the different Valve types in both the open and closed position.
Please show us the existing Open & Closed Isogen symbols for the following:
- Gate Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Globe Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Butterfly Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Plug Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Ball Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Diaphram Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Pinch Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Needle Valve - Open= -- Closed=
Plus any others you may have.
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
You wrote,
Now let's consider the different Standard ways that an "Open or Closed" Valve is indicated on a P&ID (NO=Normally Open, NC=Normally Closed, CSO= Car Seal Open, CSC= Car Seal Closed).
only if indicated on the P&ID then include the Simple Open or Closed indication (as shown above).
In response to this, I wrote,
If a P&ID specifically shows a valve open or closed, the valve has to be shown in the isometric accordingly.
It means, if P&ID mentions NO or NC or CSO or CSC or LO or LC, the same has to be mentioned in isometric.
Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like an armor and it can never hurt you.
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
Thanks for making this one interesting so far...
Pls consider from a Layout Engineer's perspective wherein I want to manage the available space with me wherein sometimes it is very tight (every foot counts scenario in revamp jobs).
Always, I want to manage my space considering worst case scenario i.e. what consumes more space either the valve in open or in close position? For me I design it for whatever takes more space.
Also, yes, an isometric is not normally used as the primary tool for start up hence should not be a problem with the above approach.
Any concerns pls let's discuss.
Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
cjabhijit,
You should really rethink this statement:
Pls consider from a Layout Engineer's perspective wherein I want to manage the available space with me wherein sometimes it is very tight (every foot counts scenario in revamp jobs).
Always, I want to manage my space considering worst case scenario i.e. what consumes more space either the valve in open or in close position? For me I design it for whatever takes more space.
You must consider both the "open" and "closed" position for every Valve because many times in every Valve's life it will experience both positions.
Enough said on this subject I think!
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position?
I think I would have re-framed my sentences in better way.... I should have said considering worst case in both scenarios however, should be possible for both open / close positions (not only the worst in terms of space required for the concerned valve).
Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit