×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
Hello guys! I am really really glad to find this forum as I can see it represents a strong engineering community on the internet. I don't want to get you tired with many things so I am about to tell you my story in the short run, and I would kindly like your opinions regarding my issue.

I am a BSc(hons) Engineering Geologist specialized in Geotechnical Engineering and I have 4yrs of work experience as a consultant mainly in foundation engineering as well as in natural hazards (landslides, slope stability etc),and very few experience in tunneling. In addition,in a couple of years from now I am about to graduate from the National Technical University of Athens as a M.Eng Mining & Metallurgical Engineer (5yrs academic degree = BSc & integrated MSc) with specialization in Geoengineering & Metallurgy.

As most of you are aware (I think?), the situation in Greece has become unbearable,with zero prospects for engineers (basically for everyone!). For this reason, I decided to leave Greece,search for a job,and settle,abroad. Since two of my top choices are Canada and USA, I would like to ask you a couple of questions regarding engineering and engineering market there.
1) What's the possibility of getting geology or an engineering job before immigrating there, and without having to attend a MSc at a Canadian or US university in order to be seen more favorable from a possible employer?
2) How is the market in Canada or USA regarding geotechnical engineering,mining engineering, or geology? Good - bad prospects?
3) If I take the PE examinations and obtain the PE, does this change the way employers consider my resume and application, instead of just apply for a job without having this?

Thank you very much in advance for your opinions and for the kindness to reply to my post. Wish you all a wonderful day!

George

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2061/la_id/1....

A link from the Professional Engineers Ontario website which will give you a taste for what is involved.

You can and SHOULD apply before you immigrate. Getting a license requires at least 1 year of experience mentored by someone licensed in Canada, and getting that year can be a challenge. And a license is no guarantee of a job, nor is it an absolute necessity to get a job (or else nobody would ever get that year of experience...)

Be aware that in Canada, only 30% of engineering graduates work as engineers:

https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/advocacy/2...

Any engineer immigrating to Canada without a job in hand before they land is taking the risk that they will never work as an engineer again. Mind you, thousands of immigrants do manage to immigrate and get engineering jobs here every year, but thousands more do not.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Not in the mining field. However, in a discussion with one recruiter, he mentioned that he needed mining engineers in New Mexico, and he couldn't get any of the mining engineers in Upper Michigan to go (because the U.P. is just that awesome!).

If you need experience, there's probably lots of work to be had in any number of far-flung, third-world mines. Just be sure to have a return ticket in hand.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
moltenmetal: I understand. That being said, there's no need to even bother searching for a job in Canada, under these conditions.

TheTick: My friend,I want to stabilize my life on a better quality level,not to lose it completely in a third world mine!Thing is,I know nothing about N. Mexico,however,from what you mentioned above about the mining engineers,I'd rather maintain this lack of knowledge!

Basically,I mostly would like to know whether employment opportunities are approximately equal for foreign and native engineers when it comes to an employer, and if it is possible to apply for a job through the internet without the discrimination due to visa sponsorship etc, or employers don't even look at foreign applications and I need to obtain a MSc in order to successfully enter the market?

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I have a co-worker who immigrated from Greece 2 years ago to Canada. He was a structural engineer in Greece and now is only minor steps away from obtaining his P.Eng designation here. His previous experience in Greece provided him adequate base knowledge to allow him to work here. I would not write off the possibility of jobs in Canada without looking at the job opportunities. Your current experience would make you highly valuable to a geotechnical engineering firm.

Do some research into firms in Canada and the US that are along the lines of the work you want to do. Then contact people at the firms that interest you and see where it goes. It may be beneficial for you to look for a job where your experience is applicable in order to get your foot in the door. Once you've gained local experience it would likely open more doors for you to migrate into a different position if desired.

Based on my understanding of the situation in Greece, any engineering related job here is better than staying in Greece. Even if it isn't your dream job.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

geov86, my perspective from the outside looking in is that many employers in the US are still not hard pressed to find adequate native/local candidates, and as such they'll either disregard or heavily discount applications from persons who don't already live in that state, let alone international candidates.

It's not impossible, but you'll need to prove (more thoroughly than normal) that you are the ideal candidate for that specific job (without setting off the "overqualified" triggers).

----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

You've got to understand that many people coming to Canada are coming for family reasons first and career/opportunity reasons 2nd. Many think Canada is a land of limitless opportunity and don't mind taking the chance of never working in their chosen field again because they don't feel that's a likely outcome.

You'd be competing for jobs with a lot of those folks if you did choose to come.

Come if you can, or choose not to- just do it with your eyes fully open, aware of just how hard it might be for you, not on the basis of hope alone.

As to the US, the job opportunities may be better, but some of the other conditions aren't so great. A colleague of mine immigrated to Canada from India, but failed to find suitable work and left for the US. He worked in the US for quite a while, but came back to Canada because it was possible here to at least have a hope of bringing in his parents. His parents are living with him now, so it worked out.



RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Make sure you pledge your allegiance to Allah on your USA visa application.

On a serious note, I think you will be hard pressed to find work in the US. CEs are abundant in the US, so it keeps pay lower than other disciplines and as someone else mentioned, allows companies to be picky. I have seen a lot of adverts that specifically state they will not sponsor foreign applicants. You may have to move here, get everything settled, and hope for the best.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I wish you the best, and don't want to be discouraging. But you need to know that H1-B visas are difficult to get and with our new idiot-in-chief likely to get harder. Even if you are eligible, it will take a long time.

https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/tempor...

In all of the EU there is nobody digging a hole that needs your skill set?

Get a foot in the door with an international E&C or mining company within the EU - without the immigration challenges, then work from within to get transferred to the US or Canada.

http://www.enr.com/toplists/2016-Top-250-Internati...

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
Thank you all for your replies so far! From what you mentioned above I think migration is difficult as a whole nowdays! Well, EU is a mess right now and it will become even worse in the near future! I cannot stay in a "German" union where basic human rights are demolished and which sets my country in an occupied regime,let alone the economic disaster caused!
Ok,as far as Canada is concerned, I got the point! Regarding the United States, is it going to be better if I obtain a MSc from a US institution? Will I be more favorable to possible employers or build more connections as a link to industry, or still will be the same? Note that I am a geological - geotechnical engineer not a civil engineer!

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I spoke with my coworker. He indicated that he contacted the company listed below. They helped him get everything in order. It can't hurt to get in contact with them.

http://hiic.ca/

Hellenic Immigrant Initiative Committee
2255 Grant Ave, Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3P 0S2 Canada
Email: info@hiic.ca

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
jayrod12 you're super! Thank you very very much! bigsmile

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Unless getting an MSc from a US institution somehow changes your legal work status (maybe it does, I just don't know), I don't think that will address the major hurdle you'll find with US employers.

At least in the US, geotechnical/geological engineers are considered a subset of civil engineers (same as structural engineers, land development, stormwater, transportation, etc).

----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Canadian structural here - the job market is a bit soft at the moment, even in the areas that are doing better economically. Traditional resource areas (Alberta, Saskatchewan) are hurting big time from the oil crash. Lots of engineers from there flooded other markets looking for work. Geo's were especially affected by current low commodities.

I would be in the US if family etc wasn't keeping me here. Better salaries + higher dollar, a lower cost of living, bigger market, more varied projects make it a more appealing place to work IMO. if you have a family and are looking for stability, maybe Canada becomes more appealing. But for a young gun, America is where you want to go.

It might be easier to get into Canada than the US, but you will have an easier time finding a job in the US I would think. If you do come to Canada, expect to find work in very remote regions - (may as well go to the third world, at least its probably not as cold)

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Sounds like you have much to learn about Upper Michigan and New Mexico. You won't learn it in Greece.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Quote (geov86)

I cannot stay in a "German" union where basic human rights are demolished and which sets my country in an occupied regime,let alone the economic disaster caused!

I apparently need to do some in-depth reading. I was aware of the financial crisis in Greece, but human rights violations?! What rights have you been deprived of in Greece that you think will be granted in the US, aside from near-unregulated gun ownership?

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

It's actually a French union. The Germans were compelled to join. Just happened to work in their favor.

I didn't know tax evasion and defaulting on debt were "rights".

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I think the OP is referring to the austerity measures imposed by the EU(?) on Greece as a condition of borrowing money to run the country. IIRC, that meant that the government cut back on civil jobs and payments.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

What OP is referring to by ragging on the germans:

The merging of currencies makes buying goods from Germany cheaper paying in euros rather than deutschemarks. Italy, spain, Greece, traditionally poorer countries drag down the price of the euro, giving the world a discount on manufactured german goods.

Greece's competitiveness pre-euro has been killed because richer countries like France, Germany, Holland, prop up the value of the euro, making it more expensive to buy Greek goods in euros than it used to be in drachmas.

Yes, France created the euro, but undoubtedly the biggest benefactors economically have been the Germans.

that's why Germany is happy to continually bail out Greece - keeping them poor keeps Germany competitive.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"making it more expensive to buy Greek goods"

What Greek goods? Their industrial production looks to have been less than 20% of GDP even before the recession. And, their total debt had been over 100% of GDP well before the recession. Seems to me that their utter dependence on tourism was a bigger issue.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Greece should have never joined the EU. While soccer is the national sport of most of those countries, in Greece it is tax evasion. Incompatible.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Greece has economic conditions that are statistically more sever than the Great Depression in the USA. The average citizen has been hit very hard and there is next to nothing they can do about it on an individual level so I can understand the bitterness.
Rather than North America or the EU why not consider Australia - they have completed 26 years of uninterrupted economic growth. However it may be difficult to emigrate as they have tightened up recently but my boss is emigrating this month as his engineering field is not restricted - I have not looked at civils though.
Don't dismiss the EU - Brexit has not happened yet and it's not all in the Euro zone. Why not look at the UK even if only temporally, (I still don't think we will leave - we will see what today's election brings)

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I don't understand why you have to devalue your currency to be competitive. Devaluing your currency basically means everyone paid in your currency takes an effective pay cut. Can't you have valuable currency and just reduce everyone's wages by a few percent or tax everyone more and subsidize exports?

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

George,

For coming to Canada, you should first look at the immigration process - do you qualify for the skilled immigrant category? Any form of sponsored immigrant? Are you coming with other family members?
As bad as it is in Alberta now, it could get better by the time (1-2 years) the it takes to complete the immigration process. Canada is a very large country with great differences between the provinces, almost like the EU. Look outside the big cities - Toronto, Vancouver - and you may find something suitable.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

HamburgerHelper,

Devaluation changes prices only for exports (cheaper) and imports (more expensive). Pay drops relative to other countries, but the cost of local products drops also, so people don't feel it like a pay cut. This stimulates local production and exports.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Quote:

Yes, France created the euro, but undoubtedly the biggest benefactors economically have been the Germans.

Agreed. They successfully leveraged EU policies to destroy the UK and others' manufacturing sectors to protect their own and now have a very nice business relabeling third world goods as "made in Germany" and reselling them at 4000% markup stateside.

As for the OP, I unapologetically tend to lump folks into common "buckets" so apologies if this sounds silly, but given your geotechnical degree I would be curious if you couldn't find work in the US oilpatch. The industry has quite a few foreign vagabonds in it because of the relatively intense but short work cycles and big income potential so you may fit right in.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I don't have much advice for the OP, but I'd like to remind everyone to please stay on topic. Killjoy, I know...

What little advice I do have is to not take Canada as a "single entity". The economic prospects in Toronto are so dramatically different from the economic prospects in northern BC, for example, that your first search may be to identify regions of interest, rather than specific companies or industries to work for. People willing to work in remote areas also gain an advantage, sometimes.

STF

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

The EU is a great scapegoat. The Greek economy is more than anything else a result of decennia of mismanagement by successive Greek governments. The driving force behind the austerity measures are the international creditors including obviously Deutsche Bank, who would under no circumstances let go of their claims.
IMHO if the international creditors had been given the finger (just like Iceland did) -- in which case I guess the EU would have to be given the finger too, too bad -- Greek would have been able to start again from scratch and may have been in better shape already today.

Anyway.

Tip for Greek and other Mediterranean engineers: try the Netherlands, where the number of engineers has dropped 3 or 4-fold over the last 10 years or so. I see many Italians, Spanish and Latin American engineers over there. The Netherlands speak English, don't even bother with Dutch.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
Wow! I didn't expect to set the conversation "on fire" with the EU staff! bigsmile
Ok, let me give some real information because all the mainstream media are doing their "job" hiding the truth.
Greece in reality is under occupation by Germany, brussels, the french and german banks as well as the greek banks and bankers! Our governments and local elite are highly corrupted (basically are the most corrupted political personnel in modern history) and in close relations with Burssels and Germany applying every single demand Germany and its corporations have. Our governments have,for the favour of the EU and germans,given up the state's sovereignty, the privatized every single public structure (they even sold the FIR of Athens) in favour of germany and they fully violated the state's consitution!A very good example to see what's going on in Greece is the example of fraport! Fraport is a german (state owned) company and our current government sold to fraport 14 regional greek airports with the prospect that fraport would invest approximately 300million euros. Could you imagine what was our government's deal with fraport? Read! Fraport was actually created as a company by a german state, and with only 20,000 euros of capital our government gave them 14 regional airports, and in order for fraport to make the 300million euros investments it's going to borrow money from our banks (which the greek people recapitalized 4 times with their own money as they were bankrupted), and with warranties given by the greek state for fraport to manage to take the loans in a way that if fraport, in the future,doesn't care about having these airports anymore, all the debt from the management of the 14 regional airports will pass to the greek state and its citizens in order to be paid back. To make it more clear, the situation is like " You are broke because you gave to your friend some money. So you sell your home to me but I don't have the money to buy it right now so I borrow the money you gave to your friend (your money) and I buy your home (I still wonder which bank would be crazy enough to give me for example 1,000,000 euros loan if my monthly income is 150 euros and my only asset is a bicycle! - clearly a fraud!), but with your warranty, so, in case some years later I am not interested anymore having your home or something goes wrong for me and my profits, I will leave the house but you will be responsible to pay all the bills I didn't pay and all the debt I created during my stay there"!


Also, when I say human rights I mean every single human right in the world! They violated almost all of the human rights declared by the United Nations' treaties(there were two studies conducted in Greece by UN stating this), the treaties of the EU (european law), as well as the hellenic constitution (hellenic law), let alone that, based on the vienna treaty of the UN, they conduct genocide in Greece by imposing all of these (based on statistical measurements we reached 120,000 deaths more than births during 2016)! They even violated the right to life just to save the german and french banks!

Generally, what the world must understand is that Greece's problem is not only the austerity measures (these are the least)! The worst problem is the occupation that was deliberately imposed in Greece in order for Greece to lose all of its resources, and that they destroy and sell every single piece of greece!Greece,as a sovereign state,in terms of international law, does not exist anymore!It became a colony! I can talk hours about this issue, as there so many violations and corruption both by the EU and germany, as well as by the loval elite and our governments!They are countless!

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Do like I did: find an American gal, fall in love, move to the US and marry her, and get a Green Card. smile

More seriously, why don't you try Europe? As an European you're free to go and work anywhere in the EU. Living in the US is not all it's cracked up to be, no offense meant.

I design aqueducts in a parallel universe.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I'd suggest to the OP that if he is planning to come to Canada, or to the US for that matter, it might be best to unburden himself of the rather large and obvious chip on his shoulder in relation to perceived unfair treatment of his home country before he even steps onto the plane. Travelling light is usually a good recommendation, especially when it comes to baggage like that.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I'd take the opposite view as I see no such chip, only honesty and personal experience. Despite what our soap-opera media says most folks stateside privately appreciate candor and see a certain nobility in appreciative folks moving here and assimilating for a better life. In the corporate world candor will get you promoted if used tactfully, most folks today are fearfully polite and tend to be "yes men" whereas the successful few walk a fine line between "nice guy" and "jerk."

I'd wager the OP would have crowds of folks interested in hearing his story in offices I've worked. OTOH, if he finds life in America "not what its cracked up to be" he'd best move home as friends and successes will be few and far between. Having lived on five continents before 30 I'll gladly stay here, others are welcome to live where theyre happiest.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

With regard to CWB1 post,I think the challenge, (or the "art"), is to talk with candor, factually, but without denigrating. By the way, this is also a general statement - not connected to geov86's stance.

I would tend to say moltenmetal's approach is the best. Maybe just start on a new leaf... and make the best out of it (or out of your new welcoming country, whatever that is smile ).

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I knew I'd hit a nerve somewhere. lol

I design aqueducts in a parallel universe.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
I don't, by all means, want to go through as weirdo or somebody who believes that all of the world treats his country in an unfair manner. I just wrote an actual fact about my country and the situation that is on here because as far as I know from people I have abroad the message is "Greece has a debt, Greece owns money etc..".

The reason I don't try in Europe is because, in my opinion, EU will collapse sooner or later, and I'm afraid it will happen with a war! Things are pretty bad here in all over Europe!None of the EU member states apart from Germany does have normal and stable employment opportunities,and German industry in regards to Geotechnical is relatively small, let alone you have to know the language. One option would be England but apart from their current political crisis there (EU won't let Britain to exit the EU, they will try to overturn the British referendum), the living conditions there are not that suitable for me. Of course, if I have to, I would go to England but knowing that there's a chance for me to work for example in living conditions like California or Arizona (climate closer to what I'm used in) makes me feel better. Regarding to Canada the reason i want to work there is because of the welfare state and, generally, from what I've heard, is a really good place for having a family.

Also,of course when I get on the plane for another country, I'll stop any discussion about my country(except when I'll be asked about my opinion).I respect all countries along with their people, and I will offer my best to the country that will trust my knowledge and qualifications. smile

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Geo,
Pessimism is rampant not only in the EU, but in the USA as well. Solution: move to Canada instead!
For our 150th birthday, we're giving ourselves a new pipeline to China.
We put oil in one end, they put money in the other. The 21st century belongs to Canada

STF

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
Sparweb thanks! Do you think I will have a future there? I have zero experience in the oil industry!

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Geo,
Most of us came here as immigrants (not all of us, but most) if you just count back enough generations.
I truly do not know or understand the immigrant experience, so I humbly don't think I have any useful advice for you, but I can offer encouragement.
Neither am I well connected to any industry except aircraft, but I don't see why your experience (as you described in your first post) won't get some doors to open.
You will just have to do the work to make connections, use Linkedin and stuff like that, to find the places you want to go.
Want more insight into Canada and what's going on here? Read our news / listen to our radio stations - it's all on-line if you want it.
Want to travel here as a tourist to see if you like it? This year tourism is booming, because our dollar is low, so you'll have plenty of company.

STF

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

The OP is correct that the EU will not let the UK leave which is of immense relief to at least half of the population assuming that Mrs May is not stupid enough to go for a full Hard Bretix. With regards to not wanting to come to the UK because the sun does not shine as much as in California I think that a Canadian winter will come as a shock.
Germany does not have 'normal' employment due to the Works Councils that seem to have undue influence on what the employer can do as mine are finding out at the present time. (Try and shut a German plant regardless of how inefficient it is).
Going to any country because of the welfare state is something that would be best kept to ones self but I think that the UK has a better one than most other places judging by the numbers that come here to allegedly reap the benefits, (if only to die in a tragic high rise fire).
Finally I understand the OP's anger at the leadership and general treatment of his country and I wish both him and his compatriots a better future.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

The welfare state in Canada will be nothing like what you have in Greece. It is not lavish by any means and very difficult to get on the dole - as an able bodied man with a degree I doubt you'd ever qualify for anything but old age security.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"Regarding to Canada the reason i want to work there is because of the welfare state and, generally, from what I've heard, is a really good place for having a family."

You appear to have a sense of entitlement that belies what you say are problems caused by external actors.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@SparWeb : thank you for your pieces of advice my friend. I will do a good search then. However coming there is impossible financially. :)

@DerbyLoco : My friend you should wish for the UK to leave the EU too. The European Union is a self-destructive, dictatorial union and every single country,especially GB, has enormous opportunities outside the EU. Should british people wish to destroy themselves and their future is the only reason for British people to remain within the EU. thank you for your good words, I hope not only my country but all of the countries should have a better future for their citizens.

@canwesteng : Canwesteng I don't want a lavish welfare state. I just want me and my future family to have the opportunity to go to a public hospital and get a good treatment without having to pay thousands of dollars to private institutions or taking loans for my health. I believe (this is the way I was raised here in Greece, and I consider this to be true) that healthcare system is a right not a privilege.

@IRstuff : Basically, I can't understand your conclusion :)

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Come on over to Canada for the welfare state (lol).

It aint like Greece in the glory days my friend. Everyone pays an arm and a leg in tax, and the services received are great when absolutely critical, but mediocre otherwise.

Get diagnosed with cancer, heart problems? yes, you will be in for treatment right away. life critical issues are dealt with swiftly.

Swollen prostate (affects 50% of men over 50), wake up and cant pee no matter how hard you push? spend 18 hours waiting in emergency, finally have an overworked, overburdened nurse shove a catheter in you as fast as she can (creating an excruciatingly painful, massive bloody mess in the process). get discharged and wait 4 weeks with the catheter in and a bag tied to your leg until you can get a 15 minute appointment with the specialist to give you a once over and write you a prescription. This is a personal experience of my dad a couple months ago.

Hardly the kind of care I look forward to, after having paid huge taxes my entire life. Furthermore, the standard of care is only going to get worse as the population ages in the next 30 years to come.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"Basically, I can't understand your conclusion"

Seems pretty straightforward to me. You have welfare of some form that you claim are "rights" that need to be paid for with a robust and growing economy, which your country does not have. You blame other countries for your financial woes, yet you are unwilling to give up your entitlements and want to move to another country because it has them.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I would encourage Geo and others to keep an open mind regarding social programs elsewhere. I've lived under various types and worked with many foreigners here and abroad. JMO but theyre different with their good and bad but not something to really look down upon. I often tell folks if they dont like how thing are locally then move, not to be a jerk but the world's a big place and opinions often change given first-hand experience. Our previous capitalistic US healthcare system for example no doubt had flaws, mainly that a few folks were only covered via basic and emergency services but it also had its good points in that excellent coverage existed fairly cheaply for most. Europe's various systems and the Canadian system IMHO are a bit more moderate, more folks are covered but coverage isnt nearly as good, as cheap, nor as readily available. To each their own choices but please respect others' decisions and if you like a different system better then start packing, dont try to turn the country into the city.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@NorthCivil : Thank you for your reply my friend.I fully understand. The same situation applies to Greece's healthcare system as well. However, it is really important that you don't have to pay like in the states,to take loans, and to have to deal with private insurance companies etc.I may have a wrong perspective regarding the canadian healthcare system, it's just that I've heard over times that the healthcare there is great.I wish it won't get worse there.

@IRstuff : It seems you don't have a clear view but I will try to explain a little bit more. The welfare I claim it should exist in every country as a right,not only greece, in my opinion. If you were aware about the numbers you would know that my country can definitely support there rights. The only thing my country can't support along with these is the illegal loans taken by our governments years and years ago in order for them to speculate and earn money through these loans.I don't blame anyone for our woes but ourselves as greek citizens for keep voting for certain people and families to govern greece. Instead, I admire countries like canada (though I may be wrong as northcivil said), sweden, norway etc which have this kind of exemplary benefits.Also in iceland the same thing applies and iceland is not a developed country.It faced a tough situation back in 2009 similar to Greece's.Also, the reason I want to move to another country is not only the healthcare system. Life here has become unbearable in any way,from personal security to working conditions,employment and life standards.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Quote:

it is really important that you don't have to pay like in the states,to take loans, and to have to deal with private insurance companies etc.

Why? With all due respect my friend, it sounds like the media and politicians have distorted your view, we dont really do that as modern Greeks dont really wear togas. :P

Here stateside we pay about half the taxes that Europeans do which more than compensates for paying for healthcare and other social programs privately, its a major reason why our cost of living is comparably cheap. We also have a significantly better, more inclusive, and more available system. The media focuses on surveys and all manner of other nonsense but reality is that the availability of care, and especially the availability of HIV, cancer, and other specialty care in remote parts of the US is amazingly common. Yes, most pay ~$4500USD/yr/family for health insurance but until our recent disastrous social experiments (O-care), that commonly got you significantly better coverage than offered via the European or Canadian socialized systems. Those socialized systems IMHO are more comparable to the free basic and emergency care systems for all unemployed and uninsured working-age adults that the US has had for decades.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"free basic and emergency care systems for all unemployed and uninsured working-age adults that the US has had for decades."

TNSTAAFL. We, the ones with insurance, are subsidizing the "free basic and emergency care," and are doing it at easily 5x the cost it could have been had these people had actual insurance and had gone to a primary care physician in an office visit. Moreover, because they don't have insurance, they go to the emergency dept. because what might had been trivial to treat when it first appeared has turned something that is life threatening, thereby incurring additional costs.

It's a completely stupid concept, particularly for a culture that claims, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Primary care doctors typically employ one or two medical assistants that make under $20/hr, and have no major capital equipment. Run that cost against any ED, with an army of specialists, RNs, techs, x-ray, MRI, ultrasound, and OR on demand. That's why any ED visit requires, even on my insurance, $100 co-pay, compared to $20 for an office visit.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Geo,
I was hoping your "welfare state" comment wouldn't get noticed - and that you didn't really mean what it looks like you meant.
Well. As you can see, that subject is an excellent way to get any discussion sidetracked, in any country.
It is a badly misused term, and can't be used in the english language any more, unless you intend to make judgemental comments.

STF

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@SparWeb : I can see that and I am really sorry about it but I didn't know the problem of using this term.I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, I just explained my reasons for wanting the one or the other country. Thank you for letting me know in order to be more careful in the future. smile

@CWB1 : haha that was good about togas! Ok, what I meant was that,as far as I have seen,private healthcare system does not compare with social healthcare system in a way that, private institutions care primarily for their profits (very reasonable as they are companies) and therefore some things change (i.e the coverage conditions and terms may differ,as well as the cases,the payment for treatment is different,the copay for each medical examination etc).Anyway,I would love to know more about the healthcare system in the US as I am interested in moving there so if you'd like (and of course have the time) to provide me with some more details in order to help me get some things clear, I would really appreciate this a lot.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

The topic is off the rails, so I'm going to contribute to the spur line a bit.

Canadians spend 11% of their GDP to provide basic healthcare to 100% of their population. Other nations do it for less, but they don't have the geographic challenges we have. Our system isn't perfect by any stretch- lots of room for improvement, but most Canadians are very satisfied with the basic single payor concept. The key advantages of our system, aside from its vastly lower cost, are the fact that there is no such thing as a pre-existing condition here.

Americans have a very complex system which consists of a very substantial publicly-funded sector (Medicare, Medicaid and the VA health system), plus a private system consisting primarily of healthcare provided through insurance paid for by employers- in what is surely the highest de-facto payroll tax in the world, but which seems to be acceptable to Americans because it's not called a tax and, while employed at least, they don't feel like they pay much for it out of their own pockets. That system provides good, but not the best healthcare in the world based on outcomes, to most people but not all, and it costs 17% of US GDP.

The difference between 17% and 11%, an amount which surely the US could achieve with a single payor system or a more reasonable public/private system than the one they have now, is 6% of US GDP, an amount of money roughly twice what the US currently spends on its entire military. And that, folks, is why the US will NEVER have an efficient single-payor healthcare system. Ever. That money wields way too much political power for that change to ever be possible.

Canadians only managed the transition from private to public healthcare as a result of a ballsy move by a socialist premier of Saskatchewan, Tommy Douglas. Tommy broke the resulting doctors' strike by bringing in replacement doctors from the UK who had witnessed the incredible positive outcome of the immplementation of the NHS there. Once the rest of the country saw how well the experiment worked, they implemented it themselves, province by province. Had it failed, we'd be in the same mess as the US, only worse because our population density is far lower and hence our overhead costs have to be far higher. And we have to face a constant lobbying effort from people who want a slice of that 6% of our GDP for themselves.

It works in Canada also for another key reason: we pay our taxes here. Tax cheats here are seen not as clever, but as scoundrels- shirkers, who aren't paying their fair share like everyone else. That's a cultural thing, for sure. Sure, there are people here who feel taxes here are too high, and that government is too wasteful- but they still pay their taxes, for the most part. And if 11% vs 17% tells you anything, it's that as wasteful as anything run by government may seem, there's an even less efficient "public-private partnership" to be found if you're creative enough.

The populations in both the US and Canada are aging at roughly the same rate. If current costs are 11% of GDP in Canada and you are concerned about our ability to take care of an aging population, the Americans are totally screwed.

Ok, we can go back to discussing what country best suits the needs of someone fleeing the Greek kleptocracy, or German oppression, or what have you.


RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

moltenmetal (or anyone) - how are doctors paid in Canada? Is it salary or per procedure/appointment? Does the government operate like an insurance company or an employer? Is pay comparable to what doctors make in the US? Is the profession still desirable enough to attract the best and brightest? I ask not to debate, but to learn. This has always been a concern of mine - that if the government took over healthcare completely, quality would slowly dwindle due to lack of competition.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
As far as I can see, bringing up the healthcare system topic was clearly a huge mistake bigsmile

@moltenmetal: I share the same opinion with you as our countries have (so far) the same healthcare system (public) and I fully understand what you're saying.I would say more about this even prior to your post but the point of the topic is not the healthcare system as well as this topic is a hot topic (as I noticed) and I didn't want the conversation to go down the wrong way.

@FoxRox: what moltenmetal wants to point is that the healthcare system relies on the public sector, meaning that the healthcare providers are mainly public structures (i.e public hospitals),though private institutions are not excluded.These doctors are essentially civil servants receiving a salary and the state operates both as an employer as well as like an insurance institution with the only difference being that the cost of any medical examination, treatment or surgery is almost half the price of that performed by the private sector, and this is covered mostly by the state.

Regarding the income issue you're pointing, my opinion is that income is not the only factor affecting the quality of the healthcare services.There are other factors too such as a competitive work environment or the love for your job. Just imagine that in a deregulated economy where everyone is free to ask whatever amount he wants, plus the fact he needs to have a significant profit,the prices are set enormously high for no reason when the same examination or surgery could be done in a very very lower price as the state's priority is to provide service to its citizens, not to make profits.For example,I was needed to have a surgery here and it costed approximately 1500 euros which were covered by my insurance. the same surgery in the US would cost me between 15000-30000$ and I doubt if any private insurance would cover this.So even if I was uninsured it was more easy for me to pay 1500 euros than 15000$ or more. A very good example of public healthcare system is Sweden which has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, and you don't have to pay a single krone when it comes to your health. Of course taxation is high, as it is in canada as well, and as it was in greece with the only difference being that in greece the taxation was high in order to repay illegal loans taken by our governments not for the favor of our healthcare or educational system. Also, public healthcare providers are more "free" to face any kind of problem regardless how it was created and whether it preexisted or not.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Geo, thanks for appreciating the joke. I'll try to explain the basics but please bear with me on this, it can be tough to understand. Apologies in advance if you knew all/most of this already and hopefully my countrymen will give me some leniency if my experience with healthcare doesn't match theirs.

First and foremost keep in mind that the US is the land of "freedom of choice" and that applies to everything from employment to insurance. Secondly, please realize that job-hopping between competing employers to maximize income and personal benefit for you as a worker is common and accepted here in the US unlike some other countries. Ours is a comparatively big country and big economy with lots of different opportunity, comparable to Europe as a whole in both size and GDP with roughly half the population.

Most workers in the US buy insurance through their employer. Employers negotiate with the various insurance companies directly to get the best balance of cost and coverage for their employees. You don't have to purchase insurance through your employer but you typically get much better rates through them than you would individually dealing directly with insurance companies and those costs are often untaxed by the govt if bought through an employer. If you have a working spouse then you have more options for buying insurance, you could buy through hers, yours, directly through an insurance company (without employer involvement), or go without. Within each employer there are typically a couple options with varying upfront and backend costs. We pay monthly and depending on the plan, we may or may not need to pay again when we use services - deductibles and copays. A copay means you pay a (typically small) amount everytime you use a service, a deductible means you pay everything up to an amount then insurance covers everything beyond that for the year. Younger folks don't use as many health services so typically get a plan that costs less monthly upfront but has more backend costs should they actually need services, older folks pay more monthly but use more services so are less tolerant of deductibles and copays. We also typically consider dental and eye care separate from healthcare and have the option to buy that or not at the same time as normal "primary" healthcare, also through employers.

What this boils down to is this - I sign up to buy insurance once annually through my employer and pay ~$400 monthly for myself and family for health, dental, and vision. I typically get the most expensive plan offered as I'm not a gambler, I prefer to pay higher upfront monthly costs and don't want to deal with too many copays or deductibles. I go to the doc every few months for something and might pay $1-200 copay each time, but typically get excellent service. Granted, I am at least semi-educated on these matters and choose employers based not only upon cash pay but also benefits and consider health insurance a "must-have." My brother often works for professional contract staffing companies which typically pay more cash but often do not offer health insurance. He simply goes without and grumbles about wanting socialized medicine while collecting more $USD, and may one day have a catastrophic need for a doctor that bankrupts him. JMO but his choices are his, mine are mine. I have a family to worry about, he doesn't.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@CWB1 : Thank you very much for explaining further about the US healthcare system. I completely understand.I wish the best to your family, you're doing absolutely right, I would make my choices to offer the best to my family too.

I understand what you wrote about the healthcare system there and I find them to be fair if I take into account that you have private healthcare providers and insurance companies there. However, you gave me further knowledge to use when it comes to my decision for immigration. Thank you very much again! smile

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Quote:

These doctors are essentially civil servants receiving a salary and the state operates both as an employer as well as like an insurance institution with the only difference being that the cost of any medical examination, treatment or surgery is almost half the price of that performed by the private sector.

The trouble comparing systems is that they are not directly comparable. Like Canada, private healthcare in Europe is an expensive luxury for which folks pay a premium. That makes your public system seem comparably cheap and leads folks to believe the same would be true here when in reality you folks are paying a serious premium for both and preventing the masses from accessing the best and brightest. Access to that care stateside is typically only a function of the patient's proximity to that care, not whether or not they can afford it.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@CWB1 : Private healthcare is somehow a "luxury", however, it is not what it makes our system cheap. Macroeconomicaly speaking, healthcare is a public good and creates economies of scale meaning that the more you provide, the lower the cost. Apart from that private institutions are after profits whereas the state provides services without expecting profits. Therefore, it has the ability,for the same service, to lower the price for any kind of treatment or examination significantly.

As for the best and brightest, I would argue about this as apart from the income (which doesn't mean that it is low for the doctors of public hospitals), there are other factors such as the competition of the work environment,and the work environment itself, that play also an important role for attracting the best and brightest.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

FoxRox: we have a constant leakage of both doctors and nurses across the border, and have to train more of both to cover this- but we don't have a shortage of either doctors or nurses. There certainly is no shortage of applicants to medical schools here.

Family docs are paid on a fee for service basis. They're little private businesses, free to set up where they want. Some set up as multidisciplinary businesses with a nurse practitioner to take care of the routine things, a dietician, a physiotherapist etc. all in the same practice. Others are all on their own, with maybe a receptionist. They send their bills to only one place though- the provincial government. Small towns tend to be under-serviced by family docs, partially because of lifestyle considerations (i.e. the doc's spouse isn't a doc and needs a job, so easier to find that in an urban setting, or because in a remote area you can only take a vacation if you have a locum available to come in and cover your patients etc.). Large cities tend to have enough docs. The province and the doctors' collective bargaining body collude to limit the number of internships available and hence control the supply so that docs can make a good living and to ensure that there aren't so many that provincial billings to through the roof. There is no price competition among docs- they are de-facto unionized, though many would spit on you if you called them that. In my living memory there has indeed been a doctors' strike, but only once, and that was over 30 yrs ago.

Hospital docs are paid by the hospital which is funded directly by the province.

Some specialists are resident in hospitals, while others have separate practices and operate more like the family docs. Being a specialist is a much higher paying gig, so we generate a lot of specialists and export them to the US, regrettably not giving them a bill for their public-subsidized education at the border when they leave.

Ask the average Canadian and they're very satisfied with the single payor nature of our system. They get care, triaged on the basis of need rather than wealth. Pharmaceuticals and dental aren't covered yet, so that's a worry for people without secondary coverage through employment, but pharma here is cheaper because the province sets the price as bulk buyer and we all benefit at the drugstore. Like all systems it's imperfect and in constant need of refining and improvement, but it beats the hell out of the worry inherent in an insurance-based system.




RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Geo, yes I'm well aware of the theoretical advantages of socialized medicine. Unfortunately reality doesnt prove those theories true, contrary to media and others' personal agendas the US capitalistic system is actually slightly cheaper as a whole and vastly cheaper to individual workers while providing considerably better care than Canada and most in Europe. Simply stated, foreign governments are about as inefficient as ours when it comes to spending money - terrible! No doubt there are many considerations to reach this conclusion but when reviewing facts we must apply liberal doses of common sense. Cost/GDP for example is irrelevant, obviously wealthier countries like wealthier people can afford to spend a higher percentage of income on even seemingly frivolous things like healthcare and still come out ahead. Cost/GDP/capita is the relevant but rarely considered statistic as it helps normalize GDP between differing population sizes, and in this case pretty clearly shows that the US has ~20% more to spend than Canada. We dont spend all of that 20%, meaning ours as a whole is actually a better deal than our northern neighbors. Considering employers pay the majority of the cost makes it even better.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Sounds like fact free bloviating to me. Here's some, you know, like, numbers, not hot air.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/which-count...

Norway, Switzerland and the United States are the world’s three biggest healthcare spenders – paying $9,715 per person (9.6% of GDP), $9,276 per person (11.5% of GDP), and $9,146 per person (17.1% of GDP) respectively.

But other countries’ health systems are managing to achieve similar or better results for far less. Hong Kong spends $1,716 per person (6% of GDP), Israel $2,599 per person (7.2% of GDP) and Singapore $2,507 (4.6% of GDP). These countries, like Norway and Switzerland, have life expectancies of between 82 and 83 years. By comparison, life expectancy in the US is 79.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@CWB1 : I can't say anything about the comparison of the two systems with precision if I don't know every single detail about both of them. For example, why do you believe that private healthcare system is cheaper than the socialized? You said you pay 400$ per month about your plan and that it includes health,vision and dental.Is it for unlimited use?Does a person pay more in future contracts when he uses the services more? What limitations does the contract have? I am not asking for these questions in order to judge, I only want to learn more,don't get me wrong smile . I can't speak for Canada, I know how the system works here in greece (excluding the last seven years which our HC system is getting worse), for example even the simplest plan costs approximately 150 euros per month and includes every single examination,treatment or visit to doctors-public hospitals, apart from dental and orthodontics, for unlimited use and with no exceptions. there are only copays on each examination or treatment(regardless of the treatment or examination) approximately 8%, without any other payment.
I addition, the fact that employers pay doesn't mean that your income is not affected. In the US, employer may be the one who pays for insurance but he cuts an equal amount of money from his employee's income,so finally, the employee is the one who pays the bill.And if, for example, he finally ends up paying a total of 400$ or 500$/month or more, and with exceptions within the contract (I assume, I don't know of course you know better about contracts there), then I can't see why private healthcare is cheaper or at least comparable. I agree that cost/GDP is irrelevant.The fact that spending for healthcare is not directly visible at the state's budget doesn't mean that it is less because what the state is unable to cover, it is for the people to cover it by themselves.

@GregLocock : I can't see where, even, the equal results are, according to WHO, p.18 smile
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Also, I am talking about efficiency, quality and quantity of services to the people regarding healthcare,not about cost. As far as the cost/GDP ratio is concerned,CWB1 is right that it is irrelevant. The point is how much does someone pay per month for healthcare services,as well as what kind of services he receives. GDP is just a number which doesn't mean a lot when it comes to real life. What would the GDP matter for you if your state's economy was able to spend 9% or 10% instead of 6%-7% and be able to grant you free healthcare, free education, a really good income and a good quality of life? If you, your children and your parents have had a good quality of life,and the state's economy was able to grow and maintain this quality,would you care about the GDP,bonds,finances,monetary policies etc?
In my opinion,economics is a social science, not engineering or mathematics. People should be first, not spending and GDPs, which also happen to be inaccurate economic indexes.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

We agree that how public money is collected and spent is a matter of societal values. The fact that people everywhere, even in the US, don't find it acceptable for their compatriots to die merely because they can't afford healthcare services that are otherwise waiting there ready to be provided to them, means that there can be no real price competition or free market for health services. Those services are a public good, and in my view they're a human right. This fact is why even the US requires a very substantial expenditure from the public purse for healthcare services. To be honest, the US spends nearly as high a % of its GDP to provide only the public portion of its healthcare, as the rest of the world's nations do to provide healthcare to their entire population. The private portion is pretty much just additive on top of that public spending, and yet this inefficient public/private combination still leaves people in the US uninsured and going bankrupt as a result of illness. In every meaningful sense, that extra 6% of US GDP is wasted- it is money spent without any meaningful benefit in terms of health outcomes. Sure, it circulates money in the economy, in the same way that a natural disaster causes people to spend money to build replacement homes. Obviously GDP isn't the only measure required to understand a country's economic performance in broader terms.

% of GDP IS, however, an indication of how affordable a program is for the country funding it- how sustainable it will ultimately be in economic terms, and how much of a drain it is on the resources of society in general rather than on one group of individuals versus another. That you don't think that this is important, or perhaps you don't really understand WHY it's important, is an indication to me that you probably need to give some additional thought to what actually happened in Greece.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

@geov86

You said "The reason I don't try in Europe is because, in my opinion, EU will collapse sooner or later, and I'm afraid it will happen with a war! Things are pretty bad here in all over Europe!None of the EU member states apart from Germany does have normal and stable employment opportunities"

I think you are depriving yourself of a great opportunity. You can move to any other EU country and live and work there without any permit requirement. Spit on the EU as much as you want, there are some great privileges to enjoy among 300 million Europeans. I mentioned the Netherlands, its employment market is similar to Germany's - the country small as it is may have espcaped your radar.

I don't get the war reference. The EU is an administrative construction, not a religion. It's not worth fighting for.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

I see that you mentionned the Netherlands twice.
I have worked there for many years and have been in charge on multibillion dollar projects.
I guess I have made a contribution socially and economically to the country that was visible.
At some point I needed a visit visa for my 3 month old daughter to have her move to the Netherlands until I can set up in parallel the rest of the paperwork to let her move there for good.
She was given a 3 month visa! When this visa expired, I asked for a new one.
She was then given a 2 month visa.

This is a 3 month old child mind you ....
I let you appreciate this. I am fine and did not loose my mind because of that....

As EU. Citizen certaimly you would not have to endure this. But I think its good to let people know about this sort of privilegied treatment...

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@moltenmetal : There's no point going on with this discussion as it sidetracked the original one,as well as the healthcare topic requires discussing it for ages. I'd only say one last thing about the cost/GDP ration. The GDP is, macroeconomically speaking, an indirect index of a society's welfare. However,as the theory admits and not my opinion, GDP has proven to be an inaccurate index as it has some weaknesses. The cost/GDP ratio is irrelevant with the efficiency and the services provided.It is relevant with the "how much of the GDP goes to healthcare and medical issues",but again this doesn't say anything about efficiency. And even in terms of cost is not a pretty important thing to mention. For example, let's assume that in canada you are using the 7% of your GDP for the healthcare system and in greece we are using the 9%. What are exactly the useful pieces of information you draw from this along by itself? Are you in a position to say that the 2% difference drains the economy? In addition, even if 10% goes to the HC system, are you able to define how is this funded just by looking at the GDP? For instance, this difference may be covered by possible state's entrepreneurial actions where the state creates income by itself instead of just redistribute the income as normally does.Also the GDP is not an accurate index and does not reflect the actual welfare especially for a state where there is a huge inequality between its citizens. As for greece, I can explain to you in a PM (not here as we have greatly sidetracked the discussion already) why it has reached in the today's status, and you will understand that it wasn't for the healthcare or educational system that drained our economy and led us where we are today,even if we were about to spend 10% of our GDP to the HC system, but the european union along with our meshed up administration.

@epoisses : Unfortunately there aren't any. And I say unfortunately not because I don't like the other european countries,I like and respect every country in the world.And many of them (i.e Italy,Spain,Portugal) are really beautiful countries. The point,and that must be understood by the rest of the world, is that the EU is an undemocratic union where germany (mainly) controls everything, and in order for germany's economy to grow and become more strong, it has to destroy all the other countries within the union. So far it managed to do this by destroying and occupying greece, and I am not very proud at all saying this about my country but it's true. The question is whether germany and brussels (the EU's administration) will find criminals of the same level at the rest of the EU countries' administration too in order to succeed doing the same to them as well. Also, there's the trump administration, russia etc, and that's why I suspect that EU will collapse. And even if it will not, I don't want to live in an undemocratic,dictatorial union. EU is not a religion but it has the best colonialists throughout history (just remember from the beginning of world's history till WW1 and WW2).Now, they apply the neoliberalism in favour of their corporations all over europe,as well as for the european banks. It may be hard to believe that but if get more into details you'll understand what a mesh EU is into.

Netherlands is the same as Germany. There aren't so many geotechnical jobs and,in addition, you have to know the language to have more opportunities,let alone that especially dutch people don't get along well with people from south europe,something that it's not valid for the germans.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"let alone that especially dutch people don't get along well with people from south europe"
The way my daughter's visa application has been handled is something I did not appreciate and I found very sad. A little innocent child should have certain rights that warrant them to be treated with the upmost respect.

As for working/living conditions in the Netherlands, I tend to disagree with the above statement (which I find not founded).
For instance, in the Netherlands, corruption is almost non existing, the law is strong (one of the first rated country in the world in this respect) and the regulations are enforced (including labor code), HSE and working conditions standard is among the highest in the world, infrastructure are safe and reliable, healthcare standard is also one the best world. People are very well educated and most of their universities rank in the top 100 in the world (some probably in the top 20). All tough corrective measures are being attempted, there still is a solid tendency for people to not choose technical / engineering paths which makes the country even more attractive for foreign engineers for example.
For my health insurance - for example, I personally pay premium roughly 100 Euro/Month with includes 600 Euro deductible /year. It is slightly expensive but if for instance you get seriously sick (cancer, heart attack, etc.) - you get immediately and seriously treated and the quality of the care is extremely good.
Beside this, they have an extremely attractive tax abattment system for expats and a Ducth-American friendship treaty that facilitate the move of Americans which helps in feeding even more talents to the country.
The German healthcare system is in this respect quite different, with basically two public/private systems. Its very difficult to get into the public system and the private system is to my opinion very expensive.
As for the people, I think they get along with people but it takes time; the key here is that YOU have to win their respect in their referential of values which is often focused on hard work, knowledge, seriousness and accountability. In that respect, it is a very strong and respectable culture and I would definitely consider that option along with US/Canada if I were you.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

@geov86

"...in order for germany's economy to grow and become more strong, it has to destroy all the other countries within the union."

Any economist can prove you wrong on that point. Germany depends heavily on exports. If the rest of Europe is bankrupt, Germany will end up bankrupt.
Try not to see evil everywhere, man. It's not sane.

On your other comments on the EU - I know Greece is in a very bad position and being butchered by the corporate bloodsuckers like Fraport, I understand the hard feelings very well, although words like genocide are totally misplaced in this context and you know it. BTW I was of the opinion several years ago already that Greece would have better off out of the EU than in, and I still wonder why your country is still in there if people really think it's suicidal. In reality, if you look at how many millions the EU (read: northern Europe) has spent on highways and bridges in countries like Spain, the benefits are tanglible. A Grexit would not be more of a shock than a Brexit, which I find pretty much of a non-event, seen from France.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@rotw : My statement wasn't about living/working conditions in general. Of course netherlands,in terms of economy, is strong enough, don't get me wrong. The state is working properly, I agree with you in everything you just said! The problem is that dutch people don't get alone very well with certain nationalities (i.e southern europeans) and especially greeks, something not valid even for german people. I am saying this because I know people who live in the dutch state. Also, don't forget that due to the EU crisis a sort of accusation was developed between the north EU states and the south EU states etc. I don't want to say anything further as we have sidetracked the discussion a lot, however, of course I will have in mind the dutch state along with my other two choices but, frankly, I want to leave as far away as it gets from the EU with what I've seen and went through until now. Don't get me wrong, if you were in my shoes you'd understand! smile

@epoisses : An economist would instead validate my sayings.I can say many more things about this but allow me to do it via pm if you'd like, not here, because it's irrelevant with the topic. Very quickly, the theory of monetary unions states that when countries with different economies coexist in the union, and with a stable currency, the strongest countries would make surpluses because the weakest economies of the union make deficits. In other words, the surplus of germany is based on the deficit of greece, or portugal, or spain (i.e germany lends money to the weak economies in order for them to purchase german products). This is also why due to the extreme advantage of german industry as well as the favourable for germany regulations passed from the EU parliament,greece, portugal or every other weaker state will never be able to grow its economy. You can search more info regarding the theory of monetary unions if you'd like.

As for german exports, it's far from what you said. Germany exports to many other countries in the whole world, as well as Berlin during the last years of the EU crisis started to become world banker obtaining a huge share in the financial and capital industry.The only (sad) thing you should have in mind is that germany now doesn't care about anything regarding the EU.The only thing that matters for germany now is the EU integration, and that is because the German administation wants to succeed through finanical means what hitler didn't manage in the WW2 : To destroy all the EU nation states and integrate all of the EU states under its total occupation in order for its economy, as well as its military, to grow bigger. To provide you with an example, apart from every single Greek State's asset they made us sell to them and their companies, even our national FIR, they are now planing to even set several greek military units under the direct control of the german military. They've already done this with finland for example.

Finally, the word genocide wasn't used by me accidentally. There were two UN's studies as well as several international law's articles (vienna treaty as far as I remember) which state what is genocide with 5 conditions. Here in greece, most of these conditions apply. One more thing is about EU spending in greece for infrastructure. In reality, this was the real disaster. The money spent on the infrastructure projects weren't a governmental funding. They were loans which we didn't actually need,and through which our governments back then used to speculate and make fortunes by destroying our countries industry and buy german goods, and now,due to these kinds of loans, and with devastated industry and economy, all of the EU states (with greece being the first) are totally deep into debt.

Our country is still in the union, and will be there, if we,as a nation don't decide to get rid of our corrupted political personnel. This personnel along with the elite do their best to maintain the position within the EU because this is the way they will protect themselves and their fortunes from facing the law for what they've done so far.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

Geo, yes our private plans are essentially unlimited use with the only significant cost being possible copays for each visit, however we also typically have a max annual non-premium total "out of pocket" cost defined in the plan (most IME ~$5k) which limits copays and deductibles. Granted, it depends on the plan but until recently I never had copays for common services including vision and dental, I paid upfront and was simply covered. As your employer bargains on behalf of all employees and insurance companies on behalf of employers, your cost is no different than others with the same plan and often common even between employers - economies of scale but with competition. Some limitations do apply, coverage of preexisting conditions being a common political cry in recent years, however IME that is a small portion of the cheapest plans for which I believe the workers need to take responsibility. Not to sound harsh but our media portrays this as a common issue and that people cannot get coverage elsewhere. Personally I believe the issue stateside is a rapidly ever-increasing lack of personal responsibility, many like my brother give no thought to consequences so take positions with little/no benefits. I grew up dirt poor so while being unafraid of the free coverage available to everyone here, I really want to hold onto what I have so insure myself accordingly. Your point about potential income being offset by healthcare benefits is valid however many employers see these non-cash benefits as preferable due to our tax code, its a net savings for them to pay healthcare rather than more income.

Quote:

% of GDP IS, however, an indication of how affordable a program is for the country funding it

No, its a rather poor estimate of program sustainability as it does not speak to the average citizen's affordability or contribution, only govt spending. Some countries likely cannot afford to spend 10% of GDP on public health while others can easily spend much more. The fact that the US has a higher GDP/capita considering we also have a higher cost/GDP shows that not only can US citizens afford to spend more they also have more leftover after this spending, which raises the fundamental question - are we really spending more? One fatal flaw in many analyses otherwise is that they rely upon simple currency conversion and don't view cost of living or other factors, we're perpetually comparing apples-oranges.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

@geov86

I will not discuss further with you, you are obviously in a parallel post-truth universe. I have been brainwashed by mainstream media and probably have too much common sense as well.

Regarding genocide, the Jews, the Kurds or the Tutsi's can explain you better what it is than I can. I have yet to see the pile of slaughtered Greek corpses, but for sure you can point me to a web site that has secret pics.

I wish you good luck in your job search and hope you will realise that you are responsible for your own success and happiness, and don't blame other people let alone entire nations if you don't succeed.

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"Geo, yes our private plans are essentially unlimited use with the only significant cost being possible copays for each visit,"

Not mine, which is PPO and pretty good. There are limits such as 1 pair of glasses or year of contacts per year, limits total yearly, and a lifetime cap. There are very few plans that are completely open-ended; it would be silly for the insurance companies to sign up for that sort thing. That's why pre-existing conditions are such a big deal.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@CWB1 : thanks a lot my friend for explaining more about the HC system there. It definitely helped me to gain more insight both in terms of simple knowledge as well as in terms of my future plans. I will have in mind everything you mentioned! smile

@epoisses : I am not trying to convince anybody. I am just telling the story as it is (and in my opinion it was a mistake doing that from the very beginning), whether someone agrees with it or not. Facts are facts! Besides, I do not accuse anyone, instead as I said before, I like and respect every nation and its people, from Ghana to Turkey and Germany. What I do not respect instead is the administrations of the EU states, including ours as well! I hope that your reply (maybe somehow belligerent,unless if I misinterpreted so I apologize in advance), may be due to the fact that you misunderstood my sayings by interpreting that I blame everybody else for our woes! If that is the case then I am really sorry and I got myself clear right above that I don't blame anybody! Finally, regarding the genocide, I won't point anything (rather I will end the discussion here) but it will help,if of course you're interested, to read the vienna convention of the United Nations, and inside you'll find how genocide is defined and its conditions! It's the United Nation and international law, not my opinion!

As for your wish, I would like to cordially thank you, and don't worry, I know very well who I should blame if I do not succeed! But I do not intend to let this happen!

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@IRstuff : Thank you too my friend for your comment. You and CWB1 both helped me a lot in terms of the Healthcare system in the US! smile

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

"you're interested, to read the vienna convention of the United Nations, and inside you'll find how genocide is defined and its conditions! It's the United Nation and international law, not my opinion! "

I don't see anything in Greece that fits that definition.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
@IRStuff : My mistake my friend, wrong treaty!I apologize! It was not the vienna convention, the right one is the "United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide", signed in December 1948 and has been in force since January 1951.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volum...

Also, I think we should come back to the point of the topic again as we sidetracked it a lot!

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

For a bit of levity about the Greek-German relationship, watch the movie "Highway to Hellas".

RE: Migrating to Canada or USA from Greece (Geological/Mining/Metallurgical Engineer)

(OP)
haha I didn't know about this movie. I will definitely watch it for the comedy part!Yet,in reality, most of the movie isn't true. We,as a nation, have nothing bad to say about the Germans when it comes to simple people,and personally me some times I have argued with people doing that (you see every nation has those kind of people). Our problem is with the german government, as it is with our government as well!

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources