Leakproof Pipeline
Leakproof Pipeline
(OP)
Is it possible to construct a pipeline that is reasonably leakproof. Does it have to be exposed, buried, or whatever? The actual construction? materials? single or double wall? monitors for leakage? inspection both during construction and in service? cost? any other issues?
Dik
Dik





RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Everything is possible....
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Just wondering if it is possible to construct a leak proof pipeline and what the issues are.
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
As less flanges as possible is one of the issues.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
The answer is both yes and no.
Yes, IMO, and practically speaking, you can build a leakproof pipeline.
The second question is, "Is it practical?"
No, IMO, , leaving economic practicality aside, if it is practical, it will only be practical for a limited time. Design life and maintenance costs will eventually catch up to practicality of operating it any longer. As has been proven an number of times lately, it is not likely to catch up to corporate greed. Operating life will be extended past design life to the point where maintenance failure overtakes utility.
Third question is, "Is it practical to be operated as a leakproof pipeline?" I think this is the most problematic. If it is practical to build and operate for a limited time, you've got a few other factors to consider as well. Statistically there are three most consequential and very important causes of leaks. If you were always able to maintain complete control of these variables, it might be possible, but the practicality of what that means is, I don't think so. At least not all the time.
Factors
1.) External Corrosion
2.) Instrument and Control Errors (control may involve human factors)
3.) Third Party Damage
4.) Costs of monitoring and correccting all the above, before a leak occurs.
Mitigations
1.) External corrosion difficult to see on a buried pipeline and expensive to repair, if you do manage to locate it in time.
High cost to examine. Errors in prediction of remaining life.
Not buried would subject the pipeline to other more dangerous factors, coating damage? Vandalism .... bullets?, socio-environmental unacceptability, PROPERTY VALUE EFFECTS, etc. Would you really want an above ground pipeline in your neighborhood? Not me, "leakproof" or not. Leak detection... like terorist cameras... are too late to do me any good.
2.) Increased use of instrument and controls is increasingly subject to errors.
Will new technology and increased use improve control, or degrade integrity due to hacking and instrument failures. Accidential overpressures. Human control room response errors. Level and relief valve pressure controls failing more. More complex, expensive, error-prone maintenance.
3.) Third party damage is causing the most loss of life and property damage. There is little control of the situation now. There is a very high cost of protection from this factor. Lots of farmers and road repair crews and sewer installers out there. Offshore, protecting for an anchor dropped in the wrong place and you might be burying 18 ft or more everywhere?
4.) Other factors. How long a pipeline and location. Some things might be far more practical for a short pipeline of 1-10 km, but not practical at all for 1000 km of onshore or offshore.
I add
5.) Regional security. Leakproof and terrorist activities aren't exactly compatible under any circumstances. All PRACTICAL terrorist defences of pipelines of normal length effectively say that protecting pipelines from terrorist, or extreme vandalism is impossible from a practical standpoint. It is recognised that high cost of military patrols necessary to prevent leaks and response times allow effective protection only at high profile nodes of delivery hubs, terminals. Pump stations may or may not be included. Protecting every km of pipeline joint and emergency valve stations along the root 24/7 just is not practical.
So, consider those factors and the cost of mitigations and I think you might be able to get away without leaks for a relatively short time. The answer is probably, "Yes. Theoretically you can build a leakproof pipeline, but the practicality of the situation is, NO, or, Only for a limited time.
There's probably more I'll think of later.
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
The most leak proof pipeline I've ever seen was a 12" high pressure ( 70 bar) gas pipeline which ran 3km along a beach front road where hundreds if not thousands of people could be present on a nice summers day.
This line was buried with 2 to 2.5m cover (extra depth is good for risk reduction), had a coloured red concrete slab on top projecting out beyond what a digger could reach, was 19.1mm thick ( much more than required for pressure containment), had a fibre optic cable above that so that any digging which breached it alarmed with a location. That was 20 years ago and now you would make that FO cable act as an intruder / third party pro active detection system. Every weld was x rayed and the whole thing hydrotested to a high level (105% SMYS). Standard 3LPP coating and cathodic protection system.
The pipeline could be internally inspected so any external corrosion ( it was dry sales gas so no internal corrosion) could be monitored on a 3-5 year basis.
The only extra thing they could have done was make it a true pipe in pipe double containment where inner pipe failure wouldn't escape and also the outer pipe would act as extra protection, but I think that was seen as really going too far.
Cost was about 3-5 times "normal" pipeline length but the alternatives were even more costly as involved complex drills and a longer length.
Now that's about as "leak proof" as you can "reasonably" get IMHO.
Otherwise BI has the basics nailed - yes feasible especially for short small diameter lines, large long distance lines - not economic.
Remember - More details = better answers
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RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Great replies, in particular Big Inch, a lot of effort went into both replies.
My son asked me if it was possible to design a pipeline that was leakproof... and, I couldn't give him an answer. I knew it was possible to construct one that was nearly leakproof, and, that as more effort went into it (and cost) the chances of it leaking were diminished. I didn't know if buried, or exposed was better and I didn't know what construction would be involved for the actual piping. I thought properly welded would be better than bolted, but, wasn't sure. Part of the issue, I guess, is assigning a maximum life expectancy with necessary inspections. I don't know how they are inspected. For small pipes, a small robot going down the pipe, X-raying welds?
again, thanks Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
buried better than above ground
deeper you bury it the better
Welded better than flanged,
Thicker better than thinner
extra things in the way to stop someone digging it up
Sensors / cables to detect someone digging
All cost more than normal.
Internal inspection is intelligent pigs - look them up
One of these bad boys
Remember - More details = better answers
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RE: Leakproof Pipeline
https://www.nace.org/uploadedFiles/Committees/SP01...
Pretty good file on inspections...
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
However, in the majority of the cases, there will more likely be cries of "gold-plated pipes," and, "when are we getting our investment back," than any concern about an infrequent, and usually, low-cost, event. While we don't like to think about the life and death costs of everything we do, buy, or use, they are there, buried on some spreadsheet, in some archive. The bottom line is that we cannot afford to make everything literally bulletproof, so we live with those risks, even though the average Joe is completely unaware of the risks and costs thereof that someone has assigned to him.
We treat risks asymmetrically, and disproportionately, anyway. We're more concerned about terrorist attacks in the US, even though they've killed fewer people in the 16 years since 9/11 than the death toll from 2 months of traffic fatalities. We willingly and blindly ignore the risks of dying in our cars, even when presented the data, over and over. People continue to text while driving, even on the freeway, despite repeated warnings. Do we or should we allow Darwin to deal with those people?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Not a totally supportable assertion IMHO.
Google "Hanford" for examples of what an unlimited budget cannot do.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
1.) Pipelines are already installing the components necessary to use the inspection pigs LI pictured above in all new regulated pipelines and over the next 20 years or so for old pipelines.
2.) There are One Call programs operating in every state that contractors should call before digging. More could always be done to educate contractors, as that is critical and ... a never ending battle.
3.) A regulation requiring excess flow shutoff valves is being contemplated, but they won't activate until after a break or leak occurs.
4.) A new federal regulation to extend regulatory authority to include a number of rural and some other pipelines that have not been previously regulated is being contemplated. Pipeline companies and
tradelobbyist organizations have commented during the regulatory process that they are against this provision. That is not surprising, especially given the current political climate. Yet they were not anywhere to be seen when this Plains All American Pipeline Co pipeline leaked 140,000 gal. That pipeline is offshore, yet in state waters and apparently not included within the federal regulatory program, falling into a regulatory black hole between federal and state waters. Recently sold between two companies, neither one apparently knowing what its operational state was at the time and eventually finding out the hard way that it was actually pretty damn poor.2015 California offshore pipeline leak
I think that public opinion is so bad at the moment that, no matter what the cost, certain things will have to change. Frankly most pipeline companies are great money makers and can afford to play the game no matter what the house rules are, so drain the swamp, build some safe pipelines and pump out what's left.
What I would like to know...
Is it my imagination, or does the rest of the world's pipelines appear to be safer. Is it that the USA simply has so many more pipelines? I don't think for the most part there is any essential differences in design. Codes are the same ASME as the US, nearly exact copies, or very similar. So, for example, are European pipelines constructed better? Operated better? Inspected better? Maintained better. All the above, or is it just my imagination.
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
I vote imagination; I think the rest of the world does not play by the same set of rules as the US. Things are less transparent and people don't expect to survive certain things that are a given in the US, nor do they have the same level of influence on regulations.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
It could just be the sheer number and length of pipelines in the US.
However there is something to it I think.
Non US pipeline codes whilst using B31.4/8 as their base add in manufacturing pipe tolerance and, in general, are a bit more conservative.
In Europe and many other countries, the national Gas network started life as government owned companies and naturally tended to a "safer" design and also spent money on maintence and inspection. The root of the magnetic pig design came from the study centre of the UK gas industry where they developed the technology when it was a govt funded business.
when you add in the age of much of the US pipeline network compared to the ROW. the increase in steel quality over time and a higher population density meaning risks need to be lower to be acceptable then overall I suspect the US does have a higher incident rate. That's certainly the impression....
"Things are less transparent and people don't expect to survive certain things that are a given in the US, nor do they have the same level of influence on regulations"
Hmmm, Maybe in Africa and parts of Asia, but not in Europe.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
I think what makes the biggest difference is that, if a textile factory, or a pipeline blows up and people get killed in Russia, Pakistan, China, India, Indonesia, Bangladesh and many other countries, FIRST they put the owner in jail, then they sort out over the next few months. If the boss is guilty in China, maybe he gets whacked.
Maybe foreign pipe mfg and coating and corrosion control procedures are better.
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
A little off subject, but this was a case in point. $ 190MM apparently though how much ever got to the front line is not available.... https://business-humanrights.org/en/trafigura-laws...
They did imprison the chief Exec for a while when he went to visit.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"You've posted a lot. What brings this question?" just curious, and, couldn't answer my son's question (and I thought I knew everything <G>). It, however, was a good question.
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
https://youtu.be/BKryeX6vH6A
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
I was going through the responses and came across the following:
"Sorry, not so sure what are the questions.
Everything is possible...."
It being a slow day, I realised that you imply that "Nothing is Impossible"... and then had the thought, "Ever try to get off a mailing list?"
The pipeline repair thread is also pretty good. Have a great day...
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
did the stamp cost more?
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop visas for robots.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
PROBLEM: VERY EXPENSIVE, esp for long pipelines.
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
BigInch... cost, although an issue, has too often resulted in 'skimpy' designs and subsequent failures. It's an issue, albeit, a minor one.
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
It is essentially a leak detection process, not a preventative system.
Such systems actually encourage corrosion because the outer surface of the inner pipe is not protected by your cathodic protection system which actively prevents corrosion.
If you don't make the outer pipe pressure containing, then the stuff in the inner pipe still comes out, especially if a major fault develops.
Then it starts to cost an awful lot more than 25% more.
The ability now of fibre optic cable detection systems far outstrips this student project. They really do prevent leaks by warning of land movements, 3rd party interference and also detect a leak with pin point accuracy. They are not cheap, but pays dividends in the long run.
Combine it with a well executed internal inspection system every 5 years and then doing something about the things it finds and you're a long way towards your goal of no leaks and no harm the environment.
A well designed, well installed and well inspected pipeline is the safest and cheapest means of transporting fluids long distances. The key is the "well" bit.
Yes, the issue of risk vs reward will always appear. The Chad Cameroon pipeline had and maybe still has the same issues - Chad gets all the revenue and Cameroon, which has 3/4 of the length of the export pipeline, was only getting cents per barrel until very recently. Oil companies hate paying per barrel extra tariffs so this sort of arrangement is not common, but is one way of sharing the risk reward issues around.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Pipe-in-pipe has it's issues as well. Temperature differences between inside and outside pipes mean compression inside, tension outside, or maybe the reverse in summer. Sometimes the component pipes need to be prestressed before welding up. You can see that pipe-in-pipe involves welding the inside pipe together with the outside pipe ... at each end. Just trimming and keeping that end dimensioning tolerance while welding is difficult. Now do the same to the next length of pipe-in-pipe. You've made 8 welds already; an inside weld and an outside weld at both ends for two pipe lengths already now. Now hold those two lengths together and weld them to each other. AS you can see, when I said expensive, I meant expensive. 25% more? NO WAY! I meant Project-Killing expensive. This is large diameter. Say tripple the usual single wall pipe cost, the outside pipe is larger, otherwise I would have simply doubled it. 10x more for welds alone. QA/QC, Shipping handling. Carrying cost of the much longer construction time will be huge. I was thinking at least 5 times as expensive. Gateway has two parallel large diameter - pipelines. What's the estimated cost of Gateway now, 6 billion, 8 billion, 10B? OK now call them up and tell them it's going to cost them 30-50 BILLION and let me know how the rest of that conversation goes. I think they'll be looking at exporting via Keystone before end of business today. No worries, that's the best outcome for BC. If that's what you want, might be a good strategy to ask for pipe-in-pipe.
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
https://www.aucsc.com/_aucsc%20speaker%20files/Pip...
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
The water mains seem much more prone to failure and there have been some major bursts causing serious damage to houses.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
I find it astonishing it took until 1994 for new pipelines to be piggable as part of the regulations and that gas pipelines has liquid in them(!!)
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Agree with BI - can be a very long time. Gas pipelines can end up being restricted by fatigue and the daily pressure variations causing stress fluctuations, but in most pipelines this is 50 years plus.
The coating has a finite life and is often the first thing to start causing issues and increased number of external corrosion holes which need repair.
One thing though - the high pressure network in the UK is no longer odourised. The odour is now put in at the pressure let down stations before it goes to domestic customers but things like high pressure transmisison lines and pipelines to power stations have no odour.
The helicopter is for spotting infringements on the pipeline easement and any construction work on or close to the pipeline which was not previously notified. Sometimes they use infrared cameras to spot any area of lower temperature which can indicate a small leak as the gas cools a lot from high pressure to ambient air pressure and shows up as a cold spot.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
I'm approaching my 70th with 45+ years of experience, and, have never lost my childhood curiosity. I'm a bit of a techno packrat. When I come across interesting 'stuff' I pass it on... always done that. I'm at the end of my career and my main purpose is to act as a mentor for younger engineers. We have a senior engineer in the office and I went to school with his dad.
No fear of becoming oilfield trash; I know my limitations. Last time I did any indepth review was for thermal siphon piles, a suggestion on how to fix a pipeline that suffered from premafrost thaw. Other than that, I've never worked with pipelines... prior to this posting, I had no idea of what a pig was '(sheltered life); I'd never heard the term.
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
That's ok, not many do. Just remember it's a name. If anyone EVER tries to tell you it stands for Pipeline Inspection Guage then immediately discount any other pipeline related material to come out of them.
Some environmental engineer somewhere decided to include it in an ESIA or non technical summary and it's just grown a life of its own since then. It doesn't, it never has and it never will.
/rant over
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
You need to call them "scrapers" in the Middle East just in case anyone takes offence....
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Just finished that article on pigz and had no idea there were so many different types...
Dik
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Thanks for the information about pipeline life expectancy. I also did not know about UK gas not being odourised in the primary network anymore. How would they find a leak if/when external corrosion starts to be an issue and how big would it need to be before it could be detected - much of the pipeline runs through farm land?
When I started work in 1970 the place I served my time at, (International Combustion in Derby), was very busy with North Sea gas work. Mostly rig leg nodes and gas tees plus pig traps. That type of work was a good fit with their main business as boiler makers
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
The oderizer is mercaptan which contains small amounts of H2S -(forms poisonous, rotten egg smellling and corrosive gas), so H2S is not someting we want in great quantities running around and sticking to the walls of hundreds of thousands of miles of high pressure gas pipelines, so it is left to the last possible point to inject it where the public absolutely needs to be able to detect leaks without the use of complicated equipment that never seems to have its battery charged when you need it.
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
Never heard that particularry British twist on the legend, but I like it. Are you sure it wasn't just a pig's bladder running through the drain pipes. Just saying I find it hard to buy the eating their way out bit, given that pigs do have a finite volume to their stomachs nowhere near what I imagine, has the London sewers. It would take one-heck-of-a-lotta pigs, which I'm sure someone in the middle ages would far rather have seen on their dinner table.
"He's declaring war on the planet itself."- Vicente Fox
RE: Leakproof Pipeline
The squealing of rubber or leather, especially in gas or air is much more likely.
The other thing about it not being a name but an acronym (it isn't) is that the vast majority of pigs don't inspect anything - they just clean or try and separate.
For separation of products in a pipeline they actually don't do very much at all. I used to work at a multi-product pipeline company who did tests between inserting spheres and pigs to separate batches and no sphere or pig.
They found it made no difference and actually stirred up deposits and basically stopped using them for that purpose. Much of the interface was actually the time taken to open one valve and close the other in the inlet manifold and the mixing of product in the manifold.
Derby Loco - How big - the high pressure system will show up a small hole a lot faster than the low pressure stuff in your street, which is odourised. The change happened in the UK because gas in Europe was never odourised in the high pressure system and when the interconnector between UK and Europe started operation, the UK was exporting gas so they had to change to meet the spec and then had to install hundreds of small odourisation plants at the main offtakes. Helicopter surveys using infrared can find them and the regular ( 5 - 7 year) internal inspections either spot the hole or should identify it before it gets to that point.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.