When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
(OP)
A landlord owns several large warehouses in my area, with long-term tenants. The landlord keeps the buildings in good shape, and is proactive in upgrading and maintaining the roofs, wall envelope etc.
He recently upgraded the roof drainage system, providing new 6" Ø PVC pipes to remove roof gutter water, and routed the vertical pipes through the warehouse and then laterally through the two perimeter internal PEMB tapered steel columns.
For some reason (money I assume) he hired the local 'butcher' and not the local experienced fabricator, who proceeded to use a 5" grinder to cut a 8.5" ø hole in the web of the column, so as to install a pipe-segment reinforcement which was to be welded to the web after installation.
The hack-job resulted in gaps of 1"+ around the scribed 'cut', as follows:


A welder he is NOT!
He recently upgraded the roof drainage system, providing new 6" Ø PVC pipes to remove roof gutter water, and routed the vertical pipes through the warehouse and then laterally through the two perimeter internal PEMB tapered steel columns.
For some reason (money I assume) he hired the local 'butcher' and not the local experienced fabricator, who proceeded to use a 5" grinder to cut a 8.5" ø hole in the web of the column, so as to install a pipe-segment reinforcement which was to be welded to the web after installation.
The hack-job resulted in gaps of 1"+ around the scribed 'cut', as follows:


A welder he is NOT!






RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Oh well, if there's not enough time to do it right the first time there's always more than enough time to do it right the second.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
i'm surprised they considered sleeving the penetration and drain at all.
This makes me think about how there really should be an open thread where people post their most FUBAR construction photos on this site. i might get one going but there are so many good choices.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
A couple of previous posts suggest that a pipe penetrating the web is a no-no but that will depend on the circumstances.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
99.99% would make them one of the more conservative PEMB engineers. I've heard 103% is pretty standard.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
No, that column has no strength left, no vibration or fatigue resistance. And now an increased irregular load.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
hohie66 - ain't that the truth.
Backstory: PEMB designed and constructed in mid 80's. I am not involved with the original nor current engineering/design of this building or repair, however, a PE who is a friend of mine is a friend of the building owner. You see where this is going! Building owner says to PE that he HAS to re-route the piping and CANNOT loose any net lease space so wishes to cut a SMALL hole in the column web. I believe the PE did a sketch or two of the proposed hole size and reinforcement, and expected that a competent fabricator/welder would undertake the work. Fast forward to where we are today - I get a call from PE to see if I can "take a look at the column" because I am pretty handy with a welder - I go take a look and see this monster! I was expecting a neat field flame-cut edge, with a weld that I may have to 'resurrect'...walking away, shaking my head...
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
A typical US tapered steel column in a frame, light vertical loading, CMU/block perimeter walls - like a "portal frame" in AU, but in the US the design is done by the PEMB (pre-engineered metal building) company and they often use built-up members and seldom use UB/WF haunches at column/rafter connections, like is done in AU.
Maybe a market for cellular/castellated column sections to accommodate building owners and their 'butchers'
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Granted, you theoretically have a "crack" starting right at the root of the weld, but maybe practically you end up with enough incidental weld penetration to mitigate that.
----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
KootK: Yes, bending about the long't axis of the weld was my concern.
Lo: I guess when you only have 5/32" of thickness to work with.
Just looks 'off-putting' - but not as 'off' as the web hole
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
The single sided welding issue is addressed in Newman's "Metal Building Systems Design and Specification" in the section "Some Contention Issues of Design and Fabrication."
The general thrust seems to be that some people don't like it, but testing seems to show that it's generally okay with an exception of a specific seismic case.
"According to a test program performed by Prof. Thomas M. Murray, single sided welds do not reduce the ultimate structural capacity of the primary frames, except in the end-plate connections where seismic loading is involved. The simulation of cyclic seismic forces in the test program produced repeated local buckling, which resulted in fracture of the single sided welds in the frame rafters near the end plates. Some feel that single sided welding may be acceptable for static loads but not for frames subjected to lateral forces, concentrated loading or fatigue, where double sided welds should be used. Naturally, most rigid frames must resist both gravity and lateral loads."
Since the description of the item that was seeing failure is confusing, I chased the references. See this letter from Dr. Murray, which gives more context (first letter on the page):
https://www.aisc.org/globalassets/modern-steel/arc...
His letter is in response to this article,
https://www.aisc.org/globalassets/modern-steel/arc...
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
They're beginning to realize that this may not just be an issue for HSS shapes, it's just that not many people have really tested them outside of HSS connections. Not saying that I know what's going to come of all this. I just want to add a caveat about this type of weld and why "some people don't like them" as you say. The theory (as KootK suggests) is that bending / torque about the long axis of the weld may be a problem when the connection is in tension.
Now, this connection one-sided connection weld may not be bad because it may be pure shear. So, I'm not wholly disagreeing with your comments. Just offering some caution about this type of weld.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I have Newman's 1997 edition and could not find this section - what edition is this in, TLHS?
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
The discussion was, as I understood, about flange to web welds. I would agree that welds that see significant tension should be on both sides. So, barring research to the contrary, if there's a point tension load on the lower flange, I would expect that the eccentricity of the weld would result in a strength loss from the resulting moment. For example, I'd never weld a shear plate on the column side on just one side.
Personally, I also wouldn't weld a web to a flange on just one side, but I have trouble calling it bad practice.
Ingenuity,
My copy is the second edition (2003), so perhaps yours doesn't include it? In mine, it's at the end of Chapter 16 "Avoiding Construction Problems"
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Welding from one side for thin material is not unsafe. The weld is substantially subjected to shear and the distances are usually far enough apart to resist any flexural moment issue. For thicker web members, the issue becomes a little more murky.
There is economy in only welding from one side, albeit small, but if you manufacture a kazillion of them, the savings adds up.
Unless I have tension issues, I detail base plates so that the fillet weld can be made without 'flipping' the column; the fillet weld is on one side only. Again, a small savings, but, a savings nonetheless.
In the second paper, there was a discussion about how a fabricator can be more competitive with PEMB's... I don't think it's possible since a PEMB manufacturer designs everything to the limit for cost effectiveness. If a fabricator were to take the same approach he would become a PEMB manufacturer and no longer a fabricator.
I think of PEMB's as 'throwaway' buildings, and after 25 or so years are good for scrap (I know there are a lot older). They have limited use except for an initial enclosure. I work with a lot of industrial buildings, and it is not easy to modify them or analyse them. I generally advise the client to stay away from them.
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
While Murray's research findings are very convincing, one of Nawrocki's salient points was that of the flanges getting knocked away altogether under forklift impact. That still strikes me as a valid criticism. That said, perhaps once you're down to to a 5/16" web and a 1/4" flange, you've got that same problem regardless of how you prosecute the welding.
While I've been somewhat skeptical of this particular PEMB practice here as a result of my own ignorance, I should clarify that I hold the PEMB industry, and it's more skilled practitioners, in high regard. As with any field, the worst of them are terrible. But the best of them are pretty much steel design maestros in my experience. And their product generally does a great job of meeting the requirements of the clients, irrespective of the ire of the renovators that sometimes come later.
@Ingenuity: for your viewing pleasure... It is from the second edition should you be interested in acquiring a copy.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Thanks. My 1997 Edition has the chapter "Avoiding Construction Problems" but no reference to single-sided welding.
Thanks. I notice there is now a 3rd Edition. Added to my wish-list.
I wish it was 5/16"...this one is only 5/32"!
A Cat 980 loader is a 'beast' in the hands of an operator.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I've seen operators of similar loaders destroy everything and anything in a building. It's next to impossible to build an enclosed structure for those to operate in without having to rely on the operator's skill to not damage the structure. If they don't care if something is destroyed (or want to destroy it in the case of what I saw; a disgruntled worker) they will destroy it, hot rolled or not.
But, I agree with KootK's original point; I'd much rather see a double-sided weld with smaller equipment such as a forklift or similar (or armor the column). I'm sure everyone has seen a column flange all bent out of shape at a facility operating forklifts, I would imagine it wouldn't take much to rip off the flange on a single sided weld.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I decided to drop by the subject warehouse on Friday and see how the repair of the 'hack-job' worked out. Not sure if the same 'butcher' returned to fix his/her handy work, or if the owner found another 'welder'.
Nothing like a coat of paint to cover over welds that look like "pigeon poo".
The welder must like using off-cuts from his/her shop floor - cause they sure used a bunch on this job.
FYI - the price of a 2' x 4' x 1/4" A36 plate (that would have been enough material to reinforce two webs (18" depth x 18" long at 2 hole locations) and on both faces) from one local steel merchant is $65! I know some of the welds are out-of-position but why on earth would you add all those tabs and off-cuts?
For reference, the existing tapered webs are 5/32" thick, and the flanges are 1/4" thick. The new 'profiled' web plates (I use that loosely 'cause the profile cut is not really 'profiled' nor straight) are about 5/16" thick.
Enjoy!
Photo 1: Looking up the web:
Photo 2: Looking face-on to web - note the tabs, and off-cuts:
Photo 3: More tabs and off-cuts:
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
It is a warehouse for school book storage, so water leaks are a big deal - besides the detrimental effect on the steel base plates and anchor rods.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
I also understand the initial modifications were made without the involvement of an engineer. It would appear "price" was more important than "quality". There are lessons to be learned from this post.
The Owner and the engineer involved should verify the individual hired is qualified to perform the work in accordance to a drawing produced by an engineer. Let's face it, an competent engineer is needed to design and to provide a drawing or sketch of what must be done to maintain the integrity of the structural member and structure. I understand the owner is the party paying the bills and has a legal responsibility to ensure the structure is safe. The engineer has a responsibility to verify his design is properly executed. To that end, I would like to think the engineer would assist the owner to verify the individual hired to execute the repair was qualified to perform the work per the drawings. All little "ground work" up front can save everyone a lot of headaches later.
How much effort is required to request a copy of the welder's qualification papers and a copy of the WPS the welder would be using to execute the welds?
Whatever money was saved by hiring two "hacks" to execute the initial repair and the subsequent repair had to have been more than the cost of bring in a competent welder to begin with. The competent welder would have asked to see and would have followed drawings provided by an engineer. Few welders that understand the liability that is involved will simply forge ahead with a cutting torch in one hand and a electrode holder in the other without drawings to show what needs to be done.
Just my thoughts after reading the post and looking at the photographs.
Best regards - Al
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
You are absolutely correct in that "low quote" was the sole basis for selecting the repairs.
The PE (not original EoR) has known the owner for decades and knowing the 'cheapness' of the owner (and more importantly, the incompetence of his contractor) took it upon himself to get a cost estimate for the latest repairs using qualified and competent fabricators - the price was $3k total, for two column web hole repairs. When the PE presented the cost estimate to the owner, the owner freaked out (literally 'shouting and screaming') and said he will 'take care of it' - and the above photos depicts what "low quotes" get you.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Maybe in NC, not in HI!
Access is not great - 36" of space behind vertical storage racking filled with books. If you are bigger than 6' or 200 lb you would not be able to access the two columns.
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Best regards - Al
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Do you think these 'welds' were done using SMAW or FCAW process? I assumed it was SMAW and the 'user' had issues with electrode position and welding settings.
Thoughts?
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
It would be interesting to know whether the person even took the time to remove the paint in the areas to be welded or if a cutting torch was used to prepare the plates and whether the dross was removed from the cut edges before attempting to weld.
The type of steel used for prefab structures usually call for low hydrogen electrodes. I doubt the proper electrodes were used. Just because the electrode says E7018 on one end doesn't mean it is low hydrogen if it wasn't stored properly.
It is probably a good bet SMAW was used, especially if the work was performed in tight quarters. However, Home Depot and Loew's sell some pretty inexpensive GMAW/FCAW machines that make "anyone a welder". Just pull the trigger and poof - weld is deposited. At least that's what some people believe.
It looks like the work was done by an employee that owns a welding machine and sticks things together on the weekends. The "boss" probably had him come in over the weekend to perform the work for a little "extra overtime."
We'll never know the end of the story until there a good storm blowing and there is a news story of a partial collapse. With some luck, the building will stay intact and no one will get hurt. It is fortune the owner has a friend that took enough interest to look the work over and attempt to address the problem. There is just so much one can do when "stupid" people are involved. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it wear a bikini."
One last comment; was the building department ever informed of this situation? There is a roll to be played by the building official when safety is involved.
Best regards - Al
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
among other issues... as I noted, I'm not a good welder, but a lot better than what was produced... looks like the guy went down to Canadian Tire (or the American Eq) and picked up a welder and decided to 'give it a try'.
Dik
RE: When a landlord uses a 'butcher' not a welder to modify a PEMB column
Thank you for your detailed reply.
Pretty sure there was no permit from the city building department.
I agree. Which ironically is what I did about 1 tear ago - purchased a $999 Lincoln 210 MP welder (FCAW/GMAW/SMAW processes) - but I restricted 'my learning' to an in-house 'ships ladder' to my warehouse mezzanine:
My welds were better looking than the 'hack' work of this thread - but I did learn some quick lessons on distortion with welding.