×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?
4

Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I think I remember reading about a licensing kerfluffle in Nevada, where a then new law said your application to be a licensed beautician or something had to be approved by a licensed beautician or whatever, but nobody could get a license because there were no pre-licensed people available to sign the licenses.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

On the other hand, I don't mean to make light of the issue. Here in SoFla, we get pretty regular arrests of people doing dentistry, cosmetic surgery, and more without benefit of a license or even related training.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

That's hilarious, since these guys are supposedly for self-regulation by industry, but they (the government) want to have final say on regulations?

These governors seem to forget that unfettered business was why places like LA had Stage 3 smog alerts, and why there were clustered cases of leukemia in San Jose and other cities. They work for the people, not unfettered business; they should that tattooed on themselves as part of the oath of office.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I'm exceptionally liberal but I can't help but agree with the governor. Licensing boards should exist to protect individual/human safety and nothing else. Unions, regulations and the free market can sufficiently control for everything else. Try getting the lawyers who run things to agree with that though.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

JAE,

One hopes that engineers can explain why they need to licensed.

--
JHG

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Seems like a bit of showboating. In California, there is an actual LAW on the books that sanctions the PE board, and the raison d'etre is stated in the first paragraph. All the governor needs to do is to get his staff to read the law as written. He can believe the rationale or not, but it's already written and published.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

If that what it takes to make sure they don't infect you with lice or athlete's foot fungus, then maybe yes. Typical cosmetology programs take slightly less than a year to complete.

California calls for 1600 hr class and 3200 apprenticeship. Given that it takes more than book learning to be good at styling hair, it doesn't sound completely unreasonable.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

frankly, if a hairdresser is lousy at cutting hair, they will not be in business long. and did anybody ever get injured by a bad haircut? Seems like this is one profession that can be regulated by the marketplace, not by bureaucrats. as far as foot fungus, shouldnt there be inspections to make sure that the facility is clean?

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

" did anybody ever get injured by a bad haircut"

It happens, both physically, and mentally. Mostly, it's lice and general unsanitary practices.

"shouldnt there be inspections to make sure that the facility is clean"

Does anyone seriously think that the government is any better at inspection? We've cut back on inspections, even for more important things like our restaurants and our food supply. The cost of maintaining a licensing board is substantially lower than paying for a bunch of inspectors that have to cover the state of California, or Texas. We're not even willing to fund the number of IRS agents to retrieve actual money, and there's no additional money to be gained from inspections.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I dont follow. are you saying that if you make a hairdresser take two years of tech school and then make them pay for a license, they will only work in clean salons?

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

And you'd get a clean hairdresser and working environment with 6 months of classes, wham, bam, thank you?

Doctor's require a minimum of 3 yrs on the job training. These guys are going to get almost as close to your skin and innards; I think a little bit of supervised training is in order.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

A while ago, I was sitting in a barber chair when a guy came in and made a field test on the little tank of Barbasol, used to clean clippers and scissors. The barber admitted to having cut it with water to save money. I think the fine cost him more than he saved. I was a little glad to see that _some_ inspection was going on.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

2
As a licensed engineering in Arizona, I have been watching this fairly closely ever since the barber student cut homeless people's hair for free. If you haven't seen that article, that's how this whole thing started. A cosmetology student decided to give free haircuts to homeless people. Because he hadn't graduated yet, and because he wasn't licensed, the Cosmetology Board made an inquiry. Of course, the news (mainly social media) blew it completely out of proportion, claiming the Board already fined and prevented this student from ever getting a license. In reality, the Board was performing the required inquiry about unlicensed practice. They didn't even have time to collect the facts of the situation before the media was making claims. I have to agree with the Board because even a homeless guy should have his hair cut with clean scissors.

So the governor decided to make all licensing boards review their charters, more or less, including the Board of Technical Registration (which licenses engineers, surveyors, and home inspectors). The purpose of the review is to make sure the regulations in which the Boards follow do not exceed the national average. In areas in which the regulations are more strict than the national average, the Board has to justify the reason for being so strict or to revise the regulation to match the national average.

The purpose of the review is to make sure more individuals are capable of getting a job - obtaining a license should not be the reason a capable person cannot be employed due to unreasonable requirements of licensure. Also, the governor hopes to continue to make Arizona very business friendly, so more organizations will continue to do business here.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Re hairdressers, are you all forgetting the nasty chemicals used in processes like hair straightening, bleaching and dying? Then there's the toxic fumes from Brazilian blow outs and the like.

So yes cvg people have been quite seriously injured by bad hair cuts and the like.

Some hair dressers (i.e. Voters) are probably as ignorant about why engineers need to be licensed as some of us seem to be about hairdressers needing to be.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

By that logic there is not a single job or profession that should not require a license.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

"yep, licensing will definitely prevent this"

By that line of reasoning, PEs shouldn't be licensed, since that won't prevent all the failures cited in this forum.

As stated elsewhere, licensing provides a minimum level of competency, but people still need to be policed, because people are neither perfect nor perfectly good.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

@CheckerHater,

I actually found that to be a sorry application of very good laws meant to protect the public. He was not practicing engineering nor selling services to the public under false pretenses. He made a claim that he's an electronics engineer, which I've seen no reason to doubt. Like it or not, there are myriad job titles with the word 'engineer' in them, many of which not regulated by state boards. How many mechanical engineers practice actual engineering without a state license?

To fine him and go after him with legal action is just ludicrous. $500 seems like it's on the very-low end of the scale of fines from what I read of people getting slapped with unlicensed practice, but maybe in Oregon that's not abnormal. I still find it to be a silly application of the law.

He apparently used his job title (current or former, I don't know) to attempt to establish some sort of mathematical analysis acumen before launching into his data analysis. I don't have anything against it. I would think anyone would do similar when introducing themselves prior to such discourse, whether it be a physics teacher, statistics professor, or engineering professor. It's just establishing some sort of context that may make the reader more likely to give the reasoning weight.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

@JNieman,

This is exactly the point.
Every normal person would see the situation the way you described it, except... people who's job is to protect the integrity of engineering profession.

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Ah, I understand you, now. I completely misread the "tone" of your "what licencing boards are good for" statement. Plus I was probably biased after getting into a discussion with a couple friends just last night about this issue, who were wholly on the "he said the word engineer, he has to be licensed!" side, completely supporting the Oregon board. The two friends aren't even engineers.

That said, I am very happy the boards do exist. Humans will make mistakes, and I'm one of the first to be bitter about 'beaurocratic' effects in offices, but I wouldn't dare suggest the abolishing of the public protections afforded by licensing boards and enforced standards. I would not want to live in the USA that existed before engineering codes and regulations, most of which were lessons won via loss of lives.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I guess the question is "if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted?" Who will check the checker? smile

Maybe occasional government intervention like described in OP is not entirely bad thing?

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Agreed.

Simply asking the question or auditing efficacy is not, imo, a sign that someone wishes to do away with good regulation. Periodic evaluation, so long as it's done with a level head, is necessary. Especially when it's an organization serving the public.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Quote:

I would not want to live in the USA that existed before engineering codes and regulations, most of which were lessons won via loss of lives.

Having grown up in rural America which our country predominantly is to this day, I often wonder what if any difference to the general public regulation and code would make today. Realistically, many (most?) areas are still not subject to building inspections and even highly regulated areas have their share of "criminals" successfully finding ways around regulation without major disasters occurring. While I have no issue with licensing or other regulation if data proves its worthwhile, I don't believe any of it is data-driven as it should be but rather is fear and greed driven as much of politics is.

OTOH, I firmly believe that our profession has done a remarkable job over the past few centuries of refining and standardizing materials, components, and techniques that have had the huge impact I believe you are attributing elsewhere.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Oregon has no industrial exemption: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.060 and as such is a very restrictive state when it comes to calling yourself an engineer.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I grew up, and currently again, reside, in rural America. Given some of the places I've worked, I'm quite familiar with areas that don't "have to" comply with modern building codes. However, the normalization and expectations that places do... has yielded voluntary compliance. I expect the lack of mandatory inspections would surprise most of rural Americans. There is an /expectation/ that buildings comply with modern standards - especially those of us in tornado country. Having most new construction held to established standards and codes means that the rest will stand out and likely subject to civil litigation without much of a leg to stand on, if they don't follow suit.

St Louis City, however, just recently found out why boiler inspections and codes are vital: http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/06/us/st-louis-boiler-e...

The State of Missouri requires inspections of pressure vessels periodically but for reasons I don't know, leaves STL City exempt from that requirement. They simply require there be an engineer 'on duty' if they run boilers, which they did.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

The relationship between the city of St Louis and the rest of Missouri is a strange and complex one. To see one aspect of that, just look at a map of the greater St Louis area and note that the city is ringed by a larger number of much smaller CITIES. Not villages or towns, but fully incorporated, albeit very small, CITIES. These CITIES were established in the this manner so as to restrain St Louis from becoming any larger than it already was. They literally "fenced them in". But keeping these small CITIES viable is very expensive since each city has to duplicate all the services that a fully incorporated city must provide in order to maintain their status as a real city. This has led to unintended consequences which from time to time are exposed in ways that end-up on the 11:00 news or the front pages of the nations newspapers. Just think of Ferguson, MO and the problems that they had there a few years ago and how it was that they happened in the first place.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Perhaps Missouri is not as enlightened as is California winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

If you don't think they should prevent people from falsely claiming to be engineers, what about doctors?

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I don't think anyone is saying people should be able to falsely claim they're an engineer. Unless I missed a post somewhere.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

Quote:

I grew up, and currently again, reside, in rural America. Given some of the places I've worked, I'm quite familiar with areas that don't "have to" comply with modern building codes. However, the normalization and expectations that places do... has yielded voluntary compliance. I expect the lack of mandatory inspections would surprise most of rural Americans.

I would wager that far more urban/suburban Americans would be surprised by the lack of oversight common in our heartlands than rural folks living it, and many would find it unbelievable. I always get a giggle when I tell someone of plans to remodel or build a garage and their first concern is permitting or inspections, neither has been a valid concern for most of my life and my worst experiences with building construction have been in highly regulated areas. JMO but I believe most folks' sense of acceptable minimum quality has far more to do with most buildings meeting code than the actual regulation does, many Americans might shop at Walmart but are a bit more picky when it comes to major purchases. There will always be occasions of bad things happening, I simply believe that the doomsday scenarios speculating on an un/less regulated world to be vastly overblown.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

I hear you.

I built a fence in my backyard. No one cares. (tornadoes, and rural)

When I lived in Louisiana, it would require a permit and design review (hurricanes, but in large city)

I think we'd see far more industrial accidents if regulations go away. I have known far too many plant managers and maintenance engineers who only barely, begrudgingly, allowed budget for basic safety and inspection investments. To think what they would do (and get away with) when someone isn't able to slap codes/laws/standards in their face...

I suppose I think less of the potential of humans for negligence than you. Not a doomsday scenario, but certainly something I see making civilization less civilized.

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

"I simply believe that the doomsday scenarios speculating on an un/less regulated world to be vastly overblown."

People don't seem to learn, so I'd believe in a heartbeat that if the EPA crippled the Clean Air Act, we'd be seeing as bad a smog as they have in China right now. In fact, China should be a poster child for unfettered business run amuck. Even when people know that if what they're doing gets bad enough, they'll face a firing squad, they still do it. We had regular Stage 3 smog alerts in LA in the 1970s where we were told, rightly so, that going outside would hurt our health. My Uber driver from a few months back moved back to the US because his nice, clean US lungs (thanks to EPA) couldn't handle breathing in Shanghai smog.

We had children dying of leukemia and other illnesses in San Jose in the 1970s because it was easier for IBM and Fairchild to dump their TCE into the groundwater than to dispose of it safely.

Now, it's possible that social media smog-shaming and pollution-shaming might rein that sort of behavior in, but that's not something that I'd bet my children's lives on.

Given the high cost of copper do we really want to see the effects of using cheaper aluminum wiring again? Do we really want safety of our children to be based solely on how much we, as parents, are willing or able to spend to buy copper wiring for our homes?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Arizona’s Governor to Licensing Boards: What Is It That You Do?

When I was a kid we lived in Northern Michigan (30 miles to closest city with more than 1,000 people and it only had about 3,500) and my father went out of his way to avoid having the township building inspector coming out to sign-off on what he was doing. His biggest reason for that was because the building inspector lived in a house with NO indoor plumping nor central heat.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources


Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close