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Linux versus Xxxxx

Linux versus Xxxxx

Linux versus Xxxxx

(OP)
I am seriously considering migrating towards Linux.
I am more interested in GOTO than COME FROM in regards to an unnamed OS.
Different flavours of Linux?
Pitfalls?
Difficulty?
Functionality?
What to expect?
Personal experience?
Any lost files or applications?
Any and all comments are welcome.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Linux mostly doesn't break, at least not in the ways you are used to, and problems are often handled without a reboot, and certainly without reformatting and reinstalling, which I have refused to do since DOS 3, and which has started reappearing in the support scripts for Win10.

Office functions are handled ably by Libre Office, which grew out of Open Office, which grew out of Star Office.

CAD functions are getting better. E.g. Draftsight offers a beta version for Fedora and another for Ubuntu. I am still using Win7 to run Draftsight and watch YouTube; otherwise I use CentOS6.
There are other options, of course. Electrical/electronic CAD/simulation seems fairly well supported.

Linux does not 'lose' files. You might lose track of them; to find them, go to a command prompt and type 'man find'.

Start with live CDs or thumbdrives. Hard drive install dialogs often include too many and too few options about partitioning. When Linux was new, it was common to install different parts of it on different partitions or different drives; there is much less reason to do so now.

Even better, start with Puppy on a thumbdrive, on a computer that you would otherwise throw away for being old and slow. You will be amazed.

See Distrowatch.com for news about Linuces, and rankings, and vectors to sources.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

(OP)
Thanks Mike
Yours
Bill

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Mike, you make it sound easy, but I've been there and gave up.

The problem is not Linux as OS, nor is it good application programs (although they sometimes suck).

The BIG problem is SW/HW integration, and where I stumbled was the issue with drivers for my hardware. Perhaps trying it on an HP laptop was too ambitious, and it's easier on a desktop. I don't know.

I almost needed to reverse engineer my machine to find out what chips were used for the interfaces, graphics, USB etc. and after having an incomplete list of drivers needed had to find the drivers etc. And then driver for speaker volume control etc. were not to be found.

I'd like to run Linux as well, but...

Where Microsoft excels is the install packages that really recognize everything on the machine and installs drivers with no fuss.

I've been on the lookout for Linux laptops with preinstalled OS. At the moment three are recommended (at a price premium over Windows!).
But they have a big drawback: no Ethernet connector, only WiFi. And I need Ethernet.

By all means try, but I've been burned here.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Benta, Linux was as hard as you say, back when I started messing with Red Hat 6; you had to manually configure everything, and Linux did nothing to help you figure out what boards and chips you were using. Of course, in those days, Windows needed some manual configuration too.

Things change.

Most Linux versions today will auto-install on all but the most bleeding edge hardware. WiFi drivers were the last trouble area, but they've been pretty much cleaned up in the last year or two. Most of the hardware manufacturers came around and offered help to Linux authors, and the holdouts were bypassed by writing pseudo-Windows wrappers around Windows drivers.

I'm writing this on a year-old HP laptop that came with Win7 Pro. Now it dual-boots to CentOS6, with a terabyte of disk space dedicated to each. There were no issues getting CentOS to install and run, after convincing Win7 that it didn't need the entire hard drive. It has WiFi and an Ethernet connector, which I am using now.

( I foolishly paid extra for 2-day shipping, above the $1200 for the computer. It did indeed come in two days, after it reached the port of entry, after the two weeks that it took to custom build it just for me, in China. )
It has 16 Gb of RAM, and a fairly high end Intel processor with two real cores and 64 bit everything.

CentOS6 also runs beautifully on my ten-year old HP desktop with one cpu,
a Dell Inspiron 5150, and CentOS5 runs on an IBM ThinkPad R40e.
I did have to jump a few hoops to get a Cardbus cell phone datalink card to run in the latter two, but that technology required special drivers for Windows, also.

Probably the best example of Linux' hardware adaptability is found in Puppy Linux, which will generally boot and run without issues from a USB stick on just about any computer you plug it into. It doesn't need to use the hard drive at all, and will find and use pretty much anything else on the machine. Another good example is the Knoppix DVD, which also supports almost any hardware, is useful by itself, and for rescuing machines that Windows has bricked.

The only machine in my active house fleet that won't run Linux well is a Cyrix CX486/25 with a mere 32Mb of ram. Actually, it will boot Damn Small Linux, but the gkrellm krells bring it to its knees speedwise, the video card doesn't like it much, and I couldn't get it to see the mouse hardware, which severely limits what you can do with it.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

What about running linix on a chromebook?
Some of them are fairly nice and cheep.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I think a search will find you a few Linux 'distros' that are specifically written to run on a Chromebook.

... and I think some that will run on a Raspberry PI.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Thanks, Mike.

"Once burned...", but perhaps I should try again.
Just got me thinking that it might be a better idea to check the distros first and see what laptops they support, instead of looking at hardware first.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

(OP)
Great information Friends. I value the older experiences also. I find it good to know that drivers were an issue but that issue has been solved.
I am thinking:
Puppy on an 8 Gb USB stick and try it on a couple of machines.
Connents?
Will this be easy to back out of if I don't like it?
Next question:
Precise Puppy?
Lucid Puppy?
Tahrpup?
Slacko Puppy
Wary Puppy?

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I have a hand-me-down HP desktop connected to my home net by a USB wireless stick.
It has Slacko on a USB stick installed.
If I shut down and remove the Slacko stick, it boots into WinXP.
Backing out doesn't get easier than that.
Slacko can read and write the hard drive, but no part of Slacko is installed there. There is a floppy icon on the Slacko desktop. Press that and the current state gets written to the USB stick. It also happens at shutdown.

If the desktop were older, I'd use Wary Puppy.
I have used Precise, Lucid and Tahrpup, but most of my laptops are old and have wireless problems with those newer Puppies.

The way to get started is download a Puppy, burn it to a CD, boot from that, and do an install onto a USB stick. Your hard drive is not necessary for this; you might even want to disconnect it for the process just to be sure.

Puppy's Universal Installer can also install Puppy to a hard drive, but I don't recommend it. The default is a vanilla Debian distribution; there's nothing wrong with it, but it ceases to be Puppy.
Second choice after a USB stick is a 'frugal' install to a hard drive, that just puts a Puppy on the hard drive. That boots to ram like any Puppy, and implementing an update is as simple as copying the later Puppy binary to the hard drive.

All the Puppies are quite small. You can download and try them all from CD in an hour or two.

Set your burner to not 'close' the CD, and Puppy can write its persistent information to the CD as extra sessions. That was the primary means of carrying Puppy around until USB sticks got cheap.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

(OP)
Can I skip the CD and download directly to the USB stick?

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

You might consider Solaris 11 which had its origins in Sun Microsystems long before Oracle got involved. I've been an on-off user since Solaris 2.5.1 which was the OS our turbine control system ran under, and we also had a few Solaris 10 machines for administrative tasks running on Xeon and i86 hardware. I installed Solaris 10 on my home machine for a while but others in this house couldn't adapt to it. sad

FWIW the Solaris 2.5.1 machines could easily run for a two-year period on a Sun Ultra 1 or Ultra 2 platform without a reboot. A very stable platform and OS.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I would be using Linux now if only I had found somebody to "walk me in the front door" when I tried it. I installed Ubuntu in a partition of the HD on this computer soon after I got it.

"Then what?"

I couldn't find anything, I didn't know how to issue commands, I could find no introductory text to walk me through the process of finding, downloading, installing, and configuring even the most rudimentary things like drivers. Commands that I remembered from using Linux workstations in the 90's didn't work. It took hours to figure out how to mount a drive. To research Linux, I had to switch back to the Windows 7 partition, where I already had 3 web browsers, AutoCAD, and MS Office installed within an hour of first boot-up.

I can be impatient. I don't like to waste my time. I gave up after a few days.
I recommend that you find a friend, co-worker, or other person who can show you the ropes rather than try it yourself by trial-and-error. Any other approach is self-abuse.

STF

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I think there's a Windows tool that can burn a Linux ISO to a USB stick; I've never used it, just because I got in the habit of burning CDs first, and I've still got stacks of blanks.

Puppy puts an icon on its desktop for each partition it finds.
Just click on the icon to mount it. Click again to unmount a hard drive.

Some distros require you to click on the 'My Computer' icon to show a list of partitions.

CentOS requires two clicks to mount a floppy from the My Computer list;
one click to 'detect media', which is because of the way floppy drives work,
only then will a floppy icon appear on the desktop, then
one click to mount the floppy.
And right click, 'unmount' to unmount the floppy.

It's very important to unmount floppies, USB drives, and other removable media before removing them, because Linux may delay writes to the actual medium. That's sort of an artifact of the olden days, where delayed write made a huge performance difference.

Both Puppy and Ubuntu have only one default user, who runs with root privileges.
CentOS and more traditional Linuces require a password for each ordinary user,
and a separate password for the root user, who has elevated privileges and can see,
and screw up, everything. Ordinary users can do most of what they need with no difficulty, and cannot see or change each other's stuff, or the system files. Again, that's a holdover from the days when a Unix computer might have hundreds of authorized users.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I have to say, that SparWeb's experiences mirror mine. Linux is very unfriendly to newcomers in itself, and asking dumb questions on the web brands you as an idiot.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Are all these puppies just console interfaces or do they come with graphical interfaces?

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Puppy comes with a graphical interface, with a small array of icons to fire up the built-in applications.
You rarely need to fire up a console, but there's an icon to launch one if you need it.
Once you get it installed to a USB stick, you may want to add Firefox and Libre Office, which are available from repositories.

When you add or update software, Puppy will launch a console, at which you may be asked y|n, but you generally don't need to know about arcane Linux commands at all. Many of the common arcane commands won't work anyway, because Puppy achieves its compact size by using lightweight applications with unusual names, which you don't have to remember because of the icons.

When you shut down for the first time, Puppy will bring up a console and ask you questions about how/where to save its state for the next startup. It will offer advice and helpful hints to help you choose wisely.

In truth, all Linux versions do their stuff at the console level, but the GUI in most hides that pretty well. ... and in most, you can choose among several GUIs.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

For what its worth, I've found some of the changes between Windows 10 and Windows 7 to be as much of a challenge as getting used to Linux interfaces, although in both cases its not quite so hard to overcome.

Linux is reasonably good at handling most hardware these days, some Nvidia chipsets present a little bit more of a challenge to get working well as the generic Linux driver doesn't work that well, but it will still give you a functional machine as a base.

I'd stick to one of the more common known distributions, CentOS is quite reliable, and with long term releases, although it doesn't support the latest and greatest. Ubuntu is another with LTS versions. Using something like Fedora means about a 9-12 month update cycle, which can be a bit daunting at first. Major distributions end up with more contributors for packages, which means less effort in installing preconfigured software (its entirely possible, and often encouraged, to download and build from source) as all the packaging and dependencies are handled.

I'd used Linux years ago with Red Hat 7, and a few years ago when my last PC died I couldn't see the justification in having to pay for another Windows Licence, so went with Fedora. I had a couple of issues at one stage during an upgrade where NetworkManager hosed my ethernet, but apart from that its been pretty good. Some things are a little bit more of a challenge (trying to get Adobe Crash Player to work in Firefox as an example), but there's usually a way around it.

Some equipment isn't quite so good with Linux, usually during its first major release. Some Atom based PCs don't behave so well with Linux, and some platforms (Intel's NUC as an example) has varying issues depending on the distribution and specific hardware. Ubuntu has certified hardware lists, selecting equipment from that list will highlight any identified issues, and make things a lot easier.

At the end of the day though, its an operating system. A little consideration of what you actually want to do with the PC will assist in identifying any road blocks. Web Browsing and office platform is pretty straightforward. Attempting to run AutoCAD via wine; not so much.

EDMS Australia

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Oddly enough I got some old version of Mathcad running under Wine. That made me laugh.

The nice thing about Puppy is the absence of complexity, and the amazing speed on older hardware, for instance my little laptop with 1Gb of RAM that was OK with W7 but killed by W10. The Linux fraternity rather lost the plot in the nineties, so far as I was concerned, because the easily available distros (RedHat say), were tedious speed wise when using the GUI on machines that were quite happy with W95 or 98.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

So I wanted to see if there's anyone who can offer the course I asked for before - one that would hold my hand through the baby steps, until I could find my own way.

I would want something like this: https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-linux-linuxfoundationx-lfs101x-1#!
...but then I read the comments from past students at the bottom of the page.

Then I find this: https://training.linuxfoundation.org/linux-courses...
... then I notice that there is no enrollment open at this time.
... and the text of the syllabus is a copy of the other webpage, so they're actually the same course.

Here's another: https://linuxacademy.com/linux/training/course/nam...
... which culminates in a truly satisfying installation of Microsoft Office and the Windows version of Firefox using WINE.

Hard to take these people seriously!

STF

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

That's frustrating Spar..

Mike, Freddy all you guys sharing info. THANKS!

A few more questions.

1) Do typical flavors of Linux understand and use all the cores in a multicore processor? In Win7 this Samsung Laptop has 4 cores supporting 8 threads.

2) I have 16G of ram would Linux embrace it?

3) Are there any depositories of drivers to handle all the laptop hardware typically found or do you just scrabble around at the manufacture's with crossed fingers?

4) Any problems streaming Youtube or NetFlix or Amazon Prime Video, etc., things dripping with DRM?

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

SparWeb, I'd muddled my way through part of that LFS101 course before, to be honest I got bored with it as it covered a lot of the starting detail, and I was a bit beyond that after dealing with the pain of installing Red Hat 7 years ago. Its probably targeted quite well at beginners or people who want to make that GUI transition from Windows. Basic course is still free as far as I can tell, not sure what people are complaining about with a mandatory $99 fee...

itsmoked,
1. Most modern distributions can handle multiple cores, notable exceptions might be very new processors released without vendor support (even Intel, with its 01.org Linux support, occasionally releases equipment that isn't that well supported in Linux).
2. I can't see any reason why a modern distribution wouldn't. Its certainly not like the WinXP 32 bit memory restriction.
3. Most of the time, particularly with a web connection, it'll install and run without having to separately download or install vendor specific stuff. It actually appears easier to get things running than the budget systems where you buy all the components and then have to muck around with drivers and so on, and install from different locations.
e.g. the intel stuff eventually gets merged into mainstream sources, other exceptions are nvidia specific binaries, where the system works, but the proprietary binaries work much better, but take more effort to install them.
4. Never tried Netflix or similar on my machine, there are known issues with YouTube in certain instances, but that's more of a browser / HTML5 / Adobe Crash player issue than anything else. Adobe previously cut all support for Flash on Linux, then restated it. Mozilla has now permanently blocked it though. If you use Chrome / Chromium, its not an issue either.

In summary, bleeding edge hardware can pose an issue for compatibility. Most stuff works these days though, its nowhere near as bad as it used to be for not being able to support strange devices. One last caveat, I've not used a printer for years, my last laser printer was purchased as it did support Linux, I have no idea what print support is like now, but it was very poor for years, particularly with cheaper printers.

EDMS Australia

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Thanks again Freddy! Hadn't thought of printers.

I have two big Dell Inspirons with 17" screens, high def, pushing 10 years old. I moved on because they got painfully boggy and I wasn't up to re-installing everything all over again to end up with XP. My comps usually take me a week to get how I like them with all the apps I use, hence the set-aside. We actually have 3 of them - forgot my better half has one too.

Anyway, after the good vibes I'm getting here I'll take the spare of the spares and see what happens with Linux.
If I get a happy useful result I could always dupe it into my other two.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

On a somewhat side note to this. I have started dabbling with running virtual machines at home. So far, it shows some real promise. I can simply boot the OS I want and then shut it down and boot another OS, all while using the same hardware. The only limit is the disk space since each OS basically needs an image file created on the "server" which is the replacement for a physical disk or partition to install onto. I can create and destroy different OS installs far more easily then what is possible otherwise.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I have been using Ubuntu now for over a year. I ,initially, missed the applications that I walked away from but have found substitutes often free for most of the stuff that I was using in Windows. If you have something that you need to use that is windows bases, you can always fire up WINE (windows virtual machine emulator) to use those applications while in a linux environment. People are able to play windows games in WINE so it is not too slow but don't be expect to play the newest 3d shooter with the graphics cranked all the way up. There are games that are released for Linux but the drivers won't get you the most out of your card and you don't get whatever directX gives you. If you don't play games, the jump isn't a big deal. Drivers are the only thing that can be an issue. I had my computer lock up over and over until I figured out which video driver and version worked the best with my video card. The biggest hurdle to switching I think is a person's ability to search the internet to find a solution to a problem he/she is having.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

ScottyUk,

I am actually trained in Solaris administration. That is what got me into Linux in the first place. I go back to the days when you had to compile the kernel. How good is Solaris' hardware support? Historically, this is the big argument against Linux.

Here is the note I have attached to all the Linux install instructions on my website...

Quote (drawoh: Why Linux)


Linux is Free Software. Your computer is not encumbered by copyrights and Digital Rights Management (DRM). DRM is important. Proprietary software publishers are trying so hard to prevent unathorized copying of their software that they can prevent you from installing and using copies you purchased, and are authorized to use.

Linux is not hard to install on most computers. The latest "bleeding edge" video and sound cards may give you trouble. If you are buying a new computer, you should do some research on the hardware. If your computer is older, Linux should have all the drivers you need. You will have to research Linux support on printers and scanners. Not everything out there works.

A basic Linux install will include some very good graphics programs, particularly the GIMP, a good substitute for Adobe Photoshop.

Linux comes with every programming tool except for the proprietary Microsoft ones like Visual Basic and C#.

Linux has some capability to run efficiently on older, slower computers, because you can select smaller, faster user interfaces and applications. Make sure you install the window managers XFCE and LXDE. Libre Office is a credible alternative to Microsoft Office because it is just about as bloated as Microsoft Office. Try the word processor AbiWord, and the spreadsheet Gnumeric. You could learn to use LaTeX, whose files are edited with a text editor.

Linux is less capable at video games and multimedia. There are lots of Free Software computer games out there, but the best stuff is commercial and proprietary. Few publishers support Linux.

The big problem with Linux and multi-media is ideological. Most media formats are proprietary. GNU and Linux are the work of Free Software people, who are reluctant to support proprietary formats. The GNU ``Copyleft'' really is a copyright. All copyrights are supported by the Free Software community.

Linux can be make to support multi-media. I watch YouTube and Netflix on my Linux box. I can watch most commercial DVDs. Don't expect the Free Software community to knock itself out to help you.

Yet another problem with Linux is text editors. The traditional system administration editor is vi. In the hands of a touch typist who knows how it works, it is very productive. It is absolutely not user friendly in any way shape or form. Most current Linux distributions include nano. This text editor uses the cursor keys properly, and it has a command menu at the bottom of the page. Definitely, use nano for updating configuration files.

For more information on the thinking behind Free Software, just follow the link. You can get support for most media formats. Just search Google for Linux multi-media support.

I regard the Gnome and KDE user interfaces as bloated, hence, my recommendation for smaller, faster desktops like XFCE and LDXE. Cinnamon is the old version of Gnome, that worked very fine thank you.

--
JHG

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Hi drawoh,

I was an admin back in the days when Sun still made their own hardware, graphics was 13W3 and S-Bus was king. Long out of that game now - today I seem to be forgetting stuff rather than learning it. sad

Solaris supports the established brands quite well. It's more patchy on the roll-yer-own PC's where a generic motherboard is married up to a generic graphics card, obscure RAID controller, etc. Most times you hit lucky with drivers but it sometimes takes a bit more effort. My last couple of PC's have been second-user HP workstations which were no longer quite top-of-the-line but still powerful by most yardsticks, and they have been OK without much intervention. By contrast an HP server we built didn't want to play nicely with Solaris 10 and took a fair bit of manual configuration before it worked correctly. Once configured it was very stable.

I haven't had to call on support from Oracle for Solaris, but as the O/S is free I wouldn't expect too much of the support purely on the basis that you get what you pay for, and having paid nothing I have no expectations of help. The Solaris user community and the wider Unix / Linux community is very knowledgable and generally friendly. Much the same as Linux in those respects. smile

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I have several Linus machines on Virtualbox VMs. I use them for odds and ends - trying to using open source software to figure out a circuit sim software, resize/rework audio files, general learning.
So far, I've left my main machines (one desktop, one laptop) on Win 7.
I messed with WINE a bit, but that was a while back. Some stuff I use regularly requires Windows, and Win 7 is . . . good enough for now.

Jay Maechtlen
http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

(OP)
I want to thank everyone for their advice, comments experiences, both good and bad.
I value every post.
This forum is certainly worth the price of admission. grin

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

My son's robotics team got me back into Linux after about 12 years. On a Raspberry Pi! The install was great, just (using the terminal command on a Mac for) copying a disk image onto an SD Card and I was off and running. As the PI hardware is controlled, I've been working through software version issues instead. Its pretty impressive when I compare a PI to the workstation I first ran UNIX on...

Z

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I've been a UNIX user at work for a long time (all the old flavours), reduced to just Linux recently. So now it's Linux for work (simulation, analysis), Windows for play (email, internet, office). But since I do not take my work home, there's been no real push to move to Linux at home. That is until I picked up a Raspberry pi. I got it mostly for work, but found it easier to buy my own one than try to persuade work to provide one (and allow it on their network). So now I have Linux at home with (virtually) zero investment. The price of a round of drinks/tank of gas, plus nothing new and big to find a home for.

Steve

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

My Rasberry Pi 3 is attached to the TV and running KODI for me at the moment.

If (or when) the legal position around KODI gets too dicey for law-abiding citizens I will find something else for it to do, maybe for the kids to do some simple coding if I buy some I/O modules to make it more tangible for them.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

Mine runs web, email and VPN servers, as well as acting as a print gateway between iOS devices and the B&W printer which isn't Airprint compatible on its own. Astonishingly low-maintenance too.

A.

RE: Linux versus Xxxxx

I'm looking at setting up a Raspberry Pi B as a small fossil server for bug tracking and ticketing. The effort and hardware risk involved is acceptable for the scope of the project we're tracking, and its certainly powerful enough for the task at hand.

EDMS Australia

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