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HR ethics
11

HR ethics

HR ethics

(OP)
I'm 99.9% decided on this one but throwing it out for comment just in case my ethical standard are off kilter...

Say you've accepted an offer of employment from a new employer, and handed in your resignation.

Current employer says they want to make a counter offer but insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted.

Thoughts?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: HR ethics

Don't.

You are currently with an employer that is trying to pay you as little as possible.

AS LITTLE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

RE: HR ethics

Probably violating all manner of confidentiality expectations if you show the offer to your current employer.

RE: HR ethics

Hmmmmm. I --don't think-- the dilemma is an ethical one. Just personal preference and strategy.

1.) Show the offer
2.) Tell them the number and say "believe it if you want"
3.) Don't show/tell and say "just offer me what I'm worth to you"

I don't think there is an ethical offense in any of these, but I might be missing something. I think it comes down to what you think will get you the best offer in the end. First question is would you stay for any amount? Are you leaving for some other reason than money in the first place? (No need to answer that, it's just what I would ask myself.)

An ethical dilemma would be if you choose number two and "round" the number a bit.

RE: HR ethics

Of course, as TheTick says, if there are any written confidentiality statements on the offer it's a no-go.

RE: HR ethics

KENAT,

I was told a long time ago that you should not accept a counter offer from your current employer. Even if they beat your new offer, they know you are looking, and they do not trust you any more. The person telling me this was a head hunter, so he did have an interest. smile

--
JHG

RE: HR ethics

My immediate gut reaction was no.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: HR ethics

7
Here's a perspective from "an employer" (me) who interviews, hires, and responds sometimes to employees getting an offer from outside.

Employees options/thoughts:
1. You may always be approached at times from other companies with offers. There's nothing wrong with listening, and perhaps receiving, an offer.
2. In fact receiving an offer is a healthy thing for you as it helps to correlate your abilities/value vs. marketplace salaries at that time.
3. Before accepting the offer, you need to weigh ALL the pros and cons of both positions - your current job and the new prospective job.
4. You should decide up front whether you are going to discuss this with your current employer or make the choice independent of them.
5. If you choose independently of your current employer then stick to that decision and simply resign and be done with it. This is usually the case when you are in a bad position and simply want out.
6. Conversely, you may decide to allow your current employer to weigh in and this would include visiting with them to see how they may respond.
7. If your current employer offers to match or beat the other offer, then you can evaluate both positions and CHOOSE. This should involve more than just consideration of salary.

Current Employer options/thoughts:
1. Realize that ANY employee may get offers like this. Don't take it as disloyalty.
2. If an employee presents their situation and asks for a response, realize that they are giving you the privilege of deciding what to do.
3. You can decide to do nothing, match the offer, beat the offer, and/or alter the employee's status/position/environment.
4. You, as the employer, should realize that most free-market offers like this are...well...free market offers and they actually help you to understand what various types and levels of employees are worth.
5. The other firm's offer may be ridiculously high, and you may very well know your employee is not that valuable and choose to let them go their way.
6. If the employee is a valuable part of your business, you should then review with them all the pros and cons that YOU can think of between the two positions. You are sometimes in a better position to see these pros and cons than the employee.
7. Decide your response to your employee (if they invite one) as to adjustment in salary, change in role/responsibility or promotion.

I totally reject the notion that all employers somehow KNOW exactly what an employee is really worth. In my experience in engineering, keeping up with current wage levels for various engineering levels of experience and abilities is very difficult. NSPE, ACEC and others develop salary surveys but these only really give you a glimpse of what engineers are getting paid and also vary from city to city, state to state.

So the key on the counter offer question is that the employee needs to decide up front whether to even allow that kind of discussion with their current employer. (red item 4 above)
And that decision should also come into play with whether you accept the offer first, or wait to decide, discuss, etc.

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RE: HR ethics

(OP)
Thanks all, the overall consensus matches with my 99.9% decision and not only had a number of the points mentioned above been considered but some even raised with current employer.

Technically it may not be hard core ethics issue if there is no explicit confidentiality agreement etc. but I feel it does touch on ones integrity - which as much as I tend to see the shades of gray is something not to be considered lightly.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: HR ethics

From a company point of view, they're probably trying to see if you're bluffing for a raise before they make a counter offer.

From a disclosure point of view, I'd tell them to stick it. They can either play the game and make an offer, or not. Provision of a 3rd party offer has no place in that discussion with your current employer. You've provided your resignation, the company can choose to either accept it or make a counter offer, but indicating that the counter offer hinges on disclosure of an offer is laughable.

RE: HR ethics

Quote:

...you've accepted an offer of employment...

So ends the discussion.


Quote:

... insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted.

<expletives deleted>

You will feel really good when you wave at them in the rearview mirror.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: HR ethics

No good can come from sharing that info.

RE: HR ethics

I agree overall. Bear in mind that if the offer with the new company is out of kilter with their present salary structure then you may not be seeing big raises until everyone else catches up. This is more or less the opposite equivalent of the usual advice, that if you stick with your old company having accepted a counteroffer you won't be seeing any raises.

Anyway, assuming you meant 'you've accepted an offer of employment' then the deal is done absent extraordinary circumstances.





Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: HR ethics

Just remember that an offer has no monetary value, and is not a contract. It can be changed after it has been accepted, and your only recourse is to walk. I learned that the hard way, on my first real job after graduation. Welcome to the fine, upstanding profession of engineering...

Best of luck KENAT!

RE: HR ethics

I agree with Mike Halloran that if you accept the offer, then you are bound by your integrity to follow through with your choice.

The time to compare/contrast is before you accept the offer.

RE: HR ethics

The only suspect ethics issue is your current employer even asking to see the offer.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: HR ethics

Let them counter blind, or not at all. Explain it wasn't your plan to extort money from them, and you know they don't want to pay more than they think you're worth. Both parties need to be happy with the salary or it won't work. Thank them for whatever the offer is and move on, try to leave the door open.

RE: HR ethics

Your worth to them can only be determined by them. You are not some horse to be traded.

Asking for "proof" of you worth as determined by others is probably just one more, from a long list of, mildly disrespectful and incompetent manners of interacting with employees that caused you to start looking elsewhere in the first place.

I disagree with others here that if you backed out of the new offer that you would have sullied your integrity. You are no more bound (less, in IMO) to the new employer than the last until they start placing dollars in your pocket. Though appearing similar to a contractual agreement, offer letters are really just a human resources CYA document they require you to sign. But hey, what an honor and how official looking!

FWIW, I think engineers, on average, offer way more "loyalty" to employers than what they receive in return. This feeling of obligation to a non-living entity (well, Mitt Romney might disagree with that description) is kind of silly.

RE: HR ethics

Quote:

Asking for "proof" of you worth as determined by others is probably just one more, from a long list of, mildly disrespectful and incompetent manners of interacting with employees that caused you to start looking elsewhere in the first place.

I can see where a lot of employees get this notion. It may be true in some cases but in my case at least, and with a lot of other fellow engineering firm owners I know, the request to see what the "market" is paying for engineers is not in any way disrespectful in and of itself.

So if an employer looks for "proof" of what they should pay their engineers from published salary surveys is that disrespectful and incompetent too? Not necessarily.

How is it any different then when one of their employees (KENAT in this case) comes to them, resigns, and they simply ask what offer they've received?

In some cases, and I agree with HamburgerHelper here, they may be simply looking to see what minimum they can offer you to stay. I concede that it may be true in some cases.

However, in MOST cases that I've seen, the employer is simply trying to understand the marketplace of engineers, compare the offer in all its facets (base salary, bonuses, 401k, paid time off, profit sharing, insurance benefits, - the whole package of compensation). This gives them a chance to offer their employee an adjustment since they've now been suddenly hit with the "wall of reality".

As I stated above, it's amazing how many employees think that their employer somehow magically "knows" what the "correct" or fair, or competitive salary is all the time for every employee. It just ain't true.

And the fact that they don't know this in no way is disrespectful or incompetent.

(just standing up a little for employers here) smile


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RE: HR ethics

"And the fact that they don't know this in no way is disrespectful or incompetent."

Not the issue, as I see it; it's the asking to see the actual offer, as if Kenat would lie about the offer amount. THAT is the disrespectful bit; if they can't trust you to tell them the truth about a competitor's job offer, how can they trust you them the truth about bad things then?

Moreover, a competitor's costs and expenses are proprietary information, and your employer is asking you, in effect, to violate a confidential piece of information about a competitor, particularly if it reveals the cost of benefits beyond the basic salary, such as health insurance, pension, vacation, etc.

And, it cuts a third way; your employer could be particularly asinine by getting that information from you, making you a counter that you accept, which requires you to reject the competitor's offer, and then rescind their offer. Unlikely to happen a big company, but small companies on the other hand...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: HR ethics

I think the biggest issue people around here about job offers, is the time to negotiate with your current employer is when you've received an offer. If you are given an offer don't accept it immediately if you think you might want to give your current employer a chance to counter-offer. If you want to play your current and future employers off one another for more than 1 round, be aware that if your performance doesn't equal their expectations, you may be fired.

If necessary, give the employers a drop dead date for final offers and make your decision based upon the offers at the table. Once you've accepted an offer, don't go changing your mind later.

RE: HR ethics

JAE,

Everybody wants as much as they can get and nobody wants to pay more than they need to. The only reason an employer wants to know the market rate for an engineer is so they can offer as little as possible and still get warm body. As an employer, I would follow the same practice. This is the nature of business. But that doesn't mean an employee should be sympathetic to it.

Asking for proof before making a counter offer smacks of poor etiquette. The employer either wants to keep the employee for the stated price or they don't. If you don't trust your employees, why would you want to keep them?

RE: HR ethics

2
I don't think I've ever been in a position where I would entertain a counteroffer. By the time I'm taking offers, it's not about just money anymore.

RE: HR ethics

I'd agree that asking for proof is a bit much.
But asking for KENAT to tell them simply what the offer is is not disrespectful in my view.

Having said that, and re-reading KENAT's original post does indicate that they asked to "see" the offer. Yes - a bit tacky.

I was focusing on the statements here that implied that any and all employers just want to screw their employees. Not true.

Most of the firm's I've worked with and many of other firm's (where I know the owners) the attitude usually is that we (they) want to pay their employees a competitive rate - higher than the average....not the bare minimum.

Terratek - maybe you have but I've never worked for or managed a firm that wants to "offer as little as possible and still get warm body." Never seen it in over 30 years of practice.

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RE: HR ethics

JAE, I agree it would be totally okay to just ask.

Replace "warm body" with "an employee they want". Same principal. How otherwise would market rates, or even the concept of market rates, for salaries even develop if this wasn't the majority case?

I don't begrudge the system, I just don't delude myself that business is personal. It can be...until it's not.

RE: HR ethics

(OP)
Thanks again all, I realize now that my OP may be a bit unclear to some.

My question wasn't fundamentally about the 'ethics' of accepting a counter offer etc. - that's been discussed before and I tend to agree with the consensus. (Although I'm hesitant to say never accept a counter offer if it's generous enough and depending on circumstances [i.e. not just the top line $ and are the circumstances 'extra ordinary' as Greg said] I'm inclined to agree with Tick & others that more often than not it's probably not for the best.)

My question was just about the aspect of 'show me the offer'.

I did decline to show them and pointed out that they did have my resignation in writing if that helped.

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RE: HR ethics

I wouldn't have an issue with letting them know how much my salary improved... it may help them become more competitive in the market, and if every company did that, it would help the average Joe's salary. But to be asked for proof is in poor form. Nothing unethical, per se, as the offer letter isn't an NDA, but still in poor form... to ask for or to show it.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: HR ethics

I think the only way I would provide evidence is by sending him an appropriately redacted copy of my paystub from the new place of employment. Possibly without redacting the expletives @MikeHalloran more maturely deleted.

RE: HR ethics

"Current employer says they want to make a counter offer but insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted."

Yup, that's the part that made it weird, and I'd have declined as well. Smacks of distrust, and as pointed out, you've already given them a letter of resignation. I can imagine a lot of snarky responses to the request, but the wise man would just walk away.

RE: HR ethics

Depending upon your relationship with your current employer, I would not accept the counter offer , but walk away , make sure you do it on good terms , DO NOT BURN BRIDGES. Later after you are established in your new job , if your old employer wants to make you a better offer , you can entertain it .
By this time your old employer will have realized, that he really, has a need for you. This also gets away from the " I am going to fire you on my terms mentality." .
I had one guy , a good employee, I hired back 3 times. Maybe I was a soft touch.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: HR ethics

Had another thought. Your salary offer is part of your employment contract. Would your current employer be happy to let you show the new employer your current employment contract?

I'm kind of guessing they'd squeal like pigs.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: HR ethics

As an aside... Congratulations! wink

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

RE: HR ethics

How about expecting employers to pay employees according to their worth to the company. Making a counter offer is equivalent to admitting they underpaid you.

RE: HR ethics

That assumes they know what "you are worth". That is a very subjective and difficult number to arrive at.
Making a counter offer is only equivalent to admitting they don't know what the current market rate is for a given employee type.

Sometimes the offering firm is jacking up the offer just to get you to move to their firm....later keeping future salary adjustments such that they "catch up" over time and get you back to a market rate.
Sometimes the offering firm has an immediate unforeseen heavy workload and needs bodies fast...only to lay them off later.

Sometimes current firms don't realize that yearly adjustments based on inflation, and their vision of the market, get folks either too low or too high (I've seen both) and an outside offer shows them what others "might" value them at.

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RE: HR ethics

Kenat - posting in the pub is for pub members only, but anyone can view the posts (unless there are some super secret ones that I don't know about), so be careful there too

RE: HR ethics

I would not accept the counter offer, and, would definitely not provide them with a copy of the offer (My Ethics).

I didn't think that HR had ethics...

Dik

RE: HR ethics

RoxFox and theTick... I don't think the offer should be presented, confidentiality agreement or not.

Dik

RE: HR ethics

I'm aware of a similar incident at a firm. The chronology is as follows:
clerical person A is notified that her position is terminated.
clerical person B, independently, notifies the company she is leaving for 1.5x salary to another firm.
clerical person A is notified that she can fill the position of clerical person B and is not terminated.
clerical person A's income is decreased to fill the position originally held by person B.

...gives you a real appreciation of HR.

Dik

RE: HR ethics

I would hope clerical person A decided to leave, too.

Most jobs have a pay range that a company is willing to pay for that type of work. Decreasing someone's pay because they transfer them to a 'lower paying' position is not right. the company should figure out how to equalize the pay of the 2 clerical positions.

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: HR ethics

...likely a matter of time.

Dik

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