Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
(OP)
I need advice relating to the Certificate of Authorization (COA) and Firm Permits that various states require.
I am licensed in PA, MD, WV and VA. All of these states, with the exception of PA, require some form of business registration with the State Board in order for the company to practice engineering in the state. The laws seem clear – the company must have a full time on-staff PE, licensed in that state, that is in “responsible charge” for engineering activities within that state.
The company I work for is primarily involved in material handling projects (coal / aggregate), so this may give you an idea of the end consumer. Our work isn’t exclusive to this industry, but practically 100% of our work stays within the “industrial” sector.
The company’s organizational layout is a bit difficult to explain. For one, there are essentially two companies in one. Company #1 is the parent construction company and is composed primarily of a project manager division and a fabrication division (with detailing department). Company #2 is the subsidiary that consists of a “design team” that includes engineers, fire suppression designers, fiber optics, etc.
*NOTE – Up until earlier this year, I was employed by Company #1, which was a design/build construction company at the time. When they re-organized and moved me to Company #2 in an effort to consolidate liability, Company #1 became just a plain construction company due to the lack of design capability. (Although their fab shop detailing department tends to dabble in it, but that’s another story!)
I am the only on-staff PE (structural-focused), but I am not in a management position. By default, I am their only option for signing the required affidavits for these COA’s and Firm Permits, and I’ve done so for several years now. However, because I’ve become more aware of my situation, and because of my lack of involvement in most of the projects, I am having ethical concerns about renewing these certificates with my name on it.
In addition to myself, this “design team” has one mechanical engineer (degree only), one electrical engineer (degree only), and a manager who is a dairy farmer that has decided to dabble with a few engineering classes. There are also several other “technicians” that specialize in various fields including fire suppression and even “electrical design”.
This design team is constantly quoting projects, procuring work, and interacting with customers. I have zero involvement with these projects, and I don’t have the slightest clue as to what the scope of work is or what the deliverables are. I am only involved with the projects that are specifically brought to me.
The company’s position, which has been formulated by the Corporate Attorney, is that I can only be held liable for projects that I know about. Therefore, they can sit me over in the corner in a non-management position and use those COA’s (that rely on my credentials) to practice “design” or “engineering” as they see fit. They believe that I’m guarded from liability on any project they choose not to show me.
They also take exception to the legal definition of “practice of engineering” (see NSPE or states laws) because they believe that definition could overlap with various trades.
I do not believe this is a correct interpretation of the laws, but I’m not an attorney.
As you can imagine, this is a battle that I have lost up to this point. Unfortunately, because of the impasse, I think I’ve reached the point of no return here and they’re going to force my hand here. I am about to begin actively looking for another job (which are quite scarce in this area), but before I do, I want to make sure that I’m correct in my thinking and that I’m not overreacting.
Alright……let’s hear some opinions!
I am licensed in PA, MD, WV and VA. All of these states, with the exception of PA, require some form of business registration with the State Board in order for the company to practice engineering in the state. The laws seem clear – the company must have a full time on-staff PE, licensed in that state, that is in “responsible charge” for engineering activities within that state.
The company I work for is primarily involved in material handling projects (coal / aggregate), so this may give you an idea of the end consumer. Our work isn’t exclusive to this industry, but practically 100% of our work stays within the “industrial” sector.
The company’s organizational layout is a bit difficult to explain. For one, there are essentially two companies in one. Company #1 is the parent construction company and is composed primarily of a project manager division and a fabrication division (with detailing department). Company #2 is the subsidiary that consists of a “design team” that includes engineers, fire suppression designers, fiber optics, etc.
*NOTE – Up until earlier this year, I was employed by Company #1, which was a design/build construction company at the time. When they re-organized and moved me to Company #2 in an effort to consolidate liability, Company #1 became just a plain construction company due to the lack of design capability. (Although their fab shop detailing department tends to dabble in it, but that’s another story!)
I am the only on-staff PE (structural-focused), but I am not in a management position. By default, I am their only option for signing the required affidavits for these COA’s and Firm Permits, and I’ve done so for several years now. However, because I’ve become more aware of my situation, and because of my lack of involvement in most of the projects, I am having ethical concerns about renewing these certificates with my name on it.
In addition to myself, this “design team” has one mechanical engineer (degree only), one electrical engineer (degree only), and a manager who is a dairy farmer that has decided to dabble with a few engineering classes. There are also several other “technicians” that specialize in various fields including fire suppression and even “electrical design”.
This design team is constantly quoting projects, procuring work, and interacting with customers. I have zero involvement with these projects, and I don’t have the slightest clue as to what the scope of work is or what the deliverables are. I am only involved with the projects that are specifically brought to me.
The company’s position, which has been formulated by the Corporate Attorney, is that I can only be held liable for projects that I know about. Therefore, they can sit me over in the corner in a non-management position and use those COA’s (that rely on my credentials) to practice “design” or “engineering” as they see fit. They believe that I’m guarded from liability on any project they choose not to show me.
They also take exception to the legal definition of “practice of engineering” (see NSPE or states laws) because they believe that definition could overlap with various trades.
I do not believe this is a correct interpretation of the laws, but I’m not an attorney.
As you can imagine, this is a battle that I have lost up to this point. Unfortunately, because of the impasse, I think I’ve reached the point of no return here and they’re going to force my hand here. I am about to begin actively looking for another job (which are quite scarce in this area), but before I do, I want to make sure that I’m correct in my thinking and that I’m not overreacting.
Alright……let’s hear some opinions!





RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
If you strike out and start looking for jobs, best of luck!
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
just as an example, here is one states rules (just the first two paragraphs) which seem clear that your company would not comply with if it was in this state. Every state is different though, so it is unclear how many laws they are breaking. As far as you personally being liable, not clear since you are not a principal in the company. You are not an owner or manager, but you are aware of the violations. This would be unethical to continue doing this.
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
Just to be clear though - in instances where "professional" engineering services are required by the customer, I am involved to my knowledge. I have "responsible charge" in those cases. It's the other cases where other personnel offer "design" services without my knowledge. I'm not in a position where I can provide oversight to all "design" personnel, so I don't know what's being promised or offered. I can't tell if violations are happening or not.
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
I'm not trying to escape liability on anything I've sealed. I'm trying to find out if the "other" design efforts offered by the company, that I don't have detailed knowledge of, can get me in trouble.
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
Responsible charge is a term that means you have control over the engineering decisions and outcomes. That cannot be superceded by corporate policy nor non-engineer decisions.
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
See if they would be willing to sign a "hold harmless" clause - meaning that in the event that everything went pear-shaped and you were found liable, they would make you whole for whatever judgement was found against you. Obviously I'm not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice, and I make no claim as to whether or not this would hold up in court.
However, it could force them to put their money where their mouth is, figuratively speaking.
As others have said, talk to an attorney who specializes in these things. The insurance company being used for liability coverage may also have an opinion.
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
I did locate an attorney, who also has an engineering degree, that specializes in this topic. I'll be speaking with him next week.
Keep something in mind - the company is located in MD, which has a fairly liberal carve out in the "industrial exception" for manufactured products. Aside from the structural work that I do, most of the other products that are produced by the company fall into this classification. This is why I believe the company feels so insulated from the various laws.
RE: Need advice on “responsible charge” and COA/Firm Permits
In my mind, rightly or wrongly, any indication that you're aware of it now means that you should be at least flagging it with relevant company people.
EDMS Australia