Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
(OP)
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gaping-hole-in-or...
Member Spartan: Stage storage flow data here for those interested:
https://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?s=ORO
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
Quote:
Erosion has created a 300-foot-deep hole in the concrete spillway of Oroville Dam and state officials say it will continue grow.
State engineers on Wednesday cautiously released water from Lake Oroville's damaged spillway as the reservoir level climbed amid a soaking of rain.
Situated in the western foothills of the Sierra, Lake Oroville is the second-largest manmade reservoir in California after Shasta....
Member Spartan: Stage storage flow data here for those interested:
https://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?s=ORO
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)





RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The spillway is not over the dam, but still a big problem.
http://www.water.ca.gov/swp/facilities/Oroville/in...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Somethings also odd. I can't see how you'd get a 300ft DEEP hole from that. Is that even possible?
I would not want to be living in Orville at the moment.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
They probably mean the hole is 300 ft LONG, but you never know what to believe in a newspaper article.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Apparently the current solution is to try to use the spillway at reduced capacity:
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Probably will take the whole thing down to the bottom before too long.
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Another picture at a higher flow rate:
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I.e., there's dirt in it, that didn't come over the top of the spillway.
This bodes ill.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I would be far more concerned with the stability of the dam.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike, good eye.
Isn't it great too, how they are feverishly working to make the emergency spillway functional by removing
trees etc. I guess you always have lots of time to get emergency systems operational
during EMERGENCIES.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I hope they are not removing entire trees.
I'd guess that severely pruning the tops but not killing the tree, turning them into giant Bonsai, and leaving the roots intact, might be better for stabilizing the soil.
</inexpert...>
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-oroville-...
Hole is much farther from the dam than it appears in elevation pictures.
[img http://www.trbimg.com/img-589de176/turbine/la-me-l...]
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Where do you suppose such water might come from?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/ot-orovil...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The hole is considerably larger now
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
After watching a long movie of a helli cruising the spillway I see now that the water really does run horizontally for a couple of hundred yards before sloping down. So indeed it doesn't look like the dam's left natural structure is ever going to be in jeopardy. They can let it eat the entire mountain from the Hole down with out affecting the structure. And that's likely exactly what they're going to do rather than let the emergency spillway, which is merely a concrete lip go into operation.
You can see the water has pretty much stopped being muddy and only bedrock is remaining.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The river in the middle of our town hits minor flooding at 16.7 feet and major flooding at 21 feet. Tuesday it was at 23 feet.
Normal is about 24 inches and we have 37.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Lake level is now up even higher at 900 foot (+) and has begun washing over the emergency spillway this morning.
The primary spillway is separated from the earth-fill dam by a raised hillside and some bedrock, but the erosion from the primary spillway concrete failure is washing into that hillside - Don't know how many hundred feet are left of "original" rock and hillside between the spillway and the earth dam itself.
The emergency spillway is of course not regulated at all, so it will continue flowing as long as lake level is above emergency spillway height.
The emergency spillway is beside the primary spillway, but looks like they are separated by a few hundred feet of of (what used to be) hillside and trees. SO water over the emergency spillway could rejoin the washout from theprimary spillway.
Don't know if they (California Water Resources Board ?) are going to close or throttle the primary spillway once the emergency spillway starts flooding. Seems like they would not want to throttle flow in the primary spillway, but, the primary is waashing hillside away.
So what is better?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/atmosph...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Image shows the emergency spillway (with concrete lip now being overwashed and flowing over the dam road below), the controlled spillway entrance channel, then the raised hillside between the normal spillway and the dam itself, then the earthen dam,
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
initial K.E. of the vertical water.
I was given a half-day tour of the Oroville power plant when I was in my 20s. Of the many technical
tours I've been lucky enough to have that was one of the most memorable. Fascinating. The whole plant
is underground.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
BTW, I still remember seeing the construction of Oroville Dam (which ran from 1961-1968) when I was a kid. My grandparents lived in nearby Chico and had a cabin at Lake Madrone in the forested hills above Lake Oroville. According to my dad, my first trip to the cabin (and thus past the construction site) was in the summer of 1963. just before I turned 5. My family, coming up from Fresno, made 2 to 3 trips to the cabin each year until my grandparents sold it in about 1974. On every trip past the dam while it was under construction, we would stop for a while at a viewpoint and my dad would explain what was going on. I didn't understand much, but I was fascinated. My younger brother had no interest in it.
Fred
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Back side of emergency overflow
And, yes it looks like one frozen image frame as the water looks entirely static but if you
full-screen it you will see moving cars and the foreground tree dancing around.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Nope. He's an electronics tech with a local school district and makes less than 2/3 what I make. He's actually proud to be "doing this well" and only having to work a fraction as hard as I do.
My brother talked about becoming an electrical engineer, but dropped out of college because taking two 4-units classes (Calculus and Physics) at the local community college, and getting A's in both, while not having a job was "too much work." At the time, I was taking 18 units/semester in civil engineering at the local university, working 35 hours/week, and maintaining better than a B average.
Funny you should mention attorneys because my old high school mints attorneys like the are coming off a copy machine. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, my high school was the top academic high school in all of Central California and one of the best in the state. In my class of 535 graduates, there are something like 40 attorneys. My wife's class (the next year) has a similar number of attorneys, including my old debate partner. My class has about 20 doctors, a physicist, several college professors, no famous athletes, and just 3 civil engineers. We have about 10 engineers total.
Fred
==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.google.ca/amp/heavy.com/news/2017/02/o...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.cbc.ca/1.3979524
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I would really like to see some facility drawings on the project. For the emergency spillway to function without failure, it had to be designed for overtopping. What is the maximum design lake level though, and that been exceeded?
I am confused too.. the original emergency spillway first posted was limited in wodth. JAE'S drone shots are much, much wider. What is the extent of rhe emergency overflow? Total release at this point has to be in excess of 140000 cfs at this point from everything I can gather...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Go to 4 minutes for the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3x4r7jmD9Y
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-officials-order-evacuation-california-dam-45446241
Looks like the emergency spillway was eroding which triggered the evac but has since slowed down it's erosion. They're planning to plug the eroding area with rocks airdropped by helicopters.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Can only assume the bit they were worried about was the junction of the emergency spillway and the normal one, where they were busy pouring concrete....
The road has already gone that was there.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It worked.
At about 1AM the emergency spillway went dormant.
It's still a mystery what was seen to be eroding that was so concerning to officials.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/images/poster-1486961208.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=900:*
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I got a 404 to that link, but this is where I think they were concerned - I would have been.
Basically the end of the concrete ramp where the water from the rest of the area is funneling down, threatening to get behind the concrete wall.
Also very difficult to inspect until the water stopped.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I know sheriifs are deciding on the evacuations downstream, and that is (more or less reasonable) since they do have to respond if/when flooding occurs to their people.
(By the way. How many delta smelt have been washed out into the Pacific Ocean? Bet the newly-muddy river has none left in its banks.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Fixed the link but it's the same area you showed.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I've lived on the North Sea coast for most of my life and I've often thought that each time man builds something to defy Mother Nature it is a very one-sided fight we are entering into.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
30 to 60 fps depending on the cross section of flow. Lotsa energy there!
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
After this is all over, and soon, there needs to be some major redesign and construction of these spillways. I understand that the Oroville primary spillway was supposed to be able to pass 250,000 cfs, yet it couldn't cope with 100,000 cfs. In comparison, the Wivenhoe Dam on the Brisbane River above Brisbane has a reported primary spillway design capacity of 420,000 cfs, and this is on a much smaller catchment than Oroville.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
An interesting link to the Mercury News discussing how during the last FERC re licensing that the issue of erosion of the spillway was discussed and improvements not undertaken because the water users didn't want to pay the price. Smart move, in that now the taxpayers will.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/12/oroville-dam...
Obviously, there's a difference in perspective when the event might be imminent.
Perhaps some of the 6+ billion that the the California legislature set aside for dam reclamation and improvements will be tapped - if they can find where that money went. Or since California has asked for Federal aid for the flooding this can just be tacked on to that bill.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
compare several days of video and pictures.
On Saturday (11th) pictures you can see the road that cuts down slightly diagonally to the E-spillway.
That road runs across the entire E-spillway and then back up around to the recreational area.
That road was on a berm to get it level, well not dippy, it had slope. That berm created what is being called
a "catch basin". That basin filled up a couple of hours after the E-spill started. It didn't fill as quickly
as one would've guessed because the whole E-spill was in operation and most of the water wandered downhill
using many different paths.
But fill it inevitably did. Once it filled the rec-road became a secondary spillway. Being sloped though got
some concentrated flow on it and it quickly failed in it's short spillway life. Once the pavement left the
entire berm vacated in a very short time probably around an hour. This translated the "catch-basin" into a
shockingly large "hole" as the people onsite watched. Since this large hole is fairly close to the E-spill
it now gathers the lion's share of all the spill. Of course this focuses the erosion in the hole. At that
point the officials believed the erosion was progressing rapidly back towards the E-spill wall. The reality is
it was probably not as fast as they thought but more of a story allusion fed by the rapid transformation from
catch-basin to hole.
Anyway, the decision to really crank-up the primary-spillway was probably the best idea.
The helicopter rock bag delivery is to fill that "hole".
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Right! When in the history of public works projects has that result ever been avoided. "Hey, do you guys want to pay for this?", just never seems to work. Then again I suppose nobody ever wanted to increase user fees, or taxes to pay for it either. Can you imagine?
So back to lesson one. No taxes, or user fees (tolls, etc.) = no infrastructure.
Makes me wonder from where the 50 Americas Most Needed Infrastructure Improvements will materialize.
Popular Mechanics Article: 50 States, 50 Things America Must Fix Now
Edited to add this.
OK so this morning I woke up to hear that the USgov debt ceiling will be increased. That fits perfectly with the new administration's plan to build a trillion in infrastructure while they also propose to reduce taxes .... and kick the resulting "No money to fix breaking infrastructure problem" down the road. The more things change, the more they stay the same, just the swamp keeps getting bigger.
Reaction to change doesn't stop it
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
what we don't know is how deep the foundations of the wall go and what they are toed into, but much more loss of earth and they are in trouble.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?s=ORO
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
6 days of data
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Additionally, it's a bit unclear, after the fact, whether the spillway walls were tall enough. It looked to me that some water was going over the edges of the spillway, which might have hastened the erosion under the spillway and resulted in the gaping hole. I think they were about 15 ft shorter than they ought to have been.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Where are you seeing the 250K number?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Wikipedia, admittedly not the most reliable source. When I reported that yesterday, the number was 250,000. I was looking right at it when I typed. It has now been revised to 150,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oroville_Dam
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
On this link are the hands-down best dronage I've seen of this whole thing. The first video down the page is actually 5 back-to-back ones. In no particular temporal order you can see the entire E_Spill evolution and the birth of the Hole and it's finger snaking right back up to the spillway. Some have great sound even. The absolute mass of water that came over the E-spill is readily apparent where its not been on any other vids I've seen. It gives a sort of fascinating-horror feel.
The evacuation has ended.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
With predictions of more rain, it would certainly be within the scope of discussions as to how much more water can be released in order to allow for additional capacity in the dam versus holding water in the dam and hoping that the water level won't rise again.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Reaction to change doesn't stop it
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-orovil...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Time goes by and pretty quickly no one remembers the flooding and the original point of the entire thing. Furthermore, operational costs go up and up and up. So in an effort to get the dam to fund itself the dam's mission statement quickly evolves into providing water for irrigation and money thru energy sales. The flood control becomes a side-note.
Any bean-counter looking at it can't resolve operating costs with the state's savings from flooding disasters.
The changed mission demands more of a brinkmanship operation of how full can we keep the dam and can we end the rain season at 100%. This, of course, paves the way for disaster if exceptional rain occurs. Q.E.D.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
However, south-east Queensland had been in the grip of a major drought (is anything about this story ringing any bells with the situation in California?) for about seven years, which saw the dam at very low levels, until the drought broke in 2007. Being "drought resilient" was very high in the public and government perception in the years following, so the prevailing wisdom was to let the dam reach full supply level when runoff permitted, and maintain it as high as practical to Full Supply Level.
And then came the wet season of 2011 ...
And we're still trying to figure out the best way to use Wivenhoe for both flood prevention and drought mitigation.
Should we draw the dam down at the start of the wet season, to provide more than 1 1/2 million mega-litres of flood storage? What happens if the wet season "fails", and we hit another extended drought like 2000 - 2007?
Or should we take advantage of the wet season to top the dam up to its nominal Full Supply Level, and live with "only" 1 1/2 million mega-litres of flood storage "buffer"? What happens if we then get another wet season similar to (or wetter than) 2011?
And will these questions become even more crucial due to the effects of climate change? (Will our wet seasons get wetter, and / or our drought years become drier and longer?)
http://julianh72.blogspot.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Star for the post
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Reaction to change doesn't stop it
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Here is part of a paper on this subject and a portion about Ackerman.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Adolph+Ackerm...
The Google search also shows a number of other references for this famous engineer.
I will add one more part of the California Water project
https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1487177366/tips/Califoria_water_project_1_sip9jp.bmp
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
When I lived in OK the dams were for flood control, any other use was viewed as very low priority and there was enough backing to keep it that way.
In CA we have flood control, power generation, drinking water, AG irrigation, and recreation all fighting over how to operate the dams. Good luck.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Oroville Dam was part of the Central Valley Project, which was to control spring floods and provide a year-round water source for farming further south of the delta. As with most projects of this type, multi-functionality always sells better than single-functionality. Therefore, the ability to supply drinking water and generate electricity simply adds to the appeal of the project. The CVP plays a major role in allowing the southern half of the Central Valley to be part of the agribusiness of California.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The spillway failed at a third of its rated capacity. That seems like a pretty routine operation to me.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
As of this morning according to the local news, a drawdown of about 20 feet below the level of the emergency spillway had been attained.
I hope this will be getting close considering what is coming.
It will get interesting this weekend...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=BBX&pr...
If you're going to want to keep an eye eon this for any length of time, be sure to toggle ON the 'AutoUpdate' in the lower-right corner of the page.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Geology of the Oroville Quad
Geologic Map of the Chico Quad
Geology - Chico - LocalWiki
Reaction to change doesn't stop it
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
And it's crazy how fast that lake filled. It was at 720' in December.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Back in about 2008, Gladstone (a major industrial city in central Queensland) was getting very close to running out of water - being affected by the same extended drought that impacted Brisbane and Wivenhoe Dam, 500 km to the south. The major industrial consumers had been put on notice that their allocations from Awoonga Dam would be cut drastically in a few months. I was working on some big projects to reduce water consumption (e.g. installation of dry heat exchangers to replace conventional wet cooling towers, substitution of sea water cooling in place of fresh water, etc) which were being fast-tracked - orders for major equipment and stainless steel piping were placed before civil / structural design was beyond concept layout stage in several cases.
One Friday afternoon we got a phone call from the site office that it was "pi$$ing down" (a very Australian colloquialism!) and they were heading home.
The near-empty 770 giga-litre Awoonga Dam over-topped the spillway before Monday morning, and the projects were all cancelled within a week.
http://julianh72.blogspot.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2017-...
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If anyone can find any pre-2000 historical data that would be neat to see as well.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
No time for searching right now, but maybe there is something down this route
https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/rt
https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv
Reaction to change doesn't stop it
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
"California Department of Water Resources continues to examine and repair the erosion with construction crews working around the clock, placing 1,200 tons of material on the spillway per hour using helicopters and heavy construction equipment."
1,200 tons per hour = 2,400,000 pounds per hour or ~58 million pounds per day. Where do you find 58 million pounds of rock? I suppose it's better to look at it on a volume basis, that equates to about 13,000 cubic yards per day depending on what type of rock they are using. How much can one of those helicopters lift?
----------------------------------------
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Some really great information in this document here:
http://yubariver.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/10...
SHOCKED to learn that they had planned in the course of normal flood control operation to allow for water to surcharge 10' higher than the top of that emergency spillway
Look at what happened when they allowed a 2' surcharge
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
But I do admit that I have never seen our civil engineer work with tea spoons.
Sometimes it helps to look at what your working on so you get a since of scale.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
1200 tonnes of rock equates to around 50 trucks - so around 1 per minute.
To be fair that's a lot of trucks and not sure if they meant 1200 tonnes per day.
The choppers can't carry much , maybe 2-3 tonnes and cycle time is quite long so the heavy lifting is being done by the trucks.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If they were serious they'd be borrowing some CH-53's from the Marines, if any of them are currently air worthy that is.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Like dg, I work at the micro scale when it comes to PCB design... once in a while I need to actually pull a board out to remind myself how small those features I'm designing with actually are compared to what I see on the monitor. Helps to avoid mistakes when you remember how big/small something actually is.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Link
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The reduced flow may not be by partly closing the gates, but by the reduced head behind the gates...
I wonder what the elevation of the main spillway is?
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
"At the same time, the Department of Water Resources announced it was reducing flows down the dam’s main spillway as crews get ready to remove the large volume of debris that has fallen into the channel below."
I couldn't find (in my admittedly brief search) info on the gate elevation.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Ouch! More insult to the dam.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Interestingly this also gives section details of the spillway - looks rather simple to me.... No wonder they were worried. The section is noted later as being in the middle of the emergence spillway.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://yubariver.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/10...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
90 feet of head on a 33 foot high Radial Gate.
These must be some honkin' gates!
At elevation 855 or so where they are now, they still have 44 feet of head on the 33 foot gates.
You'd think that they have some lower sluice gates they could open too, but maybe not.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
"You measure the size of the accomplishment by the obstacles you had to overcome to reach your goals" -- Booker T. Washington
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Reaction to change doesn't stop it
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
A couple of photos from construction in 1963 which seem to support what you're suggesting: the underlying bedrock is heavily fractured:
http://pixel-ca-dwr.photoshelter.com/galleries/C00...
http://pixel-ca-dwr.photoshelter.com/galleries/C00...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I am just wanting to know.
I personally think they should keep the dam, as I am tired of hearing about the lack of water in states where they don't manage the water resources very well.
And I don't doubt that there maybe flaws in the design or construction of the dam or spillway, but the purpose seems sound in reducing flooding.
Otherwise we could declare the land down stream as not buildable for housing, and pay to buy the land, and to move those people.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The toe directly at the bottom of the emergency spillway looks very, very thin to be projecting out that far at the first point where the water coming over the top of the emergency spillway "bounces" off towards the river below. Not surprised the emergency spillway was a point of concern for erosion once it was over-topped.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The large helicopters are Sikorsky S-64E Sky Cranes - capacity 20k lifts. Probably contracted with Siller Brothers out of Yuba City.
In about 1963, there were a number of new smaller dams just being completed. This project was for the Oroville-Wynandot Irrigation District. There was a dam recently completed and empty. I believe it was called the Ponderosa Dam. The thinking at the time was that it would take two years to fill the dam. There was a heavy storm that came through and it filled the dam in one day. I was working for Guy F. Atkinson at the time and on another project when we heard that they had almost lost the dam. Apparently two of GFACO's people went up to the dam in the evening and discovered the almost full dam. There were large tainter gates that could be opened with electric motors. But the storm had taken out the electricity and the emergency generator wouldn't start. There was a large wheel (mayby 8 feet in diameter) that one could manually turn to open the gates but very slowly. Remember there wasn't mobile phones in 1963. The two fellows worked all night in heavy rain downpours to slowly open the gates and were able to release the water down the spillway. Within the company, these guys were hero's, but I do not know what their bonuses were like that year.
There is a report (which was sent to me) called: "Report on Feasibility of Feather River Project and Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta Diversion Projects - Proposed as Features of the California Water Plan." published May, 1951. It should provide quite a bit of background. Through some conversations I have heard was that some people did not want to do the project if there was people below the new dam.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39010887
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://sketchfab.com/models/a2e069b5196945b79d948...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
For the full article, which includes some additional graphics showing river levels throughout the greater Sacramento Valley, go to:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
of the overflow and the water was coming out the pipe a hundred yards away at the
bottom of the dam like a Devil's fire-hose. The road that goes around the
southern edge of the lake had a handful of creeks running across it that were a
foot deep. It provided a lot of pucker-factor in a Renault 10. I bet those creeks
are really ripping now.
As for the San Luis Reservoir... It has provided me with lots of interesting
learning experiences. As a kid in high school my dad dropped me off on a hundred
foot diameter island two hundred yards from shore. This was so I could sit in a
duck blind in the center of it with my 12 gauge in hopes of bagging some ducks.
To my horror I soon realized just how fast they could raise the level with their
pumped storage. I could see my fifty foot shore line shrinking by the minute.
I was starting to consider the swim to shore when my dad came back. My island was
about 10 feet in diameter when he returned. He thought my 2 hour torture was hilarious.
Recently I stopped at the visitors center with my son at 3am on the way back from Fresno
so we could relieve ourselves. Of course it was closed so we only made it half way to the
center barred by their gate. In desperation we jumped out into the star dazzling pitch dark
in a steady 40 mph wind.
We both learned that peeing in that much wind was a very bad idea, best described as
omni-peeing.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Oddly, San Francisco's beloved Hetch Hetchy Dam is not part of the state's water project, so statistics aren't listed there for it, but are here: https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?cb_00054=on&...
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If there is no downstream flooding and the public is not seen as being in danger, I really doubt that the average man-on-the-street will agree with you. Granted, among engineers and others like the present company, you might be able to make an argument that it belongs on some list of "Greatest Engineering Disasters" but that will be about it. As far as the media is concerned, as soon as the threat to life and limb was removed, so was their desire to cover the "disaster" since from their point of view, there was NO disaster and therefore NO news.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
But, it was through excellent design of the overall dam system that the severely damaged spill way posed little to no threat to the overall dam stability.
Then the emergency spillway was used in lieu of the damaged spillway instead. Not sure why. Maybe to limit the cost of repairing the damaged spill way this summer.
To me, the emergency spillway is the only thing that shows a true flaw in design. And, that's in a redundant system that was never supposed to be used. Though you could also say that this is something of a maintenance issue as the problem was identified 10 years ago.
Even then a failure of the emergency spillway wall doesn't jeopardize the overall stability of the main dam. It just means that 30 feet or so of water could be released. Enough to cause a major disaster and loss of life, for sure. But, not like what would happen if the main dam itself were to fail.
Overall, there is lots of impressive redundancy engineered into this system.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Apparently the power to the main spillway gates has been cut as the turbines are currently shut down pending debris removal downstream. This removal process necessitated disconnecting the turbines from the power grid, as well as the main spillway gates. So, except for any possible manual manipulation, they are stuck at 60,000 cfs or so for the moment.
Seems to be doing OK for the moment.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The power plant and dam still have power as the transmission line running across
the "party area" simply ties two substations together for redundancy and probably
to support summer cooling loads. Hence, they still can run the gates and start the
plant up whenever they can.
I wonder how the two barges and cranes that have been trying to remove the debris
from the tail-water bay are making out. No one ever seems to report on the nitty-
gritty. Someone should have a science reporter tagged to the mess.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
So are you saying that even with the turbines off line, the gates are able to draw power from another source on the grid?
I understood that the main transmission line from the powerhouse to the switchyard had been disconnected too, creating the situation I described.
There is so much ^&T^ here, I just do not know what to believe anymore.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
While a few are competent, too many science reporters haven't got a clue.
Excuse the interruption; carry on...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It would surprise me that there wasn't in-house emergency generation available to operate safety-critical equipment such as the penstocks, control systems, etc. Being on internal generator power obviously isn't ideal, but a whole lot of things in that plant are a long way from ideal. I'm not from a hydro plant background but internal generator backup is certainly normal with thermal, CCGT or nuclear plants.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
msquared48 at 21 Feb 17 23:03 wondered about how the spillway gates were being powered. If you go back to berkshire 21 Feb 17 17:33 post and watch the video you'll see where there are emergency generators providing power to the dam and the spillway gate mechanism. This should also answer ScottyUK 22 Feb 17 00:13 question.
As for the questions asked by itsmoked at 21 Feb 17 22:21 the video below should help with that as well as more discussion about the emergency generators and some good video showing the current level of the water in the dam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrz-U1yxOWM
And from what I've seen in his videos, this guy Juan Browne might also answer the issue highlighted by VE1BLL at 21 Feb 17 23:51 when he was asking if there might be a "competent" science reporter around. Now I don't know his background or if he's even an actual reporter, but so far he appears to be doing the job fairly well:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCphqjYZxxzjNbONVm...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
About the power, cripes. I watched on TV as an Oroville 'engineer' stated
that the power lines, "Only go between substations and do not affect power
plant operations".
It certainly is hard to see thru all the BS.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Also, reporters almost always get it wrong when it comes to reporting about the power industry.
Power transmission lines do go from substation to substation, and most power plants have an interface substation. The exception is if the power plant capacity is very small.
Some hydro plants have backup generation that is from the same source as the main generation, i.e. hydro. But if the tailrace level is too high, none of the generation can produce much output.
Assumption: If the main generation can't be used, and it's not from a lack of water behind the dam, then the tailrace water level might be too high. Question: Why is the tailrace water level so high?
Why is the water not flowing downstream?
Another possibility is the transmission lines/towers may have issues. Is it possible some of the transmission towers have been undermined?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
My biggest concern with this whole situation at the moment, is with the "fucntional", non-damaged portion of the spillway. The lower portion failed at 50,000 cfs, after a relatively short period of time at that flow rate. And after not having regularly been subjected to flows like that for some time. And for an undetermined reason.
They have been "stress testing" the rest of it for some time now, and will have to do so for the foreseeable future. How long can it hold up? If there is an insidious little crack growing, or cavitation eating away at something out of sight; we won't know about it until, well, we know about it. I would imagine they would really like to have a look at it in the near future.
Otherwise everything seems about as under control as it can be at this point.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://pixel-ca-dwr.photoshelter.com/galleries/C00...
For cranky Note the large "delta" in the river below the spilling water near the main spillway. That will be difficult to remove in a hurry.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrz-U1yxOWM
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Because it is leaking into the power plant?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
and to the immediate right is down to the tailway water, and spreading out to the left
is the PP switch yard.
If the water is lapping at the door in then it is also lapping at all the transformers
and switchgear.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Navigate to the next photo set using the green arrow:
This is the same plant after a cataclysmic accident in 2009: http://drugoi.livejournal.com/3032285.html
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If water is being channeled through the scroll case to the turbines, unless the impeller vanes can be closed completely, the turbines will turn, generating electricity. The vanes are usually fixed though.
Two other things:
1. Debris in the downstream channel could affect the tail water elevation, and
2. Debris in the water could damage the turbines if it entered the intake.
I am a little unclear where in the project the debris cleanup is occurring that closed the power plant.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Many years ago, an ice storm took took out a couple of towers on a 500 kV line feeding Vancouver Canada.
They brought in a couple of cranes and suspended cross arms with insulator strings in place of the downed towers.
I don't see it taking very long for a temporary connection to the grid, but anything that may raise the water level further may be the real issue with not being able to use the power plant.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Oh yeah! That spillway brings a whole new scale to hydraulic mining.
They should just request gold miners to come pan the debris field requiring them to dump the dross into dump trucks. It would all be removed in about a week.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Many floods have been caused by not keeping creeks and streams clear of trees. The problem being that because of the water table, the trees like to grow in those low areas.
On the other hand, the debris is limiting the amount of water downstream, which maybe good for those people as long as the earth and debris dams don't break.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Oroville Dam: What made the spillway collapse?
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/17/oroville-dam...
This item is a week old, but I can't recall anyone mentioning this specific issue previously. If they did, I apologize for offering something that has already been presented.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Don't discount cavitation. The failure seems to have started in an area of transition from laminar to turbulent flow, but we will see.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Or could it just be one or more bad pours of cement. Bad soil compaction, or something a little more simple.
It's likely we won't find out for several years, as those who know may not be talking about it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
<edit>
I did a crude measurement of the attached, and came up with 1524 ft for Glen Canyon Dam's right spillway, but the left one was the one mostly damaged
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Don't start any trouble with these guys. They're a lot stronger than they look.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
As Adam Savage (ex Mythbusters host) would say:
"Well, THERE'S your problem!"
http://julianh72.blogspot.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I'm eager to see the damage to the main spillway, after all this time of near-full water release.
CF
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Those buckets have to be empty. There's no way.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDVxoJjJFvG/
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lmYJAg3Evs
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://youtu.be/UyvDPt-HU3g
As said above... WOW...the power of moving water...
DWR Press Conference 2-27-17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL1bb8w04Qw
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It was doubly bad because when the water hit the break, it also went sideways and took out the terrain on the right side of the spillway, which allowed the hillside under the spillway a much easier egress from under the spillway
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The spillway, on the other hand, is to keep the reservoir from overtopping the dam
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
not just concrete in the few remaining areas that look erodable instead trying to refill
and re-create the original poorly functioning spillway?
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
My alma mater, North Carolina State University, followed that philosophy. Knowing what battles to take on with mother nature, and when to let her have her way, is an important piece of wisdom for any engineer.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The spillway was not functioning poorly until it failed. Up to that point, from what I understand, it worked just fine.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://youtu.be/GlSGDGTaCh0
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://cdec.water.ca.gov/histPlot/DataPlotter.jsp...
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
My wife did not want to buy them for him, but in the store he did the unthinkable, and she relented.
He got the new pants.
So goes a new spillway...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What other release are you referring to? I don't see any additional release in the data at:
https://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?s=ORO&d=01-Mar-2017+12:48&span=12hours
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Under the heading of;
STUFF HAPPENS.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://imgur.com/gallery/mpUge
oldestguy - A massive amount of hillside got moved. They can't begin to properly move it back or clear the river within days of the spillway being shut down...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
They need to address this like an open pit mine and really move some earth.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Seems reasonable to me.
Isn't that just a month? It would take more than a month to get open pit mine style equipment in place.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/california-cli...;
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Some specs from memory of one of the first machines used at the Syncrude operation.
Working radius; 360 Feet.
Bucket capacity: 85 Cu yards, more or less.
Weight; About 7000 tons.
Height to top of boom: 214 feet.
Width: about 100 feet.
Walking speed: About 1.5 miles per day.
Prime movers: 4 x 3000 HP synchronous motors.
Production: 100,000 Yards per 24 hour day.
Energy source: 25,000 Volt trailing cable.
Assembly time: Six to ten months.
The dragline on display north of Fort Mac' could be walked down to California in about 3 years.
You would need a really long cable and may have to wait for a number of highways and bridges to be extended to over 100 feet wide.
100,000 yards per day versus the present 60,000 yards per day.
This increase in eventual production may be hard to justify.
Let's just keep doing what we are doing for the next month or so.
https://tce-live2.s3.amazonaws.com/media/media/121ddd79-8aeb-4e3a-8cc2-b4970e94c0ca.jpg
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Top left chart: How'd they end up with a sub-zero inflow?
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Stuff like a Cat 992/3 loader and a 200-250t haul truck.
These are not uncommon, used in many smaller mine operations, some of which are not that far away.
As flat as mine work is I would think that there is idle equipment in the west.
So they are moving 2,000 cu yards a day (60k cu ft?), and they need to move 1.5 mill cuyds, that is 2 years of work.
Have they talked at all about long range plans? How they are going to re-build and reinforce the structure?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Those rates from the top left chart you posted look like release rates to me, not inflow rates.
Perhaps I am not looking at the correct chart?
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Incident Update
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It's not anymore. There was one day about 4 days ago that was about 200cfs BELOW ZERO. The vertical
auto scaling actually went to zero and the data point was below that.
Odd.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
A friend and I discovered this in the middle of the night when we were camping on a beach. We woke up just in time to avoid getting our sleeping bags flooded.
Not so sure about Oroville lake.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
See, I wasn't insane.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Seems like this is evidence that their hydrologic model is off.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.chicoer.com/article/NA/20170216/NEWS/17...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/river/res_ORO.html
It looks like they've got all the turbines (one is removed for repair) running today.
And. That means they can drain the dam faster than the inflow without using the main brokenway.
And. They cut it realllly close to their quasi-arbitrary 'we shall not exceed 860 feet' level, or 'we would have to use the spillway'.
This will mean the sheriff's "I won't lift the warning until this list of conditions has been reached" list
is, I believe, now covered.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I don't understand how they even have a semi-real-time inflow figure for this reservoir. It has at least four major inflow arms and countless minor streams, all of which are flowing significantly after the frog chokers they have experienced all winter. There can't be stream gauges on all of them, so they are either leaving them out (which would account for the unexplained increase) or guessing at them, and possibly getting them wrong.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
large ones and negative ones appear then disappear. Probably a human checking and adjusting the
horribly noisy data IR showed us back a few days ago.
John; On a billion dollar reservoir I can easily see multiple flow meters on even the tiniest contributor.
They also have the absolute final word via the reservoir depth and the fact that they probably have very
accurate outflow sensors. That probably allows them to correct any inflow flyers confidently.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Let us keep Bernouli on the side for the moment, and bring Uncle Newton in. That area is below the curve in the spilway. The water want to continue straight, but eventually gravity will win,slamming that water mass down on the concrete.
Now the big problem. One never ever pour high load bearing concrete directly on bedrock,unless you dowl deep or pile support it. That concrete starts to "hop" on the bedrock and the cavitation hammers it away from the top.the result, a total failure of the concrete itself. Now the demolition continue on the bedrock.
That bedrock should have been removed way back, and layer filled that base foundation,compact each layer to 98 % mod, built it up for about 3 meters. Only then cast the concrete and build the spillway. Secondly, add synthetic fiber as additional re-inforcement in the concrete at a dose of about 5kg/m3,will reduce the amount of expansion joints and give the air bubbles less bite on the edges of the individual concrete slaps.
My 2 pennies for what it is worth.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Not a structural guy or engineering historian but would that technique have been available when the spill way was built?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Maybe they could have coated the whole thing in Flex Seal and called it a day. If they can cover a 1950's era pickup truck in the stuff and make it a submarine surely it is up to the task.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spillway#/media/File...
Designed and built in 1880, but apparently still standing 100+ years later. People (not just our US Dept. of Reclamation - see Glen Canyon dam spillway erosion problems recurring as late as the 1983 floods) are still underestimating cavitation and erosion rates on spillways. Arrogance or ignorance, dunno which.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
No argument from my side. Well,whatever, going to be a very costly 3 months.I wonder what the cost is up to now since all this started this year.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
First, clearly the problem (failure of the concrete surface and substructure) ON and ABOVE the surface of the spillway walls at high flows is not being solved now, nor was it correctly approximated and solved in the past assumptions and construction. The combination of huge (but constantly, instantaneously varying) turbulent impact forces, combined with small but also continuously varying cavitation forces (the vacuum formation, then rapid re-collapse and micro-shocks as the bubbles re-form and re-collapse) is immense - and not be solvable at all even with today's higher-speed computational fluid dynamics FEA models. But even that is telling: If we cannot even determine consistently with the "pure theory" of these massive water flows, how do you design a system to withstand them under emergency conditions? If the models are not "accurate" to a sufficient degree to predict the specific multiple failures we see worldwide when the spillways are used at high flows, how do you re-design existing spillways to prevent a future loss? If "testing" breaks the spillways that are tested, you have to rely on the CFD models to go forward.
Second, the failure inside the walls between the impact and cavitation are not being absorbed reliably in what was the original (and repaired) concrete, rebar, and steel liner designs. Here at Oroville, if the mid-span conrete and rebar were adequate, the spillway would not have torn in half between the upper curve (a lower flow pressure area), and the lower straight discharge region with its spray breaks. Instead, the spillway floor tore out at the concrete expansion joint/construction joint.
Third, the failure BELOW the walls and floors between the spillway concrete and the rock below. Maybe that is inevitable: After all, if you don't know the underlaying material and so cannot estimate how much strength is needed to support the open "spans" between good support and weak support areas under the concrete being pounded by unknown forces from above, you can't design and pour the concrete around the any rebar network strong enough to absorb the blows. But, how many existing dams worldwide have been properly surveyed and prepared underneath? Almost as soon as the Hoover Dam was filling, the poured "joint" between the dam and the rock underneath began needing repairs and grout to seal leaks, strengthen the rock against tearing forces.
The tunnel walls under Hoover used steel liners to define the flow lines and reduce turbulence in the original bypass tunnels, which were then plugged at the mid-point and adapted as spillway tunnels. Expensive, but those liners might be needed many places.
Here, bare concrete over bad rock failed even before significant emergency flows were needed in a spillway - for a dam designed 30+ years after Hoover. Doesn't speak well for "lessons learned" and "better design analysis" for the dam industry over the slide rule era. Now, in the computer era, what else do we "not know we don't know"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
As for your comments, racooke, agree mostly - except that the use of stepped (aerated)/baffled/energy-dissipating spillways has been a thing since 1880 at least. One can only surmise arrogance and ignorance of the designers precluded such designs at Oroville.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I don't think the root cause is repeating history that you didn't study, or even arrogance; it's simple economics. A straightish chute is certainly cheaper to build than any sort of stepped structure, and the MBAs who typically end up steering projects would openly scoff at any assertion that tiny bubbles could eat concrete, and publicly deride any engineers who spoke up, while secretly figuring that:
- thanks to drought, the original design would 'function' long enough to deflect blame.
- once the used food hit the fan, the problem would be big enough to justify emptying bigger pockets.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
... MBA's again, where's Snorgy?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Link to the KARIBA project. Problem described on page 16
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/irmsa.site-ym.com/resour...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
But... The "theory" of massive, unconstrained random and turbulent (but I repeat myself, don't I ) water flows down a "simple" spillway MUST BE better evaluated, or we will lose the dams right at the very point when they are at extremely high levels with uncontrollable waters going down the spillway.
Compare it to a high pressure boiler or pressure vessel. Two relief valves are mandated by law, and by common sense. By law and by common sense, we do not operate pressure vessels above their maximum design pressure. BUT.
We cannot "regulate" water flows during flood conditions into a dam. We can, at best, make estimates of the maximum expected water flow and maximum expected snow pack levels and maximum allowed water levels before the rain begins and before the snow pack begins accumulating. We cannot "stop" the flood before, during over after the rainfall, nor prevent more water from coming downstream into an overloaded dam. We have a "pressure vessel" that - basically - is uncontrollable.
But that "pressure vessel" has been built with a relief valve that not only has never been tested under real world conditions, but cannot be tested before it is needed, and consistently, when that "approved officially designed" relief valve HAS BEEN used, it fails more often than not in most of the dams around the world!
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It seems to me that the damage had to have been from the drought and the heavy rains this year that undermined the spillway, just simply because there hadn't been any sort of flow that would have experienced much cavitation prior to 2/7, going all the way back to 2006
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
A year ago, during the 2015/2016 rainfall season, we were supposed to get an unseasonable amount of rain due to the so-called 'El Nino' effect, but it never really materialized. The levels of the major reservoirs were allowed to fall in anticipation of the heavy rainfall that never came and so it was a struggle all summer to keep water available for the farmers and the municipal water districts (which some politicians used to make their case, particularly with farmers, for getting rid of state and federal water conservation rules, with one candidate going so far as to say that if elected he would simply declare the drought over which would solve everyone's problems). Then when the rains started this past fall, the state's water managers gave orders to allow the reservoirs to fill again so that could capture as much of this early rainfall as possible in anticipation of another dry year like that last several, but as we all know now the rains continued to come in and much heavier than anyone expected, and before you knew it, places like Oroville were topping out. Granted, perhaps someone should have been keeping a better track of what was happening and been quicker to adjust their assumptions but looking back on what we had experienced statewide the last 5 or 6 years you can't help but have at least a little sympathy for the water managers and what they were confronted with. I hate to state what some will suggest is a pun, but what we had here was a "Prefect Storm".
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Note that I've read several of his books including 'To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design' and 'Design Paradigms: Case Histories of Error and Judgment in Engineering' both of which included extensive discussions about the limitations imposed on public works projects and how engineering failures are often the result of compromises having been made by public officials and/or to live within the funding of such projects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Petroski
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
nobody would be able to buy the project, the best they could do would be to get out of somebody else's way. Even better, with a good field of bidders, would be ignore the bottom and top bids and then take the bid
closest to the median (or mean) of the remaining bids. At that point you're getting somebody that spent some time trying to understand the project and put some effort into trying to coming up with a number that
makes sense. It seems to me that it would be impossible to game that without extensive collusion among (nearly) all of the bidders.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Of course, doing so objectively and thoroughly is pretty tricky.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The most successful major project tender evaluations that I have seen have split the process into two teams - Technical Evaluation, and Commercial Evaluation.
Bids are received in two separate packages - Commercial, and Technical.
The Technical Evaluation team don't know the prices of the bids they are looking at - they simply assess whether the Tenderer has the capacity to undertake the work, whether the bid is conforming, and if not, whether the non-conformance is acceptable. If it is considered to be unacceptable, a request is sent out for a revised offer which conforms with the requirements - and again, any price adjustment is passed on to only the Commercial Evaluation team, NOT the Technical Evaluation team. If a non-conforming offer is deemed acceptable, all Tenderers will be notified of the nature of the non-conformance, to allow them to adjust their offers so as to not be disadvantaged. Only conforming or acceptable bids are considered further.
The Commercial Evaluation team assesses only the contractual and commercial matters, including any price adjustments required to bring the bid to technical conformance. Any bid which has suspect commercial capacity, IR, Safety, QA, etc is eliminated from the evaluation process.
Only bids which are both technically sound and commercially sound are left on the table - and the lowest-priced, commercially acceptable, technically-acceptable bid wins the contract.
This process has worked very well on large projects I have seen (power stations, dams, etc), but it does require a level of competence and diligence that seems to be missing in many public projects these days.
http://julianh72.blogspot.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Consider a vendor who perhaps proposes a design with a higher life or some such spec beyond the minimum required for a relatively small price delta compared to a company that barely meets all specs for a slightly lower price.
There's a good chance the former is actually better 'value' but even your process may not appreciate that.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
One of the examples that Petroski used in his book was the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge (AKA "Galloping-Gerty") in Washington state. Up until that bridge was built NOT a single large suspension bridge had ever failed. And NO large suspension bridge has failed that was constructed AFTER they learned why the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge failed. After nearly 60 years of successful construction of suspension bridges, starting with the Brooklyn Bridge in 1883, with each subsequent suspension bridge becoming more elegant and lightweight, until 1940 when the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge was finished. It doesn't take much of an expert to look at how suspension bridges evolved over that 60 year time span to see that Petroski's thesis has been borne out.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Although the model presented may have a couple of 'holes' it appears to be a basis to work from. It is much better than the 'lowest bid' approach.
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Examples from aerospace/defense that I'm aware of
> We bid against a competior for the very last buy of a large subsystem and underbid the competior by a significant amount, and they had never built anything in that class of subsystem before. Nevertheless, they won, and wound up having to get help from us afterwards. CYA says that we were a totally bad risk for the contracting officer in charge because we had just gotten fined for falsification of test records in the year leading up to the RFP.
> We bid on a system and were probably 50% higher than the incumbent, but we won. CYA says that the incumbent had serious issues in the past, and we were later told by the customer that our proposal was substantially superior to the incumbent's, particularly in the area of a single KPP that was actually erroneously specified by the customer, which we caught and proposed a much tighter requirement that was correct for the intended application.
> In one case, our dreaded BD folks decided to drastically underbid on an effort that we had previously briefed a higher amount to the customer. The contracting officer did not do their due diligence, and didn't listen to CYA and awarded us the contract, which we promptly overran. The contracting officer was summarily fired from the program, although our BD folks escaped unscathed. To make it worse, the contracting officer took his windfall and funded a competitor, who later ate our lunch, and the program itself wound up getting mothballed.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Another fun read I covered at about the same time, while not directly related to this incident, was Mark Eberhardt's 'Why Things Break: Understanding the World By the Way It Comes Apart'. It was a good bridge for me to a better understanding of the principles of materials science.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
How well was the spillway inspected for damage after the prior usages, and were repairs made? How good were the repairs?
This is an open flow channel at a very steep grade, flow will be supercritical at almost any discharge (see the capillary waves running down the slope at near-shutoff when the inspectors are futzing in the chasm?), velocities of the flow will be high enough, somewhere on that steep grade, to reach cavitation at small surface aspherities. I.e., it's a given, not a maybe. The thing would have to be smoother than glass to avoid cavitation, and even then I'd not be certain.
I don't disagree that other factors could be involved (subsidence of underlying layers, lack of reinforcement, loss of seal at expansion joints...) but without due consideration of fluid mechanics, fixes that ignore it won't work.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Instead of a high-speed small boat continuously but steadily "bouncing" off of a still (ideally smooth) water surface, you'd have a still surface with a high-speed water flow going over it.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If the instruction to bidders contains the methodology for acceptance, it may be easier to disqualify an unsuitable bidder. The owner can be exposed to litigation without a 'real' reason for rejecting a bid, after a contractor has invested a substantial cost in preparing it.
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It's actually trivial to reject proposals; we recently got rejected because of a nitnoid in the presentation of a part of the cost data. That could have likewise been trivially
fixed, had the customer been interested in keeping us in the competition. Any halfway decent boilerplate will have lots of opportunities to miss a requirement that can get you rejected.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
area it failed. Everywhere else it was about 3 feet thick but right-of-center it looked to be only about
half that.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Note that the side wall discharges from the under-slab herringbone drainage system ran pretty full. The crappy sections of "rock" under easily eroded from seepage water that leaked down through the many cracks and joints. Note now they are trying to seal those cracks., More band-aid type repairs rather than a full replacement and correction of the poor zones underneath.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Two issues I have with this design or rather, end product. sometimes the design and end product separate paths due to financial issues.
The emergency spillway seems to be more or less at the same height as the whole area where the parking area is. What bothers me about this.?
1. Whatever water flows downhill in a uncontrolled way, will cause erosion parallel to the mount of water and time period.It is as if somebody decided that there will never ever be a need for water to flow over it. Big mistake when it comes to us nature of harnessing nature. If you do not plan and most important,spend good money on your idea, nature will win,time and time again.
My solution, lower the emergency spillway be two or three feet and side channel it into the main shute. Unless they apply cosmetics all the way down, this will cause problems, if not serious corrosion,still mud into the river,oh,then they need to catch all the fish below again to save them.
Main shute. Two issues I have. Not so much volume but the change in angle halfway down. Use specialized methods and remove some of the rock formations, reduce the curve radius, pay attention to energy dissipation and create a proper still basin that do not obstruct the flow from the powerhouse if max water is released.
Will still be miles cheaper then all the money this issue cost up to now,and which can and will repeat itself with their band-aid repairs(quote toe word from a previous poster who nailed it).
Lets just take the evacuation in its own. The loss of income and all other issues and expenses.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
"Stepped spillways, consisting of weirs and channels, have been used for over 3,500 years since the first structures were built in Greece and Crete...........
Although the stepped spillway design was common up to the beginning of the 20th century, a lot of expertise has been lost since, and the present expertise is limited to very simple geometries, namely some flat horizontal stepped prismatic chutes, despite some recent interest in stepped spillway design."
Those who do not learn the lessons of history.........
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Water flowing over a lip will create a certain curvature determined by gravity. My understanding, from earlier hydrology courses, was that the shape of the concrete spillway should mimic a curve equivalent to 0.8 to 0.9 of the gravity value to ensure that the water has a direct positive bearing contact with the concrete and cavitation is avoided. Alternatively, the spillway should have energy absorbing blocks to create turbulence. (Caveat - did all my undergrad work in hydraulics, but, have not worked in that field).
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQe0J5NLLT4
Some highlights. They can only operate at 40,000 to 50,000 cfs now. Less than that and they have too much headcutting. More than that and well...
They shored the whole thing up with grout, crack sealing, and rock bolting. The latter focused on stabilizing the left wall which had started to show some movement.
They have a burn rate right now of about five million dollars per day.
They are evaluating two alternatives for the long term repair, and have already mobilized rock crushing and concrete batch plants. They expect to have a design finalist in two weeks. The new spillway may have much less capacity which will limit their ability to use the reservoir for water supply.
The power plant has to be taken offline during spillway operation as the tailwater still rises too high.
They expect to have 3-4 more releases like this over the course of the spring.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Looking at the top left graph of ORO inflow can anyone explain to me how these major daily fluctuations occur? I can only
imagine one slow increase/decrease over 24 hours and don't know why there would many large excursions a day. I don't
recall ever seeing a river flow go up and down 400% several times a day.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The long graphs show what the general trends look like:
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/jspplot/jspPlotServlet.js...
The graph your link pulls up is a 24-hr graph. The daily flows show fairly consistent behavior:
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/jspplot/jspPlotServlet.js...=
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I'm realizing that it's not just the Feather River but actually the Feather River and several tributaries all
running thru the Sierras that add to make the flow reading. I'm thinking the daily warm up / freeze down would be
affecting all the various tributaries at pretty much the same time every day but the actual time the water takes to
travel the hundred mile type distances could have a prior high flow at a particular drainage showing up many hours
later causing various staggered patterns at the near reservoir flow sensor.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I was in the very first group in the morning and we had the strangest experience. When we pulled up to the river to get into our boats, the river was raging like any other whitewater rafting river. As we paddled downstream everything seemed normal, but when we rounded one of the river bends we could see the entire downstream river bed was bone dry. We had caught up to the leading edge of the water flow! We had to pull into an eddy for about 15 minutes before we continued down the river. We had to do this about 3-4 more times during our run as we kept catching up to the flood.
Fun river otherwise, just a strange experience.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqADyf9l99I
I realize that I'm posting this while the sun has just set in Northern California but perhaps tomorrow morning it will be worth watching.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
"Chute Spillway [Gated Spillway]. The chute spillway [Gated Spillway] has operated many times since its completion in 1968. Although the floor of the spillway chute [Gated Spillway] in this section has experienced a good deal of spalling and cracking, there has been no significant damage. The cracks and spalls have been repaired several times."
I.e. the floor of the spillway has been accumulating damage (spalls and cracks) every time it is run, likely from cavitation. "No significant damage" is a phrase that just sets off alarm bells for me, it is just too similar to the language used by NASA prior to (and in some cases after) the Columbia shuttle disaster. "It hasn't failed catastrophically yet"
Underfloor leakage (side drains run full when the spillway gates are opened) and subsidence is also noted, but the source of that water is not clear, but is likely moving through cracks and leaking expansion joint seals along the floor of the spillway. I.e. cavitation damage leads to leakage, leads to subsidence and further slab breakup, more cavitation and erosion, and a literal cascading disaster develops...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DJpwr57pAY
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Oroville Update 29 March
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.enr.com/articles/41664-how-to-fix-orovi...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Isn't the emergency spillway part of the dam? When the wall was overflowing and it appeared earth around the wall was washing away, was it not conceivable that the wall could have failed? No-one could see what was happening exactly or what damage was being done while it was overflowing. Should the authorities have erred on the side of caution or not?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The failure concern was only the wall height between the normal spillway and the emergency spillway, which would have released 30 ft of water. The "dam" itself was going to be intact, retaining a few hundred feet of water that's below the normal spillway.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
the entire Oroville staff understands the dam to be the actual man made gravity dam. Their
hackles go up every time someone sez the dam was about to fail as it wasn't ever about to fail.
Meanwhile, others consider "the dam" to be the entire reservoir containment. The 'reservoir
containment' was indeed threatening to fail due to foot cutting while the emergency spillway was
running - enough of a threat to panic evacuate 150k people.
And, "only the top 30 feet" is a total joke as having 'only' a million acre feet of water rushing
uncontrolled across any part of the reservoir's containment would have cut clear to the bottom exactly
like the main spillway's misguided water did.
BTW:
Oroville Update!! 4 April A closer look at the spillway
And
Oroville 6 April Update New Drone Footage and Press Briefing
Which announces today's 2 o'clock PST press briefing by the DWR.
Very cool drone footage!
That press briefing by the DWR is in 20 minutes!
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If that spillway wall did fail, does anyone here actually believe the earth below wouldn't be eroded as that much water washed uncontrolled over that area? There is no possible way anyone can say that if the wall had failed that "only" water the height of the wall would be released.
And even if the earth miraculously wasn't eroded, does anyone here actually believe that only 30' water quickly leaving the reservoir wouldn't be considered a catastrophic failure of the dam? A dam is basically a structure built to hold back water, so I consider the overflows as part of the dam.
oldestguy - yes, he made it out to be simple to fix, when it's not. I really didn't find it a big surprise after his rather dubious claim right off the top.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
What is wrong with building a new spillway away from the old one - would that not allow the old spillway to operate if the new one is (inevitably) delayed in completion?
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Scroll down front page
http://www.sacbee.com/
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-...
OROVILLE
State officials sketched a two-year recovery plan Thursday for the battered Oroville Dam spillway, revealing a blueprint that's far from complete, still in need of a price tag and certain to leave the structure partially damaged as the next rainy season approaches.
The plan unveiled by the Department of Water Resources will proceed in phases and won’t be finished until 2018. Notably, the giant ravine that's been carved out of a nearby hillside, the result of water boiling out of the fractured spillway in recent weeks, could be used again next winter to handle excessive water releases.
Nonetheless, Acting DWR Director Bill Croyle said the 3,000-foot-long chute will be functional next winter.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-...
The repair plan was released nearly two months to the day after a giant crater erupted in the dam's main spillway, eventually triggering a crisis that forced the temporary evacuation of 188,000 residents.
Croyle acknowledged the plan is a work in progress.
“We have a little less than a 60 percent design,” he told reporters. Nonetheless, the project is being circulated among four contracting firms, and DWR expects to execute a contract by April 17. The firms weren’t identified.
“We’re moving as fast as we can. We need this (contract) in a matter of hours or days, not weeks or months,” Croyle said.
Croyle said he was unable to provide a cost estimate beyond his original projection nearly two months ago that it would take up to $200 million to repair the structure. President Donald Trump made a disaster declaration over the weekend that’s expected to free up approximately $274 million in federal funds for Oroville repairs, although much of that money is being spent on debris removal and other functions not directly tied to repairing the spillway.
Gov. Jerry Brown moved to expedite the project Thursday, signing an executive order that waives state environmental laws and other red tape. Nonetheless, Croyle said DWR will be as sensitive as it can to environmental issues as work progresses.
The crater that erupted Feb. 7 essentially split the concrete spillway in two. Water gushing down the spillway, misdirected by the giant chasm, carved an enormous ravine in a nearby hillside.
Croyle said DWR plans to leave the ravine in place this year. It could serve as a kind of auxiliary outlet in case the reservoir is rising too high and the concrete structure, despite its repairs, can’t handle excessive water flows.
The lower spillway itself will be “demolished and replaced” over the summer, said DWR chief engineer Jeanne Kuttel. “It will be stronger than it was before,” she said. The state plans to use quick drying “roller compacted concrete” on the lower portion of the structure, she said.
Croyle and Kuttel said the upper portion of the spillway, although undamaged, might be partially or completely replaced this summer as well. However, recent geotechnical studies have shown much of the upper spillway is thicker than previously believed, and might not have to be replaced, Croyle said.
Croyle acknowledged that plenty of work will be left over to 2018. That includes building higher retaining walls alongside the concrete chute to handle extremely high flows.
OROVILLE MAIN SPILLWAY REPAIR PLAN
Multiple designs remain under consideration because of uncertainty about how spring weather will affect the construction timeline.
Diagram of spillway repair plan Source: Calif. Dept. of Water ResourcesNATHANIEL LEVINE nlevine@sacbee.com
Meanwhile, he said DWR plans to partially line the adjacent emergency spillway with concrete this summer – a first for the structure.
The emergency spillway turned out to be the weak link in the February near disaster.
After the main spillway fractured, it was shut down temporarily for inspection. Inflows from a heavy rainstorm spiked water levels at Lake Oroville to unprecedented levels, and water poured over the emergency spillway – a concrete apron perched atop a hillside – for the first time since the reservoir opened in 1968.
A day later, engineers discovered that the hilllside was eroding so badly that the concrete apron might crumble, unleashing a “wall of water” into the Feather River below. That sparked the evacuation of 188,000 downstream residents Feb. 12 until lake levels receded and the situation stabilized.
Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea, who ordered the evacuation, said he was encouraged with the progress on the repairs. “We’re moving from an emergency crisis management mode to a recovery mode,” he said. “We are in a much, much better position today than we were on Feb. 12th.”
Croyle said DWR, in consultation with the sheriff, won’t make bid documents public because they’re considered “critical energy infrastructure information,” and could be used to create “harm and havoc.” DWR cited the same explanation for sealing several investigatory documents with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission last month. FERC licenses the dam and is overseeing the repair effort.
An earlier document, from a team of consultants hired by DWR to advise on the repairs, said fixing the spillway in one year would be nearly impossible because of design flaws and the severity of the damage. The report was the first sign that repairs would continue beyond 2017.
Croyle said that first report “shouldn’t have been made public” and DWR will make sure future reports by the consultants stay sealed.
Paul Tullis, an engineering consultant from Utah who has studied spillway designs, said DWR's approach to the repairs seems reasonable, given the impossibility of completely fixing the structure in time for the next rainy season.
"There's only so much they can repair in a half a year or so," Tullis said. "They can only do what they can do."
Tullis said it will be critically important to monitor the hillside next to the main spillway next winter if DWR has to let more water flow through the recently-carved ravine. If too much of the hillside gets washed away, it could potentially harm the earthen wall of the dam itself, he said.
The spillway has been shut off since March 27 for temporary repairs. As raindrops fell outside the giant tent where he briefed reporters, Croyle said he believes the upcoming storm won't raise lake levels to uncomfortable levels, even with the spillway not releasing any water.
He added that the spillway will probably be used once or twice more this spring, depending on how heavy the runoff gets as the Sierra snowpack melts. Before long DWR plans to shut it down for good to begin the major repairs.
Dale Kasler: 916-321-1066, @dakasler
MY FEED
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
That presumes that it's "earth." The dam itself is earth-filled, but the spillway is on part of the original landscape, which is rock, some crumbly, some not.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Whatever you wish to call the earth/rock/soil/dirt in that area, it quickly eroded both when the main spillway failed and while water flowed over the emergency spillway. To me, it seemed rather obvious that it would also erode if a 30' high wall of water 1700' long started washing over it, leading to far more water then the often quoted 30' actually being released.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
I just lost a lot of respect for Croyle with his moronic, "Croyle said that first report “shouldn’t
have been made public” B.S.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Wet winter sets precipitation record in Northern California
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-califo...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://documents.latimes.com/report-finds-serious-...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.usbr.gov/tsc/techreferences/designstan....
Page 3-160 is very interesting because Oroville get very very hot.
There is a wealth of information in the Bureau's document because it shows other failures. I worked on the construction of the spillway of Mangla Dam in 1963-64, but don't know what the spillway thickness was. Tarbela Dam which was constructed a few years later appears to have had a spillway thickness of 24".
On page B-9 is the cavitation damage at Glen Canyon spillway tunnel. I had not seen this before but our firm provided the design for the work platform on the slope (Guy F. Atkinson project). For some reason I was told that the damage was in the ceiling so seeing the damage at the bottom of the tunnel was a unpleasant surprise.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
it a day. That would reduce the prep time to almost nothing so they could complete it all in a month
or two. It would look naturally great and there won't be any cavitation since the water breaks
somewhere about every 5 feet.
Admit it, it's a brilliant plan.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
If you don't want to wade thru the entire report Juan does a pretty nice job of hitting the salient points in under 15 minutes.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.rdmag.com/news/2017/06/engineers-use-r...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://csengineermag.com/article/the-omen-of-orovi...
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Jaun Brown Oroville Channel
Video 44 pretty much kicks off the rebuild.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/oroville-california-dam-spillway-model-repair
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
His latest report was filmed this past Thursday, July 27th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtmpaUYqW4
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
As usual he has lots of interesting sidelights in all his reports.
Juan's Channel starting on May 23
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-A0eTuu3s
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-...
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RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZNNYRpp1k0&fe...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F9irn-u6no&fe...
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zFkgb1cmgg&fe...
Dik
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The total emergency is expected to cost $600 million or more. State officials expect the federal government to cover most of the cost, with leftover expenses to be shouldered by Metropolitan and other members of the State Water Project.
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
There were already many federal dams, but the bureau of reclamation is prohibited from constructing and operating dams and water conveyances for the purpose of drinking water supply. Oroville Dam was constructed by the state to provide drinking water as the Colorado river allocations could no longer keep up with growth. Since the dam was built, the customer base supplied by Oroville dam has grown to 20 million people.
It's not like this is an impossible sum for people to pay back over the next several years. We're talking a grand total of $600 per person served.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlbQHtW74WU&fe...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
The Bureau of Reclamation is not prohibited from constructing and operating dams and water conveyance for the purpose of drinking water supply. They completed the Animas La Plata Project in 2011 in southwest Colorado. This project consisted of the construction of an off channel 125,000 acre-foot reservoir and a pump station on the Animas River. It is only for municipal and industrial water supply purposes. Each project that Reclamation constructs has to be authorized and funded by Congress.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
It soundly condemns the DWR for systemic management and planning failures. Also, the selected primary designer back in the original design phase was a new-hire. He had never designed spillways before, and his work was not challenged nor adequately reviewed. Basically, the spillway had never failed before because it had never been used before.
There were many opportunities to intervene and prevent the incident, but the overall system of interconnected factors operated in a way that these opportunities were missed. Numerous human, organizational, and industry factors led to the physical factors not being recognized and properly addressed, and to the decision-making during the incident. The following are some of the key factors which are specific to DWR:
• The dam safety culture and program within DWR, although maturing rapidly and on the right path, was still relatively immature at the time of the incident and has been too reliant on regulators and the regulatory process.
• Like many other large dam owners, DWR has been somewhat overconfident and complacent regarding the integrity of its civil infrastructure and has tended to emphasize shorter-term operational considerations. Combined with cost pressures, this resulted in
strained internal relationships and inadequate priority for dam safety.
• DWR has been a somewhat insular organization, which inhibited accessing industry knowledge and developing needed technical expertise.
• DWR’s ability to build the appropriate size, composition, and expertise of its technical staff involved in dam engineering and safety has been limited by bureaucratic constraints.
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCgrXPB6Zeg
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVu8i7UYU5U&fe...
RE: Oroville Dam Spillway Concrete Failure (Feather River Flooding, CA)