Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
(OP)
Good evening everyone,
A question regarding the use of piping arrangements (piping general arrangements, orthos, piping plans, or whatever you like to call them). Are they a thing of the past? Are they just an additional unnecessary extra cost? It was my understanding that with today's CAD software and the use of 3D models, that piping arrangement drawings do not provide the same value or benefit as they once did.
However, when I brought this point up, I was met with disbelief from other disciplines who stated that they did not understand how a project could be built without them. I told them that with the use of 3D models, a contractor had the ability to see the entire project and the ability to pan around at all angles to understand the arrangement better than a plan view of the piping. The response I received was, "Contractors do not always have computers or laptops with them."
In today's day and age of technology I found it hard to believe that contractors do not have the means to view a 3D model, whether by laptop or on-site office. That does not, however, mean that I am right. I could very well just be making a wrong assumption. So I would like to hear other opinions on this subject. Are piping arrangements a thing of the past? Or are they still commonly used?
Thanks for all the input.
Dustin
A question regarding the use of piping arrangements (piping general arrangements, orthos, piping plans, or whatever you like to call them). Are they a thing of the past? Are they just an additional unnecessary extra cost? It was my understanding that with today's CAD software and the use of 3D models, that piping arrangement drawings do not provide the same value or benefit as they once did.
However, when I brought this point up, I was met with disbelief from other disciplines who stated that they did not understand how a project could be built without them. I told them that with the use of 3D models, a contractor had the ability to see the entire project and the ability to pan around at all angles to understand the arrangement better than a plan view of the piping. The response I received was, "Contractors do not always have computers or laptops with them."
In today's day and age of technology I found it hard to believe that contractors do not have the means to view a 3D model, whether by laptop or on-site office. That does not, however, mean that I am right. I could very well just be making a wrong assumption. So I would like to hear other opinions on this subject. Are piping arrangements a thing of the past? Or are they still commonly used?
Thanks for all the input.
Dustin





RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
http://pipingdesigners.com/forum/the-technical-for...
Thank you for your insight Mike.
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
But on a cold winter day when the building has not been dried in yet, and the wind chill is below zero, I cannot see a contractor, who can barely feel his fingers without his gloves, maneuvering the mouse to follow where the piping is supposed to be.
2d plans will never totally go away.
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
In a field environment, they will still need a routing drawing, or at least a printout of a screenshot from the model with the line highlighted- it is incredibly valuable in visualizing how things are supposed to go together.
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
As for all those v important Notes on drawing - where do they exist in a model??
In the main site office / accessible from the filed its great to use to solve site issues and provide some guidance, but not as use for site construction.
IMHO.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
You wrote: "Are piping arrangements a thing of the past? Or are they still commonly used?"
The answer to your question is actually both Yes AND No!
Very Large Projects for Very Large Clients done by Very Large Engineering Companies can and will lean toward not using Piping Plans and Sections and will install a 3D Work Station at the Jobsite.
Smaller projects done for any size Client done by Small to Medium sized Engineering Companies will still lean toward producing Piping Plans and Piping Section Drawings.
What drives this issue on projects?
- Money! How tight is the Clients Budget?
- Project Type! Is it a Grass Roots/Green field Project or is it a Revamp of a real old plant?
- Project Execution! If the Project is all Sub-Contract Construction, the better the Documentation the simpler the management.
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
And are piping arrangements mainly done in a plan view? How often are piping arrangements seen in an elevation view?
Thanks
DGrayPPD
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
In Piping the Proper term is Piping Plan and where required Piping Section.
Now is that so hard?
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
1) Plan View
2) Elevation View
3) Isometric View
Based on my research and the book "The Planning Guide to Piping Design," page 82 states, "piping arrangements (as it is written in the book) should be minimally detailed and dimensioned, and as far as possible, be limited to plans only. Partial sections and details should only be required when a congested area or some vertical detail cannot be clarified in any other way."
In my current situation, the client has left it up to us to come up with the piping layout drawings and I am just trying to follow the best and most common industry practice, while also eliminating unnecessary extra man hours. My area is not congested, and I don't understand the point of having an isometric view if we are providing piping isometrics already.
I would just like some outside opinions from experienced pipers before pursuing the argument further.
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
These days, the "arrangement drawings" effectively function as an assembly guide of sorts that can be marked-up in the field. As opposed to the old days when you'd draw the orthographic piping first, and then draw the fabrication isometrics from there.
Piping plans and elevations don't need detailed dimensioning anymore, assuming the isometrics are being extracted from a 3D plant model.
Thanks for buying the book. I obviously don't disagree with what it says. :)
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?
I agree with this:
Based on my research and the book "The Planning Guide to Piping Design," page 82 states, "piping arrangements (as it is written in the book) should be minimally detailed and dimentioned Based on my research and the book "The Planning Guide to Piping Design," page 82 states, "piping arrangements (as it is written in the book) should be minimally detailed and dimentioned, and as far as possible, be limited to plans only. Partial sections and details should only be required when a congested area or some vertical detail cannot be clarified in any other way and as far as possible, be limited to plans only. Partial sections and details should only be required when a congested area or some vertical detail cannot be clarified in any other way."
And if you are doing an Isometric of each line then you do not need to prepare an Isometric View of the total project/Skid//assembly.
Do it once and do it right. Do a good and proper job but don't run up the cost unnecessarily.
Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results
RE: Piping arrangements a thing of the past?