Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
(OP)
Hello,
Looking for sanity check on a project we are working on...
We are preparing a bid for a project in Nebraska for a 3 story, 35,000 sq. ft. Motel. Very basic design- shallow foundations, wood shear walls, wood joists, steel girders, repetitive floors, reasonable spans, etc. Hoping others could provide insight into approximate structural engineering costs for a job like this. Assume about 10 sheets of drawings, associated calculations. Project construction cost is estimated at $4,000,000.
We are estimating right around 0.5% of construction cost.
Kind Regards
Looking for sanity check on a project we are working on...
We are preparing a bid for a project in Nebraska for a 3 story, 35,000 sq. ft. Motel. Very basic design- shallow foundations, wood shear walls, wood joists, steel girders, repetitive floors, reasonable spans, etc. Hoping others could provide insight into approximate structural engineering costs for a job like this. Assume about 10 sheets of drawings, associated calculations. Project construction cost is estimated at $4,000,000.
We are estimating right around 0.5% of construction cost.
Kind Regards






RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
At 0.5% of $4,000,000, your fee is $20,000. This works out to be $2,000 per sheet. Again, sounds too low.
Did you do a detailed breakdown of the work required, to get a more accurate fee?
DaveAtkins
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
What have you been seeing in your area for this type of job? I've heard anywhere from .5% to 1.25% of construction cost. As well as $.40 per sq. ft to $1.25 per sq. foot. So the price varies A LOT.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
Is the layout fairly rectangular with the walls nicely stacking and no stupid bumpouts etc? Have you done a bunch of these previously that you can pilfer a bunch of the details from? If so, then you may be able to get away with .5%. If not, you may want to look at increasing that. You do need to make sure you stay competitive however.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
Dik
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
yes this is a very easy layout. rectangular, nicely stacked, no bumpouts, etc. Pretty 'boiler plate'. Yes, we have very similar projects to grab standard details from.
dik- thanks for input. those seem like fair numbers.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
On that basis, you win some and you lose some... I would guess, maybe $35,000 minimum... or maybe $34,998, in case someone else is going in at $35,000.
Dik
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
now they'll bid $34996 !
another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
If you've done projects like this before and have some of the details and methodology down, I'd say shoot for 25k. I'd think that'd be plenty for a relatively simple building like you're describing.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
That conversation aside, historically, I start with a base % fee and a base $/sqft. I then talk with the architect about what complexities there could be and start adding in additional costs for every new detail I anticipate having. I have an average time it takes me to do a single detail for different materials...which is nice. I think around the $25k would probably be reasonable. BUT, if the architect decides they want a lot of windows, that will certainly change.
I also always put a disclaimer stating that my fee is based off the conceptual drawing provided and that I reserve the right to adjust the fee based on more complex conditions if the concept changes. Has worked out more than a few times.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
"We engineers are gradually value engineering ourselves out of profit. Just wait until they sell the building and the real estate agent gets 3.5% of the purchase price for his split...and no liability. I'm not sure we are the smart ones in this commercial business."
Please as structural engineers stop pricing jobs as if we are selling our services out of Walmart. It does a disservice to the profession as a whole. I know some of us have kids to feed, mortgages, etc. but if you look at the top firms in structural/architectural engineering they're not cutting fees, it's the opposite. Price the job based on the level of quality you will produce. If the client wants a cheaper product, start removing deliverables as mentioned above...specs, site visits, etc.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
Generally price on estimated time, number of drawings, and project value and pick a number consistent with the 3 prices.
Dik
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
I have thought this from the moment I first saw a fee proposal. This great profession was already ruined by those before me who weren't able to protect their industry and fight for remuneration that is reflective of the study and training required, difficulty, and liability we accept. You don't have to look past Lawyers and Doctors, both service industries that sell their knowledge not products, to see how this should have been done. We get on our high horse about helping the community and how pursuit of money is an undesirable trait, but the reality is low balling each other without any common union results in the quality of service declining, not our moral standing increasing. It's a disgrace. /rant
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
Its hard to say what the "average" would be. For situations where it's just a matter of getting it drawn (i.e. minimal calculations)....I'd allocate about 50 hrs per sheet (I've got an excellent drafter working for me). From that base, it only goes up (as much as 120 hrs per sheet).
If I had to give an average (lately) I'd say about 80 hrs per sheet. Considering what we bill out at.....that comes out to $7600/sheet. (I'm in the southeast USA by the way.)
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
As to the comment about estimated hours and the final cost "feeling low"...if it feels low, it probably is low and your intuition is telling you to raise it. Just because you "think" it will take 2 hours, doesn't mean you shouldn't bid it for 4 hrs due to the liability involved and the amount of unknowns with a conceptual set of drawings.
We are a service based industry. I think we are the lowest discipline on the totem pole even though we take a much greater risk than the others in the event something is missed or fails. I have never thought we are compensated for the risk that we assume.
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
My tabulated hours ranged from 28 to 45 depending on complexity, with an overall average of 40 hours/drawing. They hours break down to about 1/3 Engineer and 2/3 Drafter/Designer.
gjc
RE: Structural Fee for Motel in Midwest
In my experience, which seems substantiated here, we structural engineers are simply BAD at developing and providing accurate fees, much less actually tailoring our workload or procedures to fit it. So we just say yes when asked to come down.
For instance, where do you get hourly rates from (the presumed benchmark of what you can "afford")? Actual overhead ratios from your office rent and administrative salaries, or a vague "Market"-ish idea of what you should be billing based on what you feel like others report?
My thoughts on your project, having done a good bit of developer-type work:
--Cost of structure outweighs the amount you can "shave" your fee by. Tighten up gross conservatism, shoot for 50th percentile engineering fee, and 10th percentile structural cost. Maybe $30k fee and try to keep lateral low. A 3-story hotel without strong wind, this is a simple structure---you can probably do shearwalls at 13' and omit all interior OSB except at the lobbies.
--Contractors run the show these days. Can't say it enough. You can't omit structural details to reduce sheet count or save fee/time. You'll be eventually drawing it as an RFI (and explaining a change order) or losing sleep because they missed your plan note and a toenail is now your controlling element. Your drawings need to be complete.
--wood construction and developer jobs = you have way less say/control over the finished product. They might look at your drawings, they might not. Special inspector is likely a high schooler with a clipboard. If you simply want to balance an hours ledger, cutting CA time seems like an easy "fix". But I never do it. Draw them a picture so you can show it to them.
--You say "no bumpouts". I hope for your sake it stays that way. Arch changes hurt. Anticipate, and plan accordingly. I suggest backloading as much effort as you can so you don't have to do it twice.
Let us know what you end up with.