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Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
7

Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

(OP)
I recently came across a website that has collected and offers for free a large database of standards documents in *.pdf form. Money is usually charged for much of this material when obtained from the source, e.g. ASTM, etc. The website's justification is that the material is incorporated by reference in law and if ignorance of the law is truly no excuse, then people under that law should have free access to know what governs them.

Aside from the question of the ethics of posting for free someone else's work (notice I'm not posting the link), what are your views on engineering standards that are incorporated by law but require payment to view?

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I never thought about since I've never had to buy the standards I have access to but I'd say paying for the standards is part of the cost of doing business; much like the testing and certification expenses you would pay to bring a product to market.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I know the website you're talking about. I honestly agree with both sides; I feel that codes and specifications that are adopted by reference by an AHJ should be free in some way. I agree with the websites premise that by adopting these standards by reference they become equivalent to laws and need to be public. I also feel that the people developing said codes and specifications should be paid for their work.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I've always had a philosophical problem with it. I agree with the idea as you repeat it. If it's incorporated into legal requirements, it ought to be freely available.

"The cost of doing business" is not an issue here. It's the cost of "complying with the law" that is. Then you have to look at it from the customer/recipient/public stand point. How are they to audit what a professional has done? We as customers/the public are simply to -trust- that "they did it to spec and they have a stamp" is entirely sufficient. Ignoring the possibility of inability to understand the relevant engineering standards, would it not be wise to allow the public free use of these standards in order to double check? (also ignoring the inconvenience of having a layman come and question a beam analysis by an engineer with 30 years experience...)

It's always irked me as well... ASTM, ISO, IBC/IRC... what a racket!

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Nevertheless, it costs money to develop and maintain standards. PEs pay for their licenses and insurance; I don't see why buying standards wouldn't be considered a prerequisite for doing that type of work. That said, one could likewise argue that any entity that adopts such standards is essentially getting free work that the entity would have otherwise had to do to create their own standard, and they should likewise be required to pay a fee for adopting the standard, and possibly pay a royalty per instantiation/usage.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

In some ways, wouldn't this be like pirating electronic media?

An entity, in this case the governmental AHJ, pays for the license/ownership of a single copy of the copyrighted material, then provides it for free to anybody who wants it.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

(OP)
Pedarrin2, in my experience, the law will incorporate the standard by reference only and then it is on the law-abiding citizen to purchase the standard to see what's in it, or if it's even applicable to their design. I would think this arrangement would be a financial benefit to the standards organization.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

But, why should these jurisdictions get essentially a free ride? In fact, to enforce their codes, they have to purchase the codes anyway, but they're getting for free, the actual development and maintenance of the codes that are for their benefit.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

(OP)
IRstuff, I agree, and in my original post I was going to comment on lazy law-makers, however I could see how it would be a great marketing strategy to have your standards codified so that people pretty much have to purchase them if they hope to be in compliance with the law. . . . a government-sanctioned monopoly.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

2
I'm not saying the codes development and maintenance should be uncompensated. That's ridiculous. I'm saying that they should be paid for the same way we pay for the writing and maintaining of any other law or FED-STD-####, etc. If they are incorporated into law, then they are just that - laws. It should be the burden of the public to support the laws that keep them safe and secure. Not the engineers-alone, at significant cost.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

JNieman, I like your thinking; star for you. That would solve a number of other problems as well. One potentially being the extreme rate that some codes are updated (something tells me the various government authorities would look less favorably on having to fund a code change every 3 years if they had to foot the bill).

About the only downside being that I'm sure the bureaucracy would find some way to make it less efficient and/or more complicated than we have right now. To me that seems a reasonable trade-off.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

It's overhead - light bulbs, copy paper, technical standards

Maybe what irks people is that you no longer get a tangible value for your money. A nicely bound multivolume set of standards seemed to be 'worth' something versus a downloaded file

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I see both sides of this. It seems the website people use it as a legal excuse to violate copyrights.

The non-digital comparison: Various cities here locally use various building codes. However the local libraries in those cities will usually have the referenced versions of those building codes available in their reference section- available for free.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

This topic has been discussed before. NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) seems to have worked out a good compromise. They publish quite a number of codes, including the National Electric Code (NEC). You can view all their codes on-line but only one page at a time and you cannot print them. Rather inconvenient but you can see them for free. If you want convenience buy the book or CD. Often libraries will carry copies of codes.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Addendum to my opinion stated previously - I do agree that moral objection is not grounds to break the laws in this situation. I don't like it, but "thems the breaks" until someone wants to flip the table and change the system to something like I'd want. I'm not holding my breath :)

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I notice a lot of chemical, aerospace, and mechanical engineers commenting here. I'm curious how much each of you (or your companies) would have to spend for a full code change of your engineering references? Basically, I'm curious what other engineering disciplines besides structural need to keep updated in their libraries.

Here's what I came up with for myself as a bridge and buildings structural engineer (assuming no membership discounts or similar):

ICC Package (IBC, IRC, IEBC, IFC, IECC): $520.00
AISC 360 & 341: Free download (I'm leaving the manuals out as they're not technically needed to design for steel)
ACI Manual of Concrete Practice: $1,086.94 (probably could get away with only part of this)
ASCE 7-10: $165.00
AISI 2012 S200: Free download
NDS, SDPWS, & other wood specs: Free download
TMS 402: $150.00
AASHTO LRFD: $807.00
Various ASTM or other specs: $250.00 (lets say 5 of them at $50 each)
TOTAL: $2978.94

Now, I'm not really trying to prove much of a point here. I personally agree that this is the cost of doing business as a structural engineer. That said, every 3-5 years having to basically write off the profits of a job isn't exactly fun. The point where I agree with the OP's website is that how is a layperson, homeowner/business owner, part-timer, or other non-professional reasonably expected to maintain/view an updated library (even a part of the above) if they ever wanted to "double check" a design professional. While I'm sure there's little desire or practicality in someone doing such a double check I feel it's important that everyone have the option to do so.

It seems equivalent to someone getting their car worked on but not being allowed to look under the hood to see what was done. Do most people check that the oil change was done properly? Probably not. Should they be allowed to and not unduly being prevented from doing so if they want; absolutely. Maybe not the best analogy as you're not required by law to change your oil but hopefully you get what I mean.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Compositepro: I like that solution and wish more adopted that approach. ICC does it as well where the IBC and IRC are free online to view one section at a time.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I've never had to pay to get a copy of a /customers/ company standards. McDonnell, Boeing, LockMart, Northrup, various others... once we're in the supply chain and doing work for them, all relevant documents rain freely from the sky... (well... after various security verifications are made :) )

At most, we've paid a pretty minimal fee for the /tools/ to access their various resources. For example, 2FA hardware tokens.

We're expected to work to their design, process, material specs, and so we are given them. It's just... nice. Fair, almost. :)

To think it's different for /laws/ is just a strange relationship.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Company standards are different. If they were to send you ASME or SAE standards, they would be violating their IHS contract, for which they pay dearly and yearly.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I can live with ACI and IBC. Occasional changes, maybe every three years, municipalities have a choice whether or not to adopt them. At least in my area, they don't adopt every revision, so technically, you can skip an edition. And that means, no ACI update, no AISC, etc.
The one that sticks in my craw is the ASTM. They are essential, change regularly and cost a lot of money. I'm talking over $10,000 for a set that is immediately obsolete. We pretty much mindlessly reference them. I was just working with the Corps of Engineers specifications and they're even worse. Our office only had a 1998 edition until recently. We finally got digital access (I'm sure this costs an arm and a leg) which is great.
But I would still not entertain a pirated copy. I was schooled in the time where Microsoft would come down with the wrath of god on pirated software. I still think that someone's policing this. I would not want to explain to my boss why I was using illegal copies and we're being fined.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I also can see both sides on this one. I agree with the notion that laws - and as an extension, standards that are referenced by laws - should be available to the public. It would be absurd for any government to pass a law and then not let the public see it. Why should that not extend to standards that said government adopts as law?

The flip side is - I think having private entities handle these standards is vastly more efficient, and it leaves the rules in the hands of people who actually know something about the industry. Perhaps it is different in other countries, but if the U.S. government were to "absorb" an organization like ASME (my most commonly used standard), it would suddenly take three times more people to run it. There would probably be three to four layers of mid-level managers getting a share of the tax payer money, and the person at the top would not be an engineer. He/she would be some higher-level bureaucrat's friend. He/she would be political and subject to the whims of the current administration. He/she could potentially be replaced every four to eight years, and the code could see major changes influenced by politics. Lobbyists from interest groups may see the code as an opportunity to unduly help or hurt industry.

The current system may not be perfect, but someone is going to pay for the development and maintenance of these standards no matter what. It might as well be the industry that pays and engineers that get payed, rather than tax payers and bureaucrats, respectively. At least it is a level playing field.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

ANSI has never been a government entity, although the relevant government agencies are members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_St...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I recall when MIL standard changes were released, and you could/would just get a copy of the relevant changes so you could slip-sheet or redline your own copy of the parent standard. I'd grouse a lot less if ASTM standard changes were handled similarly, i.e. you could buy the "update" for a given standard for say, $5, or buy the whole thing at the regular $50 cost.

But then, their funding would drop by 90% and they wouldn't be able to update/change the standards at anything like the current frequency.

Um, and that's a bad thing...right? Hmmm.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Not the case! There have been rulings by the courts on this issue. Even a state's building code is not free for each individual, although there must be availability of the code to all for no fee. This has been solved by the powers that be, by having a hard copy and electronic availability of the codes to anyone who wants to look, you just can't print it out for your use or distribution unless you buy it. Go to the ICC website....the codes are available to view, but not to print unless you buy them.

It has also been ruled that the standards produced by various organizations are the copyright property of those organizations (ASTM, ACI, ANSI, etc.)and even though they are incorporated by reference in the codes, there is no requirement that those referenced documents be provided to individuals at no cost. Those don't even have to be available to the public for viewing.

Buying codes and standards that are relevant to your practice is a normal cost of doing business. You don't have to buy each version, each year, since most code referenced standards lag far behind the latest version. As an example, up until 2010 in the Florida Building Code, the standards referenced in the code for stucco were over 10 years old. Many other referenced standards are the same.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Quote (Ron)

There have been rulings by the courts on this issue.

Quote (Ron)

It has also been ruled that the standards produced by various organizations are the copyright property of those organizations (ASTM, ACI, ANSI, etc.)and even though they are incorporated by reference in the codes, there is no requirement that those referenced documents be provided to individuals at no cost. Those don't even have to be available to the public for viewing.

I double checked as it's been a while since I looked but the court case involving the website referenced in the original post is still ongoing. So, I'd say that it's not correct to say that this has been specifically ruled upon yet.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

From the UK side of the pond, I sometimes look at a clients specification and see the list of standards they require the contractor to comply with, and wonder how the smaller contractors fund this. Over here the British Standards Institute charges between $100 and $500 for a standard, (less if you are a member, and pay an annual fee.)

Also if a standard is released in multiple parts, then each part is charged!

As an example BS ISO 8528 for generating sets currently has 13 parts! These are constantly bring updated, so each part will only be current for less than ten years.

Another trip point for the unwary lies in BS ISO 3046 for engines, again released in several parts, purchase of BS ISO 3046-1 Declaration of power, leads you to realize that the definitions are in BS ISO 15550 which holds the central list of definitions for different types of engines.

So there you are, like I did a few years ago, persuading a very reluctant business owner to purchase a standard for several hundred dollars, then having to go back for more money, so I could understand what the first standard said!

On the other hand I now sit (as a papers member) on several BSI committees and see at first hand just how much work is put into the developing and updating standards (we do not have a real equivalent to your USA "codes"). Someone has to fund this. Now some of BSI's funds come from our government, equally in the European Union, they partially fund CENELEC and some other European standards bodies

What I think would be unwise, would be for government to fully fund standards bodies, as a means, for example of helping smaller companies. This would start driving standards in a way business users would like..........

So we seem to have a system which favors larger companies over smaller ones.

Anybody got a solution to this, especially for a start up company?

Purchase of standards is possibly tax deductible, but you have to earn money to pay taxes!


RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Quote (Hoxton)

I sometimes look at a clients specification and see the list of standards they require the contractor to comply with, and wonder how the smaller contractors fund this.

I'd put money on them just having an old copy or no copy at all.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

IME - small businesses either skate by with 1) no copy, and hope they can find relevant excerpts online, 2) a copy they "kept" from their previous employer, or 3) piracy.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

The link appears to be missing the apostrophe and l: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veeck_v._Southern_Bu...

Unfortunately, the 5th circuit presumably only covers Louisiana and Texas. So, presumably, someone will need to violate copyright, get sued, and litigate on that decision, although there may be other arguments to be made, such as restraint of trade.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Thanks for the fixed link. Section 4 of the wiki article mentions other cases from other circuits.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

"I notice a lot of chemical, aerospace, and mechanical engineers commenting here. I'm curious how much each of you (or your companies) would have to spend for a full code change of your engineering references?"

That is highly dependent on exactly what it is you're doing. Generally, I'm using API-650, AWWA D100, ASCE 7, various ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Codes, NFPA 22, IBC. And yes, it adds up.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

TME....the case you reference is not the only similar case to be put to a legal test. In the case of Veeck v. Southern Building Code Congress International, Inc. the first court (Texas) ruled in summary judgment that SBCCI had a copyright to its material, even though the Standard Building Code had been locally adopted into ordinance, and that copying and distributing the information without permission was illegal and the court required Veeck to "sease and desist". Veeck appealed but the US District Court of Appeals, 5th Circuit, upheld the ruling of the lower court.

The basic premise is that as long as the public is not prevented access to the code in some manner, the copyright holds. As previously noted, if you want to read essentially any code, you can do so, but if you print it or copy it without permission of its promulgating entity, you are violating copyright laws.

IRstuff referenced the same case and he is correct that the decision had limited influence except within the court's jurisdiction; however, such cases are usually cited as having set a precedence which is commonly respected by other courts in their decisions, provided the facts are similar.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

FYI,the website in question is still fighting a lawsuit filed jointly by ASTM, ASHRAE, and NFPA in 2013.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

According to the wiki article, the decision of the lower court was reversed, not upheld at 5th district.

"for whatever use the citizens choose to make of it. Citizens may reproduce copies of the law for many purposes, not only to guide their actions but to influence future legislation, educate their neighborhood association, or simply to amuse."

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I would agree the prices or exorbitant, but I disagree that I don't have free access (even without this website). There is absolutely nothing stopping me or anyone else from hopping in the car, driving to a library, and reading as much as I like. For the more common codes, I probably don't even have to go that far. There's an International Building Code at the reference desk of the public library a block from where I type this. If I were to drive to my local public university engineering library I could probably read every ASTM, ACI, AISC, etc. If I were to drive a couple hours to my state's flagship public university engineering library, I could probably read every ASTM, ACI, ASIC, etc. ever written.

Now if I don't want to go to the library every time, I can pay for the convenience. I can pay to make copies at the library. Or I can go to these organizations and pay to have a hard copy or access on my desktop, laptop, tablet, smartphone, smart watch, whatever.

As a citizen and engineer I'd prefer that this is all digitized and offered for free to level the playing field and give everyone easy access to the standards they're required to follow. Of course if I do that, I probably need to shoulder a lot more of the cost of development since I'm undercutting some of the revenue that would go to that. I'd guess most of the population doesn't agree with me (and even the ones who do probably don't want to pay for it), so I don't anticipate that happening any time soon. Guess I'm stuck paying or going to the library.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

2
At a point, the inconvenience and exclusivity of usage kind of makes the "freely available" only /technically/ accurate and still oppressively difficult to convince me of the fairness of availability.

I'm reminded of Arthur Dent...

Quote (HHGttG)

Mr Prosser: But, Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.
Arthur: Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anybody or anything.
Mr Prosser: But the plans were on display…
Arthur: On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.
Mr Prosser: That’s the display department.
Arthur: With a torch.
Mr Prosser: The lights had probably gone out.
Arthur: So had the stairs.
Mr Prosser: But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?
Arthur: Yes yes I did. It was on display at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying beware of the leopard.

"But they /were/ on display"

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

The US District Court in DC ruled against the website the OP mentions on 2 February 2017. It's subject to appeal.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

I think there needs to be a clear distinction between the ethics and the legality of freely downloading the standards. There are many reasons why a freely available standard is ethically correct. Among other reasons, all engineers should place the health and safety of the community above the profits of private organisations. If you are in a position where you are considering not buying the standard because of financial reasons then yes, go ahead and download the standard for free, whether legally or not.

As is stated on the first page of many freely available standards: "In order to promote public education and public safety, equal justice for all, a better informed citizenry, the rule of law, world trade and world peace, this legal document is hereby made available on a noncommercial basis, as it is the right of all humans to know and speak the laws that govern them."

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

So is the health and safety of the community enhanced when the standards organizations loose their funding?

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

nonplussed, there are many examples of laws contrary to what one may consider ethical. If you make a "clear distinction between ethics and legality", you're basically just leaving all decisions to your own discretion, regardless of the law. Do you think everyone should be allowed to handle things this way?

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

(OP)
stevenal, I wonder if there are any good statistics showing a correlation between funding for standards organizations and health and safety of the community.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

Quote (stevenal)

So is the health and safety of the community enhanced when the standards organizations lose their funding?
As far as I am aware, most standards organisations are not funded by sole practitioners struggling to make income. If a company has multiple employees then it can likely afford the standards and should buy them. If a sole practitioner is considering 'going it alone' simply because they can't fork out the 5 grand every few years to buy some standards then, in that case, I don't think that the practitioner downloading the standards for free will force the closure of a standards organisation.

Quote (FoxRox)

nonplussed, there are many examples of laws contrary to what one may consider ethical. If you make a "clear distinction between ethics and legality", you're basically just leaving all decisions to your own discretion, regardless of the law. Do you think everyone should be allowed to handle things this way?
Yes I do believe everyone should look at the ethics of a situation before blindly complying with the law, but that does not mean I go around raping and murdering. Without considering the ethics and simply following the law, even countries like the US would not exist as the declaration of independence was against the law. Was the declaration of independence ethical? Well that again is subjective.

Anyway, the OP was asking specifically to standards already incorporated by law. If a standard is incorporated in law then I don't see why that information should be restricted to only people in the community with money.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

If a copy is freely available for noncommercial basis and you use it for commercial purposes, you've already failed the ethical test (period) (end of story)

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

(OP)
Unfortunately what is legal and what is ethical are not always as synonymous as we'd like. At least in democracy-leaning societies, the laws tend to reflect the majority ethos.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall

They should all be free - if they are required by some AHJ for compliance. Sure, hard copies should be purchased but downloadable for free. Recommended practices, etc. should be chargeable since it took time and effort, non-public, to draft and revise. The NEC should be free and should be funded by the states that adopt the NEC as a requirement. Not only will this help the consumer and small engineer but it will result in better compliance since the information is shared freely and easily available to the savvy consumer.

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