Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
(OP)
I recently came across a website that has collected and offers for free a large database of standards documents in *.pdf form. Money is usually charged for much of this material when obtained from the source, e.g. ASTM, etc. The website's justification is that the material is incorporated by reference in law and if ignorance of the law is truly no excuse, then people under that law should have free access to know what governs them.
Aside from the question of the ethics of posting for free someone else's work (notice I'm not posting the link), what are your views on engineering standards that are incorporated by law but require payment to view?
Aside from the question of the ethics of posting for free someone else's work (notice I'm not posting the link), what are your views on engineering standards that are incorporated by law but require payment to view?
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.





RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
"The cost of doing business" is not an issue here. It's the cost of "complying with the law" that is. Then you have to look at it from the customer/recipient/public stand point. How are they to audit what a professional has done? We as customers/the public are simply to -trust- that "they did it to spec and they have a stamp" is entirely sufficient. Ignoring the possibility of inability to understand the relevant engineering standards, would it not be wise to allow the public free use of these standards in order to double check? (also ignoring the inconvenience of having a layman come and question a beam analysis by an engineer with 30 years experience...)
It's always irked me as well... ASTM, ISO, IBC/IRC... what a racket!
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
An entity, in this case the governmental AHJ, pays for the license/ownership of a single copy of the copyrighted material, then provides it for free to anybody who wants it.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
About the only downside being that I'm sure the bureaucracy would find some way to make it less efficient and/or more complicated than we have right now. To me that seems a reasonable trade-off.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Maybe what irks people is that you no longer get a tangible value for your money. A nicely bound multivolume set of standards seemed to be 'worth' something versus a downloaded file
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
The non-digital comparison: Various cities here locally use various building codes. However the local libraries in those cities will usually have the referenced versions of those building codes available in their reference section- available for free.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Here's what I came up with for myself as a bridge and buildings structural engineer (assuming no membership discounts or similar):
ICC Package (IBC, IRC, IEBC, IFC, IECC): $520.00
AISC 360 & 341: Free download (I'm leaving the manuals out as they're not technically needed to design for steel)
ACI Manual of Concrete Practice: $1,086.94 (probably could get away with only part of this)
ASCE 7-10: $165.00
AISI 2012 S200: Free download
NDS, SDPWS, & other wood specs: Free download
TMS 402: $150.00
AASHTO LRFD: $807.00
Various ASTM or other specs: $250.00 (lets say 5 of them at $50 each)
TOTAL: $2978.94
Now, I'm not really trying to prove much of a point here. I personally agree that this is the cost of doing business as a structural engineer. That said, every 3-5 years having to basically write off the profits of a job isn't exactly fun. The point where I agree with the OP's website is that how is a layperson, homeowner/business owner, part-timer, or other non-professional reasonably expected to maintain/view an updated library (even a part of the above) if they ever wanted to "double check" a design professional. While I'm sure there's little desire or practicality in someone doing such a double check I feel it's important that everyone have the option to do so.
It seems equivalent to someone getting their car worked on but not being allowed to look under the hood to see what was done. Do most people check that the oil change was done properly? Probably not. Should they be allowed to and not unduly being prevented from doing so if they want; absolutely. Maybe not the best analogy as you're not required by law to change your oil but hopefully you get what I mean.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
At most, we've paid a pretty minimal fee for the /tools/ to access their various resources. For example, 2FA hardware tokens.
We're expected to work to their design, process, material specs, and so we are given them. It's just... nice. Fair, almost. :)
To think it's different for /laws/ is just a strange relationship.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
The one that sticks in my craw is the ASTM. They are essential, change regularly and cost a lot of money. I'm talking over $10,000 for a set that is immediately obsolete. We pretty much mindlessly reference them. I was just working with the Corps of Engineers specifications and they're even worse. Our office only had a 1998 edition until recently. We finally got digital access (I'm sure this costs an arm and a leg) which is great.
But I would still not entertain a pirated copy. I was schooled in the time where Microsoft would come down with the wrath of god on pirated software. I still think that someone's policing this. I would not want to explain to my boss why I was using illegal copies and we're being fined.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
The flip side is - I think having private entities handle these standards is vastly more efficient, and it leaves the rules in the hands of people who actually know something about the industry. Perhaps it is different in other countries, but if the U.S. government were to "absorb" an organization like ASME (my most commonly used standard), it would suddenly take three times more people to run it. There would probably be three to four layers of mid-level managers getting a share of the tax payer money, and the person at the top would not be an engineer. He/she would be some higher-level bureaucrat's friend. He/she would be political and subject to the whims of the current administration. He/she could potentially be replaced every four to eight years, and the code could see major changes influenced by politics. Lobbyists from interest groups may see the code as an opportunity to unduly help or hurt industry.
The current system may not be perfect, but someone is going to pay for the development and maintenance of these standards no matter what. It might as well be the industry that pays and engineers that get payed, rather than tax payers and bureaucrats, respectively. At least it is a level playing field.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Were they grossly less efficient at that time and the other concerns you have back then?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
But then, their funding would drop by 90% and they wouldn't be able to update/change the standards at anything like the current frequency.
Um, and that's a bad thing...right? Hmmm.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
It has also been ruled that the standards produced by various organizations are the copyright property of those organizations (ASTM, ACI, ANSI, etc.)and even though they are incorporated by reference in the codes, there is no requirement that those referenced documents be provided to individuals at no cost. Those don't even have to be available to the public for viewing.
Buying codes and standards that are relevant to your practice is a normal cost of doing business. You don't have to buy each version, each year, since most code referenced standards lag far behind the latest version. As an example, up until 2010 in the Florida Building Code, the standards referenced in the code for stucco were over 10 years old. Many other referenced standards are the same.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I double checked as it's been a while since I looked but the court case involving the website referenced in the original post is still ongoing. So, I'd say that it's not correct to say that this has been specifically ruled upon yet.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Also if a standard is released in multiple parts, then each part is charged!
As an example BS ISO 8528 for generating sets currently has 13 parts! These are constantly bring updated, so each part will only be current for less than ten years.
Another trip point for the unwary lies in BS ISO 3046 for engines, again released in several parts, purchase of BS ISO 3046-1 Declaration of power, leads you to realize that the definitions are in BS ISO 15550 which holds the central list of definitions for different types of engines.
So there you are, like I did a few years ago, persuading a very reluctant business owner to purchase a standard for several hundred dollars, then having to go back for more money, so I could understand what the first standard said!
On the other hand I now sit (as a papers member) on several BSI committees and see at first hand just how much work is put into the developing and updating standards (we do not have a real equivalent to your USA "codes"). Someone has to fund this. Now some of BSI's funds come from our government, equally in the European Union, they partially fund CENELEC and some other European standards bodies
What I think would be unwise, would be for government to fully fund standards bodies, as a means, for example of helping smaller companies. This would start driving standards in a way business users would like..........
So we seem to have a system which favors larger companies over smaller ones.
Anybody got a solution to this, especially for a start up company?
Purchase of standards is possibly tax deductible, but you have to earn money to pay taxes!
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I'd put money on them just having an old copy or no copy at all.
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Unfortunately, the 5th circuit presumably only covers Louisiana and Texas. So, presumably, someone will need to violate copyright, get sued, and litigate on that decision, although there may be other arguments to be made, such as restraint of trade.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
That is highly dependent on exactly what it is you're doing. Generally, I'm using API-650, AWWA D100, ASCE 7, various ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Codes, NFPA 22, IBC. And yes, it adds up.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
The basic premise is that as long as the public is not prevented access to the code in some manner, the copyright holds. As previously noted, if you want to read essentially any code, you can do so, but if you print it or copy it without permission of its promulgating entity, you are violating copyright laws.
IRstuff referenced the same case and he is correct that the decision had limited influence except within the court's jurisdiction; however, such cases are usually cited as having set a precedence which is commonly respected by other courts in their decisions, provided the facts are similar.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
"for whatever use the citizens choose to make of it. Citizens may reproduce copies of the law for many purposes, not only to guide their actions but to influence future legislation, educate their neighborhood association, or simply to amuse."
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Now if I don't want to go to the library every time, I can pay for the convenience. I can pay to make copies at the library. Or I can go to these organizations and pay to have a hard copy or access on my desktop, laptop, tablet, smartphone, smart watch, whatever.
As a citizen and engineer I'd prefer that this is all digitized and offered for free to level the playing field and give everyone easy access to the standards they're required to follow. Of course if I do that, I probably need to shoulder a lot more of the cost of development since I'm undercutting some of the revenue that would go to that. I'd guess most of the population doesn't agree with me (and even the ones who do probably don't want to pay for it), so I don't anticipate that happening any time soon. Guess I'm stuck paying or going to the library.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I'm reminded of Arthur Dent...
"But they /were/ on display"
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Interesting reference to the Veeck case linked by IRStuff above. Seems to be a difference whether a code is simply referenced, or when a model code is adopted wholesale into the law.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
As is stated on the first page of many freely available standards: "In order to promote public education and public safety, equal justice for all, a better informed citizenry, the rule of law, world trade and world peace, this legal document is hereby made available on a noncommercial basis, as it is the right of all humans to know and speak the laws that govern them."
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
Yes I do believe everyone should look at the ethics of a situation before blindly complying with the law, but that does not mean I go around raping and murdering. Without considering the ethics and simply following the law, even countries like the US would not exist as the declaration of independence was against the law. Was the declaration of independence ethical? Well that again is subjective.
Anyway, the OP was asking specifically to standards already incorporated by law. If a standard is incorporated in law then I don't see why that information should be restricted to only people in the community with money.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
RE: Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall