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Identifying original drawing vs. copies

Identifying original drawing vs. copies

(OP)
Hello,

For years, we used a stamp that said "ORIGINAL IF RED" to identify the original drawing released by engineering. It was easy to identify a copy because the red ink would be black on a copy. With the advent of color copiers, it will now be more difficult to determine what is original. Ideally, copies would be labeled or stamped "COPY" or similar but we do not have a dedicated document control person.

Stamping the drawing, however, still does provide some feedback. When I check and approve a drawing, I still use the "ORIGINAL IF RED" stamp. That does show that I have reviewed the drawing.

My question is whether I should continue stamping the drawings or develop some better method of identifying copies of drawings.


Thanks,
Kyle

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

Develop a better method.

I have this debate all the time. Why does it matter if you have an original or a copy?

My position:
Who makes hand drawings or manually writes reports anymore? All documents/drawings of all types are created electronically. Therefore, no matter what, the electronic copy is the master. Everything printed is a copy. The original only exists electronically. Therefore, a process has to be in place to know
1) the hard COPY that you are holding on to matches the effective electronic version.
2) any redline changes on a hard COPY are captured (electronically) and distributed to anyone who may be referencing a current copy.

There is no reason to stamp original or copy anymore. Everything is assumed to be a copy and therefore every time a copy is referenced at the point of use, it should be verified against the electronic master. Typically, a revision check is sufficient.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

A common one I see is a small stamp at the corner of the sheet "Soft Copy". This is a file (normally PDF) derived from the original elect file.
Otherwise, it's commonsense a copy is from an original at some point.

Chris, CSWP
SolidWorks '16
ctophers home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

I also do not see the value in identifying an original versus a copy. This insinuates that you could have multiple versions of the same document which is a huge red flag, to me. Why else would it matter if it's a clone or the parent?

In most every situation I can think of, off the top of my head, the only thing you need to know is what revision/level/release do I need to be working from, and what revision/level/release is my drawing? If they match, all matter of copy/original is irrelevant.

The first drawing marked "Rev E" is no more or less important/significant than the 1,000th copy of that drawing marked "Rev E" - or else you're doing something likely troublesome.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

With electronic files becoming the 'master', and ISO 9001 certification, I have seen wording on documents/drawings that says effectively "This hardcopy is a copy, check the electronic version for the latest approved version.'

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

We have a red mark CONTROLLED COPY for drawings on the shop floor. Whenever there is a revision change to one of these, document control goes out and replaces all of them. All the drawings must have the red stamp on the floor, no old bottom of the toolbox copies allowed. Fortunately, our administration is too cheap to buy a color copier. It would be nice to have all electronic documentation but I don't see it happening any time soon. The office may be approaching paperless but our shop floor is far from it.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

(OP)
Hello,

Thank you for all of the answers. They are all excellent and agree with what I had in mind. We do still have some hand drawn documents, but I over the years have hunted them down and redrawn them in CAD. As all of you mention, copies are the same as the original - they had better be. Fortunately, I am in control of the drawings but am thinking ahead as we add more personnel.

One of my goals is to streamline the drawing approval process and eliminating an unnecessary step will be a good start.

Kyle

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

@dgallup

Comparable to your 'CONTROLLED COPY' process, we tie it down a bit more, even. All drawings on the floor must be identified by the job number they pertain to, and come back to the office when the job is closed out. So while we may have to print a drawing repeatedly for repeat-jobs, so we can write the new job number on it, it puts a certain amount of control that has created a culture where we've had zero issues with people working from an incorrect drawing. We do allow for a "Reference Only" stamp to be put onto a print, but the purpose and usage is so that one may bring a drawing onto the floor for discussion purposes only, and no production is to be made from that print. An 'unwritten' rule is that it shouldn't leave the hands of the purpose that brought it out there when not actively being discussed (if you brought it out, you bring it back).

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

Buy some UV fluorescent ink and mix with your red ink. Color copiers don't have fluorescent dyes, so you can check the validity of the stamp with a UV flashlight. You could even put some UV ink in a fountain pen, and have your document control person sign across the stamp with said ink.

But, I agree that the electronic version as master is the more modern way.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

JNieman - Most of our production runs go on for years (or decades). Doc Control does retrieve the obsolete copies when they distribute new versions.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

Quote (btrueblood)

I agree that the electronic version as master is the more modern way.

And of course there is no way to have several copies of electronic master all over the place.

It still question of document control in the first place. For paper - stamping and signing by hand, for electronic forms - vault, PDM, check-in and check-out.

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

CheckerHater,

This discussion reminds of how much I like blueprint machines. You know when you are looking at a copy. It is extremely difficult to make copies from anything other than the master.

If you have PDM, can you systematically purge paper and electronics copies. When you need a drawing, you print or copy off the latest version from PDM.

--
JHG

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

Oh dear Lord, do not bring up those smelly, blurry, fading & expensive blueprints. Loved it when someone would fax me a shrunken copy of a blueprint. I could claim the dimensions were anything I wanted them to be 'cuz you could not read any of them.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

And the smell of changing the ammonia. I can still feel the burning in my nostrils when I think about it.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

So, you can tell copy from the original AND clear your sinuses? Looks like a win-win smile

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

(OP)
Scott - I was going to mention the ammonia. Really wakes you up in the morning. :)

Dgallup - how about getting faxes of drawings on thermal fax paper? I was relating to some coworkers about the days of AmpFax to get drawings for Amp connectors. Now it's just a quick download to get a 3D solid model.


Back to the subject, though, I'm talking with management about improving our drawing routing process and coming up with a way to make sure our production personnel have the latest copies of drawings. When releasing a new product, I can generate a large number of revisions as we work out the details.

Kyle

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

The planning department could release the drawing with the work order. That way, you know the revision defined on the work order matches the drawing received by production personnel.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

(OP)
Scott,

That sounds like a good process. The drawings should be available in our ERP system so they should be able to attach them to the work order. I'll investigate that.

Kyle

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

swertrel,

I love the smell of ammonia in the morning. It is the smell of...

...people not making copies off the copies!

--
JHG

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

Drawoh,
We used to have " Transparentizer fluid " soak a copy in that and you could make a blueprint off it.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

As an experiment I made a pen plot with transparent orange ink. The image was so faint I had a difficult time reading it. However it made the darkest blueprints, much more contrast than black ink or plastic lead. We were pretty far past graphite then, so I'm not sure.

In any case a blueprint of a blueprint, even with a transparent background, would probably be low contrast as the UV from the lamp would not be much impeded by the blue. Perhaps there is a chemical treatment that would couple with the blue.

To the original question - there are some possibilities.

1) Did you know that dollar bills have anti-copy/anti-scan/anti-edit features built in? While it is possible to use completely analog methods, any digital work-flow is likely to be stopped by it. You can see it as a pattern of yellow dots in the background of most currency. It seems this technique was developed by Digimarc.

Something similar seems to be available in pre-printed form http://www.protectedpaper.com/product_p/obxuc.htm

The following pattern is used on currency, though the article suggests that US currency also uses some other scheme. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation.

It's hard to say it will work from images generated on color laser printers - it may be the resolution is too low or the yellow dot pattern the copiers already applied by the laser printers will interfere. http://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mys...

Interesting and frightening, Digimarc licensed the marketing of unspecified patents to Intellectual Ventures, an IP/Patent Troll house founded by former Microsofties Nathan Myhrvold and Edward Jung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_Venture...

However, at least this patent by Digimarc (there are many others) is lapsed due to non-payment of fees. https://www.google.com/patents/US6427020?dq=digima...

2) Another approach is to use color paper for the distributed copies. Even good color copiers will have trouble duplicating the shade and they will be identifiable among paper stacks.

3) A third approach is to use stamps, such as are used for legal papers by a Notary Public. It will be a while before 3D printers are making paper documents.

RE: Identifying original drawing vs. copies

3D Dave,
This is interesting. Some of the German aircraft companies I used to do work for, would sent their drawings printed on Orange paper, which were just about impossible to duplicate.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

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