Extra security for deluge valve
Extra security for deluge valve
(OP)
We are thinlking on using a deluge system indoors where preventing water damage is very important issue for the client, and we are thinking on using a deluge system.
I have worked with common deluge valves (Viking, Tyco), for many industrial or common applications where following the normal listed designs is not a problem.
To prevent unwanted water discharges one can think of double or extra securities on the electronic or hydraulic actuation system, but if there is a leak on the priming-pilot lines, or somebody tampers the manual actuation valve, the rubber of the diaphragm is damaged or clogged, or the solenoid valve fails for unkown reasons or a failure on the alarm system or a test, etc. Also a sprinkler pilot line can fail thinking of a hydraulic actuation system, so there is always some risk of unwanted water flood.
So I´m courious if semoboody knows if there are options to add extra security on a deluge valve thinking on the mechanical side that retains the clapper from fail, or safer valves on this issue.
Some people has even commented "crazy" ideas like using two deluge valves on series or double solenoid valve, etc. And of course we want to stay on the listed manufacturers specs.
Does somebody knows if there are options on deluge valves that include double mechanical securities, or options like an hybrid of deluge&preaction system ?.
Any ideas are welcome. Thanks in advance.
I have worked with common deluge valves (Viking, Tyco), for many industrial or common applications where following the normal listed designs is not a problem.
To prevent unwanted water discharges one can think of double or extra securities on the electronic or hydraulic actuation system, but if there is a leak on the priming-pilot lines, or somebody tampers the manual actuation valve, the rubber of the diaphragm is damaged or clogged, or the solenoid valve fails for unkown reasons or a failure on the alarm system or a test, etc. Also a sprinkler pilot line can fail thinking of a hydraulic actuation system, so there is always some risk of unwanted water flood.
So I´m courious if semoboody knows if there are options to add extra security on a deluge valve thinking on the mechanical side that retains the clapper from fail, or safer valves on this issue.
Some people has even commented "crazy" ideas like using two deluge valves on series or double solenoid valve, etc. And of course we want to stay on the listed manufacturers specs.
Does somebody knows if there are options on deluge valves that include double mechanical securities, or options like an hybrid of deluge&preaction system ?.
Any ideas are welcome. Thanks in advance.





RE: Extra security for deluge valve
The use of a Double interlock is all you need. Detectors fail FAR more frequently than sprinklers.
If the pilot line fails, the pipe will flood with water. Since there is no fire, the water will not flow. You will receive an alarm on the supervisory circuit indicating a problem.
We cannot design to "if". What if someone hits them both with a hammer?
R/
Matt
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
If a deluge system is called for, it is by definition a safety critical system and needs very careful attention to design. Valves produced for this specific application are subject very strict reliability and operative requirements- it is best not to reinvent the wheel here.
You can get yourself buried in a pit of expectations if you get caught up in the 'what if' game.
A deluge system is always going to have an arrangement of valves both electronic and manual, and no matter what you do there is the potential for someone will ill intentions or a lack of understanding to cause problems- if your customer is does not understand this, you are in an unfortunate position for sure; but it is up to you to make them understand the requirements the system is subject to.
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
It really sounds like you want a double interlock preaction.
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Are there double interlock preaction systems with open nozzles?. Can somebody provide an example?
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
My intention here is to get ideas like yours in order to find points that I may have missed and consider all options around the deluge system before changing to other type of system.
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
I would suggest if water is a concern, go to gas. If money isn't to big a deal, check out Hypoxic Air fire suppression.
D/I pre-actions are as reliable and and safe as we can provide.
Be sure your AHJ approves the variance in advance.
One of the issues you will run into.., The manf will not allow any deviation from their APPROVED design. This way they control liability. I assume this to include water damage from failure.
R/
Matt
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Depending on size of space and what you are protecting, you could look at:
Double Interlock Preaction system.
Gaseous system
Water Mist system
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
"Follow" us at https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/9221...
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
What are you protecting??
Aircraft hanger
Deep freeze
Computer room
Other???
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
The code address a water curtain following NFPA 13 in lieu of a fire curtain.
The deluge system will open to prevent a stage fire to affect the audience, but the water curtain will open only some sprinklers if the heat affects the proscenium opening curtain sprinklers.
Would you go only with the code water curtain?
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Will look at the theater section in 101.
So are you looking at an existing theater????
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
"Follow" us at https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/9221...
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
The 101 says a water curtain under the "13", the "13" says on the common practice on this case is a deluge curtain. I´ve seen references for new theaters with deluge. The way to apply the 101 on existeing theaters is another side of the issue, in which I also appreciate any comment on this also.
Going deep on discarding the option of the deluge valve, I even checked very old deluge valves design in order to see if there is a valve that hold the water in a different, "safer" way, but it seems that nowadays they all hold the water with similar water priming pressure principle. I want to check if there is another type of listed deluge valve, or if there is type of preaction system that work with open sprinklers that I don´t know. Of course it shouldn´t be a crazy non approved solution.
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign.com
"Follow" us at https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/9221...
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
I think you are dealing with concerns that cannot be addressed. Can you not just eliminate the Deluge system and put in a rated curtain?
If not, you are stuck with a Deluge. The very fact that the IBC addresses this and not just the installation criteria, should be a big flag for you.
I understand the owner is concerned with water. We all are. But I advise against pursuing any type system that would further delay water in this environment.
R/
Matt
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Is this theater very old and historic, or something? What is the genesis for this concern over water damage from the deluge? They do understand that soaking things with water is generally better than allowing them to be destroyed by fire?
For reference, as an engineer who deals with paint systems and frequently works with systems that are very old and have been through any number of retrofits, I have yet to hear of a deluge system discharging for any reason other than a fire of some kind.
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
""""Most play houses in New York City have deluge systems protecting the stages as it has been part of the NYC code for many years."""
Interesting
RE: Extra security for deluge valve
Yes, old historic, delicate wood, plaster, fabrics, paintings, gold, no flood provisions. (Maybe some freedom following NFPA 914).
I have some experience with Viking E and F, Tyco DV5, inspections on Bermad, Watts all diagphragm type. Also changed some non-diagphragm old style valves.
Has anybody a design descripcion on a deluge systema on an actual theater. Or the use of a non-deluge water curtain?.