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How would you build the next Death Star?

How would you build the next Death Star?

How would you build the next Death Star?

(OP)
Assume you are building the Death Star 3 in orbit around an asteroid. (Yes, even the Death Star Mark II around any reasonable-sized moon is too much of a weight difference to be relevant.)

How large could the new Death Star become before it would begin distorting the asteroid's orbit and cause your supply ships big problems mating and fabricating the ever-increasing mass of the Death Star? Our (small!) Space Shuttle and 3 person Soviet capsules and even the Space Station are pretty little - and they had problems being stable for docking.

Wouldn't it be easier to start with an asteroid and hollow it out to make the Death Star by removing material, rather than lifting material up to orbit to fabricate and build the structure itself?

Now, granted, the first two Death Stars did not have such an admirable record as effective weapons systems.... But "somebody" made a lot of money building the Maginot Line!

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

One idea for a large hollow structure is to heat the asteroid material until molten, then inject gas to form a bubble. Might take a few decades to cool...

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

You select an asteroid of the appropriate composition, and then as you hollow it out you use the material to build on the outside. The mass and CG stay the same, but you create space for your 'stuff'.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Ever read 'The Secret of the Martian Moons', by Donald A. Wollheim? The Moons were actually intergalactic spacecraft in a parking orbit around Mars.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

I can't believe...you can find more online details of the history, construction and operation of the DeathStars than any piece of real machinery

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

racookpe1978,

Does the Death Star have to be that big? If you build it to fly around Earth, and someone on Saturn's moon Titan pisses you off, you need to fly there. If you build the thing around the planet of interest, they will want to know why you are building it. Damn them!

There was a discussion out there on what one should do if one were an evil overlord. I think Darth Vader violated a few of their rules.

Evil Overlord Inc.

It has been a while since it has been updated.

--
JHG

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

(OP)
The Death Star"s "weapon of interest" is the big laser and its "aiming radar-like" parabolic dish, right? (And the six smaller lasers feeding its focus point.) Everything else is defensive (turret guns) or support (vacuum/magnetic atmospheric containment "walls", fighter and shuttle hanger bays, tractor beams, elevators, torture chambers, prison cells, disposal cells, etc.)

So I'd use a potato-shaped irregular lump long enough to hold the laser length and big enough in diameter to support the parabolic dish. Rest of the lasers go around the dish's perimeter. Everything else is wasted effort to build as an artificial sphere.

You brought up "Evil Overlords" - an unexpected but somewhat related topic.

The absolute best description of an Evil Overlord (and the qualifications and duties and promotion/career paths of his Minions and Assistants as well --- Yes, there are differences between the two, and both are capitalized properly!) is in John Moore's Heroics for Beginners ... A companion book to his A Fate Worse Than Dragons and Bad Prince Charlie (which concerns the accuracy of mystical prophecies, terra-forming, droughts, drainage ditches and "Weapons of Magical Destruction." A bit lighter is the well-thought-out "how to kiss the right frog in the swamp" plan developed by the "too beautiful to be magical" blonde in his The Unhandsome Prince

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Hmmm if we replace the lasers with a Discontiguous Particle Acceleration System*, there is no requirement for interstaller flight or a firing port and hence one could be built inside a suitable sized asteroid.

The deathstar is capable of interstaller flight is it not and one assumes it is a non reactionary system, so the key build point would be to have this running before the mass transfer causes erratic orbit, after which the DS can fly what ever shaped orbit it needs.


*http://schlockmercenary.wikia.com/wiki/Discontiguo...
Warning serous risk of wasting time
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Haynes Workshop Manuals published the secret plans to the Death Star a while ago (which they must have stolen from the Rebel Alliance).

The US Government already rejected this petition in 2012.
In the words of the White House OMB Chief of the Science and Space, Paul Shawcross:

Quote:

Why would we spend countless taxpayer dollars on a Death Star with a fundamental flaw that can be exploited by a one-man starship?

For those evil overload wannabe's who are not daunted, and desire more reading material on the subject:
The Mad Scientist's Guide to World Domination

STF

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

It amuses me to think of engineers building a death stars as a hobby.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Not if it required iso-9000 certification (which I'm sure would be a requirement for a project of that size)

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

As expansive as the Star Wars universe could be, everything always comes back to building a death star, which can't be a very cost effective way of wrecking a planet.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

They should try populating the planet with a few billion people and give it a few centuries/millennia... that should wreck a planet pretty thoroughly. There's even a case study... bigcheeks

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

How would one handle sinking all the heat generated inside that thing?

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

I guess that's why it's black.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

I would make a few subtle changes to the plans so that the death Star will not assemble properly.
Then leak the plans to the enemy along with the name of your favorite defence contractor.
Cost plus, over runs, extras and other boondogles will set their civilization back for te far foreseeable future.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Cost and material estimates for Death Star construction were generously provided by Centives.net at approximately 852 quadrillion dollars (2012, USD).

Norman Augustine published his book Augustine's Laws in 1977. His laws governing engineering and business costs were remarkably prescient.
Attempts to update his laws have shown that current trends in defense spending still obey his predictions.
His most cited law is number 16, which shows that defense budgets grow linearly but the unit cost of a new military aircraft grows exponentially.



Augustine's Law number 16 has been extrapolated to estimate when the defense budget would increase sufficiently to afford to construct the Death Star - the ultimate weapon of Star Wars. The result is that the Death Star will be an affordable option for the US military in the year 2180. The graph below shows the extrapolation of 20th century data, with the vertical axis being exponents of 10.



Hopefully the people of Proxima Centauri will be the first to take heed, and begin to master the construction and piloting of small cruciform-winged air-to-space craft to combat this overwhelming war machine.

STF

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

(OP)
Well, the 52H "uses" the original 1.3 million dollar airframe built back in the early 60's, but the conversion from earlier engines and electronics to the H model was "recent" using new-fangled" dollars now worth less (some would use worthless there), so the costs for the modifications are now many times the original price of the entire plane.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

I believe you are mistaken, the B-52H was built with the new engines back in the 60's - various ideas to re-engine them since have failed. While the electronics have been upgraded several times it didn't result in a change of designation, and I'm not sure there was a major upgrade in the time frame the graph gives.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Doesn't look right to me, either.
That's one strike against my journalistic integrity.
The web article I copied it from (without credit) is nowhere to be found now, too. Strike 2+3
sad

Here's a better article: http://www.economist.com/node/16886851

STF

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Would someone want over 2,500 P-51s or 200 F-16s instead of one F-35? I suppose drones push a similar point, at least for ground support. I would feel more safe if 30 drones were loitering over me instead of a F-35 occasionally passing by.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

"or 200 F-16s instead of one F-35?"

That one is fairly debatable, and the answer may well be yes. The F16 in its original configuration is a highly agile fighter, the F-35 has suffered from a lot of feature creep and would likely not survive a dogfight in 1-on-1 with a good F16 driver. Of course, the F16 driver would need to close to visual distance, something the stealthiness of the 35 might not allow...unless (as in Vietnam) politics demand visual identification rules of engagement negating the long-distance weaponry advantage...

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

The visual thing makes since because of the number of airlines that have been shot down in recent history.

Or maybe conformation from the ground or drones before shooting long distance targets.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

btrueblood,

How effective is stealth technology, really? A weak radar signal means your aircraft is hard to distinguish from noise. Is there some way to process the noise signals to pick up something for example that keeps showing up at the same place?

Add a little software to your F-16. Make visual contact with the stealth aircraft. Shoot it down.

There was a huge battle in WWII with airborne radar. The successful night fighters were fast.

--
JHG

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Quote:

Why would we spend countless taxpayer dollars on a Death Star with a fundamental flaw that can be exploited by a one-man starship?
Following other posts -- we have, sort of:
F-22 $340M each, $68K per hour flight time, 66% mission availability, 195 units
F-35 $178M each, $42K per hour flight time, 68% mission availability, 180 unit
At 1/10 the cost of one F-35, an opponent could put up 8900 drones at a cost of $2000 each.
Picture being attacked by 10,000 gnats. yep, you're dead.
But that is only if we could get one in the air. One in three is not available.

Then there is the USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN-78) for $13 billion. It has 75 airplanes, gatling guns, antimissile missiles, even a laser, and a rail gun catapult (well, all most). $7 Million/day - but that doesn't count the peripheral airplanes and escorting ships to defend it from some nutjob in a supercub.

What will take it out? Don't know. Space based laser? Ballistic nuc? Nuc in a cargo ship moored in the same bay?

Following the earlier graph, how long until we have one airplane, one ship, one tank and they consume the entire military budget? God forbid if the Duchy of Fenwick attacks the day all three are in for maintenance.

And we would be okay. Cause the Marines with their non-electronic, non-laser M-16s would show up and tell them to go home. At least their equipment would still work.

Thank you for listening [/rant]

ice

(spelling/grammar edits)
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

Comparison is always interesting:


Aircraft :....... F-16C / F-35A
First Flight: ... 1974 / 2007
Into service: ... 1980 / 2017 (maybe)
Price : ......... 19 Million USD with the engine / ~100 Million USD (without the engine, which adds 13 Million)
Crew : .......... 1 / 1
Speed :.......... (Mach 2) 1215 knots / (Mach 1.6) 1040 knots
Design Load : ... 9.0 g / 9.0 g
Range : ......... 2850 km / 2200 km
Ceiling :........ 49,000 ft / 50,000 ft
Combat Radius :.. 550 km / 1100 km (estimated)
Notes on combat radius, as this is a "flaky" number:
The F-16 has a 550 km combat radius carrying 4,000 pounds of bombs.
The F-35 has a 1100 km combat radius carrying absolutely nothing.

Weight :....... 48,000 Lb / 60,000 Lb
Gun :.......... 20 mm / 25 mm
............... 500 rounds / 180 rounds

External
Armament :..... 15,000 Lb / 15,000 Lb
Bombs:
Mark 84 : ........... yes / yes
Mark 83 : ........... yes / yes
Mark 82 : ........... yes / yes
JDAM : .............. yes / yes
Paveway : ........... yes / yes
B61 Nuke : .......... yes / yes

Rockets : ........... yes / no
Countermeasures: .... flares / radar jamming
Stealth: ............ no / yes

Onboard Vision Systems
Radar : .......... yes / yes
Infrared: ........ yes / yes

Aircraft Carrier capable: No / Y (F-35 B+C variants only, which cost 30 Million USD more)


So, are we all eager to get our hands on some F-35's yet?

STF

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

(OP)
Waaaaay back as a pre-teenager in the Vietnam War, I used to wonder why they used "modern jets" (A-1, A-6, etc) instead of building lots of the "cheaper" WWII B-17's and B-24's like I used to make as model airplanes.

Until I looked at the A-10 vs B-17.
B-17, 10 men. 287 max speed (unloaded essentially).
The Memphis Belle was one of the first to finish 25 missions, flying 29 combat missions between 7 Nov 42 and 19 May 43. 194 days, 6.6 days per mission.
Assume that would be the maximum rate they could fly at the time of the war - given repairing engines, bad weather (VFR only and bad takeoffs killed many thousands anyway!), crew time, guns, ammo, bomb reloading, etc for massed missions. And massed missions were the only ones they could fly.
So, one mission every week. (More or less.)
12,800 maximum bomb load mission at 170 speed, 8 hour flight, 689 combat range.
10,000 maximum speed mission at 214 speed, 5.81 hour flight, 589 combat range.
10 men.
And less than 20% of the bombs fell within 2 miles of their target!

A-10.
1 pilot. Refueled in air when needed. 8 hour missions still possible,
16,000 lb bomb load. 30 mm cannon always carried.
Precision-guided ammo = 80% hit rate. For EVERY precision bomb or rocket carried.
450 knot speed for 2240 mile range.
Up to 2-3 missions per day, AVERAGING 1.4 missions per day based on 144 aircraft and pilots flying 8100 missions in 39 days in Desert Storm.

Costs more. But 1/6 the price of a single A-35.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

The slope of the learning curve was a lot steeper back then. Aeronautical engineering had big strides yet to be made.
Today's learning curve isn't as much about aeronautical engineering - it seems to be systems engineering.
Cramming more electronics on board seems to be the goal.
The box with wings is just a platform for getting the general's eyeballs closer to the battle.

STF

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

An A-10 is a slow flying MANPAD and SAM target. 10 were shot down in the first gulf war. In Afganistan, we just happen to be fighting groups that are only equipped with small arms. Any engagement with an armed country like Iran, they would get shredded.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

There's some truth to that - and it doesn't just need to be the expensive stuff like MANPADs and SAMs either: Gulf I also showed how much damage modern AAA can do.

A.

RE: How would you build the next Death Star?

If we keep at least a few of each, then whoever we fight would need to have a defence for all of them. Sort of costly defence.

The point being that if we make war costly enough that no one can afford to start one, or we just just deploy the tools to exploit there holes, we make the war shorter.

The hardest war to win is when children are the ones throwing rocks.

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