California Warehouse Fire
California Warehouse Fire
(OP)
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-fire-...
Looks like a change in Use and Occupancy... exit requirements and exiting distances...
Dik
Looks like a change in Use and Occupancy... exit requirements and exiting distances...
Dik





RE: California Warehouse Fire
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
If you would of said at any time, "...this building is going to kill 40 people.." of course actions would immediately happen. But the problem with codes and code enforcement is that several (bad) circumstances need to happen before they come into play. In this case, you had code violations, then a party, then a fire and then you need egress and fire protection.
We engineers and architects do a pretty good job of designing and avoiding 75% of potential tragedies. But diligent code enforcement is required to avoid another 20%. And maybe this can go up to 24%. But bad stuff happens. People bring their charcoal grill in their apartment to barbecue. You can't regulate stupid.
Add to that that certain very influential people have given a bad name to regulation (which codes and code enforcement are) and are attempting to strangle it at every turn. In my town, there were newspaper editorials a few years ago because some poor small business (keyword) couldn't expand (another keyword) without a building permit. So building permits are bad.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
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RE: California Warehouse Fire
Deathtol currently at 24, and may be c!mining.
Dim
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
According to news reports, the City did know.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Read this .... City officials and fire marshals denied entrance to this obvious artsy firetrap full of fuel .....
http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/arti...
Somebody employed by the city was collecting their paycheck but not doing their job !!!!
How many more of these "Ghost Ships" are there in other cities ???
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
RE: California Warehouse Fire
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Follow-up question modified by inserting three words. Do the city inspectors have the authority to gain access to your house by whatever means are necessary?
And to forestall a related question: Do the city inspectors have the authority to gain access to a place of business by whatever means are necessary?
In my part of the world, doing that would require getting a warrant and that would require probable cause to be shown, but I would think that if a noisy party were in progress, it ought to be evident from outside, which ought to be probable cause, and the cops ought to have been able to get a warrant pretty quickly.
Can't prevent stupid ... if the building's occupants had been quiet about what they were doing, so as not to arouse suspicion from outside, they could easily have created this fire hazard without having drawn attention to it and the same thing could have happened - but if the news report is accurate that the city knew about the problem, someone didn't do their job.
I know someone who lived in an upstairs balcony in his workshop for several years.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
It takes time to get a warrant for entry. Then you have to have the right authorities available to force entry. Unless the danger is imminent, I'm sure that the procedures are maddeningly slow.
This will be fixed for a while in Oakland. Then eventually things will go back to the status quo.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: California Warehouse Fire
CA CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE
SECTION 1822.50-1822.60
1822.50. An inspection warrant is an order, in writing, in the name
of the people, signed by a judge of a court of record, directed to a
state or local official, commanding him to conduct any inspection
required or authorized by state or local law or regulation relating
to building, fire, safety, plumbing, electrical, health, labor, or
zoning.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
OAKLAND, Calif. Authorities in Oakland, California, said on Tuesday they do not expect the death toll from a blaze that engulfed a converted warehouse during a dance party to rise above 36, but could not rule it out as they continued picking through debris.
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Apparently a Guy and his Wife and 3 kids lived there acting as the Property Manager. He collected rents from 5 to $800/mo. He also collected a month's rent deposit and a one-time 'improvement' fee providing a list of things to be improved of which none were ever implemented. The place had limited access to reduce visitor surprises because when visitors came everyone had to go thru a Chinese Fire Drill of removing drying clothes and other things that gave evidence of people actually living in the otherwise only "art space".
An ex-tenant said that with dozens of extension cords running and draped everywhere she knew it was only a matter of time before the place went up and moved out as soon as she could.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Recall they had to go thru like 4 police chiefs in a couple of months. Some scandal would occur and each would resign because, "Oh, I was maybe involved with the underage prostitute too", kind of debacles.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
The other disturbing element is that the CA agency for child protected removed 3 different children from 3 different families in the previous 24 months. That fact alone confirms the building was a Residential use and would have dictated automatic sprinkler protection per 2012 IBC and the 2012 IFC.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
From the AP, "The illegally occupied Oakland warehouse where dozens of partygoers perished in a blaze does not appear in a database fire inspectors use to schedule inspections and may never have been checked for fire hazards, a firefighter with knowledge of the situation told The Associated Press."
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
the owner;
the master tenants;
the residents;
the people at the party;
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.
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.
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the city.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
I'm surprised a class action has not yet commenced.
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
I clicked on MJCronin's link, then I followed the link at the bottom of the page...
As Oakland arts scene thrived in industrial spaces, city fell short on monitoring
If I were a city employee, I would not be kicking peoples' doors in. I am not paid for it, trained for it, or equipped for it. It appears that Ghost Ship had a routine worked out to conceal inhabitants from official visitors. Perhaps this is the red flag that should tell people to not live there.
--
JHG
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
The term today boys and girls is Joint and Several Liability. The city may not be anywhere near the most responsible party, but everyone else here sounds indigent. The city could wind up paying most of the settlement.
On the other hand, people either died, or they escaped. We do not have long term medical care or damage to expensive property.
About forty years ago, I worked part time as a security guard. I was checked out to see if I had a criminal record, I was fingerprinted, and that was it. If criminals had shown up at one of the construction sites or events I worked at, I would have called the police, then I would have retreated to a safe place. I had no training. I was not armed. I was not responsible for anything once I alerted authorities.
If you are a city inspector responding to complaints about garbage, you arrive at the site and see garbage, and you write a report. If they don't let you in the building, your choices are to kick the door in, or retreat. Almost certainly, you don't have the authority to use force. If the building is classified as a warehouse, the city has no duty of care.
--
JHG
RE: California Warehouse Fire
From the Washington Post
According to Almena’s defense team’s investigation, the fire could not have started inside Ghost Ship because the electric power distribution to the warehouse originated from the adjacent building. The attorneys declined to name the expert who came up with the findings and only said that that person is “qualified by both education and experience.”
Records show that city officials were aware of possible code violations as early as November. Complaints filed with the city alleged blight around the building and illegal construction and residential use inside. A city inspector visited the warehouse not long before the fire to document the blight outside, but was unable to go in. An investigation into possible illegal housing was still pending when the fire happened.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
What a moronic statement!
So what, any electrical fire in any building was caused by the power company because the power originated outside the building? Sounds like good solid lawyer-speak.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
I've never been offered a bribe, so how does one get into this sort of business? How does one put there name out there? Exactly how does this work?
The fact is laws were broken by the landlord, and he knew it. The fact that the city did not enforce the laws is a bad thing. But how many speeders have you seen that did not get tickets? Would that make it the states fault if they get into a crash? I could come up with more examples of state and local police not enforcing ALL the laws.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
HOW MANY OTHER GHOST SHIPS ARE OUT THERE ???
Yes, yes.... Lawyers are the servants of Satan .... but
Why cannot the lessons learned here be used to save possible future lives ???
There has to be other disasters waiting to happen in other West Coast Art enclaves ...
In the USA we pay more attention to the antics of half dressed Kardashians than to existing life safety codes...
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Okay, you own a warehouse. The city is curious about what you have in there. Can they walk in whenever they want?
There is a community of arty types out there who are libertarians, and who want the government to stay out of whatever they are doing. The arguments, however valid they are, have been worked out. This is the USA. The person who does not want you in his warehouse may be armed.
--
JHG
RE: California Warehouse Fire
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: California Warehouse Fire
CA CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE
SECTION 1822.50-1822.60
1822.50. An inspection warrant is an order, in writing, in the name
of the people, signed by a judge of a court of record, directed to a
state or local official, commanding him to conduct any inspection
required or authorized by state or local law or regulation relating
to building, fire, safety, plumbing, electrical, health, labor, or
zoning.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
If you live in a city, you have the right to vote on those regulations, or not. But so does everyone else. So accept the rules of the community.
The building owner is at fault for not looking out for the public safety of those living there.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Since the recent eminent domain case in SCOTUS, the government can take your property from you, even if your property is not a blight, and even if the purpose is not for pure revitalization.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: California Warehouse Fire
There were documented complaints to the city that there was garbage stacked in the hallways everywhere, holes thru floors, walls and ceilings, crack users in the attic, plugged toilets, heaps of garbage in the back yard, exposed wires, more than an inch of standing water on the first floor, and so many rats living in the place that one lady who escaped in her robe with only her purse at the 5AM fire said, "A least the rats are dead".
Oh, and the Fire Chief is retiring in a few weeks with her six figure pension.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: California Warehouse Fire
According to the report posted late on the city of Oakland's website, investigators cannot rule out an electrical failure, candles, incense, smoking material or an open flame as possible causes.
Investigators determined the blaze originated on a back corner on the ground floor of the two-story building but they couldn't pinpoint a cause because of the extensive fire damage."
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
“It’s lost,” Serra said of the referral. “We attribute it to the fact that the local fire department was very friendly with our client… wanted to give him a pass.”
Also the Fire Captain should check to see how his one page report was sent up the channel...
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire
No record of the report? Convenient!
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: California Warehouse Fire
RE: California Warehouse Fire
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: California Warehouse Fire
Dik
RE: California Warehouse Fire