SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
(OP)
Late October/early November was the peak political ‘season’ in the US, and not just federally, but also in some local mayoral elections too.
Check out this project.
There are multiple elevated spans of a concrete guideway system for steel wheels on steel rail for the currently under-construction light rail system. 2 tracks, electric cars, 20 miles in length when complete, with 21 stations. Near all are elevated guideways. Most are match-cast precast segments with epoxy joints and PT. Constructed on temporary pier-to-pier erection trusses.
A typical section and elevation:

So of the 1500+ tendons in the project to date, less than 12 have had some grouting/water/corrosion issues. Several of which were replaced by the contractor.
The owner and the contractor have engaged specialist consultants, Wiss Janney Elstner, and Exponent, respectively, to provide root-cause analysis and materials testing etc.
The project, generally, has been controversial from the get-go. It is grossly over budget, behind schedule, and short of funds. Even the current Head of School at UH Civil Engineering has shared his views and unsuccessfully ran for mayor a few years back, on the ‘no-rail’ platform.
But I have never seen this before: The following (see Link for better resolution, from the SE's local PAC website) was authored by a local Structural Engineer in the interest of public safety and "to inform the public of possible catastrophic collapse". At his personal cost of $17,000 he ran this advertisement in a weekend edition of the Honolulu Advertiser newspaper – the only local newspaper - on 10/30/16.

So fellow ET'ers, you as observers, removed from the politics of the project, do you think the SE’s motivation are altruistic or political, and would you personally go to this measure if it was your neighborhood project?
Check out this project.
OWNER: Honolulu Authority for Rapid Transportation
CONTRACTOR: Kiewit
ENGINEER: Parsons-Brinkerhoff (now WSP?)
PROJECT: Honolulu rail guideway structures
There are multiple elevated spans of a concrete guideway system for steel wheels on steel rail for the currently under-construction light rail system. 2 tracks, electric cars, 20 miles in length when complete, with 21 stations. Near all are elevated guideways. Most are match-cast precast segments with epoxy joints and PT. Constructed on temporary pier-to-pier erection trusses.
A typical section and elevation:

So of the 1500+ tendons in the project to date, less than 12 have had some grouting/water/corrosion issues. Several of which were replaced by the contractor.
The owner and the contractor have engaged specialist consultants, Wiss Janney Elstner, and Exponent, respectively, to provide root-cause analysis and materials testing etc.
The project, generally, has been controversial from the get-go. It is grossly over budget, behind schedule, and short of funds. Even the current Head of School at UH Civil Engineering has shared his views and unsuccessfully ran for mayor a few years back, on the ‘no-rail’ platform.
But I have never seen this before: The following (see Link for better resolution, from the SE's local PAC website) was authored by a local Structural Engineer in the interest of public safety and "to inform the public of possible catastrophic collapse". At his personal cost of $17,000 he ran this advertisement in a weekend edition of the Honolulu Advertiser newspaper – the only local newspaper - on 10/30/16.

So fellow ET'ers, you as observers, removed from the politics of the project, do you think the SE’s motivation are altruistic or political, and would you personally go to this measure if it was your neighborhood project?






RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
I fail to see what this does other then instill fear in people that have little to no understanding of the structural principals at work. I will say that he did a good job of explaining the system to the layperson. However, if Mr. Mitsunaga has done some serious due diligence behind the scenes to get some additional oversight (the SE type) and has been stonewalled, then perhaps starting a public movement is the tool needed to get the oversight to occur.
More than 20% of the tendons were found to be defective. That is a scary number. Political or not. Overall, I feel that his motivations are in the right place, but if he hasn't tried to make any changes before going public then it feels a little dirty to me.
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
The 12 out of 57 needs to be put into context, in that the contractor knew of such defects before the 'testing' and was proactive in replacing those 12: As follows:
So from a sampling perspective (in light that 12 of the tendons were not a random sampling of the total tendon population) it may be more correct to say that: 45 (57 less 12) of 45 were tested and found to be okay.
But too early to tell when less than 5% have been randomly selected and tested to date.
I am confident that WJE and Exponent will both do the utmost professional assessment to arrive at their conclusions.
Just interesting to see an engineer go to such a measure of placing an advertisement in a newspaper to highlight an issue. Even with the controversy of the new Oakland-Bay Bridge in SF with it issues of water ingress and stress corrosion cracking of high-tensile bars, there was lots of disagreement between CALTRANS, a UC Berkeley professor, and others, that got played out in the media (radio, TV and newspaper) but more so as an current news topic, or editorial, not an outright advertisement.
For this project, I smell 'politics' disguised as 'public safety', but I may be wrong.
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
Very true.
Also my experience, too.
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
NOTE: This memorandum is written in the interest of PUBLIC SAFETY and is addressed to all the news media outlets in hopes that they can help to ensure the Life safety … in the future.
Wrong: if there’s an issue of public safety you take it to the authority having jurisdiction. If he hasn’t done this yet, the public advertisement here is hogwash in my opinion.
The purpose of this memorandum is to make the public aware of the future dangers of allowing the Rail Project to proceed on the same track that it is now, and to encourage the news media to follow up to see that the responsible parties rectify the situation.
I can’t believe a licensed engineer believes that the “news media” can even remotely do this.
I have worked on many, many projects during my 47 years in practice and I have never come across a more mismanaged project than this Rail Project. I was motivated to come forth by the excellent reporting of Marcel Honore’ in the September 30, 2016 Star-Advertiser (SA) article “RISING COSTS, DEFECTIVE MATERIALS”.
So this guy knows that there is mismanagement from the article in the paper?
DESCRIPTION OF THE TENDON SYSTEM A tendon is actually a group of probably 10 to 20 steel post tension cables (0.5” or 0.6” in diameter) bunched together and housed in a flexible conduit or duct and installed in the concrete guideway beam or box girder. The flexible tendons are draped in a natural catenary…
The diagram posted above is not a catenary but rather a pair of concrete diaphragms holding the tendons in a double draped straight profile. So the engineer writing this apparently didn’t try to be very accurate with his description of the system involved. But he did say "probably" so that makes it all OK.
MODES OF FAILURE As one can see from the description of the tendon system described above, if enough of the tendons or their anchors fail, the entire box girder system will fail and could very well collapse.
This is true of any prestressed system – so mostly bluster to stir up the folks in my view.
According to the SA news article, water had seeped into some of the tendon anchors causing them to corrode and fail. This problem seems to be analogous to the railing section at Ala Moana Center that collapsed and caused the death of a 21 year old person and injury to another who happened to lean on the railing.
I get his point that sometimes rusting can occur without anyone seeing it. No problem here.
FOOTNOTE NO. 2: When steel rusts in concrete, it expands and flakes, causing the concrete to spall (break apart). Other modes of failure are: lower strength concrete and less reinforcing bars than required or specified, understressing cables, and improper tendon profiles.
All sorts of scary ways that structures can fail….but what does this have to do with the project he is complaining about? There’s nothing in those highly technical and accurate newspaper accounts that suggest too few bars, low strength concrete, improper profiles….maybe he’s crawling through the match-cast sections at night and found things…things that must be spoken as truth to power!!!
FOOTNOTE NO. 3: The post tensioning force is directly proportional to the carrying capacity of the girder. 0.5” diameter cables are normally stressed to 31,000 lbs. each and 0.6” diameter cables to 44,000 lbs. each. Understressing the cables will proportionately reduce the carrying capacity of the girder.
Total mismanagement here, obviously, as there are understressed cables happening everywhere. Forget the water infiltration and rusting...we have understressing to worry about! Don't ask him how he knows this.
FOOTNOTE NO. 4: At mid span, the distance from the top of the girder to the centroid of the tendon is directly proportional to the capacity of the girder. Conversely, so is the distance from the bottom of the girder to the centroid of the tendons over the supports.
Glad we got that settled…
QUESTIONS TO RAISE The SA article reports that 57 of 1,586 tendons already installed were tested and one dozen defective tendons were replaced. Question: What about the other 1,529 tendons that were not tested? Also, how can we know that water has not infiltrated into any of the untested tendons, and that the tendons are not slowly corroding like the collapsed railing at Ala Moana Center?
We don’t – but since WJE and others are looking at it I would suppose that this question is already being asked. Perhaps I’m naive but it seems to me that the engineers involved in the design would have similar concerns. Did this guy ever ask if there were additional follow-up testing going on? I doubt it as I suspect he was depending totally on the newspaper.
Other Questions: 1) When was the concrete for each section poured, the tendons stressed, and the tendons grouted? The Contract Documents must specify a time limit to grout the tendons to prevent the infiltration of rain water.
I bet they cast the box sections and ran them out to the project that afternoon.
2) To what load was each individual cable stressed to?
What does this have to do with water infiltration and rusting? Any stress level would have resulted in similar problems. Totally meaningless question.
3) Did someone qualified check the profile of the tendons before the concrete was placed, the specified 28 day compressive strength of the concrete, and the quantity and placement of the reinforcing bars?
Precast sections with the built-in-diaphragms don’t allow significant variations in profiles.
Going forward, it is my personal belief that third Party Oversight is sorely needed to oversee this project to completion. Perhaps the City can request the Hawaii Structural Engineers Association to put out an RFP and select an appropriate Structural Engineering firm to oversee this project, to check on the work already completed and also going forward.
And I bet his firm is just the firm to do it, dammit.
In my professional opinion, some action of this sort is necessary to ensure the public peace of mind that riding on the Rail will be safe.
Yes, peace of mind is needed, not public safety.
The news media can play an important role by raising the questions herein to the appropriate people. They can also check on the qualifications and resume of the government personnel running this project, to verify that they have Structural Engineering knowledge and private practice design experience, and are not just career government engineers with only Civil Engineering licenses.
Yes, the news media know exactly what qualifications are needed to design a match-cast prestressed elevated bridge.
It is my sincere hope that the appropriate government agencies will take measures to correct this problem and ensure the public that the Rail will be safe to travel on. My personal feeling is that traveling on the Guideway without assurance that it is structurally sound is like flying on a plane and wondering if the wings will fall off before landing at your destination.
Wait…I thought he didn’t trust the “government agencies” and needed the newspaper reporter with all the insight into engineering qualifications and wisdom to oversee this debacle. And besides, wings fall off all the time…what’s your problem.
Thank you for taking time to read through this very lengthy narrative. Being a Structural Engineer practicing in Hawaii for many years, I considered it to be my fiduciary responsibility to contribute what little I can to ensure that the Rail is constructed properly so its riders can travel safely all the way between Kapolei and the Ala Moana Center.
Wow….I never knew that my duty to protect the public welfare and safety was a “fiduciary” duty. I guess the phrase…”follow the money” is true after all.
In summary – this is a poorly written narrative, based on newspaper reports, and is full of meaningless “sky-is-falling” verbiage, and illogic. If this engineer was truly concerned about the quality of the project, then actions within the state engineering board, the local engineers societies, and mostly inquiries into the government project participants would be more appropriate than an expensive advertisement appealing to the media.
Is there politics behind it? I have no clue – but I do think this engineer is off the tracks and some of his prestressed cables have snapped.
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
Thank you for your detailed comments and review.
You picked up on many of the technical errors in his narrative.
It is disappointing that Mitsunaga did not bother to take some additional time to research the actual methodology of construction.
The author (as does any member of the public) has access to HART documents, which include contracts, presentations, info, board meetings, etc.: Link
For the benefit of those that wish to know what the author is referring about Ala Moana Center guard railing - see this link: Link
I was thinking along those lines too, Ron, but was not sure if it was a stretch. I could just imagine Mitsunaga saying to state PEALS board: "but I was only trying to make the public aware of a potential safety issue" and they respond saying "ok, but don't do it again". But this engineer has a history of "going public" with his comments on related subjects.
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
But I'm not going to pass judgement in my mind, because we also don't know what he may or may not know. If he wrote this article only based on what some reporter wrote in an earlier article than I agree with those here that he is making public engineering comments without any basis of knowledge to be making them and is unethical. On the other hand he might know a lot more about the situation than he is saying. And this might be his way of putting the screws to the government to stop allowing the poor construction to continue. Heck he might even be doing this as a favor to an engineer who is actually involved in the project but is not being listened to.
There are plenty examples of projects that simply kept barreling forward simply because there was only one or two engineers speaking up and disagreeing with the majority. And the majority saying, "It should be alright". People feel much more comfortable taking risks when they are in a group think situation. The space shuttle challenger comes to mind. But I think this happens in micro ways almost every day on every project in the country. We live in a country now where confrontation is bad. Offending someone is a bigger sin than telling them the truth. So maybe this is just one of those projects where the guys at the top are willing to keep going forward "As Is" and you have a few engineers who are lower down who are all quietly talking amongst themselves that they are really worried but publically they aren't willing to take the heat. Like you see others not doing the job right. It might not be your responsibility but what do you do when others who do have the responsibility aren't performing?
Lets face it. Most whistle blowers are hated. And worse. Most contractors don't believe what engineers are telling them in the first place. They only believe what they have seen. I was involved once on a project where the construction site had to be shut down. It was the right call and cost the owner millions which would never be fully recovered. While working as one of two successor engineers on the project that were tasked with repairing everything, I remember explaining to the contractor that if we didn't add some bracing the steel beams would be torqued and would twist. The contractor sort of rolled his eyes at me. He just couldn't see how hollowcore planks bearing on the steel beam could cause this to happen. I know most of you know what I'm talking about. That feeling that while you are telling them the truth they simply do not believe you. And you feel apologetic when you shouldn't.
Well once construction got started sure enough there was one beam that didn't get the additional retrofit bracing. Sure enough once they set the hollowcore planks down (even before the topping was poured) they could visually see the steel beam twisting. After that the contractor thought I was a genius......lol.
But my point is that this guy might be more of an insider than we know. He might be hearing all the information from people who do know what is going on. And perhaps he thought this was what had to be done because what might have been tried so far to sound the alarm hasn't worked. Certainly stirring up the media will cause public alarm. And public alarm will get the politicians to apply pressure. And perhaps that will remedy the situation.
On the other hand this guy could just be a narcissist. It is hard to know. I'm not writing him off though. Because I think silence and Monday morning quarterbacking are more likely than going on record publically before hand.
I will say the ratio of test failures is very high.
John Southard, M.S., P.E.
https://www.pdhlibrary.com/
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
That is the question for sure. Just based on the sloppy narrative he wrote I would question him before questioning the project.
Well, there were many points where he wrote things that revealed that he didn't really understand the design or system.
Yes, that is true for sure.
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: SE and PAC: altruistic or politically motivated?
John,
Thanks for your detailed comments.
Mitsunaga motivations for placement of the "public safety" advertisement appear related to getting incumbent Mayor Caldwell out of office on the Nov 8 election, hence the set up of Super PAC (Save Our City, LLC www.savehonolulu.org) where the $4,000 spending limits are not applicable. It did not work - Caldwell was reelected.
Messy stuff, politics. Let us hope that real engineering can be done outside of this mess.