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Snarky Architect
6

Snarky Architect

Snarky Architect

(OP)
I have an odd situation here so bear with me.

I am working on a project for a steel fabricator. The project was awarded by a GC to the steel fabricator. The GC also hired an architect who works directly for the GC. I went to a meeting the other day that was attended by the GC, Architect, Fabricator and I. During the meeting the architect brought up a question about something that he though was questionable on my drawings. I explained to him the design approach to which we rebuffed “Glad it’s not my stamp”. I didn’t think much of it at the meeting as my client, the steel fabricator, and I have worked together for 17 years and he knows why and how I operate.

However, looking back I am thinking the comment was quite rude and unprofessional. The situation is quite complicated. The GC is someone who I have been trying to obtain as a client (the fabricator knows this and doesn’t care) and the architect is someone who often works for the GC. This isn’t the first time I have had an issue with this architect and I am thinking he is trying to push the GC away from me and towards he preferred engineers.

There is another situation similar situation on a different project where I am working directly for the architect at the request of the GC and the architect "hung me out to dry" on a sticky situation in front of the GC and the end user.

I almost feel like I should confront the architect about this but I am beginning to think working with this client, the GC, isn't going to be worth the aggravation as they has used this architect for quite a long time. What would others do in this instance?

RE: Snarky Architect

Sometimes I call people out on it. Sometimes I decided that even that money isn't worth the aggravation. If this architect has a history of rude behavior in front of others, then yes, call him out, but be as professional about it as you can.

Good luck.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

RE: Snarky Architect

I'll guarantee that everyone involved is already aware that the architect is a lickknob.

RE: Snarky Architect

definitely rude and unprofessional

consider meeting with GC, the client you desire, and who apparently is willing to engage you as you have been on 2 projects now. 'dear GC, after the comments in the meeting, i just want to make sure you're happy and getting your money's worth. No, i don't worry about snarky architects as i'm used to it in that it comes with the territory and seems to be a necessary attribute to the profession. But in my 17 years experience this is what i see and what i can do / will do for you......"

i probably would not discuss with sir snarkiness as i doubt that he'll suddenly wake up and say, you know something, you're right! i've been a $%^ #$%%& ^&%&^%7 (^*&^87 ^&$&%$ all along!

RE: Snarky Architect

Snarky Architect? Isn't that redundant?
Call him out. You'll likely earn some respect from the GC and others!

RE: Snarky Architect

Bear in mind, though, the GC hired the architect, and "the architect is someone who often works for the GC" and "where I am working directly for the architect at the request of the GC and the architect "hung me out to dry" on a sticky situation in front of the GC and the end user."

The GC may have his own reasons for continuing to use someone that does this. Nevertheless, the GC continues to keep hiring the both of you. That speaks louder than anything else.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Snarky Architect

(OP)
I guess the problem is that I'm just starting to do work directly and indirectly with the GC. He has a bunch of nice projects coming up but this architects snarkyness might get inset week me and the client.

RE: Snarky Architect

Quote ("lickknob" )


Today's a good day: I learned a new term I can use in meetings.
Thanks Tick, you're the Tabasco in my Gumbo.wink

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Snarky Architect

Second pass...

"Well, we sure aren't using your stamp!"

RE: Snarky Architect

While I agree that the comment made by the architect was unprofessional, I think that if you were going to confront him or her about, the time to do it was when the comment was made, not days later. In my opinion, the more time that passes, the more petty your rebuttal will seem because everyone that witnessed the comment has moved on.

When comments are made, especially those that rub you the wrong way, I believe they should be addressed in the same forum in which they were made. For example, if the architect had called you on the phone and made a similar comment then I would have taken it up with him or her in a one-on-one setting. But if he or she made had called you out in front of others, then I would have immediately inquired further what their basis was for making such a comment. If you do not defend yourself on the spot, then others may walk away from that meeting doubting your design based on the unfavorable comments made.

RE: Snarky Architect

If my memory serves me right, it is unethical to berate another professional in front of a client.

Seems like the matter could be brought before the state board if this is a common practice of his.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Snarky Architect

(OP)
I pretty much figured it is too late. Problem is I never really think much of it when people say stuff like this. Putting both instances in, it just seems like a history is beginning to form and rather than let him keep going because he thinks he can it almost seems like I should try to stop it. However, all that is going to do is breed more contempt than anything else.

I also won't call what he did berating. I don't know what he did when I was "hung out to dry", but I guess it was my own fault.

RE: Snarky Architect

I can't believe you passed up the chance to coin the word snarkitecht.

RE: Snarky Architect


ASCE code of ethics Canon 5, Part G, except this applies to civil engineers not snarkitects
http://www.asce.org/uploadedFiles/About_ASCE/Ethic...

I would first look at this constructively, evaluate your design process and make sure it meets standards of care and not just because this is the way you have done it for 17 years. You owe that to your client. Is it possible that you have been doing it wrong for all this time? Otherwise, I would respectfully agree to disagree with him during these public comments. Or, if you would rather just poke the bear, Perhaps you could start giving him a little un-solicited friendly advice on the plans he stamps

RE: Snarky Architect

There's far more to be gained by blowing it off and being ready for the next round.

RE: Snarky Architect

Next time smile at him. Then politely remind him that, you've spent XX years specifically designing the structural aspects of buildings, and that if he had the expertise necessary to evaluate structural designs, you wouldn't be there. It resets everyone in the room that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about.

RE: Snarky Architect

I agree with the architect, I am also glad he's not stamping structural designs.

RE: Snarky Architect

"OK, thank you. Now does anyone have some relevant questions or comments?"

RE: Snarky Architect

When responding to his illustrious and endearing comments in any future meetings, just refer to him as "Mr. Snarky".

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Snarky Architect

"Wow, I guess performing floor area calculations or roof venting requirements must really hone your engineering skills"

I would not confront the architect. I think this is the sort of thing they are taught. The best way to deal with it is to either snip back in good nature or ignore. As long as you don't cross a line or make some comment more insulting than the architect they shouldn't get offended. And if you play your cards right maybe the GC will join the fun and poke fun as well.... or someone will leave crying it is a delicate game.

RE: Snarky Architect

(OP)
In the same meeting there were two confrontations. The first was between the architect and I with the architect being the aggressor. The second was between the GC and the architect with the GC being the aggressor. The GC commented after the second exchange that everyone was "being defensive".

I'm starting to think trying to obtain the GC as my client is unrealistic and not worth the effort. This is because no matter how much I make an effort the GC doesn't seem to notice or care and the projects I am getting from him seem to reflect this.

RE: Snarky Architect

2
These responses are always too late...

I think the most professional, while still putting him on the spot, would have been...in a non snarky, calmly worded, response:

"Can you help us (don't say -me-) understand where and why the design should be different (...or...understand the issues with this design, ...or...understand what you would have done differently, etc...)?"

Most of the time, they can't answer... they are just trying to 'show face' to the customer.

If he does answer...well then...your response is, 'Thank you for your input, I'll investigate it"...and follow up with the GC why you didn't, or did, take his advice.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Snarky Architect

These types of situations always bring to mind Edith Wharton's The Age of Innocence:

"...bursting with the belated eloquence of the inarticulate."

I always try to rise above these behaviors in others. It only makes the other party look worse.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Snarky Architect

I say look for some leisure time to spend with the snarkitect. Grab a beer after work. Go golfing. Putting in some humanizing time with him will reduce his professional insecurities. Many times a good engineer can shave down fluff, margin, and safety factors with confidence because of experience and knowledge. Your seal gives you that right.

RE: Snarky Architect

A lot of architects understand that everything besides engineering is basically a bunch of BS. It probably makes him feel good to put you down. He can fantasize about being professionally superior to you in some way for a fleeting moment. Jealousy in the work place manifests itself in ways that look a lot like the situations you describe.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin

RE: Snarky Architect

Quote (Panther140)

A lot of architects understand that everything besides engineering is basically a bunch of BS.

I doubt that a significant portion of engineers even believe that.

RE: Snarky Architect

3
So in a meeting this morning I had an extremely similar experience.

Situation: Schematic design meeting for a sizable commercial building project. A new addition is throwing a snow shadow onto an existing building. After I give my overview of the framing type and mention that reinforcement of the existing roof is required due to this additional snow load the architect turns to the client and says "Don't worry, no reinforcement is required, I guarantee it". The entire time he's speaking he's giving me the holier than thou look.

So when he finishes his guarantee my response is "How about we get together and compare design calculations to see where I went wrong in checking the existing roof?". The table chuckled, he went a touch red.

RE: Snarky Architect

wanting to get new client imho cannot be reason to allow anyone to disrespect you in such a manner.

if the guy has no heavy proof against your dealings, you should have sacked him, otherwise you are actually giving his points a weight.

it's all about arguments, and if your arguments are strong enough, you should defend them. that does not mean you need to be rude in return, but you can be firm and polite at the same time.

RE: Snarky Architect

@jayrod12

I know others would argue that you got "snarky" there, but I applaud you. Sometimes it's necessary, that Architect isn't likely to undermine your authority in your field of expertise again. Sometimes being too polite opens up the door for dealing with more of these types of comments in the future. I think what you said was the right balance of stating your credentials against his and showing he's out of his depth.

It does make me wonder about motivation. Is it really because he thinks he's superior? Or does he think the client believes the client thinks reinforcing is more money and that will make the client back out?

If you have the time, I would call/ask to meet and ask him his motivation for that line. If you get the feeling he's just a jerk, then write it off. If he says, "I was worried that the client would think it's too much money." You have an opportunity to tell him on future collaborations any concerns can be discussed together before the meeting if possible. I'm sure you both want the project to happen. If this is the case, it will bolster your relationship.

After writing this, I realize I wrote it all to jayrod12, but it's really general advice to anyone. I've been in a role involving a significant amount of sales for the last 4 years, and find that when two parties understand each others motivations, the relationship grows exponentially as does the ability to present in a manner that builds each other up.

RE: Snarky Architect

Don't burn bridges if you can help it. You never know which one's you will need to cross in the future. Even a fool is thought wise when he keep's his mouth shut.
The big part is don't let in bother you. Easier said than done.

RE: Snarky Architect

You may not want to burn bridges, but you shouldn't let the trolls overtake them, either. Both ends of the spectrum will end unhappily.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Snarky Architect

(OP)
At this point it is just too far removed to confront the architect. I still get the feeling that I am the redheaded step child in the contractor/architect/engineer relationship. I really don't care at this point, but should be ready for the new confrontation if it arises.

I usually sit in the corner and mind my own business unless asked about structural items. I figure this is the best approach to meetings especially when I am with my fabricator clients (they love to talk). I usually shove my foot in my mouth one way or another anyway.

RE: Snarky Architect

I followed Jayrod12's approach yesterday in a site visit with the client and the architect. Got a chuckle from the client and a probable enemy for life. Worked like a charm!

RE: Snarky Architect

Good for you avscorreia, it's not about making enemies or embarrassing someone. It's about standing your ground and showing the client that you input is required. If you happen to take the arch down a peg or two in the process then that's a bonus

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