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Desktop Waterjet

Desktop Waterjet

Desktop Waterjet

(OP)
I've been talking with one of the creators on/off for a couple of years, but they finally got their Kickstarter going:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294137530/th...

The $3,600 Early-Bird only had 30 units listed... I was #27 or #28, something like that. They had all 30 units claimed within the first 10 minutes of opening. For a $100k request, they're already at $336k with only 6-7 hours in. Now the unfortunate wait time of 1 year(?) starts.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Desktop Waterjet

12x18 cutting area ain't too bad.

Still have slots open to get a machine at the $4k price.

Way too many variables that could make/break the machine for me to "hope for the best" on a kickstarter, though.

The amount of maintenance and price of replacement parts for the high pressure components is a major concern. Especially if I have no idea if the company will be around 5 years after I buy one of their machines. It's not like this is a design from an established stable machine supplier. Rebuilding the pumps and intensifiers is a standard maintenance requirement. There are significant wear/consumable components in these machines.

Other significant items that make me pass this up:
  • I really want to know the max pressure it runs at

    Quote (Wazer)

    The water pressure is significantly higher than that of household appliances but lower than that of industrial waterjets. We are currently not divulging the exact pressure until patents are granted.
    Oops, oh well.
  • Quote (Wazer FAQ)

    CUTTING: What is the maximum material thickness that WAZER can cut through?
    This depends on what material you’re cutting. For steel, it’s around 3/16”, whereas for plastic it’s around ½”.
    3/16 / 7ga steel max? Ouch.
  • Accuracy... Advertised gantry location precision is .003" - not that great. Later in the FAQ, they mention the precision " is accurate enough such that hole patterns will line up from part to part." which doesn't inspire confidence.
  • No advertised kerf angle compensation, though at the thickness they are limited to, I imagine it's less of an issue. That would make it a significantly more expensive machine (A+B Motors on the head plus software that can judge the offset perpendicular to the cutting path at an amount commensurate to material cutting difficulty and thickness) So it's not a mark against, but a factor in whether or not I would want it
Neat gizmo, though. Would be nice to have, I'm sure. Just don't know if it's nice enough for the cost, which is admittedly fair.

RE: Desktop Waterjet

Clever guys.

Thanks for the heads up Dan! How do you detect offerings like this on KS?

I'm a little concerned by the operating costs. It looks like about $0.40/min. So the 90 minute sprocket is $36 to cut out. OUCH.


JNieman; Thanks for the brief analysis. You point out some important points.

I'm temped because I know how many things I was suddenly able to do when a got my CNC router. Many electronics jobs/projects I'd have probably passed on if I didn't have next-room access to routing. I suspect I'd have the same epiphanies with a waterjet in the next room.

My problem is that since I have a router that does aluminum, acrylic, wood, and polycarbonate with 0.001" accuracy a lot of the listed materials I already do. I've never needed to do ceramics or glass so I'm not sure I'd get the $5k out of it.

I just now finished a control panel that was a horror to fab the door on, 0.058" stainless. Amazingly this panel was merely 12" X 16" which would actually fit in this machine but it was probably the smallest I've ever done. I'd be pretty frustrating to be faced with a bigger panel that just doesn't fit...

Still it's interesting.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Desktop Waterjet

(OP)
This was their undergrad senior design project from back in 2012 (PA State?). They worked with the HAX incubator in China to get things going, but they'll do the final assembly here in the States.

I'm okay with the 3mil accuracy... I'm not making rockets. I've priced out waterjets of only slightly larger size beds (about 2'x2')... the price fast approaches $75k+, so I'm good with sub-$4k. Cutting speed is slower and the kerf is larger (about 60mils) than a professional machine (typically 20-40 mils), but I'm going to see if I can decrease the pressure a bit and put on a smaller nozzle. I would also like to recirculate the water (after filtering, of course) and see if recycling the garnet is possible. I question the feed rates on that garnet... they say the drawer on the side should be filled every 2-3 hours of cutting, and it looks like it can only hold a few pounds of garnet, at best.

It will allow me to custom cut shapes in tile/glass before putting them in the laser, so I'm excited about that.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Desktop Waterjet

They claim you cannot change the nozzle size which was another irritation of mine. Being able to tweak the abrasive flow rate and nozzle diameter can be important things - but I understand it's a machine for hobbyists or those who just want to "push button; receive parts" so I agree with the approach of making things overly controlled. Plus, it relies on their software to allow input of differing nozzle diameters to correctly offset the cutting path. So if you can't change your "cutting size" then you need to go and manually offset all geometry the desired amount to compensate for the changed kerf.

For a thesis project, this is impressive.

Oh, and another thing - how do they stop the waterjet from cutting through the bottom? Is the pressure so much lower that it dissipates in only a few inches of water? Can the water level be raised to cover the parts? Are there any accommodations for clamping or is it just left to the owner to figure something out, such as clamping to the bed/bars?

What about noise mitigation? Waterjets are harmfully loud. This small one, while smaller, still has a very high pressure water stream shooting through solids into a pool of water. This doesn't SEEM like something I'd want in an office environment! If I'm around a waterjet, I typically have to wear ear protection, but that is a machine running at 40k-60k psi, so I understand there is a difference as this is a lower pressure machine. Still seems like an issue. I assume it will be more likely to end up in a home-shop environment, but I will be surprised if it's something I could comfortably work near.

$4k is still a pretty amazing deal. I know of no other way to come close to what it can do for that price.

RE: Desktop Waterjet

(OP)
Currently, there is no software... I believe they are working on putting together a package in parallel with manufacture over the next year. As it stands, they're using commercial software for design... but it's not limited, so choose your favorite, from expensive AutoCAD to free Inkscape. The hobby-level 3D printers work on the same model... design in whatever package you want, then use their limited-function software (the slicer) to do the final control. I actually like that model as I'm not limited by what I can use for the actual design work. I prefer CorelDRAW and Inkscape, and this is the same paradigm I use with my laser and CNC machine (my $40k Trotec laser could hardly be called a hobby-level machine, either). Handling of kerf offset is par for the course with all of those machines. I think calling it a "push button / receive parts" type of machine is doing it a serious disservice, though.

Pressure-wise, they don't say... but their senior design project used 10kpsi (100psi of air, with a 100:1 multiplier unit), so my guess is it's somewhere in that vicinity. Their capture tank was a plastic bin from Target/Walmart with maybe a foot of water... no idea what they've gone with in this unit, but the depth looks somewhat similar. Their design project/prototype used mostly COTS parts, particularly for the multiplier, valves, etc... my guess is they've done the same here as the prices aren't that bad as individual parts and only get better in bulk.

If you watch the video, the guy mentions and installs some clips to hold the substrate to the bed... no detail is given on what those clips look like, but I think not including something like that would be folly. I can't speak intelligently as to the final noise level, but the video does have a bit near the end when the machine turns on and starts cutting. You have to remember, though, this is a system designed to be run from a standard 15A/120V socket (I would have gladly installed another 240V socket, if it required it)... therefore you're limited to pump power, and therefore total noise level. A commercial machine might be 15-20hp+, whereas this has to be under 2.5hp.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Desktop Waterjet

I wasn't talking about CAD software. I was talking about the CAM software that generates the program. Slicer? I thought Slicer was for 3dprinting - taking .stl files (usually) and creating programs from that. I was thinking more about what takes the geometry (dxf, etc) and creates a program (g-code, typically) from it based upon software settings and parameters. I guess there are probably open-source solutions but typically machines are bundled with their own blend, so my mind was stuck in that thinking.

I didn't mean it as a disservice to say "push button; receive parts" - it takes a lot of planning, control, and design intelligence to make a machine that easy to use for a novice. That's a very key market, too. I have a FDM 3dprinter which was selected purely because it met my minimum part quality desires, and had the least amount of setup and maintenance involved. I have much less 'control' over the minutia of the program but I don't care because -it works-. That's what I mean when I say "push button; receive parts" - I don't say it disparagingly. This isn't a machine for mass production of commercial objects where tuning and tweaking can net big profits. This is a consumer and hobby machine with light industrial applications that people just want to make work, and may not have the experience of a machinist or machine builder or mechanic to be able to trouble shoot or tweak it at all.

But yes, as far as noise level, it is the water jet and cutting noise I referred to - not necessarily the motor and intensifier, which isn't that bad.

RE: Desktop Waterjet

(OP)
The slicer was in context to the 3D printer mentioned earlier as an example. The post-processor should be relatively easy... but considering they've been cutting parts with this thing for the last couple of years, I have to assume they already have a rough version ready. It will depend upon what controller they are using for the gantry system, but plenty of examples already exist in the wild for G-code post-processors (I think the Gecko drives have a good base to work with).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Desktop Waterjet


Quote (Which components need to be replaced and how often?)

Just like any machine tool, WAZER has components that need to be replaced, they include:

Cutting bed: This is the surface that you will fasten the material you want to cut. The wear rate will primarily depend on the material, shapes, and repetition of your cuts, but average users can expect this to be every 25-75 hours of runtime.

Cutting Head: This is the set of components that prepare the water stream appropriately to cut your material. Many factors such as water quality and desired cut geometry can affect the rate of wear of these components. We understand the importance of knowing this figure and are in the process of evaluating this set of components for longevity. Once we have results we will share the numbers.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Desktop Waterjet

@itsmoked

I'm more interested in the intensifier that brings pressure up to cutting pressure. Experience tells me that rebuilding those every 400 hours to replace seals, lubricate, and basic PM is necessary, and every 800 hours typically require some basic machining and possible replacement of major components. At a lower pressure it likely isn't going to be as big of a problem but when we're talking about waterjets we're talking about very high pressures and parts that simply wear out. The combination of lower pressure than is common at industrial scales and a low price which may mean 'cheaper' components makes it an unknown. Lower pressure means longer life, to me, but the cheap price might mean less resilient components.

Rebuilding that stuff is a PITA even when you have a full machine shop at your disposal. If they don't even have a rough figure for the very simple cutting head consumables, I doubt they have a clue about their pump system.

I'm sorry if I'm seeming so negative. This isn't me trying to poop on their parade. Some of the flaws I point out are simply the nature of funding a Kickstarter for an unproven project (common) than it is about their particular machine. Other issues are not necessarily negatives - just unknowns. I only bring up the unknowns because that's things others might not think of, but more directly; they're things I would very much want to consider when weighing the cost/benefit of the particular machine. If I were less cautious, I'd be buying all sorts of really fun and capable machines like this. I love it. I'm not a fan of the 'maker' name itself but I'd say I fall well within that category.

RE: Desktop Waterjet

FWIW: http://hackaday.com/2014/01/14/hydro-the-low-cost-...

Unless significant revisions were made, the machine maxes out at 10kpsi as suggested by MacGyverS2000 earlier. There's a few things I'm not terribly keen on but there's some decent info in the pictures and video, there, to get an idea.

Really cool project for a thesis.

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