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how to move a mill

how to move a mill

RE: how to move a mill

A lift truck?

What appears to be a 'pan' to catch chips, is that easily removed? If so, remove it and then cut the sides off the pallet so that only the center part under the mill remains. Then get a couple of automotive floor jacks and a couple of 4x4's placed vertically under the horizontal bed (but only if it's attached solid to the mill) and on to the jacks. You only need to move it an inch or less to get the pallet out. Is this where you want it once it's off the pallet? If so you should be able to make it work. If the horizontal bed can support the weight of the mill then perhaps some more 4x4's and make an inverted 'U' frame from under the head down to the floor jacks (in that case you wouldn't need to worry about removing the 'chip pan'). But depending on the weight of the mill you might need to use an 'I-beam' for the horizontal part of the inverted 'U'.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: how to move a mill

(OP)
Unfortunately the pan doesn't look removable (at least not from the top), and we doubt it will support the weight. We also expect it weighs about a ton, maybe only 1800 lbs. if we are lucky!

Good idea on cutting the pallet that we don't need out of the way. That may open up some possibilities. I'll have access to the mill again next Thursday.

Z

RE: how to move a mill

Simplest solution; call a rigger.
Also the cheapest solution, counting medical bills.
That machine is heavy, and the CG is way up high, and heavy parts can fall off.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: how to move a mill

Hi,
How about a couple of kilos of C4, strategically placed. (Don't laugh, I have seen explosives used before in an underground mine, when the miners were trying to place an ore crusher into final position).

Do you have access to a fork-lift at this facility?

Other than that I agree with Mike, get a professional industrial mover.

RE: how to move a mill

This almost sounds like the invention example out of my TRIZ training class. One option might be to apply a purported method the ancients supposedly use to move giant monoliths, which was to use wooden rollers to move the objects. You'd need to lever the machine off the pallet and onto a buch of wooden rollers. The top-heaviness would still be a problem, though.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: how to move a mill

Jacking screws or studs through the base casting with nut and washer below the base, then cut the pallet away around them. Lower by winding the nuts to get within 3/4" of the floor.

RE: how to move a mill

Advancement on ScottyUK's suggestion

Google "toe jack"

This is like a bottle jack, but lifts a lip at ground level.

You also Need a stack of shim steel, say down to 1 mm

Cut the pallet away around the mill base

Jack up one side, cut more of the pallet away

Shim up to support the mill

Repeat on the other three sides until mill supported on four stacks of shim

Remove rest of pallet

Jack up each side in turn, removing some shim each time (to keep mill as vertical as possible)

You could remove all shims, or just leave enough to to keep mill vertical

Bolt down and grout around shims

Please remember to brace mill (or tie to wall) to prevent it falling over


RE: how to move a mill

If you are ready to take the risk, you could proceed as follows:
1) use two rounds as rollers (see the beginning of the video posted by byrdj) to take the base a couple of inches out of the front of the pallet
2) put, in front of the pallet a stack of chipboard panels half an inch thick, with a total height half an inch less than the pallet
3) using rounds with a diameter half an inch bigger than the former two (or a little less than that), get the base onto the stack
4) replace the two bigger rounds with the smaller ones (this is the most dangerous part, be very careful, use intermediate size rounds to be safer)
5) now remove the pallet
6) in place of the pallet put a second stack of chipboard panels one thickness lower than the other one
7) repeat all the operations above to get the machine half an inch lower and continue till you can finally get to the floor.
I guess that the egyptians could have used such a procedure, but of course nowadays a lift would do that in a faster and safer way. Note however that, to move the machine to a different location on the same floor, you'll still need the rounds under the base as in the video.

prex
http://www.xcalcs.com : Online engineering calculations
http://www.megamag.it : Magnetic brakes and launchers for fun rides
http://www.levitans.com : Air bearing pads

RE: how to move a mill

Been there, done that... call a rigger. You'll thank me in the morning. The cost will be relatively cheap if it's already in the rough position you want it. things get expensive when they're moving it to another spot/building.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to move a mill

It's a knee mill which countless people have successfully lifted safely and lived to tell about it. I doubt the school is in a position to waste money on a rigger for this simple operation.

It's common practice to loop straps under the head and lift straight up from there. Center of mass is in a friendly point, then. For this you'd need a forklift or a good attach point and a suitable hoist. Suitable frames can be built adjacent, with a spanning beam to get by, but that requires careful planning. We move our knee mills around with straps held under a fork lift. We have a pretty stout fork lift though. And the clearance height.

If you can't find a fork lift with appropriate lifting capacity, the thing can be taken apart. I don't have experience with Millrite makes specifically, but the bolt attachment points should be pretty obvious. None of the subassemblies are light enough to lift without mechanical assistance, still. But for lighter lifting equipment, it might help.

You would just need to tram it in once you put it back together. Something you'd want to do even if you didn't take it apart, anyways.

Be very careful if you're going to lift from the bottom. The top/head is very heavy. Not a good idea to tilt it much at all. Unless you tie it off to something sturdy, above, to prevent overtipping.

RE: how to move a mill

Quote (JNieman)

It's a knee mill which countless people have successfully lifted safely and lived to tell about it. I doubt the school is in a position to waste money on a rigger for this simple operation.

If you can't find a fork lift with appropriate lifting capacity...
Never seen a school that had a fork lift.

But if the school isn't in a position to "afford" a rigger, how much of a position are they going to be in to afford a lawsuit when someone crushes a hand/foot?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: how to move a mill

So don't put your squishy bits under the heavy stuff.

Make sure the heavy shit won't fall.

Make sure the top heavy thing isn't going to tilt over.

All you're doing is taking the weight off the pallet so you can yank it out, then lowering the mill back down. It's not like they're moving it to a 3rd story lab.

If a rigger wants to donate his time - all the better. I just know how hard-up for cash a school is, and that sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get kids the best tools for their education. People involved with FIRST Robotics teams are especially aware of this. I understand a forklift may not be available - alternatives are mentioned. Our local high school has a fork lift the metal shop teacher maintains. They use it because their metal shop guys make some pretty heavy stuff that they have to move around from time to time. They also have some machines that they need to move. The high school I went to was just down the street from a woodworking shop that had a hefty forklift where I'm sure they'd be more than willing to drive down the street and lend a hand.

Actually USING that machine is potentially much more dangerous than moving it. But no one here has batted an eye at that, yet.

Why are a few engineers so afraid to solve the problem themselves, and so quick to sub the work out? Stop focusing on potential failures and find potential solutions. :)


Tangent:

OP - My son just started 4th grade, which puts him in range of the LEGO teams, but I've been thinking more about 7th grade when he's of age to start the competition stage. The closest FIRST Team is prohibitively far away. Do you have any experience or advise in STARTING a team? My son's school has a pretty respectable STEM education separate from their basic SCIENCE classes that is pretty neat. I think if I got to know the STEM teacher we may be able to rally enough kids to participate and start begging for soliciting donations from the community to support them. My son is a nut for science/STEM topics and for semi-selfish reasons (if we're going to share a hobby, it may as well be fun for both of us!) I've also been encouraging it heavily.

RE: how to move a mill

A large block of ice the thickness of the pallet. Move it on to the ice with pinch bars and let the ice melt. If one side starts to melt faster use a fan on the opposite side to even it out.
Share this idea with the student who wanted to use fire. He will like it.
I saw this method used to lower the base of a walking dragline during construction. It had to come down about four feet. Took a couple of days with a couple of men on duty monitoring the progress and turning the fans on as needed.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

I used a rigger to move my Bridgeport mill off my flat bed trailer and into the shop. Had to pay for 4 hours work, though.

RE: how to move a mill

I can see both sides of the argument for and against using a rigger/machine mover.
Over the years we have moved a fair few machines in, out and around my factory and have purchased skates and wheeled crowbars to help. An a-frame gantry and chain hoist would seem to be what's required here. Old machines normally have threaded holes for lifting eyes (though I admit we usually had to find out the thread and order lifting eyes (now where have I put my 15/16ths Whitworth lifting eyes?)) It can take time but long crowbars and a load of shims (say 5mm thick steel offcuts) have sufficed. Oh and a lot of patience.
Actually we find moving our new Haas CNC's a pain because they don't use lifting eyes and are horrible to lift with a forklift.
That said whenever we do use riggers they make it look Sooooooo easy. Their equipment is just much nicer than ours and that's what they do all day long. They have always proved very cost effective from a business point of view, but for an educational establishment - well you could get a quote and sweet talk the PTA.
(I remember being amazed watching one rigger delivering a large manual lathe to us (weight >3 tonnes - he reached it through our delivery doors using the crane on his lorry, a distance over 10 meters, and positioned it using a remote control. He adjusted it +/- 2mm at that reach. I asked him about it and he said he'd had the lorry built to his specification and that the accuracy was down to the hydraulic "spools" he had specified. I know the square root of 2% of f*** all about hydraulics but I'm guessing this is something to do with the valves controlling the hydraulic flow. Either way it was REALLY impressive)

And I have to say I love the ice idea. it's so (and you'll have to forgive me for this) cool!

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

RE: how to move a mill

The reverse of my scheme is how I was taught how to install and align plant (frequency changers, large electric motors etc) 40 years ago.

You get them craned off the truck onto wooden rail sleepers and proceed from there.

No need for rollers, just sleepers and a tirfor rope winch if it has to be moved inside.

Piece of Pxxs.

If it is in school, they will learn so much from watching a useless old fxxxt like me do it, just like I learnt.

Oh! Just like I learnt, you have a stack of shims at each corner, and in the center of each long side. So you keep shimming to get each shim pack tight. By it does not work like that.... You always have one shim pack slack...... Eventually, when your machine is tottering skywards on ever rising shim packs, you are rescued by the people who really know what they are doing, one always has to be slack. Why did the old guys like to make 3 legged stools, rather than four legged?

Geometry. You can never get a four legged chair level if it were not for flexibility.

Oh yes, one day I was appointed service manager.

I walked into my office, and on my desk was a shim pack, with a note attached "the beer is on us."

RE: how to move a mill

Rent a forklift, or if you have the ceiling height, a lifting tripod and suitable (2T) chainfall hoist and slings.

How did the pallet get off the truck, if a truck was used? How did the machine get onto the pallet? Presumably, not sending that equipment home until it had the machine in more or less the right place would have been the best course of action.

There are many alternatives to the right way. They can succeed, or fail. The trouble is, failure is potentially very costly indeed. Backwoods millwrighting is an art, and professional millwrighting is a trade. Both require experience. The latter comes generally with access to the right equipment.

Next time, have it shipped on a couple loose 4x4s instead of a pallet. That gives you more options. Destroying a pallet selectively while it bears the weight of a heavy piece of equipment is harder to do safely than it may seem at first blush.

RE: how to move a mill

(OP)
Thanks for all the advice! I'll take this back to the group and see how we want to proceed.

I agree that safety is a concern once we start operating the mill. Luckily a few of our mentors are well trained operators. Even a couple of the trained students are pretty impressive!

Jneiman - I'll start another thread on starting a FIRST group.

RE: how to move a mill

What was used to move the pallet into the position it's in now?
Not a forklift? Everyone seems to assume that you don't have a forklift and can't get one there, but I can't figure out how you got the pallet with a Bridgeport on it to that spot WITHOUT a forklift. I second JNeiman's suggestion as the simplest by far.

STF

RE: how to move a mill

Possibly on a truck with a power end gate and a pallet jack.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

I would go to the practical machinist website and search there. I have seen many practical ideas there and you will find pictures of it in progress.

RE: how to move a mill

My suggestion of ice was somewhat tongue in cheek. I liked the kid who wanted to burn the pallet and thought he may enjoy seeing another non-traditional approach that has actually been used with the intended results.
As far as moving the machine, I would want to be on site and see what assets were available before even thinking about a method.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

I've heard of ice being used when setting large storage tanks. Crane sets the tank on the ice approximately correctly and the riggers do the rest.

RE: how to move a mill

Okay, I took another look at the picture.
There are four mounting holes in the base.
Purchase a length of 5/8" or 3/4" AllThread or ReadyRod and four nuts.
Stabilize the machine.
Cut away the pallet board under the left front corner of the mill.
Insert a length of AllThread into the hole and thread through a nut on the underside.
Turn the rod with a pipe wrench or similar tool until it takes some weight.
Repeat for the other three corners.
Remove the pallet.
Turn the rods to lower the mill.
Try to rig something to stabilize the mill during this operation.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

How do you remove the four nuts that will now be between the floor and base of the mill once the four lengths pf AllThread has been completely 'threaded-out' and removed?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: how to move a mill

Abandon in place?? They're not expensive.
You may want to tac weld a piece of scrap to each nut so that it cannot turn freely.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

John, just lower it onto a couple of lengths of scrap bar and retrieve the nuts. The last 3/4" of lowering is pretty straightforward.

Bill - our methods aren't far apart. smile

RE: how to move a mill

Sorry Scotty. Blame it on loss of short term memory. grin
Our methods are identical, but you said it first.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

OK- if you can get decent sized jack screws through those holes, doing as suggested will work just fine- assuming it's done slowly and uniformly. The big worry would be getting this sucker off balance as its C of G is way up in the air likely.

RE: how to move a mill

Remove the electric motor on the top, that will help lower the CG.
Lower the table as low as it will go.
Remove the "knobs" that will hang you up and catch on things.
I like the all-thread idea to get rid of the pallet
Use 1.5 to 2 inch steel rod as rollers, lower down onto the rollers.
This is where the husky high school kids come in handy.
Slowly push, and replenish the steel rods.
Stop often and check alignment and for obstacles.

RE: how to move a mill

1) Crate of bear

2) Lifting straps

3) The first XV, or football team or whatever group of overly muscled athletes you can find.

Point out where they can lift it, promise them bear if they get it off the pallet.


Alternatively, UHMWPE tape, long prybars, Johnson bar, blocks of wood for levers... Trimming down the pallet as John suggests may make this simpler.

Definitely pay attention to not putting parts of anyones anatomy under the heavy load. We move a lot of big stages on several hundred pound blocks of granite quite frequently using leavers, rollers, pry bars... but the number one rule is to not put your digits etc. under the granite. Number 2 rule is to make sure nothing can unintentionally slide.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: how to move a mill

I can't emphasize enough that you don't want to tilt a top heavy knee mill at all...

RE: how to move a mill

I would task all of the students on this robotics team to use their family networks to search for a suitable lifting frame, like a forklift or the rental crane posted. I bet between everyone involved a suitable lifting device and a car trailer to move it could be source for no more than the cost of a case of beer or 2.

RE: how to move a mill

zappedagain,

Engine hoists cost only a couple of hundred bucks. They lift a couple of tons. You can sell them afterwards on Craig's list. It has been observed above that rigging is not a job for amateurs. I am getting warnings about this, here. Either bring in professionals, or get trained.

--
JHG

RE: how to move a mill

Most engine hoists are 2 ton rated at the shortest reach which won't not go high enough to lift the mill from above. Extending the arm to the longest reach de-rates most engine hoists to 1/2 ton and even then the hoist will only go about 6' high which likely isn't enough to lift the mill.

RE: how to move a mill

Being a school, approach a local rigging company with the offer of free advertising on the robot if they will position, secure and level the mill to the floor.

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: how to move a mill

Guy I used to work for would call a wrecker truck with a winch on the back to unload machine tools. Don't know what it cost but he was pretty thrifty :)

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: how to move a mill

I would support the kids in coming to and implementing the solution. I would refer them to this discussion, facilitate them discussing and reviewing these and other possibilities, select and implement one or more, and within limits of safety, let them try a couple things that don't work. I wouldn't let them get away with using one of the ideas published here without first coming up with a few good ones not mentioned here.

RE: how to move a mill

Ben, thumbsup2

gbangs
TC 8.3.3
NX 8.5.3.3 MP11

RE: how to move a mill

Moon,
Definitely a good comment.
They just might surprise you!

RE: how to move a mill

Hmm I could not give Moon a star - are they on back order?

RE: how to move a mill

monkeydog; Not wanting the Pub or this forum to become popularity contests LPS are not implemented in them.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: how to move a mill

Oh, for crying out loud, just lower the CG by lowering the knee as far as it goes and flip the head over so the motor is lower. Then just have four strong guys walk it off the pallet. Once on the concrete, a crow bar and a couple of lengths of 1/2" rod and one guy can put it anywhere.
AceEngineer bigglasses

RE: how to move a mill

Kenat has the best suggestions thus far - "Crate of bear".

Bear are exceedingly strong and intelligent, and able to be trained to perform a variety of tasks and tricks.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: how to move a mill

We also expect it weighs about a ton, maybe only 1800 lbs. if we are lucky!
Four bears may be able to handle it at 450 to 500 lbs. each. Get the larger, mature bears, not the cubs.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

My forebears couldn't do it - they're all either too old or long dead - and there's three of them I wouldn't dare ask after that misunderstanding over the breakfast cereal.

RE: how to move a mill

Once upon a time there were only three bears...

RE: how to move a mill

Do the bears come 12 or 24 to a case?
I have a job coming up that could sure use a few of them....

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

RE: how to move a mill

I remember Hamm's beer. Not sure I was all that good, but their TV adverts were cute.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: how to move a mill

I hope you can get some pictures when the mill is moved.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

Zappedagain -
With all of this awesome free advise, what have you done, or plan on doing?

RE: how to move a mill

(OP)
So far it's still on the pallet until we get our bear-ings.

I expect well finish the move in Oct. design and fab starts in Jan so we'll definitely need to have it done before then.

Z

RE: how to move a mill

If you just let it sit long enough, the pallet will rot and everything'll sort itself out.

RE: how to move a mill

That suggestion reminds me of a generator and transfer switch installation I came across in the thurd world.
The transfer switch was about 48 inches high. It was delivered on a pallet.
The "Not Quite Ready For Prime Time" crew pushed the pallet against the wall and moved the transfer switch to the back of the pallet against the wall.
Then they connected the switch and went away leaving the switch still sitting on the pallet.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

waross, I saw a job in India where men moved a 10T piece of equipment. There were about 300 men, and 20 boys. The machine was up on blocks and bars for handles. They would pick it up 1", take five steps, and set it down. The boys were moving the blocks. At first it looked like they weren't getting anywhere, but after a couple of hours they had taken it down the street, into the plant, and they were putting it in place.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

RE: how to move a mill

On another job a small gen-set had to be moved. The owner sent a crew of six men. They lined up four on one side and two on the other side and lifted. They stopped lifting just short of rolling the set over on the two guys on the other side.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

RE: how to move a mill

When I read this article this morning: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/banff-house-...

I couldn't help but think of this thread also...read to the bottom of the article and you will see that they used ice to get the beams out from under the house and allow the house to settle in its new location!

RE: how to move a mill

(OP)
We had a successful move this weekend. We ended up using an engine hoist that could handle 2 tons. It needed to be stacked on top of a few timbers to get the right height and the pan had to come off the mill for clearance.

Thanks for all the advice!

Z

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