Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
(OP)
I have been approached by an individual that has designed a product for use in a plumbing system. He has asked for my professional opinion about its suitability for use and I genuinely feel that with one or two simple modifications it would work just fine. He is now seeking to bring the product to market and wishes to have a letter from me attesting to its suitability for use. This will, presumably, reassure any inspectors or plan reviewers who will have never seen this product before and prevent rejection of submittals. Other than my suggestion to make one or two small changes to the product I did not have any input on its manufacture. It is a product that can be used in virtually any building construction project, in any city, and any state. I'm only licensed in three states. The questions are:
1) is there a problem with my providing a letter that will be posted on the supplier's website, endorsing the product and attesting to its suitability for use? What is the appropriate fee for this, knowing that the product will likely sell very well and are likely to be in front of plan checkers and permitting personnel all over the country?
2) The product designer is intending to include a letter I would write with the product when is sold and shipped, and may go anywhere in the US, including states that I am not licensed in. I'm not sure about this.. is it acceptable?
3) assuming that it is an acceptable practice to endorse a manufactured product at all, how do I structure my fees?
a)the product can be made in various sizes but will essentially be the same. I don't feel that I can reasonably charge my fee for the first size multiplied by the 5 different sizes available. And what about the ones sold in each state? Do I charge another fee for every state?
This is a bit of a new facet for me. I've been in business for twenty years and have signed and sealed drawings for (mechanical) construction plans that whole time. This is different in that I would be endorsing a product's suitability for use,is new on the market, and will be sold all over the country. In the back of my head I'm thinking that the state board of engineers (California, Nevada, Oregon) will not like the idea of my using my stamp to endorse anything, citing a concern for the 'deflation' or 'devaluation' of the meaning of an engineer's seal or some similar sentiment.
Sorry so wordy, anyone have some guidance/thoughts here?
1) is there a problem with my providing a letter that will be posted on the supplier's website, endorsing the product and attesting to its suitability for use? What is the appropriate fee for this, knowing that the product will likely sell very well and are likely to be in front of plan checkers and permitting personnel all over the country?
2) The product designer is intending to include a letter I would write with the product when is sold and shipped, and may go anywhere in the US, including states that I am not licensed in. I'm not sure about this.. is it acceptable?
3) assuming that it is an acceptable practice to endorse a manufactured product at all, how do I structure my fees?
a)the product can be made in various sizes but will essentially be the same. I don't feel that I can reasonably charge my fee for the first size multiplied by the 5 different sizes available. And what about the ones sold in each state? Do I charge another fee for every state?
This is a bit of a new facet for me. I've been in business for twenty years and have signed and sealed drawings for (mechanical) construction plans that whole time. This is different in that I would be endorsing a product's suitability for use,is new on the market, and will be sold all over the country. In the back of my head I'm thinking that the state board of engineers (California, Nevada, Oregon) will not like the idea of my using my stamp to endorse anything, citing a concern for the 'deflation' or 'devaluation' of the meaning of an engineer's seal or some similar sentiment.
Sorry so wordy, anyone have some guidance/thoughts here?





RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
Any letter from you officially declaring suitability of purpose puts you in the crosshairs of the plaintiff's lawyer team when they start seeking damages. One worst-case scenario: the guy farms out manufacture of the product to a foreign sweatshop that produces junk of shoddy quality to try to get his market-entry costs down in order to compete. Would you still agree to the product's suitability of purpose then?
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
If you offer your engineering services to assist them in getting those approvals, and perhaps preparing the documentation that THEY will in turn be responsible to issue as needed, that's a very different situation.
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
"If you offer your engineering services to assist them in getting those approvals, and perhaps preparing the documentation that THEY will in turn be responsible to issue as needed, that's a very different situation."
Brian, if you are reading this I'm curious to hear you complete that thought. Certainly I would not sign manufacturing drawings as I have had zero oversight or input into the product's manufacture. And I agree that certification to industry standard (ASTM, AASHTO, etc) , again per Brian, is the way to go.
I suppose the spin on this little gem is the notion of having some kind of form letter attached with submittals, or in the box with the part when sold(as the inventor had initially suggested [not crazy about that idea]). The volume and potential chargeable fees were, at the outset, tempting. But now.. not so much. I'm curious if anyone has seen or heard mention of product endorsement by PEs either in the NCEES or State Board (of any state) literature. I personally have not seen any mention of it.
Thanks all for your contributions! cheers!
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
If/when they get sued the other lawyers will subpeona all sorts of documentation and your name will be on it as an engineer.
Engineering should not be a volume business if you're taking it seriously.
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
But in MY area (Ontario, Canada), the first place that a manufacturer should call, is CSA (Canadian Standards Association) if they want to build things that are for general sale to the public. Find out what standards apply, get those standards, and find out what's needed in order to conform to the relevant standards.
Depending on what the component is, samples may have to be submitted for testing, either by CSA themselves or some other testing or certification agency. (It will cost something ...)
But the outcome that you are looking for, in that case, is that the manufacturer will be legally permitted to apply a CSA marking to the product, and the standard may define what documentation the manufacturer has to make available so that end users can properly apply and use the product.
Then engineers like me, will hopefully research the product, see that it conforms to standards that apply, read the documentation showing how to use it, and specify and buy it.
Guiding a company through the process of getting their product certified for compliance with relevant standards, is a valid engineering exercise. And this way you don't take ongoing responsibility for the manufacturer's quality control, etc. That's THEIR responsibility.
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system
If any licensed Engineer was going to do this I think the following would be appropriate:
- The Engineer would be paid an agreed to royalty on every single piece sold as each one represents additional liability.
- The product would have to be put through a full battery of certification tests as relates to the service conditions. If no codes, or standards currently exist, it should go through sufficient testing as the Engineer writing the letter feels is necessary to be considered safe and operable.
- The product would be required to have a Quality Assurance process such that at each step of manufacture, the vendors providing their materials/service certify that it meets the specifications originally described to the Engineer writing the letter, and each batch would require a final certification process, reviewing the submitted certifications, to become certified themselves. This makes each batch more work for the certifying Engineer, another reason for the royalty on each.
- The manufacturer would limit the Engineer's liability on each part to the amount of the royalty paid through a contractual obligation, since proper testing and compliance has been done and the issues arising are through QA, installation, and operating conditions only.
Of course, I would consult with a lawyer to make sure all of these commitments hold up to totally indemnify myself (or indemnify as much as possible) if this was me. All this being said, it would likely be more beneficial, and less costly in the long run for this particular company to hire an Engineer for all that to happen.Again, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just interested in hearing others opinions on this.
RE: Endorsement of a product used in an engineered system