Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
(OP)
CBC News
The Telegraph
"[It didn't notice] the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied."
The Telegraph
"[It didn't notice] the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied."





RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
We had problems with a tracker along the same lines; no history file, no track history
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
In other words, perhaps the radar system design implicitly 'assumes' that the car is only two feet tall, and thus fails to ensure that the way ahead is of sufficient height. If that's the case, then that seems like a fairly major system design process flaw.
This tragic incident is so 'blatant' (driving straight into the side of a truck) that it will hopefully reduce the industry hype about the near term future of self-driving vehicles.
How many more blind spots do these systems have?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Some will take the position that as long as the accident rate is equal to or at least slightly better than humans, then it's all okay. "It's an improvement."
I suspect that such levels would prove to be unacceptable. For example, the concentration of liability on one doorstep might be financially impossible.
It seems that there's an implicit requirement that they be much, much safer, and that they totally avoid such systematic 'dumb' mistakes.
They've still got a lot of work to do.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This particular driver has been driving unsafely for some time and posting about it on youtube.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/30...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
But, I guess the only thing to do is go all the way and let the machines do it all.
Regards,
Mike
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
We used not to have a rule to say that vehicles over 6m (20 ft) long had to have steady amber lights at intervals down the side so you can tell (visually) when someone stops their truck across a junction ahead of you at night. We (in the UK) do now.
Imposing new rules on one class of road users to protect against other road users' perceptual deficiencies (like not being able to see in the dark) is nothing new and (with certain exceptions) tends to find acceptance eventually.
A.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
As a pilot I see that argument often that automation or information overload causes accidents or makes us worse pilots. Overall, the conclusion I've drawn (and I believe this is supported by studies) is that it's not automation nor excessive use of computers that drives these accidents; rather it's our lack of preparedness to identify and take control when things do go wrong.
In the case of this fatal car crash, this does expose a flaw in that how is a driver supposed to be able to tell when the automation isn't working? Many "famous" crashes in aviation occurred when the autopilot turned off and the pilot wasn't aware it was no longer in control and allowed the plane slowly fly itself into a crash. This is about my only concern with the systems in self-driving cars from an engineering standpoint; we need to see what the car is reacting to before or while it's reacting (or not reacting). Perhaps the driver saw the truck and expected the car to brake for him and then wasn't ready to intervene when it didn't.
In aviation we follow strict procedures to ensure the autopilot functions properly on the ground, can be overridden, and presents the proper warnings when it is disabled. In addition, it's always emphasized during training to be aware of what mode the autopilot is in and be prepared to take control at any moment.
In my educated opinion, autopilots definitely make flying a safer and more comfortable experience. While I was trained on a simple trainer aircraft I currently fly a modern cockpit aircraft with multifunction displays and a full autopilot. I will "hand fly" the vast majority of the time but when workload is high it definitely improves safety if I do not need to strictly monitor my altitude and heading while I focus on reading an approach chart or focus on preparing to land.
But, with this convenience/safety feature comes another skill that becomes the crux of the issue. You must be mentally prepared to respond to an abnormal situation. Many aviation crashes occur due to automation failing to perform as expected and pilots getting fixated on getting the automation to perform the action they want, rather than just revert to manually flying and deal with the problem when reestablished on their appropriate course. Still, the vast majority of pilots understand this and practice this skill regularly.
Of course you will have people who use this feature as a crutch. Some general aviation pilots are chided as simply "following the magenta line" (in reference to the purple colors used to indicate information provided from a GPS source) in reference to their lack of non-automated flying skills. You see this in drivers today as well; such as people who drive into lakes because their GPS told them to. Of course these people will abuse self-driving features but they will exist regardless of the technology given them. I'd rather a computer system which has software that can be updated driving towards me than a person looking down to read that important text they just got.
Overall the best example of this is to remind yourselves that we used to need two pilots and a flight engineer to safely operate an airline. Does anyone lament the loss of the flight engineer position as a safety issue? In fact, many modern charter aircraft are flown with a single pilot these days. This is only made possible with increased automation and yet flight safety continues to improve while simultaneously the cost of flights continue to decrease. While this is a little "apples and oranges" the assertion that automation = worse pilots/drivers isn't quite that black and white if you ask me.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
What happened is law enforcement increased in school zones which caused many more tickets for people not watching their speed. So people started to set their cruise control for 25 MPH so they would not have the problem of getting tickets for driving too fast.
Now most cruise controls can't be set for anything below 35 MPH, so drivers must watch their speed, and not so much the road. (Has technology improved things?)
On the same topic, I thought that trucks were required to have reflectors mid trailer so they can be seen. This is now being required on rail cars because of the number of accidents with trains.
But still the comment about the white trailer and bright sky is bothersome when a red reflector was all that should have prevented this. So my comment about not allowing white trailers.
Come to think of it, I think lights mid trailer are also required, but being daylight they likely were not on.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Or for easier computer recognition:
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Never more true than in an accident that was reported yesterday. Imagine a ship motoring through a wreck-infested patch of water on autopilot in the middle of the night when the system throws in an undemanded 30° turn towards the rocks. Should the watchkeeper:
b. Apply Astern propulsion to stop the ship in the water giving him time to think before sorting himself out?
c. Throttle back a wee bittie, then wander off to wake the skipper?
A.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
So.. what are you saying about everyone who flies in an Airbus? :)
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
A.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
It's a near-certainty that the Tesla Autopilot system captures video and stores it upon a crash. So there should be video. As well as lots of related data.
Given that the Autopilot drove straight into the side of a truck, I wonder how devastatingly embarrassing the video would be, or if it shows something that provides some rational explanation.
This is certainly 'a learning moment' for the over-hyped Self-Driving Car industry, the regulators and public.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The detectors saw the space under the trailer and deduced that there was enough space for them to pass under the trailer.
All the detectors did make it safely under the trailer. It was only the upper part of the car above the detectors that did not clear the trailer.
As for reflectors, not much use if the trailer is backlit and there is no source of illumination to reflect.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The truck failed to yield right of way. So many times I run up to an 18 wheeler who pulls out because there is enough time for cross traffic to stop or even slow down but not enough for the truck to clear the crossing, using the adage of might makes right.
Hopefully the driver of the truck was properly cited, involuntary manslaughter?
True, this particular driver pushed the Darwin button a few times before and got lucky as seen by the videos posted. This time not so lucky.
Hydrae
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I've read quite a few of the news items on this incident and I've seen nothing to indicate any such thing. The consistent story is that the Tesla failed to brake either to slow down or stop while the truck made a perfectly normal left turn across traffic (I'm interpreting this to mean: plenty of room).
This happened weeks ago. If the tucker had failed to yield, then he'd likely have been ticketed by now based on local police investigation.
It's possible I've missed something somewhere.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Except the car never realized it had even been in a wreck. It continued driving at the same speed for over three hundred yards!! It finally failed to stay on the road and went off-roading at high speed. It steered safely between two big trees and then.... absolutely pegged a power pole, stoving-in the front-end about 5 feet.
I think this points out the need for 'secondary sensors' that should be present to detect a crash and get the whole show stopped.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
If the car didn't notice the roof being sheared off, then they've got some redesign to do. Perhaps: Aircraft can have 'frangible switches' scattered around various crash-sensitive locations.
Even still, assuming the Tesla finally noticed the last pole, the circular buffer for video is likely at least several minutes, and these days could easily be hours.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
That'd be the industry that has consistently pointed out that Tesla's autopilot is not a level 4 autonomous car. so a fairly uninformed comment at best.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Steve
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The complete quote also included "...the regulators and public."
"This is certainly 'a learning moment' for the over-hyped Self-Driving Car industry, the regulators and public."
The sentence should be parsed as follows:
1) The Self-Driving Car industry is over-hyped.
2) This is 'a learning moment' for industry*, regulators, public.
(* 'Industry' includes Tesla, but others may learn as well.)
Both of these points are defensible. This tragic incident provides clear evidence on both points.
I wasn't intending to blame all members of the industry for the over-hype, if that was your concern. ...and apologies if I've misinterpreted your concern.
The 'technology press' is likely the main contributor to the over-hype. But some in industry seem to use hype as a marketing tool.
None of these groups are monolithic. Some parts of industry may be responsible and cautious, while others in industry are literally running 'beta' tests on public highways; even while some members of the public may have too much misplaced faith in the over-hyped and still-immature technology.
Apologies that the quoted sentence caused concerns. Parsed correctly and understanding who is 'industry', I think that it's defensible.
PS: Forum posts by their nature are compact, and subtle meaning and intent can be lost. It requires far too much time to craft posts that cannot be misinterpreted.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Look at the Washington post link in Bimr's post. It has the crash report.
The intersection is uncontrolled meaning no lights therefor those turning left yield right of way to oncoming traffic. But does have to yield to cross traffic which has a stop sign.
You can also look at the intersection on google earth 29°24'38.71" 82°32'22.44".
Hydrae
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This intersection looks as flat as can be with nothing that would have obstructed visibility between the two vehicles.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The Washington Post has a map (which I've seen before) extracted from a report. But I don't see any crash report, or even any link to a crash report.
This happened weeks ago. If the tucker had failed to yield, then he'd likely have been ticketed by now. There's no mention anywhere that I've seen of the trucker being ticketed. Therefore it seems likely that there was adequate room.
If the truck had suddenly pulled into the Tesla's path, and the Tesla then applied full brakes, then that would be a different story. That's not what happened here.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I'm with a few others here. Tesla was beta testing their system on the public and it caused someone to die.
I also agree with the comments about people not being capable of suddenly taking over the controls when they're not really paying attention. Even airplane pilots who have trained for that situation have issues when this occurs.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://documents.latimes.com/tesla-accident-report...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
gotta love having GPS coordinates in the traffic crash report, although, someone's GPS is WAY OFF, like about 200 ft, but good enough.
TTFN
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
If the Tesla was in fact speeding, the "failure to yield" call against the truck driver should go away . . .
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The movie was apparently playing on a portable DVD player - not on the vehicle's own screen. The vehicle itself is not capable of playing movies on its own screen while driving, but there's nothing it can do to stop people from using separate equipment to do so.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technolog...
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
MacGyver - I'm guessing that all bets were off as far as autopilot being able to do anything right from the moment of the first "failure to avoid".
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The above is also likely why it drove under the truck. The radar unit in the grill is looking ahead, not up, hence it didn't think anything was in it's path. Not ensuring the road is clear for the whole car is a rather large deficiency in the system.
There is also this incident where it appears the "Summons" feature was accidentally activated and the car drove under a trailer.
http://jalopnik.com/man-claims-his-tesla-model-s-c...
And the new rollover incident on the Pennsylvania Turnpike Friday being reported.
I see no mention of this portable DVD player in the accident report, and you'd think that would be a rather important detail to note.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The Tesla Model S is only 56.5" high according to google while a typical semi-trailer is 52 inches. Thus, if it missed the wheels it could easily pass under while smashing the roof down but still keep much of it's speed.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Apparently the trailer in question did not have the side-skirts that are being pitched for fuel economy reasons, that would have presumably registered with the autopilot and that it would have then taken whatever actions were appropriate. Can Tesla's autopilot execute a high speed lane change maneuver and back again at an autocross level of intensity?
Never mind that the failure to see an obstruction 52" above the pavement when the Tesla itself is taller than that is really troubling. Even if you're willing to sacrifice the roof and optimistically assume that it would get cleanly sheared off, the top of any occupants' heads is likely to be at or slightly higher than 52" as well.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I don't know about this extreme of a maneuver but the driver in the fatal accident previously posted a video of his Tesla taking an abrupt maneuver onto the shoulder to avoid a truck that tried to occupy the same space as the Tesla. However, I believe the safest action to being cutoff will always be to brake straight ahead.
Agreed that missing an obstruction below the roof of the car seems like something that shouldn't happen.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I only saw a statement saying the sensor was unable to differentiate the white truck from the bright clear sky behind it. This would seem to insinuate the problem is not one of geometry but of optical analysis.
Have I missed something else?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The impression (my own, not cited) is that the visual camera didn't distinguish the trailer due to the bright sky/light while the radar incorrectly categorized it as an overhead sign (possibly because the camera was not recognizing the truck's trailer).
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Personally, I think the biggest fault is in the user's decision of bestowing control to a system not deserving of complete control. It's never been advertised as being able to replace driver attention, and you have to hit an 'ok' button (or similar) every time you turn on the auto-pilot feature, agreeing that you, as the driver, understand you have to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, etc etc.
However, it's also called AUTO PILOT which, in common parlance, basically means you can relinquish control and let the machine take over. (see below) I think the name is a bit unfortunate, but I don't know how much responsibility that puts on Tesla for any 'deception'. Obviously we're all accustomed to just hitting 'ok' without reading EULA-like text on a screen, so the effectiveness of those dialog windows only exists in a courtroom.
It's unfortunate. I don't put any blame on Tesla, personally. They never advertised their system as being a foolproof object avoidance guarantee - just that it's an augmented system designed to assist a driver in their normal driving habits. I think people have trouble discerning the current state of technology from the very public discussions from Tesla on what they /want/ it to eventually be. I am guessing early adopters may be more prone to conflating car capabilities as they are most likely very eager to see the new technology and may have their rose tinted glasses on at times.
Or maybe it was simply a mistake that will be common to the laziness of apathy that all drivers are capable of.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
FWIW, Autopilot should be better at mixing the two because it isn't limited by such subjectives as panic or unfamiliarity with what the car is capable of doing and how to make that happen.
I've watched that video where the Tesla avoided getting hit, but getting around the much bigger truck would have required something more extreme at least in lateral travel if not necessarily in lateral and yaw accelerations.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Very good point, this was the primary reason my normal response while diving would be to brake straight ahead but you would expect (hope?) that an autopilot could have a more proactive response without worsening the situation.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
A similar issue: You're driving down a freeway at speed in the middle lane, and for some reason, traffic is backed up and stopped in the right lane. Your lane is perfectly clear. What do you do? Well, past experience shows that somebody in that right lane is going to pull in front of you, and if you wait until it happens to do anything, you have problems.
In this case, a major part of avoiding that wreck would have been realizing what was going on when that truck started moving. Not seeing it when it was right in front of the car is bad enough. Not seeing it move into that position at a typical snaily truck pace is worse.
It'll be interesting to see what this costs Tesla.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
If it's a system design failure, then the nicest thing we can say is that they're not done yet. It would be preferable if it were a simple hardware failure, as opposed to such a blatant system design failure. TBD what really caused this failure.
I half-expect that the US DoT will request that Tesla remotely disable the Autopilot feature on the entire fleet until it's finished, tested and properly certified. If this requires major hardware modifications, then it opens a new can of worms.
Very old advice: "A.I. is hard." (<- Many ships have crashed upon those rocks, so to speak.)
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Probably something that Tesla engineers can pull out of a log file, but is there also a diagnostic that the driver can access? Or a warning?
STF
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Legal disclaimers aside, there's an implied capability of driving down the road without crashing into the sides of trucks that happen to be painted white. One can argue if this was an 'implied capability', or a naïve assumption. In any case, it's a blatant system failure of something. I'm sure that Tesla is looking into it...
There's been a huge amount of hype about 'self-driving cars', in the context of "A.I.". These sorts of failures are quite revealing. It all goes back to "A.I. is hard."
It's not very interesting (in terms of technology) to get into the legal disclaimers, or if the trucker failed to yield. The system failure (it not braking) is the main point. It's relevant to the hype, the actual state of development, the fitness for purpose, and how many years into the future until they'll be ready for widespread deployment on public roads.
I acknowledge that others may have differing opinions. Which is fine.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Reading about the system further, it uses the windshield mounted camera as an "eye" to classify objects, lane markers, signs etc. Lots of image gathering and learning has been done so the fancy processing can figure out what it's actually looking at. It classifies what the objects are so the system can know what these objects might do or what type of hazard they present. The camera is the primary system used to detect objects and plan the driving path. The detection system comes from Mobileye with Tesla apparently doing their own self-learning algorithms. The system also has a forward facing radar unit in the grill. To me, that says the radar unit, as a minimum, is a backup sensor used to ensure physical objects in front of the car are properly detected so the car doesn't drive into them.
So, sure the camera didn't realize it was a trailer and possibly classified it as an overhead sign by mistake. But, the radar unit also failed to tell the system there was a blockage the (whole) car could not drive past and the white of the trailer has no relevance to how it operates. If the radar unit didn't pick out the object then that also tells me it's not looking high enough to ensure objects aren't in the was of the roof of the car.
The system detecting objects probably 30-40' apart on each side of it's intended path and deciding it was OK to drive between them at full speed also seems to be a logic failure. With objects limiting the space for the car to pass, at some point it should decide the path is clear but has a lower level of "safeness" so proceed with an appropriately elevated level of caution.
I agree, "A.I. is hard."
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I wouldn't say I disagree with this but I would say there are exceptions. Statistically (not enough data I know, but for arguments sake let's say there is) it appears that the Tesla autopilot results in fewer accidents when used properly, according to Tesla. To me this is not very different from the FEMA and SAC joint venture response to the Northridge Earthquake. They were effectively implementing steel seismic designs that were still in a "beta" testing phase. However, they showed that a flaw existed in current designs and their fix was determined to result in improved performance even while still in a "beta" testing phase.
I don't fault Tesla for offering this "beta" testing feature as long as it was demonstrated prior to offering it that it was able to statistically improve safety. If they did offer it without qualifying it's safety and just lucked out that it was safer than the average driver, then I entirely agree that it was a dumb thing to do.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
But statistical grounds are still not enough to take it out of the realm of "personally risky" to each owner, given that a near-infinite range of possibilities exist that you'd be trying to use a finite and ultimately small sample size to predict the breadth of.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The Tesla must only be driven on those types of highways because it doesn't know how to resolve traffic control devices, bicycles, pedestrians, or (as brutally evident) cross-traffic. Regardless of what it thought the big white trailer was, its computer managed to thread a pretty narrow window to kill the driver. It had to have seen the tractor, trailer wheels, and landing gear pull in front of it, and the rear of the trailer entering the intersection after it and thought, "hey, I have one second to shoot this 25' gap that is going to open up in front of me under this road sign that just appeared." I read it somewhere, that the manufacturer of the sensor suite says that it just doesn't do cross-traffic. At this point, it's a novelty.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Please remember: we're not all guys!
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.teslarati.com/witnesses-details-deadly-...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This sort of implies that the driver has to keep track of and remember all the caveats. Seems to me that the program ought to have its own check, "Road center marking not detected, disengaging in 5 seconds unless center markings are re-acquired."
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
From http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-crash-monta...
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This would actually be similar to many aviation autopilots which have certain limits where the autopilot is not intended to be used; usually minimum airspeed and cross-wind, but often various others. Obviously there is a higher level of proficiency and responsibility associated with getting a pilots license than a drivers license, so it may be a little too much apples and oranges. Still, I think as long as the limitations are made crystal clear in the documentation and are reasonable then I think we can have a few things in this world that are not 100% idiot proof. But I agree that, if practical, the more checks where the autopilots can warn when you've left the defined limits, the better.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I like it! Heck, they have BIG displays, put up a rules quiz that changes each time. The first question is, "will you be using the auto-drive today"? If they answer NO the quiz ends. If they answer YES then a question or two that have to actually be read to answer correctly.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The more serious the potential consequences resulting from error, the closer any thing needs to be to 100% idiot proof. As fast as circumstances can change, expecting a mostly inattentive driver to recognize that a warning was issued and take the correct actions - all within the time between when the AP issued its warning and the point of no return - may not be realistic.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Reminds me of the tired of engineer/manager joke:
Note, I'm not saying they don't need to improve, or should stop trying to improve. I just don't /fault/ them for a driver /negligently/ driving 'hands free' with a feature that tells you in no uncertain terms that it isn't for 'hands free' use.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Failure to be more pro-active in keeping hands free driving from happening is a different story, as 'hands free' driving if only for personal experimentation is clearly a predictable occurrence. Especially since Tesla freely discloses that AP is still in beta.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
A not very smart person bought a motor home.
He headed out on the freeway.
He engaged cruise control, and then left the drivers seat to make himself a cup of coffee in the galley....
For years I thought that it was just a silly joke.
Now I wonder.
The height of irony would be if the Tesla delivering the Darwin Award impacted a truck while on auto-pilot.
I wonder if it would be better to send the Darwin Award by drone?
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Why would the AP even engage if the road is questionable?
Why would the AP not disengage if the road was good but turned questionable?
Why isn't there some detection method to ensure the drivers hands are still on the wheel since, according to Telsa, the drivers hands need to be on the wheel?
With these incidents occurring and the more I read about the system, the more convinced I am that Tesla is attempting to use the camera only because they believe that a camera based system is the future. However, it would appear the so-called AI system behind the camera needs to get A LOT smarter and do A LOT more learning about what it's seeing before it's ready. But, I'm not fully convinced a camera system can actually be ready. As a really basic description, the system relies on pattern or shape recognition, but there is an almost infinite number of patterns or shapes possible out on the road. So, a system that takes some new pattern or shape and tries to "best fit" it to the patterns or shapes it has in it's learned history will make identification mistakes.
The worst part is that when wrong, you get a hazard misidentified as something benign which results in the system driving on oblivious to the fact there even is a hazard. No warnings occur and the driver needs to catch the system acting up in time or the car crashes full speed into the hazard.
The other situation is misidentifying a benign object and taking evasive action not expected by drivers around the car resulting in a crash due to other drivers not expecting a car to be suddenly braking or swerving.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Should every car maker pro-actively keep people from driving while under the influence of drugs? I mean obviously that's a predictable occurrence. I think the onus you suggest putting on them is unreasonable when compared to current practice/norms.
@LionelHutz
I could see it being beneficial to engage the AP in questionable conditions as it has many other features besides object avoidance or lane-following. After all, it's meant to /assist/ the driver, not replace interaction of the driver.
I'm betting a sensor to ensure there are is a hand / are hands on the wheel would be pretty easy to defeat, and like I mentioned in my response to NormPeterson, I think it's unreasonable to require them to go so much further than every other common car on the market.
As to the frequency of negatives vs positives in computer assisted driving, the decision is a pretty big one to weigh. Obviously proponents have been touting statistics of these intelligent cars being x% safer than general drivers. I remain thoroughly unconvinced, personally, because I don't think we've had a good analysis of the data and I've never seen mention of how they interpret the data. I doubt the current Tesla driver is a typical representation of all drivers in general. It could be that Tesla drivers, as they are right now, are a safer-driving demographic to begin with.
One thing I do find difficult is equating a computer mistake with a human mistake. If a human causes an accident, I mostly think "c'est la vie" and move on. When machines/computers/software make mistakes with similar results, I find myself angrier or more frustrated with it. It's less acceptable for machines to foul up, in my mind, I suppose. That's one reason I tend not to care for increased automation or reliance on machine systems in my personal life. I very much prefer to screw things up directly, rather than have a machine screw it up for me :)
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I think the main issue is still with the name "AutoPilot," which connotes way more than it really is. Thus, expectation and reality are not aligned, and that is clearly the fault of Tesla.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Engaging the AP is self-defeating if the road conditions make the AP incapable of automatically piloting the car. If you wanted assistance driving then the system could provide visual clues to the hazards or nudges in the right direction or assisted braking. But to allow a driver to engage a system that is supposed to completely take over driving when it's incapable of safely taking over the driving duties is rather dumb.
Of course, the AP has the same problem deciding if it's capable of driving as it does not recognizing hazards. Basically, it's still too "dumb" to know it can't safely drive the car in the present conditions.
Sorry, but providing a safety feature even though it can be defeated isn't the same as deciding to not bother with a safety feature because it could be defeated. And not bothering is based on comparing to other self driving cars that are common in the marketplace now?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
1) The system is not supposed to completely take over driving.
2) Yes, it would be stupid to let "Jesus take the wheel" and engage a feature that can't operate in poor conditions and expect it to work flawlessly and beyond all advertised capabilities. It's also stupid to turn off your headlights on a rural country road at night while driving 60mph but there's no interlock to prevent it.
There ain't no power in the 'verse that can keep people from making dumb (or to put it politely: uninformed) decisions, and in the end, you are the driver and still responsible for the vehicle. Yes, one day we will hopefully have automatic conveyance but it is not today, nor tomorrow, next year. It's unreasonable to expect more than that.
I heavily agree with IRStuff "I think the main issue is still with the name "AutoPilot," which connotes way more than it really is. Thus, expectation and reality are not aligned, and that is clearly the fault of Tesla." Marketing screws the pooch again, imo.
EDIT: Fixed errant 'spoiler tag'
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Say what? The system drives the car all on it's own. The system doesn't rely on the human driver to provide any gas pedal, brake pedal or steering input to drive the car down the road avoiding obstacles and staying in it's lane. It completely takes over the driving duties with the human driver of the car ONLY monitoring it by being prepared to take control back.
I thought found this rather comical in how useless it would be. You could be dead long before that 5 seconds expires if the car can't figure out where the lane is.
I can not turn off the headlights when driving at night on the 2011 vehicle I drove to work today.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
On interlocks . . . when a logical system has the potential for doing something incredibly wrong, while still thinking that it's doing everything exactly right and better than a human driver could, you need some means of determining that the human is paying at least a modicum of attention to the road ahead. Maybe more than one method, so that there's some redundancy.
A human driver choosing to drive at speed down a country road at night without headlights . . . serious questions exist whether he should be driving at all. It's not something he'd be unaware of, like he would a logical oversight or mis-step in some programming.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
That was not intended for an autonomous system, but for a driver's aid, which has radically different constraints.
"A human driver choosing to drive at speed down a country road at night without headlights"
There are certainly lots of drivers driving without lights in the city; making them massively hazardous to other drivers.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Ontario driver charged after using headlamp instead of headlights: police
They are out there.
The problem with aircraft autopilots is that the pilot stays in the seat and pays attention. If the pilot engaged the autopilot and then headed back to the passenger area to see if he could score a stewardess, then dis-engagement of the autopilot would be very much more dangerous.
--
JHG
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
But another question: How does a Tesla handle school zones?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
An "autopilot" equipped vehicle that decides it doesn't want to drive any further but which doesn't get a response from its human driver when it requests the human to take over control ... should do what? Stop in the middle of a live traffic lane so that traffic coming from behind can plow into it? (illegal to stop in a live traffic lane in many places - and rightly so) Pull over to the side of the road (what if there's no breakdown lane)?
Circumstances that an "autopilot" can not deal with don't necessarily come with many seconds or minutes of warning before they happen.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Far too many cars have a 'User Interface' design / regulatory flaw in that the unwary will be driving on a dark and stormy night, with their DRLs dimly illuminating their forward path, but the rear of their car blacked out like WWII London.
The better designed cars simply refuse to allow this condition. Irrespective of the minimum regulations or headlight control settings, the rear of the car is illuminated when appropriate.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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Irvine, CA
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
That is my pet driver peeve at the moment. These poor idiots drive around thinking their "lights" are on and the back is dark. You can flash them, yell at them that their tail lights are off, and nothing works because their dim little minds see some head light.
I stopped next to a car and tried to explain it to two guys and they never got it.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The internationally-accepted hand gesture sequence is to first represent the two ends of their vehicle, by holding up two fingers in a repeated upward thrusting movement; followed by an indication that only one end of their vehicle is actually illuminated, by waving the same hand with just one finger extended.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
My lovely wife doesn't read _any_ of the owner manuals for _anything_.
Instead, she demands that I explain the operation of the whatever it is, even if I have never operated it, even if I have never seen it, while she is operating it, and has already forced it into undocumented modes of operation that no one understands or can reproduce.
I have become her PDA and her IT guy, and have failed to meet her expectations, yet again.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
To share a random eBay pic, here's a similar switch, below. There are three settings. Auto, off, on.
I wasn't aware that there were vehicles where it was simply IMPOSSIBLE to turn off headlights when it was dark. That seems really crappy, to me. There are times I want the truck turned on, but don't want the lights on, yet. I always thought it polite to turn off the lights when pulling into a parking spot if your lights were going to be shining through a window into someone's face, or if you're wanting to NOT blind people as you pull up toward them in a parking lot or other off-road place.
No wonder some people are being acclimated to the idea that their cars should be responsible for them, instead of the other way around!
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Hence my surprise that some vehicles don't allow it /at all/. I wonder how hard it is to 'fix' that, if my next vehicle comes that way. Not enough to sway the purchasing decision, but it would annoy me.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Consumer Reports calls on Tesla to disable Autopilot function
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/consumer-reports-...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/07/12/busi...
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Until an active cruise/autopilot/autonomous car is better than a human, yes, it should require the driver to still be engaged with the system. It is an assist for a driver (like passive cruise control), not a replacement. I'm all for hand/eye monitoring/tracking to keep the systems engaged.
And yes, if the system detects the driver has disengaged, it should pull to the shoulder, stop, and put the hazards on. And absent a safe pull off area, it should proceed to the next available safe location. If it's good enough to drive the car without hands on the wheel, it should be good enough to accomplish these things. And if it's not good enough for that, just have it disengage as well and roll out of the gas.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
My 01 Sierra has a similar switch. There is no off position. In Canada, the positions are Automatic, ParkLights, and Headlights on Override.
In my cars with LED indicators, the illumination level of the LEDs drops when the headlights automatically turn on.
If I am unsure whether the headlights are on, I flick the dimmer switch. Daytime running lights do not have a high beam indicator.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Also I don't believe the drivers tests ask if people can identify hand signs like from a bike rider might offer.
Also as far as self driving cars, be aware that it is possible for a car to slow down without using the brakes. I have shown that to many tailgaters, as they believe my brake lights will warn them (But I only do this when taping down the cruse control does not annoy them enough).
Brian I believe you misunderstood my reference to the railroads dead man detection system, not to the PTC they are now installing.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Certainly, the bikers I've seen recently haven't learned or have forgotten the correct hand sign for a left turn maneuver. They're all doing this sort of left, downward wave thing, which is usually done concurrently with the merge into the carpool lane from the carpool lane boundary. It's basically a BS thing to prevent the CHP for citing them for incorrect lane change, even though they're already violating the between-car threading rules.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
It is. But I believe the rules are they must not exceed 5MPH faster than the cars they're passing.
Two weeks ago in Oakland I watched in fascination as a guy on a Harley swerved thru multiple lanes going around cars, constantly changing which lanes he was splitting at about 35MPH, while we were stuck at about 2MPH. I'm sure he's probably dead now.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Steve
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
HA! I'm in California.. Hand
jestersgesture from cars are only used to suspend gunfire for reloading.Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Not sure if AP would have seen the tape any better than the reflectors or the huge box that they'd both be attached to . . .
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I explained to him that "looking for other cars" (a common algorithm) might lead him to fail to notice bicycles, motorcycles, pedestrians or an escaped hippopotamus.
"Looking for empty road" is the more general (i.e. not dangerously incorrect) solution.
It also correctly covers off the situation where you can't see the empty road because of the six-foot tall snow bank that blocks the view.
I wonder what driving algorithm concept Tesla used?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/mobileye-shares-p...
While I've never had any 'professional' contact with any 'Tesla' people, I have visited 'Space-X' several times as part of my former job (now retired) and knew several people who work there. One of the things that I learned about Elan Musk, not directly but from talking to 'Space-X' people, is that he's always willing to do it himself. That is, when he has a problem with a supplier, he's just as likely to bring the work 'in-house' then to go and find another company to do business with. He's apparently done this several times with respect to critical components for his Falcon rockets, particularly engine and fuel system parts, at least that's the impression that I've gotten. Perhaps this is something similar taking place.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot-...
http://www.recode.net/2016/7/26/12285930/tesla-mob...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Clearly an industry in desperate need of some adult supervision.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tesla-drives-m...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
At the least, he should have dialed 911 and kept them apprised of his location and intent to proceed to the hospital so that emergency services were there as a backup, or to keep him from careening out of control in the event of a car control failure.
Glad it worked out for him, though. That's a nice story.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
CODE
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
But that's not how it works.
The BBC podcast series (that I linked to in another thread) gave the example of EMS Helicopters, which helps 400,000 cases a year (USA, if I recall correctly) and undoubtedly saved thousands of lives per year. But when crashes of EMS Helicopters killed a couple dozen in one year, the NTSB still began a program of corrective action.
It's not good enough that the balance sheet is in your favour. The values we silently apply are not symmetrical.
The asymmetry even shows up financially. e.g. The EMS Helicopter performs a mission that saves a life, and they invoice somebody for, say, $2000. A job well done. But they mess up and crash, killing somebody, they might be liable for several million dollars. The asymmetry is at least 1000:1.
Another example is the huge Takata airbag recall. Those airbags have undoubtedly saved tens of thousands of lives in their expected operation. But some much smaller number (dozens?) have allegedly been killed by fragments, so massive recall underway.
There are endless similar examples.
One won't get very far arguing about 'greater good' and balance sheets. The regulators and authorities enforcing our value system generally won't allow it.
There might be the occasional historical exception that's been grandfathered in by default.
All this philosophy probably aligns with the 'First, do no harm' mantra.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
But I totally get your valid point.
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
News: "...total 750 EHS LifeFlight missions last year. Nova Scotia currently spends $3.6 million per year for EHS LifeFlight helicopter service." Pretty good value. It was in the news because they're tightening up the airworthiness rules, and a certain old helicopter is no longer permitted to land on the hospital roofs. Costs will be rising.
So our local system is about Cdn $4,800 per mission, on average. I'm not sure if that's a full accounting. As far as I know, the patient only pays a relatively small fee.
YMMV. US pricing on anything medical is notorious. EMS helicopter service, or a $750 box of tissue at the bedside.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Considering that your average medivac heli is going to cost somewhere in the realm of $1300-$1600 per hour to operate, I'd say that $4,800 per mission is a reasonably fair estimate of what the owner actually spends.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
(I live in Canada, and am counting my lucky stars based on this conversation...)
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/10/tesla-autopilot...
If this system has any collision avoidance logic, it stinks.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Your average medivac chopper is something in the mid-size range, like a Bell 222 or Augusta A-109.
The Bell 206 is also very common.
Helis in that range, you're looking at $900-$1000 per hour, wet, conservatively. Tack on another $100-$150 per hour for a high-hours pilot, plus anywhere from $100 an hour to $400 an hour for the medical crew (paramedic/paramedic on the low end, nurse/physician crew on the high end).
I'd guess the average mission is in the 2-3 hour range, which leaves a little, but not exorbitant, profit for the operator. Certainly nothing like charging $100,000 for a service that requires $4,000 of outlay.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I was referencing VE1BLL's quote that the average mission for Canada is a $4800 expense. Pretty much right on target.
Cheaper than you'd think as a per-hour cost. Remember that a medivac operator is operating thousands of hours per year.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
$4500 for a 3-hour mission vs. $40,000 bills. Again, I'm glad I'm in Canada...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports...
Can't see it there, but I remember long long ago, my employer had a track hoe that was parked well off the road out by the fenceline for the night. A driver (maybe drunk driver, I forget) ran off the road and into that trackhoe. Report from the scene said there was still hair and blood on the counterweight of that trackhoe when the crew got there the following morning.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
It's ridiculous that a system deemed usable by the general public can't avoid a disabled car that was in it's path.
Both these point out the fundamental flaw of expecting a "learning" system that makes a best guess based on it's database of objects to work reliably all the time. Tesla though they were close enough yet the system still didn't detect the side of a truck trailer and a car partially in the lane correctly, which are rather simple cases compared to what else is out there.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I keep seeing these conditions placed on the "auto-pilot" system for "proper" use... but those conditions keep taking us right back to having no auto-pilot system at all. Collision avoidance system, maybe? Okay, then call it that and don't try to control the car 100% of the time, only that 0.00001% of the time when a problem arises. Of course, that raises a completely different set of concerns... what happens when the car suddenly tries to arrest away control from the driver and the driver knows best?
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The bottom line that these accidents reveal is that we are still a ways from a true auto-pilot system. The DARPA Grand Challenge required way more sensors than any of these cars have, and you really need a suite of sensors to cover all the possible and probable contingencies, since no single sensor can do all the jobs all the time.
What might really be an issue in the future is what happens if EVERY car is equipped with radars, sonars, and ladars; avoidance of interference from other cars' emissions will be an interesting problem to solve. Just imagine if you're surrounded by cars pinging you and each other while your poor sensors are doing the same and trying to sort out all the resultant clutter.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
As far as I know, that's an official Tesla marketing photo.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Microphones to hear the emergency vehicle sirens, or (ultimately) the terrified passengers screaming.
Smoke detectors, to wake up the dozing passengers, in case the car catches fire.
They're already starting to realize that Tesla Autopilot, retroactively renamed Autopilot 1.0, needs additional hardware.
http://bgr.com/2016/08/18/tesla-autopilot-2-0-feat...
Next, they'll sadly discover that the CPU isn't powerful enough.
When they finally get a system that's actually acceptable, the ratio of the solution complexity (acceptable/initial) will be a moderately large number. Like dozens-to-one.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Also I can see if you are trying to pull over, because you are being pulled over, that the car takes off leading you involved in a high speed chase away from the police.
Actually a CO2 detector in a car is a good idea.
And the statement "since no single sensor can do all the jobs all the time" sort of implies that no human can do the job.
But if a self driving car is ever perfect, then we won't need seat belts, air bags, and car crumple zones.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
as was the case with the Grand Challenge competitors.
" sort of implies that no human can do the job."
and it can't [no lights, rain, fog, sleet], but it's way better than most sensors because the brain makes up for missing data by making up or inferring data. There's no way that a human driver would have not noticed that truck. The biggest issue with the human isn't the sensing, per se, it's the boredom and alertness. Computers don't get bored or lose alertness, yet.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
On a highway like that, that would be the lane that I would consistently drive in.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I would assume the Tesla would follow the speed limit (which would be a plus if every car did that).
So when is the driving theory of the computer going to be hacked so people can go a little faster? Sort of like changing the chip on your car to make it accelerate faster (who cares what it was intended for).
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
What about speed limits?
If self-driving cars are going to be 'perfect', then they can drive as fast as they like.
Right?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I doubt you'll find it in any driver training manual, but one lane over makes it easier for traffic merging onto the highway - this usually being on the right - to do so without requiring
either that traffic or you to do anything special to accommodate each other. The less you have to do, the easier it is on the people following to not have to do anything special to fit what
you did. Basically it avoids having both the merging driver and the driver already on the highway trying to force a "me first/you're going to wait" mentality on the other, or both doing an
"after you, Alphonse" dance to the disadvantage of everybody in the vicinity.
The effects of highway crown are usually greater in the extreme right and extreme left lanes. That's where the puddles will be deeper when it rains, and these will be the lanes that sacrifice
some width to snow clearing operations.
On a long highway stretch with no interchanges and little or no traffic you might as well drive in the right lane, subject to any consequences of the weather.
Norm
(edited to eliminate having to scroll horizontally)
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I notice that people from California tend to ignore the yield signs when coming into traffic, and often they find they run out of acceleration lane.
Not that I dislike people from California, it's just the largest state driving difference that I see very much of.
And what about construction zones, where the speed limit changes, but not on fixed basis?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
They must really hate me because I slow down for tailgaters.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
If you live where you can't leave any gap, move!
Then, perhaps not quite so correctly, you can subtly oscillate your speed up and down by an imperceptible one or two mph (or kmh), with a repetition rate matching their tailgating response time - but carefully out of phase. They'll oscillate increasingly wildly and give up and go around. If you're subtle enough (e.g. do not look in mirror, use peripheral vision only), they won't even know what happened. An important detail in gun-toting states.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I try to be as little interference to other road users as possible, while bending the law as little as possible to safely do so. E.g., I will accelerate above my cruising speed in order to complete a passing manoeuver in the left lane more quickly, in order to make way for faster traffic behind me, if any.
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
After that, I like VE1BLL's suggestion
Rule of thumb: Hemi has this right as well; present as little interference to other road users as possible. If someone else wants to drive faster than you do, get out of their way (as long as it is safe to do so). If someone wants to tailgate, let them tailgate somebody else.
Will self-driving logic address this ... ? ? ?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
My normal commute includes a two lane road with passing lanes every few miles, then it turns into a divided 4 lane with several ill timed stop lights, and a speed change or two.
Seem to find tailgaters on the two lane part. And although parts allow passing, there is usually too much traffic.
At times several road kill deer can be seen along the road, though I rarely see a car or truck nearby (perhaps people keep driving).
Amazing that people seem to miss the signs that say "Keep right except to pass". So I would ask if the self driving cars or trucks can understand the signs any better? Or is it like the GPS that never gets updated.
What subroutine allows it to avoid road damage, or blown tire parts?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
White Tesla cars.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
>> not surprising at all; the right lanes are slower, so why get stuck in them?
So I would ask if the self driving cars or trucks can understand the signs any better?
>> All that stuff has been digitized; which is why almost all the nav systems show speed limits, one-way, and number of turn lanes, etc.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
The ABS system on the vehicles I have owned have performed like complete and utter crap when on certain snow covered roads. I have to drive according to how piss-poorly the system works instead of driving according to the road conditions because the system takes away almost all the braking force. It can easily add 3 or 4 car lengths to the stopping distance in cases where I'm only going speeds in the 25-30mph range. And this includes it disengaging at 15mph when I begin to apply real braking force that actually stops the car.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I Just pulled the fuse for the ABS
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
who's paying attention can do better. A road contour that suddenly angles down and unloads the tires enough is another example. Like in the
washboard road situation, the problem seems to be that ABS systems generally can't tell the difference between a tire that's sliding because
increasing brake torque has overpowered a reasonably constant amount of contact patch grip or if the amount of contact patch grip itself has
suddenly decreased.
Brian - too much rear brake (or a combination of wheel brake + engine compression braking) in a low-grip situation can be a risky proposition
if, for example, you're going downhill at the time.
In my own experience, ABS has been most useful in preventing expensive tires from getting flatspotted under unusual conditions at a
certain motorsports activity.
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Usually these situations aren't happening at 120 km/h anyhow; usually it's more like 20 km/h and the feeling of slowly but inexorably approaching and passing the stop sign while the ABS refuses to allow any braking at all even though a locked wheel at that speed isn't much of a stability issue. Also if this is happening while I'm approaching the back of another vehicle, I really don't care about stability at that point. I just want it to STOP. Doesn't matter if it's frontwards or sideways or backwards, I just don't want to slide into the other car!
And Mr Baker, I suspect by your published location in your signature that you wouldn't have a few months of this to deal with every year
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Will self-driving be able to do this??
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Used normally, it's the usual 30 Hz ABS chatter. But press the brake pedal just a bit firmer, and one may (by choice) lock up the wheels. I presume only under specific conditions, such as slow speeds.
This slow speed ABS override feature can be very useful in certain conditions. Studded winter tires sometimes need a few seconds to scrub through the raft of snow to reach the ice, where they can provide some braking. Then one releases the brakes enough to regain steering, before going off the edge of the road. Repeat for length of hill. Kinda like manual ABS, but the physics of snow on ice with studded tires needs a cycle time of about four or five seconds to penetrate the snow rafting under the tires, not the usual 30 Hz ABS.
Mercedes. They do seem to know what they're doing.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Maybe that will increase the number of jobs for roadside assistance. Which from my viewpoint needs to be improved.
And maybe it will bring back full service filling stations. (clean that lens sir and/or mam).
How do self driving cars handle tire blowouts?
Good point about snow tires, although I don't use studded snow tires myself. The all season tires just don't preform as well as snow tires.
Maybe there needs to be automotive drivers training on things like tires, breaking, how to fix many common problems, like flat tire. Maybe also to not take fast curves with large things in the back of your truck.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
If you're referring to driving in the rain, then yes, we're only confronted with that situation a few months out of each year.
But that being said, it's amazing how it seems that when that first rainfall of the season hits, that collectively, nearly everyone in Southern California has totally forgotten how to drive, period. The most accidents, many of them albeit minor, seem to occur on those first few days of rain after a long period of rain-free weather. Granted, some of this can be attributed (and always is by the local media) to the fact then many of the roads get a covering of oil that doesn't mean much when the rods are dry but can become a real problem when the first rain starts to fall.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Subtract quite a few degrees C.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I've seen quite a few trucks (and more often buses) now with autochains installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPd3O5_SJEs
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Local deliveries would not make as much since as the long haul where there is a shortage of drivers. And the long haul is where the changing weather, and road conditions, weigh stations, fuel stops, and self reliance are required. Granted over 50% of long haul is by rail, much of it is not.
In fact UPS does put trucks on rail from CA to NY. But there are still routes between cities that don't have direct rail service (Kansas city to Denver comes to mind).
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
we wish
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/24/google_sel...
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I have verified this by experiment. Coming up to the corner stop sign at at the same speed and distance from the stop sign, apply the most braking that I can without triggering the ABS one time and letting the ABS buzz away the next time. Yes, 3 or 4 time as much braking distance with ABS.
Use ABS as a warning and back off the d___ brake pedal.
Interesting, but do they work on the trucks with trailers? The doubles and triples.
Well a "Super B Tridem" will have 30 tires available for braking and only 8 tires available for pulling traction. The automatic chains are just used on the driving wheels.
Ever watched "Ice Road Truckers"? At time they are only running with chains on 2 or 4 out of 8 driving tires.
They still running demolition-derbies at county fairs?
Out here we run "Combine Crunches" at the rodeos. Instead of cars we use old agricultural combine-harvesters.
While we seem to be losing more rights and privileges every year, out here it is still legal to operate a motor vehicle while under the influence of country music.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This is not actually the case. Maximum force between a tire and paved surface is achieved at a non-zero slip ratio, between 10%-20% slip depending on tire design, surface type, and other variables.
3 or 4 TIMES?
As in, if stopping under threshold braking took 50 feet, an ABS stop took 200 feet?
I don't believe you. IF that is the case, your vehicle has something very severely wrong with it.
The point of ABS is NOT to achieve the shortest possible braking distance- the point of ABS is to minimize braking distances for the vast overwhelming majority of drivers, who in an emergency situation will slam the brake pedal down with every muscle fiber they possess.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I am now scared when I have a SUV full of kids tailgating as I KNOW it can not stop if needed to.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
As Waross says, ease off the brake just below ABS threshold to get a good stop, if the road surface is anything but bare and dry pavement. It takes some practice on various roads and conditions before you get a feel for it for any given car or truck. I tend to do this "practice" when nobody else is in the car with me. However, I have made it a point to test the ABS on pavement during test-drives, with the dealership salesman beside me. I enjoy scaring those guys.
STF
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
https://www.yahoo.com/news/another-person-reported...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Or do you mean both of them?
Norm
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Few things are more disengaging than riding heard on automated systems, i.e. watch, but don't touch.
Regards,
Mike
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
BBC Newshour Extra 'Driving into the future' (as opposed to the side of a truck). 50m audio podcast, downloadable MP3.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tesla-crash-tr...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Let's propose instead, that all autos should have big posts sticking up on the corner like a four-poster bed, that'd do the same thing, right? or is it only a good idea if somebody else is paying for it?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Certainly a reasonable amount of structure behind the skirts wouldn't add a lot to the cost of the skirts.
... BUT, whether the structure was sturdy enough to bounce the car off with little damage to the truck, or even if the structure were designed to dissipate substantial energy, say by decelerating the car in the width of the trailer, that crash would not have been survivable either way, witness the damage from the tree.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
apart from the color of the sky, I understood that there was a type of proximity sensor which did not scan high enough above the ground to see the trailer. It would have seen/detected a skirt extending close to the ground.
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
It's not clear that it could have detected the difference.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Another novel idea, rather than lowering everything that the car might run into so it can see it, would be to raise the sensor's height to say, maybe the level at which things won't decapitate you if you try to drive under them. But that's the trouble with relying on a camera and some proximity sensors to paint a picture of a dynamic environment precisely enough that you can navigate a car at speed through it. The LIDAR approach is much more robust (and expensive, and complicated).
Any car that I am ceding authority for decision making to had better be able to tell a semi-truck from a billboard from a Sasquatch without any special modifications to those things.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
On the other hand, if self driving cars either won't self drive, or just will not move for a defective camera, then a one off event is nothing but a computer glitch.
Just reboot the car and replace the passenger.
The debate on if you trust a self driving car over a human driven car, is the same question if you trust the driver of your car pool.
A bigger debate is who gets the ticket for careless driving?
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Why is the government responsible for this? How about the lobbyists? What is to stop a trucking firm from installing this on their own, rules or now rules?
Would a skirt have prevented this fatality? Did the car even brake?
--
JHG
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
I have my doubts that such a structure would actually stand up to being hit by a car at 70 mph. I think they're mostly meant to reduce the chance of pedestrians and bicyclists being run over in city traffic.
Rear under-ride protection on box trailers needs work, too. Better designs are available, but they're not mandated, so they don't get used.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tesla-driver-fa...
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This does bother me:
Not possible to collect vehicle data on a Tesla without going to the factory? Do these things not have a CANBUS port? Can the NTSB validate the data that Tesla provided?
STF
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Besides, accessibility is only part of it. There would need to be a general protocol, which would require a standard. There would need to be some assurance that the hardware could survive crashes that it currently would not, etc. The end result would be an orange box ala airplane recorders, which is not cheap.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
HWY16FH018 Docket
Also, I'm not sure if anybody has ever listened to this, but the podcast 99% Invisible, which is about design and architecture, did a 2-part podcast on "the automation paradox" in which automation actually makes things more unsafe in an emergency because it hands over control to an un-attentive human, whose skills have atrophied, at the worst possible time. The first part was about the Air France 447 crash, the second is about self-driving cars.
I think it's totally relevant here. The link is here: Johnnycab (Automation Paradox, Pt. 2. In this case, Tesla calls their system "Autopilot". Telling the driver "oh, you have to keep your hands on the wheel" when every incentive is to just treat it as a fully autonomous car, may not hold a lot of water. I wonder what the liability courts will say.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Guess you'd have to sue for deactivation.
Richard Feynman's Problem Solving Algorithm
1. Write down the problem.
2. Think very hard.
3. Write down the answer.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
This is not a new issue.
As soon as it became technically possible to automate a vehicle with computers, engineers HAD to figure out what level of automation was appropriate.
Reprinted from "Digital Apollo" by David Mindell https://books.google.ca/books?id=gXYItzQARVoC&...
While it was easy to identify the extremes (as in the cartoon above), the best middle-ground was hotly debated. It was a very contentious issue, with astronauts pushing hard to have maximum control over the spacecraft, program managers pushing just as hard to ensure 100% mission success (by eliminating human error) - all of it offset by insightful engineers and specialists who figured out just how much command and control fidelity a trained human can handle in a computerized system before becoming overloaded.
NB. This is probably why Niel Armstrong was chosen to be the first man to walk on the moon. His mastery over computer control systems was unmatched by most other astronauts and it saved his life over and over through X-15 flying, NASA training, and Gemini. Everyone in the NASA chain of command knew that no computer could kill him. He made sure to prove it one last time, 25 seconds before touchdown!
STF
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
No real pilot will get into anything without a window.
Richard Feynman's Problem Solving Algorithm
1. Write down the problem.
2. Think very hard.
3. Write down the answer.
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
RE: Tesla Autopilot, fatal crash into side of truck
Where's the smiley icon for "brimming over with jealousy?"
Now that you've got me googling his name again, I see he has published a new book. Thanks!
STF