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tired of bad drawings
4

tired of bad drawings

tired of bad drawings

(OP)
hello - sorry for a monday mourning rant but here goes - last friday i brought a drawing to the attention of our engineering supervisor that had every dimension on the drawing as basic - datums taken from odd surfaces, incorrect use of true position & tolerances between holes set to .001+/- which are not required - i had suggested to change the drawing to correct the mistakes which were very obvious to someone w/ gd&t training or even good drafting skills - i was told to leave the drawing alone & make no change because the shop would look at the drawing & know to pay a little extra attention when making the part - i was at a loss for words as to why things like this are let go almost regularly & we keep from teaching people in the work force the correct way to do things - i ask how inspection was to check this part & just got a fluff answer w/ a deer in the headlights look - how do people work in engineering for so many years at so many jobs & continue to fly blind & not take responsibility for their work - i had to learn the right way why is it acceptable for some to just get by - now i can have my coffee - have a great week ahead

RE: tired of bad drawings

Agreed, 100%.

You'll get three types of responses if a drawing like that goes out for bid.

1- "no bid" from people who could have made the part easily and fairly priced, if the drawing was decent.
2- "low bid" from people who will drag the part out with RFIs and PO change orders to increase the cost to an unreasonable amount, all because of incorrect engineering.
3- Some shop will accept it, just make the widget "good enough" based on their own experience and some gambling, and hope for the best. The part may not even work, and you'll not have much recourse unless you want to burn a bridge and lessen your potential pool of suppliers.

RE: tired of bad drawings

@duk748: I am just trying to visualize how bad the drawing actually was.

If EVERY dimension on the drawing was basic, how do you know that tolerance between the holes was +/-.001?

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: tired of bad drawings

(OP)
hello again & thank you for the replies - the dimensions were like that because they were shown on the drawing like that - jnieman was on the same track as i was - if that drawing were sent out like that to a shop we would look like a bunch of fools & the part would cost an arm & a leg - i believe that a good shop would just reject even looking at the part until it was changed - my biggest concern is how management would even let that drawing go to our in house shop & then not try to show the person who made the drawing how to correct it - now that person will continue to do this same kind of work w/o any real reason to learn or do any better - i am just surprised as to what is allowed to be turned out anymore - dazed & confused

RE: tired of bad drawings

duk748:

From my 35 years of exposure to BAD drawings: Mechanical Engrs get NO training in college as to how to communicate their designs. They get a few CAD classes and think they're draftsman - not even close. I found that once exposed to size, form, orientation and location concepts, rookie engineers realize what an important tool GDT is and start to apply it (with constructive critique along the way of course). Those exposed to basic machining and inspection methods understand even more. The root cause: training is the first thing cut from a budget.

RE: tired of bad drawings

Do you mean there was a dimension as basic and a tolerance?

1.125 +/- .001 BASIC

RE: tired of bad drawings

I have to deal with poor drawing daily. It's because of no training/experience, and don't care/not my problem mentality. It gets worse annually.

Chris, CSWP
SolidWorks '16
ctophers home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: tired of bad drawings

It's not just no training or experience, no one is even setting the expectation and the people doing the work don't seem to take much pride in it (or at least in the quality of the drawings).

However, this (or closely related topics) has been discussed at length before so I'll leave it there.

thread1103-234444: Degradation of Drawing Standards
thread1103-265799: Drawing Quality
thread1103-349546: Engineers and Crappy Drafting
thread730-221206: I Hate Drawings!!!
thread731-193707: Lazy designers/drafters
thread732-236588: Not getting sucked into CAD
thread731-232080: I am an engineer am I commiting career suicide?
thread730-184173: Are drawings needed anymore?
thread732-87322: Just a CAD drafter
thread730-282775: 2D drawing nearly dead?

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: tired of bad drawings

Shake it off. If no one is noticing there is nothing that can be fixed. The company must have the occasional assembly failure where they talk to the vendor about opening holes up and that is deemed cheaper than getting things done correctly. Best thing to do is to ask for policies at the places you interview.

RE: tired of bad drawings

If your supervisor doesn't see the issue, then take this advice as you see fit but.... you're jousting with a windmill.

I've had great luck moving smaller companies into better practices WHEN management was on board. Larger companies on the other hand pose a whole different challenge, even with a supervisor on your side.

1. This is the way we've always done it and we've built things that work doing it that way

Probably the biggest corrosive to change, ever.

RE: tired of bad drawings

KENAT:

Might I ask how you filtered past posts to get the list you posted?

And I agree, in addition to the lack of training, mediocrity plays into the "acceptance" (lack of recognition) of BAD drawings. I have also found that the sheer size of a company can impact this because of compartmentalization/departmentalization. In addition, in some cases, the separation of engineering and manufacturing due to outsourcing disallows the consequences of BAD drawings to be recognized for their profit robbing affect.

RE: tired of bad drawings

Bad drawings come from our own levels of indifference or intolerance. When I started out 30yrs ago I got almost every drawing returned, bled all over with red ink marking the corrections and clarifications I had to make. I hardly see anyone do that today. When you get berated for being too picky, tell them you are only trying to be less ambiguous. I agree with Emorrison, spin it as a cost savings, or whatever manner it needs to be to get upper management support.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: tired of bad drawings

mkcksi - the Search Functionality on this site works reasonably well, that's how I did it.

I'm not talking about the fairly generic google custom search at the top of the thread, I'm talking about the 'Search' button on the silver/gray ribbon near the top under the thread title.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: tired of bad drawings

MadMango:

I like the cost savings approach to improvement. But management typically wants to measure the effort to see if savings are realized. This is the tough part as BAD drawings impact many areas.

RE: tired of bad drawings

KENAT:
Thanks.

RE: tired of bad drawings

Let's see how this goes.

I'm three years out of college, and I'm sure my drawings aren't what they should be. A lot of what I see here is correct, many schools teach CAD, not engineering communication. I think I had a professor who was the exception to the rule. We did all of the classwork for the lecture portion with pencils and a straightedge. He would assign a 10 point problem and had 15 potential points to take off for errors (e.g. -3 for a dimension to a hidden line, -2 for not extending center lines, -2 for dimensioning to a T, -1 for unbroken crossed witness lines, -1 for calling out a hole in the non-circular view, -1 for missing a center line in right view, -1 if any lines were too thick, -1 for each overall dimension not explicitly given, -1 for any lowercase letters). That said, I like to think I received better instruction than most. Certainly, comparing notes with college friends "up the road" revealed that they were being taught CAD as a main dish, with drawings as a side. I'm pretty comfortable with the way I was taught at my school, but unfortunately our unit on GD&T was only one lecture, which I think (from some extracurricular reading) could have been a whole course in and of itself. To make matters worse, my first job out of college was working in a manufacturing environment where phrases like "don't bother with tolerances - it's a waste of time since our suppliers know how to make our stuff" (that's right, not just GDNT, all tolerances) and "just send them the model and be done with it" were praised by management as a time cost savings. I was scolded once for "wasting" 2 weeks on a drawing with 100+ components.

I'm telling you all this not to get your blood boiling, but to give you some perspective. Speaking on behalf of the last few years' graduates, we're not equipped to make quality drawings right out of the chute. And "entry level jobs" (which, don't forget, all require 2-5 years of experience) aren't willing to invest in anyone and teach them the right way to do things. The result? Exactly what you've been seeing.

I'll be the first to say "yes, I need to know this better" when it comes to drafting rules. Right now I'm working at a very small company where we pursue excellence, and every drawing gets passed around and red-penned before being released. But that can only do so much, since my 2 colleagues have similar background stories. Can anyone recommend a solid textbook or online training course that goes over all the "do"s and "don't"s of drafting? Right now we're in a slow patch, and I know management would be willing to invest in some training to make sure we're putting out quality products. I just need a starting point, and this seems like a group that might know one.

Thanks in advance,
Nate

RE: tired of bad drawings

Nate,

Asuming in the US not working to ISO then I'd focus directly on the relevant ASME standards Y14.100, especially Y14.5. Not forgetting Y14.3 and Y14.24 among others. If nothing else maybe you management will get you a set.

They don't have everything when it comes to general good drafting practice etc. but most of the truly important stuff is in them somewhere.

If the ranking scheme your instructor uses was really as you give then his priorities seem to be a little off but (while I'm a bit of a pedant, given the general use of CAD with pre-set formatted line styles etc. then spending much time on things like 'line weights' seems questionable, missing dimensions would be more of an issue in typical production environment & I think breaking crossing witness lines may have been dropped some time ago) however it sounds better than what I got.

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: tired of bad drawings

(OP)
hello again & thanks to all who have chimed in on this subject - i will follow 3ddave's advice & just "shake it off!" - hope all have a great holiday weekend

RE: tired of bad drawings

natepiercy:

I honor your insight at this point in your career. You will go far for sure!

My recommendation:

Purchase all of the Y14.XX series Standards recommended above. All other "books" you can buy are expanded interpretations of what is "required" by these documents.

Drafting concepts - lines types, views, sections, etc - is the "easy" part and repetition will give you competence.

However, what is harder to master is how to communicate the geometric characteristics of features on parts. These are size and form for individual features and orientation and location RELATIONSHIPS between features, which require datums. There are many web sites where you can buy good GD&T materials. Ya gotta read (interpret) before you can write (apply), So. to get the basics for interpretation of GD&T symbols, I recommend getting on the Tec-Ease.com web site and purchasing the "The GD&T Hierarchy" textbook as well as the related workbook and answer books. To move to application concepts, I recommend James D. Meadows' book GD&T "Applications, Analysis and Measurement" as a starting point.



RE: tired of bad drawings

@natepiercy:

I will add a little to KENAT's and mkcski's advice: have your company pay for "all of the Y14.XX series" smile

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

RE: tired of bad drawings

I totally agree with CH. Unless you want to start a personal library, get the boss to pay for them and get of ALL of them.

RE: tired of bad drawings

Thanks for the advice, all.

Kenat,
That's not a specific example, you're right that things like missing dimensions or lines would be worth more. I just threw together a list of more nitpicky things and threw point values at it to add up to 15 to give an example. If I was to start building a personal library, would 14.100 or 14.5 be the best starting point? Also (admittedly straying quite off topic) as an ASME member, am I eligible for any kind of discount on standards? Or does everyone pay the same price for these?

Mkcski,
Thank you for your recommendations! I just got the thumbs-up to buy the 2009 collection.

RE: tired of bad drawings

natepiercy:

There is no "2009 collecdtion" Each standard has its own revision year.

If your drafting skills are not up to snuff, I would get 14.2 first, then 14.3, 14.5. Get 14.41 if you are communication in the electronic 3D-model world and not traditional 2D drawings. Forget 14.100 - very management oriented synopsis. I have heard of the "Genium Drafting Manual", but have never seen it- might be worth investigation.

RE: tired of bad drawings

As an ASME member I believe you get a discount but they are still quite expensive - I'd seriously look at getting your mgmt to pay if at all possible. I think you may be able to buy as a complete set - not 100% sure.

I'd disagree with mkcski, while 14.100 is fairly high level 'list of standards' for much of its content there are some nuggets in there not covered elsewhere. Especially if you decide to use the non mandatory appendices for guidance - I actually refer to it about as much as any other standard except Y14.5.

Y14.5 is the one I use most but... it is focused on dimensioning & tolerancing and there is more to good drafting than just that.

If your CAD has a canned ASME style setting then you probably won't get much out of Y14.2 so I wouldn't bother with it, and unless you are revising/setting up your templates not sure how much you get out of Y14.1.

For 'general drafting' I'd pick Y14.3 & Y14.24.

If you do castings, forging or molded parts then I'd say Y14.8 is virtually a must.

Y14.34 & Y14.35 also get to be useful on occasion.

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: tired of bad drawings

natepiercy:

I rarely refer to 14.100, but after reading KENATs' comments, he is correct and I agree you should buy 14.100 too.

RE: tired of bad drawings

I feel your pain, I wish I could share some of the trash that previous "designers" have made that are released and controlled now by customers so I just have to roll with them.

Its insane.

There was a part that was made to fit inside this assembly. I looked at it and all the dimensions were basic, no criticals or tolerances, AND to top it all off, the dimensions were not taken from the interface surfaces. I brought it up to my boss and said we needed to do an ECN on the drawing because we would have issues, I was told, no no dont worry its fine.

So they had one made and guess what? It didnt fit...

RE: tired of bad drawings

mckski:
I should have clarified - I was given approval to purchase the Y14.X 2009 collection of "The GD&T Hierarchy" plus workbooks, answer manuals, and pocket ref.

So you both agree that 14.5 is the most useful to start with, if we're only purchasing one at a time? Followed by 14.100, then 14.3? I wasn't kidding when I said "small company" - it's just the three of us. I'm guessing that I'll have more luck asking for smaller packages over a dispersed period of time. We have a weekly meeting and we set aside some time to do knowledge sharing, and I know we will all see the benefit of taking that time to review (or teach) some best practices based on the ASME standards.

RE: tired of bad drawings

14.5 covers the dimensioning and tolerancing, which is arguably the heart of what most mechanical drawings need to communicate.

I'm a bit dissapointed you jumped to getting the training material etc. rather than the actual standards given what several of us posted but it'll probably work out. The standards by themselves can be a bit dry & in 14.5's case overwhelming.

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: tired of bad drawings

natepiercy:

In response to KENAT's last post: I agree 14.5 is the DICTIONARY for reading and writing GDT? Ideally you should have 14.5 in front of you and then read the training info and compare the interpretation in the training to the words in the spec.

RE: tired of bad drawings

Ah. That makes a lot of sense, actually. I was looking for any and all recommendations for a starting point, so the first title I got that was up my alley was what I set my eyes on.

RE: tired of bad drawings

natepiercy:

Over time I would recommend you purchase as much/many training "books" as you can to get different and better examples of GDT applications and their interpretation.

Alex Krulikowskis' materials at ETInews.com are comprehensive. Al Neumann and Bruce Wilson also have web sites, as will as many others. As I mentioned earlier, my personal favorites are Don Days materials at Tec-Ease. The pictorials are really good and in color!

RE: tired of bad drawings

The problem with training materials is seen in the progression of learning to program:

Step 1) Person is introduced to the concepts.
Step 2) Some examples are seen. (seeing the basic (pun!) symbols)
Step 3) Person tries simple program that is evaluated by non-biased computer/software. (understanding the grammar)
Step 4) Repeat 3 until program meets expectations. (understanding basic tolerance analysis)
Step 5) Practice increasingly complex programs evaluated by non-biased computer/software.
Step 6) Repeat 5 until programs meet expectations. (understanding medium tolerance analysis)
Step 7) Learn to analyze software written by others (understanding complex tolerance analysis)
Step 8) Learn to generate programs that write other programs (creating tolerance schemes to match variation limit requirements)

What is usually missing is everything at step 3 and after. The only non-biased computer I've come across for dealing with D&T was the software from VSA. It was easily checked to see that its analysis conformed to Y14.5 and produced results that should be expected from the dimensioning and tolerancing scheme applied by a compliant factory.

For most people it's like learning to program by asking other people what they think a program will do when none of them has had access to a computer. While it's possible to do, the rate of success is going to be low and the rate of people believing their own incorrect answers is high. The lack of a standard, unbiased method of evaluation continues to be a problem with people creating and sticking to incorrect and sometimes outlandish interpretations.

Most training materials are stuck at step 2. If there is low-cost, easy-to-use software that clearly demonstrates the effects of tolerance schemes it would be good to know. VSA and Sigmetrix aren't in that category, however good they are.

RE: tired of bad drawings

3DDave:
I agree that "talking heads" in GDT videos are boring and do not provide motivation to understand concepts. I was very fortunate to have a mentor at my place of work in the 1980's. He was a great teacher. After I caught up to his level, we both advanced our understanding by attending seminars presented by Y14.5 committee members at our place of work and at "engineering" conventions. We continually picked the brains of these "experts" via fax and later email.

Natepiercy: Given my experiences, I highly recommend you find a mentor and attend seminars presented by a real person! Plus using this Forum as a springboard !!!

RE: tired of bad drawings

mkcski: How did you find out about these seminars? Were these generally sponsored by an organization such as ASME or a company?

RE: tired of bad drawings

natepiercy:

Get on the ASME web site and look for GDT "classes" sponsored by ASME. The ones I attended in the 80' and 90's were at ASME conventions held throughout the year (so members can present papers and vendors can show their wares).

I am currently signed up to attend a "stacks" seminar at Effective Training Inc (ETI)in Lavonia, MI ETI is a SAE division. They have many classes available.

Tec-Ease also has classes. I attended a "what's new in 2009" seminar run by Don Day at a Y14 committee meeting in 2010. He is very dynamic but I am not sure he is still presenting.

At great cost, you can pay an "exert" to come to your office/plant. The company I work at in the 80's had Al Neumann come for a whole week and run 2 sessions each day. I learned and unlearned quite a bit.

RE: tired of bad drawings

Don Day is no longer presenting as he passed away recently. http://www.chautauquatoday.com/obits/details.cfm?i...

The underlying problem isn't the difficulty of learning the material, it's that those who don't care to learn it have an opinion and do care to share it. Hence the need for a non-person evaluation.

D&T has been around for more than half a century, but it is generally poorly used because of the pulled-from-the-... analytical ability of the 95% who think they know something because they got to what I numbered as stage 2. I doubt that anyone would hire a programmer with the same stage 2 credentials (though I've read enough Daily WTF to know that doesn't stop idiots with opinions commenting on software; not the commenters on DWTF who are hilarious, the people they work with/for.)

RE: tired of bad drawings

3DDave:

Thanks for the update on Don Day. I was following his blog on and off for years and all of a sudden it ended. Now I know why. This is a great loss for him family, friends, the GDT community and to advancement of the "technology".

I totally agree with your comment "those who don't care to learn it have an opinion and do care to share". I have run into many "expert" students in my intro class who argue the definitions even after I read them word for word. They refuse to believe they have been doing it wrong - incorrectly inspecting flatness (as parallelism) is a classic - and that they need to unlearn some things. Oh well.

My problem for many years was the lack of an "official" test to give some creditably to those who do know GDT. Finally in the 1990s the test arrived. I was somewhat disappointed after taking the test (in 1999) that it mainly required one to regurgitate the standard and there were too few "analysis/calculation" type of questions. Anyway, from my travels, testing in this subject is one of the hardest things to do fairly.

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