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How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

(OP)
We plan on adding a cantilever slab onto a wall, and I'm the sure the joint can be considered as an embedded joint. I couldn't find anything in the national standards guides (CSA).

See picture for planned slab details. Please not the the angles at the right of the pictures are simply guides for the underlying brick wall.

img https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/up...]

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

How does the classification as "embedded" factor into things? Structurally, it's a connection and you'll either make it work by the numbers or you won't. Does the embedded classification affect some other aspect such as fire rating? Are you concerned with it being embedded at the left end or the right?

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

(OP)
I'm worrying about the left end, since the right end is not supported at all.

What I'm wondering is if the scenario works at all, as in, can it be considered Diagram A, or is it Diagram B because rebars and a straight joint are not enough for the slab to be considered embedded.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

diagram B would be free to spin around over and over. so it would have to be A. but you need to provide the connection to achieve that.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

Diagram B is unstable, you must design the connection for Diagram A by finding the moment about the left support and ensuring the moment capacity is greater.

However, from the picture you provided it appears that the slab has vertical supports on both ends? This would be a much simpler design.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

(OP)
I know that Diagram B is unstable.


>so it would have to be A. but you need to provide the connection to achieve that.

How would one calculate the connections to achieve that/where can I find info on that?

Do I just calculate the traction resistance of the upper rank anchors (in this case rebars anchored in Hilti HY-200). Can rebars realistically have the required moment capacity?


>However, from the picture you provided it appears that the slab has vertical supports on both ends?

Actually, the right end is not a support. The Angles serve only as a guide for the underlying brick walls, and for some reason, it's not possible to use this wall as a support.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

Quote (ElBenito)

Do I just calculate the traction resistance of the upper rank anchors (in this case rebars anchored in Hilti HY-200). Can rebars realistically have the required moment capacity?
Yes to all. Except there's the issue of long term creep with the epoxy.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

Sum the moments about the bottom rebar at the face of the wall will get the you the total pull out force for the top rebar.

If "F" is the force on the wall, "L" is the distance between the left and right end, and "d" is the distance between top and bottom rebar, the pullout force would be:

F * L / d

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

Designing the slab is probably not too difficult, but what is an "MUR" wall, and what leads you to believe that the wall is sufficient to take the cantilever moment?

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

(OP)

Quote (hokie66)

Designing the slab is probably not too difficult, but what is an "MUR" wall, and what leads you to believe that the wall is sufficient to take the cantilever moment?

The wall is sufficient, I just have some other restrictions preventing me from using it as a support.

The plan in the OP is in french. "MUR" means "wall".

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

I am talking about the supporting wall, the one on the left. How do you know it is sufficient to take the cantilever moment?

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

Some good design info for these kinds of connections here: Link. Hilti offers software that you can use as well. And experts that you can speak with. I work their Canadian reps often.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: How to determine if a joint can be considered embedded

I take it there's no way of using that CMU wall as a support?

As a side note, be sure to account for sufficient installation tolerance for "d" in your calculation. I'm assuming the wall you're attaching to is reinforced so there is a high probability they will hit rebar then move the new bars when trying to drill the new reinforcing in. The bars WILL NOT end up exactly where you expect them.

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