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Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
thread327-286047: Need catia V5 CPD (composite part design) help
Hi, I am using CATIA V5 for composite modeling on curved surface. I am using grid method for modeling, in manufacturing module I am unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately.In reality Plies in one laminate must have different dimensions due to curvature. (Inner most ply must have smallest dimension). Kindly help me out in this regard. Secondly how can I manipulate Title block in Composite Ply book ?
Thanks

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

What do you mean by get dimensions? Create you onw title block for composites. I use standard Ply book macro, then I delete all in the background and run our company title block.
Upload you 3D. I'll take a kook.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Dear Janial thank u for your concern. Regarding Dimensions, let's suppose, I apply a laminate of 5 layers on curved surface ( half tail of symmetrical aerofoil) using Grid method in CATIA V5. After flattening of plies, In Drafting all flattened plies have the same dimension. But, In reality each ply should have different dimension because they are applied on curved surface, not on a flat surface.Inner most ply should have smallest dimension and outermost should have largest dimension, but this is not the case. Is it built in feature of CATIA or am I missing something ? Sorry I am unable to upload 3D, will upload soon.
I tried to use your suggested method to create my own Title Block, but once I created ply book using Composite Ply Book, I was unable to delete Standard composite Title Block. But, it was possible to create, delete or customize Existing Title Blocks in an empty worksheet, by using commands Set Background----->Insert----->Frame and Title Block.
Would you please help me out in this regard.
Thanks

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Personally I don't think than you'll see a big difference between flat patterns. Even if it's on a curved surface so what? It's only 5 plies therefore the difference will be minimal. Any way you don't have to care about flat patterns because you will manufacture a part with at least of 0.5" excess material. Wouldn't you? 3D needed for a deep review.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Dear Jenial, you are absolutely right. This would not make much difference as there will be minimal difference in lengths, and you will also have excess material for trimming purpose. But you don't always have to use such small no. of plies. let's assume you have to apply a core of honeycomb between these plies, or you have spars and ribs or any other complex situation. Then there should be remarkable difference between first and last ply dimensions, but this is not the scenario in my case. I am attaching a file with more than 70 plies on a curved surface, kindly guide me how can I get the exact dimensions of each ply. Am I missing something in Design process ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

With such slightly formed surface you won't see any difference between first and last ply. Maybe if you will use CFM as propagation type you will see a little difference. CFM propagation available within CFM license.

Believe me if you will model a part with core you'll see a difference between first and last ply. To get better flat patterns you may use 2 master surfaces. One below core and one over core. Personally i don't do that because on all of my parts i have at least 0.5" excess. If you have a specific part (real part) with issues don't hesitate to contact me. I'll try to help.

Cheers,

Jenia Ladkov

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Dear Jenia Ladkov, Thank you so much and sorry for being late. I tried CFM as well but it gives the same result. My point is that let's suppose on half airfoil I apply three layers of composite, then core of honeycomb and there is no core at ribs and spars places and then last layer. Last layer should follow ups and down bcz honeycomb is missing in some areas and last layer must have different dimension as compare to first one. This does not happen in my case and I get same dimension for all layers. I am attaching a file. Kindly help me out in this regard and let me know where I am doing something wrong.
Thank you again.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Create a core and move it after seq 40. Run producibility analysis with following parameters

As you can see first ply is wider than last. Also try to avoid using the same name for the plies.
This is also working without core. Just check with thickness update option.

p.s This thread shall be moved to catia section on this board so other catia users may learn something.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Dear Jenia Ladkov, Thank you so much for your assistance. I am using crack version CATIA V5-6 R2014. I could not find thickness update option in producibility of this version. I tried but could not get different dimensions for first and last plies. Is it because of "Crack version" or "R2014" or am I missing something else? Which version are you using ? Is advance Producibility feature you are using introduced by INCEPTRA? I am attaching another file, would you please share the files with flattened plies of this and previous one.
Thanks.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

I use V5R26. As you can see the interface looks quite different. Interface change comes from V5R25. You can find thickness update here:
http://catiadoc.free.fr/online/cpdug_C2/cpdugut170...
Check With thickness update.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Dear, It did work. Thank you so much for your help. Is it possible to generate composite PLY Book for an assembly file? And would you please tell me the script to get plies weight in title automatically. Same script works for non composite parts but does not compute plies weight.
Thanks

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

No it's not possible. Ply book works only with staking objects. As for the script you can workaround on Ply book macro. You can also use attribute link to get ply weight.
Why do you need ply weight to be shown on drawing?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Ok Thank you. I was asking because VB code has attribute link to get part mass but still it does not show ply mass in drawing. If you use other VB code provided by CATIA to generate TITLE BLOCK, it shows PLY mass in Drawing. Same link doe not work in PLY BOOK. Is there any reason ? Secondly using seed at different locations creates flattened Plies of different size and boundary. What should be location of seed point to get accurate flattened PLY in case of HAND LAY UP ?
Thank you.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

I guess ply book macro works together with some CAA application. I have contacted Dassault if they can give some info regarding VB and composites. Awaiting for an answer.
Yes you are right different seed point location will give you different flat pattern. It's hard to say where is the right location for a seed point. It depends on shape and other factors.
Start with geometrical center location and run producibility analysis. If it's not looking good then switch to indication, move seed point and see how this affects analysis.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Thank you for your concern and effort. Does the flattened ply using different seed points has same area(seed point does not make any difference in final dimensions for cutting ) ? Is there no standard for seed point? Is not seed point at geometrical center is impractical in case of hand layup ( because its the starting point for the placement of plies on mold surface ). What should be the propagation type for glass fiber, carbon fiber and kevlar ? Is it necessary to define material properties like warn steering in producibility ?
Thank you so much for your time and support.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Definitely different area because of different shape. Again it's hard to say where seed point should be. It's not a matter of material it's a matter of a shape. To better understand how to pick seed point you have to get yourself to a shop floor and see what's going on in a real time.

It's always better to define as much properties as possible. Have never checked if this will affect flattening.
If you don't want to get to much rings indian from a shop floor guys it's better to define warn steering.
If you have seed point issues with a specific part just upload a 3D here and i'll try to help.

p.s Do you use laser projector for plies lay-up?

Cheers,
Jenia Ladkov

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Ok. Thank you for your support. Would you please let me know the attribute link to get material of non-composite parts in Drafting Title Block ? Is it possible to get material name of all assigned composite materials in drafting? I will upload parts, I would not be able to get reasonable flattened plies.
No , I don't use Laser Projector for Hand Lay up.
Thanks again.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Here's how to use attribute link. Before using this make sure you have material or whatever property in a CATPart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlm7k_OtHek

There are several ways to export composite data from Catia.

First one numerical analysis
http://catiadoc.free.fr/online/cfyugcpd_C2/cfyugcp...

Second one: You can export plies table from Catia to Excel and then you can insert it into a drawing.
Third one: You can use core sample. Personally i prefer core sample because of its associativity.
http://catiadoc.free.fr/online/cfyugcpd_C2/cfyugcp...
Use Core sample drawing view style to bring lay-up table into a drawing. Let me know if you need help on that.

Cheers,
Jenia Ladkov

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Thank you so much. Also in my opinion, core sample is better option smile. I will let you know if I find difficulty in Plies Flattening.
Thanks.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

In Catia V5 R27 will be an opportunity to bring fully associated with stacking table into a drawing. You said you use hand lay-up. Prepregs or wet lay-up?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
We use Prepregs. If we have 3 to 4 layers and staggering and excess material is not required, can we use flattening feature directly without using composite manufacturing feature? Can we use FEFLATTEN in producibility for carbon fiber ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

You can use unfold function but remember this will act different from composites flattening. Flattening in composites works directly with defined material properties such as steering angle. To get better results use composites workbench. Yes you can use FEFLATTEN. I personally like this solver.
We use composites for both prepregs and wet lay-up.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Thank you. Is it possible to flatten core material like Honey comb? I am not staggering my plies as no. of plies are very small. Would it make any difference in flattening or export xml file ? Don't you think that prepregs are better option ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

For core flattening i use unfold option (available inside surfacing workbench). This option works pretty well for honeycomb and rohacell.
Plies flattening option not designed for cores.

For a small number of plies you can not to use composites workbench. Just use excel to create lay-up table or whatever table.
There is one advantage in composites workbench and this is plies direction. You don't have such opportunity if you use surfacing.

It's hard to answer what is a better option. It depends on application and part type/class. First of all think of a price....

p.s never use sheet metal option for cores flattening.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Ok Thank you so much. I am talking about staggering option in composite manufacturing after material excess. If you stagger your plies group a manufacturing point is shown under ply in side tree. If you don't stagger your plies, no point is shown.
Yeah you are absolutely right depends upon application and cost is also a major factor.
Thank you I was thinking to use sheet metal optionsurprise.
BTW why sheet metal option should not be used ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Waiting for ur kind reply smile

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

I don't use SM because it behaves different from unfolding. SM designed for metals and that is why i get differences in flatten geometry between SM and unfold. I already checked that on several complex parts. Unfold is my choice.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
ok Thank you very much. What would you say about staggering point in Composite Manufacturing ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

What do you mean by staggering point? Isn't it seed point? If it's yes then it is important to use seed point during lay-up process but only on complex shapes. There are two ways to show seed point:
1. Laser projection
2. Ply book/production file that will show approx location of seed point (this method requires some modifications in drawing standard).

With a simple shapes it's not so critical. Anyway start with producibility analysis. Take a look at colors. Yellow let's say is ok (but requires some attention), red means that you have to start pay attention (compression or tension).

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Ok Thank you. I am talking about this,
http://catiadoc.free.fr/online/cpdug_C2/cpdugut200...
I did not get your second point. Would u please explain, what kind of modification will be needed in drawing standard. and what is meant by shearing angle in producibility ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

I don't use this for wet/prepregs layups. For FAP technology this may be useful but not for hand layup.
By shearing angle you can see how prepreg behaves at different areas using different seed point. This analysis helps to get more accurate flat patterns.

Regarding drawing standard you have to set to display seed point/curve on. After view creation you'll see that point on drawing. This is the only way to show seed point to guys on a shop floor without laser projection.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
OK Thanks a lot. In case of Hand Lay up, Does a seed point placed on other than corners of ply renders it impractical, as you can not start placing ply in mold from center or somewhere else ? Or am I understanding it totally wrong ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Hi Jenial, I need some help regarding drafting. I modified existing macro for title block, but was not unable to control frame and title block line thickness and font, searched on net and found your code for line thickness. Is there any option in CATIA programming to control these parameters, to bold some text in Title Block ?
I modified existing ISO Drafting standard, and created some drawings before this modification, now this standard does not update already drawn dimensions like arrow size, arrow style, Dimension font size, dimension font style, view line thicknes etc. Is there any option to update already existing dimensions to new standard or I have to draw all views and dimensions again ?
Anxiously waiting for your reply.
Thanking in anticipation.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Hi,
You don't have to start from corners. There are some cases when you can't start lay-up from a corner. It depends on a shape.
Post some screens and i'll try to explain where and why seed point should be.

yes you can control text properties using scripts. What programming language do you use? to update existing dimensions use following command T:Dim* (use Catia command for that / right bottom corner). This command will select all the dimensions. what you have to is to press alt+enter to enter properties. Now you can edit everything you want in one shot.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Thank u so much. I will try to upload in a day or two.
I modified existing title block written in VBA. How to bold some text in VBA ?
How to update arrow style, font style as updating standard does not update this ?
Thank you for command, will let u know if I still face some difficulty. Thanks smile

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Standard style depends on standard XML file. I'll upload a sample code/VBA (text properties) when i'll get back from the vacation. I'll be home next Friday.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Ok Have memorable and enjoyable vacations smile

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

About bold text. Do you want to convert existing text to bold or you want to create new one? How it's going with the standard?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
I want to write a note like.
Note:
Follow given axis system for plies
I want to bold the word "Note:"
I have assembled composite parts in product file like spars,ribs assembled in product file. Is it possible to mirror these parts in product file using Symmetry command in product module. I tried but was not able to mirror plies. only the on which plies are placed are mirrored. Would u please help in this regard. Thanks

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

I use following for text creation

CODE --> VB6

'----GENERAL NOTES----
Set MyText2 = MyDrawingViews.ActiveView.Texts.Add("NOTES:" + Chr(10) + _
                                                        "      1.INTERPRET THIS DRAWING I.A.W. ASME Y14.100M" + Chr(10) + _
                                                        "      2.DIMENSIONS AND TOLERANCES ARE I.A.W. ASME Y14.5M" + Chr(10) + _
                                                        "      3.SURFACE TEXTURE I.A.W. ASME B46.1 AND IN " + Chr(181) + "IN" + Chr(10) + _
                                                        "      4.ALL DIMENSIONS ARE I.A.W. 3D MODEL FILE", 8, 7)
MyText2.Name = "TitleBlock_Text_NOTES"
MyText2.SetFontSize 0, 0, 1.8
MyText2.SetFontName 0, 0, "Century Gothic (TrueType)"
MyText2.AnchorPosition = catBottomLeft
'----END---- 

I don't know about mirroring of composite parts in the assembly workbench. We don't use that and that is what i recommend to you. Read on this forum about digital buck data and you'll understand why companies don't do that. I'll check for you if it's possible to mirror comp parts in assy.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Thank you so much. Don't you bold any text in title block ? I made part on one PC and generated drawing on other PC, I modified the part on first PC and replaced it with part on second one containing drawing. Drawing does not show any link break and when I generate the title block after deleting the first one. It does not pick the part info. like mass, part no., definition. etc. Would you please help, what is wrong with this?
Thanks.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Hi Waiting for your kind reply. [smile]

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

Sorry for the late response. All the time I thought that you are talking about Capitals. My Mistake. Search for a text property for bold text. Never used that.
what happening if you generate new title block? Take a look and links and see if there is any problem.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
Its ok, Thank u. U did not tell about the possibility of mirroring composite parts in assembly. What would u say about symmetry of plies in composite module ?

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

What license do you use? There are two options for mirroring. First is staking mirror (requires CPE licence). You can just create half of stacking and then use mirror (useful for symmetrical stacking). Second one is composite part mirror. With stacking mirror producibility works well, but sometimes you have to run producibility again. I don't remember about composite part mirror using CPM license. I use part mirroring only for laser projection. You can check that with a simple part. Any way if it's not working just run producibility from the beginning. You have all the geometry in a mirrored part including seed points, so this won't take too much time.

RE: Unable to get dimensions for individual plies separately

(OP)
I use CPE. OK thank u so much for ur support.

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