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Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices
7

Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

(OP)
I come once again to tap into the wonderful expertise & opinions of Eng-Tips family.

Am helping specify lab equipment for a University shop facility. This facility supports the academic mission of teaching MechE, MfgE, MechEngrTech, & MfgEngrTech courses in Manufacturing Processes. We currently have a few each of Haas CNC mills & lathes of various flavors & vintages. Three manual knee mills & a couple of manual lathes. We struggle to teach Manufacturing Processes courses effectively with the current equipment & quantities. We have an opportunity to change / upgrade / replace / expand as needed to support the "Academic Mission."

I learned how to turn cranks back in the 70's with a big shop full of War Surplus worn-out machine tools. I'm not much of a machinist, but I know how not to embarrass myself (well...not too much, anyway) in the presence of a qualified tool maker. Rightly or wrongly, I believe the Academic Mission is summarized by We are not training machinists. We are training future TECH/ENGR grads what machinists DO. If the student wants to be a machinist, then they can learn it here but there are better venues for more intense training.

Our debate is about what best supports the Mission.
  • Re-stock the lab with more smaller manual tools (maybe SMITHY combo-type?) to focus on metal working fundamentals. Retain some CNC to provide exposure to CNC in later semesters.
  • De-emphasize manual tools and focus more on CNC?
Would very much welcome opinions.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

3
No. Use the more, smaller (less expensive, hand-turned) machines to make a few small parts BY HAND to Re-emphasize the metallurgy and heat transfer and physics of the cutting surfaces the cutting tips and the problems and the relief requirements and the pressures and vibrations and mechanics of the "process".

Yes, two CNC machines that they program to "see how it is done."

They will learn far more with just a few hours turning several small parts on a manual lathe and small milling machine than by producing a semester-long "grand gadget" on a shiny new large CNC machine - that they STILL will never actaully program in their future career!

These kids are coming in without ever drilling a hole, tapping that hole, and tightening a stud into the threads. They have NEVER made a "flat" surface. Most nowdays, have never even taken apart a bicycle, much less changed a tire or upgraded a full car engine or rebuilt a transmission. They have not "bent steel" nor welded nor used a chainfall or a hydraulic jack.

They don't know how to use their hands - only "run a program" (er, play games on the laptop)

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Hi

I would be in favour of the small manual machines and let the students get their hands dirty.
The principles of setting a tool to the centerline of the workpiece is the same whether manual or CNC machines are used, they will learn the basics of feedrate, turning speed etc far better with the manual machines.

That said some of the decisions on the type of machines will depend on the curriculum that you have to teach and whether it mentions programming of machine tools.

“Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater.” Albert Einstein

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

As above, a mixture of manual & CNC to cover both fundamentals and then 'this is probably how you'll see it done in production'.

Not necessarily in scope but I'd also consider if there's any way to have some sheet metal work, a casting or plastics molding set up, plastics forming (e.g. vac form) and 3D printing.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

2
I am biased on this, because I started life as a Tinbasher. Non the less a small hand brake, and shear. Maybe a small press brake of the Diacro type and a surface plate, angle square, and a digital height gage. It sounds like you already have a good selection of CNC mills and lathes. Stay away from the Shopsmith type tools, they do not do anything well, and the Jet type, combination shear, press brake, roller tools, they work , but again they do not do anything particularly well , and students will not encounter those in anything but a small home workshop.
Small CNC lathes and mills by Sherline are useful they teach basic CNC programming , however they do not have much capacity .
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

The crappier or more 'compromise' tools you buy (combo tools) the worse your lessons will be. The students will never know what is actually a problem with processes/tooling/metallurgy, and what is just the nature of a shitty machine. They need to know what professional grade machinery can do, which will never be imparted upon them if they use hobby grade machines.

Otherwise, I agree with the previous posters regarding small parts on manual machines. Having a Haas mill and/or lathe around for an overview of CNC programming and machining will be valuable, as well, I believe. Part of teaching them what machinists do is also dispelling myths. Learning what's involved in setting up and running a part will quickly educate them past the "make 3d model, push button on See-n-see machine, receive part" mentality.

This will put a lasting concept in their minds when it comes to DesignFor(x) and help them understand costs of processes.

I like the idea of adding some basic metal fab equipment, too, if it's in the budget.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Another star for racookpe, and a star for berkshire.

Dump most of the CNC stuff.
Keep the knee mills.
Get a shaper and a big vertical metalcutting bandsaw.
Get a shear, a box & pan brake, and a punch, all manually operated.
Maybe a slip roll, but it must be manually operated; powered ones are arm-eaters.

Teach them to use a drill, a hacksaw, and a file.
Teach them how to make a sheet metal box with a punch and a brake.

Forget the tiny desktop tools; they can't do anything useful,
will be broken immediately, and you can't get parts to fix them.

Forget the combo tools; as mentioned, they don't do anything well.
They are good at teaching how to organize your process,
but the lessons are hard; ask any ShopSmith owner.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Tygerdawg
You know an item not mentioned here is welding equipment. It would be good to get engineering students exposed to at least basic welding techniques.
The number of times I have been given a drawing to fabricate a part, where it is obvious that the Engineer who designed it did not have a clue how the part was going together, is without number.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

(OP)
Excellent input. I knew I would not be disappointed. thumbsup2

For the record, we are well set up for hand tools, hand power tools, measuring, brake & shear, sawing, heat treat, welding. We have two small IMMs, extruder, & polymer testing equipment, plus significant wood working. Robots, PLCs, and Instrumentation stuff. Quite an Engineer's playpen. Heck, we even have a 5-axis waterjet machine. What we don't have is fundamentals-focused equipment for the newbies right off the farm.

Many thanks for the recommendations & brand names. I'll look into it.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

I am sorry but I am going to get all the old timers fired up here. but I disagree with the manual machines. unless they will be working in a model shop. even then it's all CNC mills and lathes. and even more dual head stocks with live tools. the smithses small manual machines are a waste of money and time. get them up to date machines with real world training.

yes it is important to learn the basics. but employers want guys and gals with up to date training with today's technology.
most shops use cnc controls. have a couple of full size conventional mills, and a full size manual lathe. teach them the basics. then progress to CNC Controls. it takes a person a minimum of 5 years day in and out to learn it well.

and what is also important more than any thing learn to read precision inspection tools.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

tygerdawg,

I took a CNC course back in college. I still have the punched paper tapes for my big project. I was told that CNC was feasible for runs of ten to a hundred parts.

How stable is CNC technology nowadays? If it keeps changing, your students need to know CNC is out there, and that they must be open minded when the encounter the technology. If they any kind of seniority, it will have changed significantly.

This point is very much more true with rapid prototyping. Who knows what they will be doing five years from now.

I would stick with the fundamentals, and stay away from the bleeding edge technology.

Back in college, a partner and I did an exercise where we drilled holes in two pieces using a drill press and a vertical milling machine. He was an experienced machinist, and he insisted on doing the work. The scribe, centrepunch and drill press proved to be more accurate than the WWII surplus milling machine. In retrospect, it is too bad we did not repeat the experiment with me doing the work.

--
JHG

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Drawoh, Tygerdawg.
CNC is an ever shifting target, Not so much the basic M codes N codes and G codes, but the way you get the info in and out of the machine. Drawoh just mentioned paper tape technology , when I first started doing NC (Moog Hydrapoint), not CNC, that came later, the statement about getting maybe 100 parts was true, the tape had to run through the machine with every part, and the sprocket holes wore. CNC improved that by enabling the part to be downloaded into the memory of the machine, saving the wear and tear on the tape. There was also the problem of having to hand code all of the inputs, This is something students should be forced to do, so they can tell an error in a code when they see it. Later machines can generate code automatically by using the print codes generated by the Drafting program. The big changes now are the way information is fed to the said machines, and this is literally changing week by week. Jump drives seem to be the favored method, however I have one customer who still requests 5" floppies.
So a basic course in G code is still useful.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

I feel like the CNC topic is straying a bit toward focusing their time on making them into machinists/programmers. That seems to be opposite of the OP request. Teaching them what machinists do. Not teaching them to be one. That's a horse of a different color.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

No offense taken mfgenggear, but you simply cannot, cannot go wrong in learning the basic fundamentals on manual machines. CNC is very prevalent, and here to stay, but unless you work for Mega Corp Very Large Manufacturing Inc, you will likely encounter far more manual than CNC. Engineers most definitely do not need to be machinists, but a good, foundational cross section of understanding of the methods and processes is invaluable.

Sorry Mike Halloran, shapers became boat anchors decades ago. You will find the odd one here and there, but I'd bet a round of beers that not many people are still out there that can set up and run one. Last time I touched a shaper was in 1983, if memory serves.

Agree on the shopsmith and universal machines. They are generally garbage and a complete waste of money.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Agreed, a shaper is not a productive machine. ... but I think it can be a good vehicle for teaching the basics of machining, right out where you can see the chips curl up and fly.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

hahahahahahahaha good discussion. remember the the trade school apprenticeships. I went thru that. there needs to be more of that. you take turn in every dept. inspection, shop, engineering, and production control.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

At my first engineering job, I worked with a bunch of old timers who were graduates of Henry Ford's in-house trade school.

Their first assignment was to make a 'perfect' ball from a brass cube,
using nothing but a file and a micrometer.
Their grade was based on the size of the resulting ball.

Their second assignment was to do the same thing, starting with a steel cube.

Those guys knew their cutting tools.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

One more e-pinion for manual machines.

The goal in engineering school (as the OP stated) isn't to learn how to make a HAAS CNC crank out parts- the goal is to learn the theory of machining. It's extremely easy, in 2016, to use solidworks to create a part, dump it into code, clamp a block and go- but that teaches you nothing about climb vs. conventional milling, or the importance of fixture design, or cutting surface geometry, or the variables that effect surface finish, or any of the 10,000 other things that a good teacher can teach a willing student in a semester spent in front of a Bridgeport.

Manual all the way.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

One thing I learned many years ago after messing up a very expensive cutter, was to check the back lash on a Bridgeport before climb milling.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

LOL. My first experience of climb milling was unintentional, I just didn't know better until after it happened.

I was using a great big Parkson universal machine, a decent-size slab cutter of maybe 3" diameter x 6" wide which happened to be on the arbor, and machining a smallish workpiece clamped to the table. The workpiece turned into a projectile which took a lump out of the brick wall to the right to the machine. It scared the crap out of me and annoyed the metalwork tutor no end. Lesson learned about using good quality clamps and paying attention to where the cutting forces are directed - a good lesson because I haven't forgotten it decades later. smile

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

An important skill, IMO, is to be able to measure, mark and layout. Fostered far more by manual equipment than NC, and kind of leads to the concept of tolerances and the stackup thereof..

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

An important skill, IMO, is to be able to measure, mark and layout. Fostered far more by manual equipment than NC, and kind of leads to the concept of tolerances and the stackup thereof..

I would agree with this 100%.

It seems to me that GD&T, which is vital for anyone doing design work to understand as thoroughly as possible, is MUCH easier to grasp when you have actually taken a drawing, walked up to a mill, and had to think your way through how to hit the tolerances specified.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

some one else and I mention it also, it takes years and years and years of experience. 6 months will be a good start.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

(OP)
You guys are great. Very much appreciate your input & insight, this helps me refine my course of action. I want my curriculum to produce good, effective engineers.

OK, let's shift gears to QUESTION #2: The same topic posted on another forum received more excellent advice. IMHO one of the best responses outlines a shop/training/skills migration scheme of:
  • Freshman / Beginner level using small-ish sacrificial import-quality machines
  • Sophomore+/Intermediate level, moving to the better equipment
  • Junior+/Advanced with higher-end / CNC equipment
...which in theory provides a self-sustaining pool of "student lab assistants" to help with running the lab exercises (which I desperately need).

Any recommendations for brand names to investigate for beginners? There are so many out there, and they all seem to be from Taiwan & China. It's just not my area of expertise.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Do you really want imported, or are you better off with used heavy duty stuff that can take a licking...

I ask because a now former colleague did a lot of buying & selling machine equipment and didn't seem like there was a lack of the stuff.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Though the price may seem attractive, going with a bunch of Grizzly machines will leave you with buyers remorse after a short time. They will not take the beating students will inevitably unleash upon them. They're not the most rigid/sturdy machines for turning. If one of your students wanted to hop on a Grizzly lathe and turn a stainless steel gizmo, it'll be frustrating.

For a mill, I would get a Bridgeport knee mill. If you look in the area, you'll likely find used, good condition machines for a decent price simply because of market saturation. Some areas are better than others. They'll all have some manner of backlash - some worse than others. Given the university mission, you might find someone on "the other site" you asked this question who would help you out with getting used machines fixed up a bit.

For lathes, it's hard to beat old heavy iron, but again you're at the whim of the local market. Monarch, Hardinge, Emco, Handey, Leblond... Bridgeport has good lathes but they are much less common on the used market. A -heavier- model of South Bend may be good but it'll be a bit 'lesser' than the others. Depending on how much time you want to invest, it may be worth calling around to various shops in the area asking if they have something they'd be willing to let go. The company I work for now has given several machines to local tech schools over the years. No idea if they were sold or donated.

In general I don't know much about brand new machine brands for manual machines because in the professional realm, it's not a very common need I've run into.

For CNC machines in general, I believe HAAS is the best for your niche. They teach the principles and are user-friendly at the controller. Most CAM software already has a post that'll work for their machines. Students can still pop in a manually written g-code program or type it in at the machine. The only short comings / trade offs of HAAS machines are things you'll never have to worry too much about in your setting. They may not have the horsepower or long term rigidity or thermal control that other more expensive machines provide, but like I said... you're teaching beginners. HAAS is typically very friendly with educational institutions (or they used to be) as well.

I second @ornerynorsk in the statement regarding shapers. Your students will very likely never see one again after they leave the university shop. MikeHalloran has a point about seeing metal removal up close and personal, but I believe that's something that can be witnessed on a rigid, slow RPM cut on a manual lathe similarly. Shops that still have a shaper "from the old days" still find uses for it, from time to time, but I don't know of any shop that would go out of their way to buy one.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

If I were running this 'shop', I'd want to avoid having 30 machines from 5 different sources (or whatever the final makeup would be) all needing different maintenance schedules and parts. In other words, I wouldn't want to have one set of machines for newbies and one set of machines for non-newbies, strictly because of the increased number of parts and maintenance operations you'll need to track. I would definitely want to avoid micro-size mills. Tiny machines use tiny tooling, so they're going to break a lot of cutters. That will blow your budget up, even if you buy cheapo 'disposable quality' cutters.

My assumption is that the goal of buying smaller machines for new students is to limit their exposure to danger. You can accomplish that goal by careful selection of the projects they work on. Start new students out with projects cutting MDF or plastics, where cutting forces are low, and tool life is not affected too much by feed/speed mistakes. When they (or you) are more comfortable with their skills, they can run a machine they are already familiar with, on projects in free machining metals.

You also probably don't need 15 Bridgeport machines. How big are the parts you plan to have student make in classes? My guess would be not very. Something like the Baileigh VMD-40G for milling and PL-1022VS for turning might be in range. Those two machines are capable of any basic operation you'd want to demonstrate, small enough that you can pack many of them in whatever space is available, they run on 110 (which I view as a good thing in a student environment- limited power and damage potential is not a bad thing in this case). That little mill uses R8 tooling so it can share with your Bridgeports, and has low enough speeds that you can work metals without much trouble.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

Don't buy a Bridgeport lathe.
They were imported from Brazil, which by itself doesn't make them bad, but apparently no parts were ever imported.
So you can probably find one, for free, that needs just one part, but you will have to make the part.

Grizzly and similar tools are a bad idea as noted. They fall apart in normal use.

Don't buy a Bridgeport or clone mill that's been retrofitted with CNC (as opposed to just position readouts, which are handy). The problem is that, especially when cutting with coolant, they are a housekeeping problem, and there's no easy way to enclose them and drain off the coolant and chips.

i.e.,
If you're going to buy a CNC machine, buy one with a full enclosure, coolant sump, and chip conveyor.


Re Question 2:
Start with a ZERO-LEVEL class, where they learn to use a file and a hacksaw.






Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

I like Mike's 'zero level' class idea.

One of our tasks in high school class, aged 13 or 14 I think, was to cut and file a randomly-shaped offcut of mild steel into a near-perfect cube of given dimensions, probably 25mm or 1". It's not an easy exercise using only a saw and file, as anyone who has tried this themselves will attest. Anyone inept, brave or stupid enough to present an object with convex surfaces or sides of unequal length faced derision, swearing and public humiliation from 'Sir' - it was a great environment to learn in but not one in which to fall short of his expectations. I loved it.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

I started metalwork class at age 12 in the UK, Our shop tools were a Myford ML7 lathe , a power cut off saw of unknown origin that took standard 12" hacksaw blades. My teacher used to say , " You can cut faster than that saw, but it does not stop for a rest.", a blacksmiths forge, Anvil, bench drill press, Guillotine 10" hand shear. There were no table saws or band saws. all cutting other than the cut off saw was done by hand.
One of my very first projects was to make a hacksaw frame, this was cut from 5/8" x 1/8" bar stock with the bends in the frame forged around. the end brackets were forged ,then riveted to the frame , a piece of 3/8" round bar was forged square at one end to fit through the bracket, the other end was tapered to a rat tail to fit a wooden handle. the opposite fitting was upset to get a square section, then the round end was fitted in the lathe where a screw thread was cut on with a single point tool. The teacher later explained to us, that this could have been done with a threading die, but he wanted us to get the experience of calculating the threads per inch and making the cut with the lathe. The only supplied part was the wing nut for the tensioner. I gave that saw to my father who used it in his work for some 20 years.
I really missed that teacher when he left the school to open an engineering shop.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

And from a real machinist. Rather than worry about changing the machines, unless of course they are completely worn out.
I suggest, some very complicated prints / parts to make, and with out of this world tolerances, like +_ .0002 inch, and to make production runs of the parts, not just a one off type part. If your machines are in okay running condition invest the money in cutting tools and holders, like good boring heads and the proper inserts and that sort of thing.
If you really want to teach the process, then that is what is needed, maybe a nice cell system would be nice with multi pallets, and lots of material to make the production runs. Others suggest manual machines, well yeah if we were in the 60's that would be a great idea. Its not a machinist course its a how to do production deal, right? Then CNC is the way to go, also a CMM, comparator, surface plates for inspection, and one or two cell systems with horizontal machines. And again most importantly complicated parts with very close tolerance bores and also burnished bores, as well as some gun drilling operations. Include some extremely long extensions for wheel cutters that would cut grooves with in deep holes in the parts. I would suggest that the parts would include using both aluminum and very hard stainless steels. They will learn more about production with these items than trying to run manual machines. In real life they will likely never see a manual machine, some are very hard to come by now anyway. Its not a machinist course, for a machinist then sure manual machines can help. But for the younger generations that grew up pushing buttons the cnc will keep there interest, and is what is now used.
Any new machines need to be something other than Haas. Fanuc controls would be best, it is what is the most prevalent out there.

RE: Need Opinions: Academic Lab machine tool choices

And from a real machinist. Rather than worry about changing the machines, unless of course they are completely worn out.
I suggest, some very complicated prints / parts to make, and with out of this world tolerances, like +_ .0002 inch, and to make production runs of the parts, not just a one off type part. If your machines are in okay running condition invest the money in cutting tools and holders, like good boring heads and the proper inserts and that sort of thing.
If you really want to teach the process, then that is what is needed, maybe a nice cell system would be nice with multi pallets, and lots of material to make the production runs. Others suggest manual machines, well yeah if we were in the 60's that would be a great idea. Its not a machinist course its a how to do production deal, right? Then CNC is the way to go, also a CMM, comparator, surface plates for inspection, and one or two cell systems with horizontal machines. And again most importantly complicated parts with very close tolerance bores and also burnished bores, as well as some gun drilling operations. Include some extremely long extensions for wheel cutters that would cut grooves with in deep holes in the parts. I would suggest that the parts would include using both aluminum and very hard stainless steels. They will learn more about production with these items than trying to run manual machines. In real life they will likely never see a manual machine, some are very hard to come by now anyway. Its not a machinist course, for a machinist then sure manual machines can help. But for the younger generations that grew up pushing buttons the cnc will keep there interest, and is what is now used.
Any new machines need to be something other than Haas. Fanuc controls would be best, it is what is the most prevalent out there.


If the engineering program he is directing is anything like the one I passed through, he's attempting to teach the basics of how materials react to machining operations, not the theory of how to design a manufacturing line. There are specific (other) parts of the manufacturing and industrial programs for that.

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