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Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
I'm kind of curious about the level of difficulty of SmartPlant 3D. I'm not a designer, but I hear them talking about how difficult things are quite often. The latest thing I heard about is we were going to upgrade everyone to Office 2013 but the SP3D guys spoke up and said that have to use Office 2010 otherwise their SP3D reports get all goofed up. We've got one guy who has two computers because his SP3D workstation won't run email or something (I forget exactly). I'm always hearing tales of woe like this and stories of why they can't do this or that or how difficult something is going to be.

Is SP3D really that complicated and unwieldy? If so, what makes it such a desirable package? I run some pretty powerful FEA programs so I get with much power comes higher levels of complexity but I don't get why SP3D is so popular when you have to jump through all these hoops. I would be interested to hear other people's slant on SP3D.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

I've heard that two SP3D admins are needed for each piping designer/layout person. I'm only partly joking.

As I recall, many of these sophisticated "do-everything" plant design software packages are somewhat finicky (or maybe it's the support people who are resistant to change - that would be ironic) and opaque. But that's one aspect of complex software like this (as you allude to); finding out exactly why something isn't working can be very difficult.

Years ago PDS was the ne-plus ultra software that everyone wanted to learn and get paid lots of money to work with. Perhaps I'm dense or something but after getting a quick walk-through of it once it didn't seem much different from Autoplant or other 3D piping software.

I don't know how much feedback from knowledgeable SP3D people you'll get here amongst the engineers.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

I've hasd the course with all my collegaes, now five years later we're still not working with it,
and we spoiled a gigantical lot of hours.
The company had a fantastic application called Plantview,
and replaced it by SP3D and it had cost the company millions..
Now we're working with pencil again (like 15 years ago) smile .

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
Europipe, are you sure we're talking about the same thing? I googled Plantview and found a program by AspenTech called "Plant View" that enables you to view plant data and compare it to simulations, not layout piping, equipment, and structures. Is that the program that you replaced with SP3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

No, it was a program what was followed by PDMS.
I think PDMS is a lot better than SP3D.
Yes, I googled too, but aspentech got nothing to do with it.
I didn't replace anything, the big company did.
Maybe there are more designers here that also work for that big company?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Gator, no, Plantview was the precursor of PDMS.
Dow collegeas will know.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Ahh, OK. It looks like PlantView is/was a viewing/visualization/review program for Aveva's (which used to be called Cadcentre*) PDMS with similar functions to, say, NavisWorks or SmartPlant Review. Being able to perform real-time facility walkthroughs might be the best quick way to convey what these programs do.

I don't see how it was a "precursor" to PDMS, though.

* In the 3D plant design software world you often can't tell the players without a scorecard.

Here are some paragraphs written a few years ago by a friend of mine:




RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Gator, because it stopped approxx. 6 years ogo, while it didn't work under windows anymore.
Don't know why there is no information on the internet, maybe other Dow Chemical engineers can react here?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

We spent a large amount of time and money on moving to a 3D piping package and in the end had to write of the whole thing off. Lost our biggest client in the process too.

You must go into these things with your eyes open. Talk to other users in your industry. These packages do not suite everyone.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Some people think a person can work with a computerprogram,
that he is an expert in piping also, I've seen that fault too much.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
Gator, thanks for the history write-up from your friend. That is interesting. Europipe, I think the problem with programs like SP3D is you have to be a pipe designer AND a computer expert. Not a lot of those around.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

These 'do-all' 3D design systems are great when properly set up and operated, but the biggest issues are the up-front and operating costs which restrict them to pretty much the biggest projects and large engineering companies. Sometimes I suspect that the companies that make the software aim to become EPC firms themselves.

"I think the problem with programs like SP3D is you have to be a pipe designer AND a computer expert."

The current trend is of course building the "knowledge" into the software and having less-experienced people do the piping routing.

I have some other documents that I should, uh, 'sanitize' and upload into this thread for some further insight into.

And there's this:

http://www.bicmagazine.com/departments/engineering...

as well as this:

http://www.bicmagazine.com/departments/engineering...

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

dozer, maybe you are right about the computerexpert, but like Gator sais, this in't the way.
I worked with Plantview, autocad 3D-Autopipe, PDMS and that went well, why shouldn't SP3D work that way?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Found this in my files, it is from a few years ago and I can't vouch for its veracity:

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Here's some writing on piping/plant design software that may be of interest from a chapter called 'CAD, Task Automation and the Plant Design Process' that didn't make it into the book (but may be included in some form in the second edition if we ever get around to it):


RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
What book? Who is "we"? You've piqued my curiosity.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

I don't necessarily think that the software discussed is "complicated." What may be "complicated" is the source code and maintenance thereof. While Microsoft can migrate and change its Office suite willy-nilly with few problems, smaller companies that supply engineering software are in a different boat. My math program of choice is Mathcad, which I've used since Mathcad 3.1 on DOS. Mathsoft, the originator, was always a small company, and over the years, they were able to patch and paste additional functionalities and keep up with ALL the changes in DOS and Windows, but by the 2002 M11 timeframe, there were gobs of legacy code and tons of unfixable problems. So, on version 12, they made a massive code re-write that was quite disastrous, and it took until M15 to rein in all the things that broke. PTC purchased Mathsoft somewhere in the v13 timeframe, and they decided to do a massive re-write as well after M15, which became Mathcad Prime 1. They didn't break much, but that was because they did babysteps, and there's no expectation that even MP4 will have all the functionality that M15 had back in 2011.

Large codebases suffer from a number of potential issues that can make life miserable for users:
> spaghetti code - difficult to maintain, and even more difficult to re-write
> hard coded parameters - little time bombs waiting for for some unsuspecting user to trip over them
> small user base - insufficient usage "churn" to pick up on problems
> low margins/volume - insufficient cash flow to pay for massive changes

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
Hi IRstuff. Are you suggesting that Intergraph is a small company? wink I remember the Mathcad v. 12 debacle. To this day I don't advocate updating Mathcad as long as what we have is working. Probably unfair of me but they used up all their good will with me back then and have never earned it back. But I digress. Don't want to derail my own thread.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

But, even Intergraph started small, so it's not impossible that there are gobs of legacy code floating around in the bowels. Moreover, as with PTC buying Mathsoft, Intergraph probably also grew by acquisition, so it's equally unclear whether the additions have clean code.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Hi All,

Im currenty working as Sp3d Admin,
is Sp3d is complicated.?,

Ans : Yes and No.

The "No" Part:
-------------
For the users, its easy, in 2 weeks training with background in AutoCad/or Any Cad system,
then you can immediately do 3D models, and there is "undo" feature which is not present in PDS system

The "Yes" its Complicated:
---------------------------
For the Administrator,

(for routine activities)
1.) You must have background in SQL Server / Oracle Administration,
Creating SQL Queries by hand, for Special Report requirements.
2.) Advance MS Excel user, knows VBA , this is to have some automation is Excel Sheets
as Sp3d Catalogs and Specs are all in Excel
3.) Must have a good command of Batch programming (creating batch automation, file transfers, archiving etc)
4.) Maintain SmartPlant Review Extraction(SPR), model Color Filter and grouping , etc
5.) Create Backups, usually automated, but you have to archive and transfer the files to have physical redundant backups.
5.) Must have background in Windows Administration, Folder rights permission settings
6.) OS user management, Group creation/membership maintenance
7.) Group Policy Administration and settings, for auto project selection and other things when user transfer to another Sp3d project
8.) License management of workstation, if you don't Windows Administration Background then you to do this manually for each machines.!
9.) Isometric settings
10.) General Arrangement(GA) drawing production
11.) Special Support 2D Drawings production
12.) Reference Model settings("XREF" of 2D dwg drawings to SP3D),
13.) Project Restore and trouble shooting

(for Catalog maintenance)
1.) Must have training in Pipe Specs, Excel Sheets Data Relationships
2.) Sometimes this is done by another group which they use MARIAN or SmartPlant Reference Data
3.) But for simple changes you have basic know-how where to find a specific excel sheet/workbook for minor edits.

SP3D store all its data and graphics in a database, its has its own Graphics Engine,
(unlike PDS where it needs MicroStation for the Graphics.)
(this technology is similar to PDMS, all data in DB also, but PDMS uses its own DB format not SQLSERVER or ORACLE)

For the Office 2013/2010 part:
If you are using SP3d version 2014R1, you have to use Office 2010 "32bit" not "64bit", SP3D uses "32bit" techonology
But recently with Hotfix24 and up, Office 2013 32bit is now supported

(registration needed to access)
(https://smartsupport.intergraph.com/app/answers/de...),

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?


RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
After reading Gator's various excerpts from the book lemurfromearth's post, it's pretty clear to me that SP3D is really for large company's with large projects. I suspect that many companies vastly underestimate the technical expertise required to implement and maintain SP3D. Case in point. I noticed in the matrix above that structural detail drawings is checked for SP3D yet my company decided it couldn't be done and bought a very expensive steel detailing program to supplement SP3D. Could it really not be done or was it just too complicated to figure out?

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

I'd like to know how much it would cost for a single seat (fully-equipped for piping and equipment) of SP3D. The few times I've asked this question the answer has been "It depends" (I understand why, but some kind of ballpark figure would be useful).

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

Hi All,

Here's the current SP3D cost:
Per month for 1 License :

SP3D = 2,200 USD each
SPR(SmartPlant Review) = 560 USD each


RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
How do they get away with charging that much for SmartPlant Review? It's a viewer for goodness sake! That's what I would have guessed for a perpetual license, maybe $1000.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

dozer, probably that SmartPlant Review license is tied to accessing a database connected to a larger project or something. Some viewer programs are actually free, but for graphics only.

RE: Just how complicated is SmartPlant 3D?

(OP)
Nope, SPR is not tied to a live model. The SP3D modeler has to generate a .VUE file so that SPR can see it. In other words, it's a snapshot in time. What a stupid a$$ way to do it. At a previous job I had, they used PDMS. Us engineers could use it in some kind of read only mode so we had access to the live model. Or at least as live as it could be with multiple people working on it given that you had to "check in" your changes every once in awhile.

If I were controlling the purse strings, I wouldn't pay that much for it, but whatever the market will bear, right?

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