what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
(OP)
I can't figure out the best connection to do this.
if the timber pile was square, I could have used seat angle at the bottom of the beam.
but I prefer to use the more common round timber pile.
is there a round seat angle?
I could also install anchor bolts on top of the pile and bottom flange of the beam?
if the timber pile was square, I could have used seat angle at the bottom of the beam.
but I prefer to use the more common round timber pile.
is there a round seat angle?
I could also install anchor bolts on top of the pile and bottom flange of the beam?






RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Or, notch 2 sides and box the pile with heavy timbers and thru bolting to form a 4-sided haunch.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I got the notch on the seat beam side, the thru bolts will end on the other side with round surface. can nut and washer be installed on the other side?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Eh, can't win 'em all. In all honesty, I've never encountered such a condition in the real world personally.
Wha? How? The only pin in the system is the beam to beam connection. And even that's debatable in practical terms with the double angles.
Yeah, we all are. However, it's really just a nominal tie-down for uplift. Any side face connection will suffer the adverse effects of swelling in the pile.
So far, I think that my detail comes out on top in terms of:
1) Constructabilty.
2) Tolerance provision.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
However, the details being proposed here don't rely on the lag screws, which is an advantage.
DaveAtkins
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
The angle detail doesn't look too bad, but use a deeper angle so you have some edge distance.
Is your pile that big at the top? can you notch the sides of the beam as opposed to the front and rear?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
There's bound to be some form of lateral load in the plane of the floor beams, granted your stub columns aren't very long, but they're like short stilts. I'll admit the instability feeling comes from me not trusting the lags to have any capacity (at least any appreciable capacity).
I would do Dave's detail with the two channels on either side of the pile, but instead of lags screws, they'd be threaded rod thru-bolts with nuts on each end. You could provide blocking or flange plates at some spacing to ensure the two channels acted as one. But that to me is much more positive of a connection.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I remain undeterred.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Ba Humbug! There's stability there in spades, even if the lag connection turns out to be a pin. If you don't trust the double angles as nominal moment connections, run with a single plate shear connection with nominal moment capacity.
This is appealing to me as well. I imagine that this would be taking us into beam over beam territory rather than beam into side of beam. If it could be made to work, it might be sexy to pack the double channels with timber in between as you suggested and then frame over top with timber fastened down to the packing stuff.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Seems a better solution is a round cap enveloping the round timber post, a flat plate on that round cap that supports a short vertical steel member, then the steel beams connecting to the vertical steel as in conventional bolt+hole plates.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
How about making a pile cap with two plates in a T and knifing one into the pile with throughbolts. I've seen similar connections with round glulams.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
My thoughts exactly. Sorry KootK :>
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
1) Are lag bolts inappropriate in wet service?
2) Is end grain deficiency not simply addressed by applying the appropriate end grain capacity adjust meant factor?
Teach a KootK to fish damn it.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Anyway, I kind of like KootK's sketch--you are not totally counting on the lag screws to support the load. There is a ledge below each channel, for redundancy.
And yes--you need to consider edge distance, spacing, wet service, etc. for the connection design.
DaveAtkins
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
DaveAtkins
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I generally avoid end grain dowel connections too. But, then it's usually somebody trying to stick a 1/2" lag in the end of a 2X. Here, I was imagining a long, large diameter galvanized lag in the clean cut end of a big old log. It doesn't generate the same negative visceral reaction in me for some reason. I'll try to imagine the piling 50 years in the future with checks and fungus growing from the top.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Yeah, I'm liking that scheme more and more too. I'd like to see it done with the framing in steel in one direction however (wood in the other). The main thing that was informing my earlier, flawed detail was the ability to accommodate tolerances in the location of the piles. With steel in both directions, and likely a desire to avoid field welding, a lot of the details that have both directions of the steel framing in the same plane would be problematic I wold think.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
bolting through the sides with notched seats will allow the most compromised area to be lower in the wood and will allow more wood to protect the connection. The bolts will bend, they will slide but they will hold up.
I work with a few 'attraction' owners, we have completely disallowed lag screws from being used on any of our projects... I have seen the effects of the connection in 5,10,20,30 years of service each time i look at their older buildings... So i may be biased due to what i have seen in a short period working with them.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
That's gracious of you to say Eric. I've been tracking and I seem to be seriously wrong about something here about quarterly. You know: PT, obscure code provisions... statics. And I concede that I've been wrongheaded here. I'm just glad that I got my schooling via this venue rather than by way of a botched project.
Is it accurate to paraphrase your observations as follows:
1) no top side bearing solution should be employed because of the rot issues at the end of the pile and;
2) you don't advocate using lag bolts in any capacity in this context, even side grain?
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
When a concrete manhole riser ring shrinks, does the opening get bigger?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
TTFN
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RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
1) Top side is not horrible IMHO. I would prefer a seated edge connection as you nearly sketched for stability, but a top seated connection is not anything i shy away from... It is actually a common connection when using post caps, or other exterior light framed connections (only when they are not laterally loaded because we need additional connection capacity)
2) I would advocate the use of a through bolt over a lag screw in all applications. The way i look at it, a through bolt is just more effective and has more longevity, it is close in cost and takes as long to install.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
For 12" pile butt, use 18" sq plate x 1/2". Bars usually 3x3/8" with 3/4" bolts.
Shims can be placed between plate and steel & welded to make up for accuracy of chainsaw cut on pile.
We treated top of pile with hot creosote cover with asphalt roofing nailed down around sides of pile. Bolt holes were treated with hot creosote applied with a bent funnel. (Creosote not so popular now a days!)
Don't use lags in exposed wood connections - they loosen.
RE: what is the best connection for this? round timber pile to steel beam?
Yep. We work a lot around the logging industry and have done a lot of work on wood pile supported: lumber mills, logging and rail bridges and docks and that detail is the one most used. Not pretty, but hard for the average millwright to screw up. In the environments we are working in; pretty is not usually considered an issue.
If the pile alignment is ok then a full length (over the entire pile bent) single bent plate or sometimes a channel with the 3/8" plate straps is used. Steel shims as necessary. The straps are just welded on the outside of the channel.