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comment about dressing code
20

comment about dressing code

comment about dressing code

(OP)
Hi,

I know that companies have a dressing code and yes it is policy / HR rules have requirement related to it.
I wear casual at work. I work as engineer with more than a decade in business and none has ever commented on the way I dress.

Recently Manager said: Tomorrow we are going to visit a client, so you wear less casual (understand formal).

- Is the value of an engineer in the way he/she looks ?
- Am I not "senior" enough to be able to judge when to dress casual and when to be formal by myself (considering type of meeting, client, etc..)?

Again and again it's a lost cause: companies have policies and it is enforceable;

But really this sends totally wrong signals; I feel disappointed that the focus has now shifted to the way of dressing.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

RE: comment about dressing code

After a decade, you surely have learned that appearances do actually count, no matter how much we know they don't.

You're going to see a client. You know, those pesky folks who keep writing you checks. People get sensitive about appearances when they're giving you money.

RE: comment about dressing code

It is not unreasonable to dress according to the environment. In my opinion office environments are Business Casual as a minimum. In a shop or field environment it is reasonable to be in jeans or respectable work clothing. I do not like seeing colleagues with untucked shirts, tee shirts, inappropriate footwear, etc...

My experience is, engineering is not paying the level to expect 3 piece suits and the like, if that is the expectation, I would have issue, but additional compensation could alter my perspective. Putting on a tie now and then, or wearing a sport coat with a shirt and slacks to match is not unreasonable in my opinion.

Engineering is very diverse. I am sure that if wearing jeans or whatever you please, is important to you, a place can be found to accommodate. If your employer is looking for you to help develop and maintain business, which is a natural progression for many, a golf shirt may not present the image they are looking for.

RE: comment about dressing code

Another thing is haircuts and beards. It usually is the older client's personal that pay the bills. Like me, they may take a negative view of someone with three day growth of whiskers as indicative of a lazy person, perhaps careless in his work, as an example of what may affect things. Younger folks may not care, but they don't pay the bills.

RE: comment about dressing code

(1)- Is the value of an engineer in the way he/she looks ?

Not really, but part of the perceived value may be. As Tick says we get judged a lot on how we look - much of it subconsciously.

(2)- Am I not "senior" enough to be able to judge when to dress casual and when to be formal by myself (considering type of meeting, client, etc..)?

Based on the fact you asked question (1) then I'm going to say maybe you aren't 'senior' enough to make that judgement. Apologies if there is a language barrier between us that makes me seem harsh.



As to beards OFG, guilty as charged on letting the stubble accumulate, various reasons but part of it is if I'm stuck working >40 hrs a week then some of that extra time comes out of my 'grooming time'. When I have a project meeting or some such with senior folks etc. I make sure to tidy up but that's about it.

As to it being indicative of a lazy careless person, in my case I certainly don't think I'm guilty of either of those - but that call may be in the eye of the beholder.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: comment about dressing code

3
Early in my career I wore a suit and tie to the office every day I was in the office. In the field I wore steel toed boots and fire-retardant clothing (and safety glasses, etc.). It was horses for courses and I was really careful to play that game.

About 5 years in, my boss' boss came to work without a tie. Jokingly I asked if this was the new dress code. He said "The only thing a necktie does is restrict blood flow to your brain and you can't afford it". I never knew if he was complementing me or slamming me (it could easily go either way). That was 31 years ago and I've never once worn a necktie to work again after that. A few years after the "blood flow" comment I was presenting to a bunch of EVP's at our Chicago office and wore a nice shirt and slacks and good shoes, but no coat or tie. Not a single eye was raised and the meeting focused on the information I was presenting (and they approved my project even though they were in coats and ties and I wasn't). That just reinforced my commitment to maximizing blood flow to my brain.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
Quoted
Based on the fact you asked question (1) then I'm going to say maybe you aren't 'senior' enough to make that judgement. Apologies if there is a language barrier between us that makes me seem harsh.
Unquoted
KENAT, you do not need to apologize. The question (1) was meant to trigger a larger discussion on the point that appearance seems increasingly important with people nowadays assessing the value of someone, engineer in particular, based on clothing (a suit can be very expensive but it has real value close to zero). The value is in the contribution, period. Yes, there are some rules of decency, ok sorry good looking, but this should be pretty much it.

You may like it or not, I have been senior enough to know when to dress adequately according to circumstances so none has ever complained until now when I come to realize I seem to be working with a Senior Manager who is childish. Irritating and an energy drainer.

Your words are harsh as matter of fact not because language barrier would make them appear so.

RE: comment about dressing code

rotw, I suggest that you take the manager's comments as constructive criticism. You appear to have become too "comfortable" in your job. When you are at work you represent your company and the "impression" you make on others is a valid concern of company managers. You hurt yourself by not listening. It was probably not easy for this person to say this to you.

About two years after college I wore a collarless shirt to work as a process engineer at a chemical plant. My boss told me not to do it again. I was embarrassed and a little angry but got over it. If there are not any standards then some will push things to the limit. I am much more in favor of informal standards than written ones, but these days, unless it is written, it tends to be unenforceable. I agree that logically the way you dress does not affect the quality of your work, but human relations are far from logical. They way you dress has a very large impact on how you are perceived by others. As a private citizen you can dress as you please, but at work you can be expected to dress for the part you are paid to play.

RE: comment about dressing code

"- Is the value of an engineer in the way he/she looks?"

The value is not, but you have to get through the door first. It's not that different than finding out that attractive, taller, people get better jobs and salaries. The human brain is a frontal cortex wrapped around a reptilian brain. We have dozens of subconscious events occurring without our knowledge that are anathema to the frontal cortex. That's why we vigorously deny looking at cleavage (other reasons as well), but that subconscious scoping out potential mates and mothers to our children is a strong urge.

However, we do rationalize some of this. Someone in a suit and tie looks "professional," and at the minimum, puts in effort in dressing up that you hope carries through to their technical work and output. Let's not forget that for most people, "perception is reality."

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: comment about dressing code

When you're a young to mid level, you ought to appear within the boundaries established by your management.

An older, established engineer with an known, appropriate reputation, could get away with a rogue look (i.e. a mad professor) and he might have to be some hotshot.

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my OLD subtlety...
for a NUance!tongue

RE: comment about dressing code

It's a gesture of respect. It's the correct message to send to a prospective client: I care enough about you that I shaved and put on some nice clothes.

I usually keep a razor, a shirt and a tie on the hook on the back of my door in the office in the event I need to show the gesture in the next 20 minutes...

Otherwise, if I'm in for a day of crunching numbers or writing reports or filling out data sheets or Line Lists or drawing P&IDs or whatever else I'm up to on that day: stubble is frequent, ties are absent, and it's business-casual.

RE: comment about dressing code

Or as one of the rules of spaceship design has it, a bad idea, well presented, lives to fight another day. Can you imagine any serious reason NOT to put your best foot forward when meeting a client?

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: comment about dressing code

Play to your audience.

Over the years I've ruined some nicer clothes.....my mistake; however, I cannot let the way I'm dressed impede my engineering obligations. I remember that in the late 70's/early 80's men's shoes with higher heels were popular. I was called out to a jobsite to check a welding issue during steel erection. Well, of course the problem required me to walk "red iron" to look at the issue! Did it (foolishly) but always carried boots in my truck after that.

I usually wear jeans and a plaid shirt these days. For depositions, a blazer, a tie if videotaped, and nice shirt/slacks. For court, I wear suits.

Use common sense even if it pisses off HR

RE: comment about dressing code

Personally, I'm amused by the 60's era architects that wear expensive silk suits with a man-bun.

RE: comment about dressing code

4
I wear jeans and a shirt with a collar to work every day. That way, when I need to kneel on our manufacturing floor or crawl over something covered in welding and grinding dust to see what one of the fitters is trying to show me, I don't have to give it a 2nd thought. Our manufacturing staff can choose to wear a (provided) company uniform so they don't get their personal clothes dirty or damaged, but we don't provide a uniform to our professional staff. Putting people in boiler suits merely to protect pretty clothing that you insist or imply that they should wear, isn't really a practical option if you actually care about people's comfort and productivity and job satisfaction while they're working.

I went straight from work to some of our engineering advocacy body board meetings. In addition to electing me, the membership in its wisdom had also elected the usual collection of engineering managers and upper management that you see on the boards and councils of these sorts of bodies, men and women, who of course showed up from their jobs in their pretty suits. On occasion I'd get a snide, "You wore that to work?" comment, to which I replied that the best way to discredit yourself with a client in our business was to show up in a suit.

I've never had trouble with clients failing to take me seriously because of the way I dress. And the fact that I haven't been burdened with the bother, cost and indignity of pretending to be someone other than who I really am merely to earn a living has, to me, likely been worth several years of extra longevity.

RE: comment about dressing code

We have to wear casual/nice.
Lately I wear sweat pants and a polo shirt. I broke my thumb and have a cast, so can't do buttons.
Mngmt understands. I depends on the company and environment.

Chris, CSWP
SolidWorks '16
ctophers home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: comment about dressing code

Never wear a tie, usually have a beard. Slacks/polo or button up. Steel toes for the shop, and watch where you kneel.

I may be guilty of using the negotiating tactic of showing up to work one day clean shaven, in nicer than usual clothes, and then telling my manager I had to take the afternoon off for an "appointment" (job interview.)

RE: comment about dressing code

rotw,

I'm going to guess that you didn't show up in jeans and a t-shirt for your interview at the company you now work for.

It's for that same reason that you dress less casual when you visit a client.

RE: comment about dressing code

I work from my house so I wear whatever I want when I'm in the office. When I'm meeting a client or doing an investigation, I ALWAYS wear a shirt or jacket with my company logo on it. I had a set of coveralls embroidered with my logo as well, so I don't mess up the nice clothes when the crawlspace really means crawling. I keep the coveralls, boots, hardhat, gloves, kneepads, etc in a bag in my car so it's always ready.

It's tricky for women to find the appropriate balance. When I worked for larger companies, I couldn't wear skirts because I might be at a site visit later, but I couldn't look scrubby either. My standard was khakis or nice corduroys, a blouse or long-sleeve Tshirt of good quality, and a necklace. The only time anyone fussed at me was when I had on my warm jacket/sweater and they didn't think it was professional enough, but my response was to buy me a heater or shut up. That fixed it.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

RE: comment about dressing code

I wouldn't discount the outside chance that it is passive-aggressive gaslighting by the manager. People who lack substance often use such tactics to gain control over others they feel the need to control.

RE: comment about dressing code

I remember working with this one engineer onsite on a project during install/commissioning and he was in his nicer business casual. This guy would not get dirty and would walk miles to get an electrician to turn a screw. He was quite entertaining to watch him. Of course I was in jeans and tee shirt and brought some tools if needed.

RE: comment about dressing code

I work in a very relaxed office atmosphere. Many engineers come into work in jeans and a polo.

But if you have a meeting with anyone outside the org you are expected to dress up a bit.

It's totally normal. You do your best to present a good face to clients and other companies. Even though it says nothing about your abilities, it does say something about your professionalism.

RE: comment about dressing code

2
When I got my first job in engineering (50 years ago this coming June) working as a draftsman between my first and second year of school, while there was no formal dress code, there was a sort of 'social dress code'. What I mean, at least with respect to the drawing office, was that what you wore depended on what your place in the organization was.

For example, draftsmen and other office workers dressed casual, although by today's standards it would be considered as almost formal. That is, they generally wore white shirts and ties, mostly bow ties, as shown below in a shot of some of my old co-workers playing cards during a lunch break:



Now when it came to the next level up, that is supervisors (at least in our office), most of them wore more colorful shirts but also almost always neckties, like the two guys shown below:




Now as for actual degreed engineers and managers, they tended to wear suits or at least sports coats but always with a neck tie (which BTW, were clip-ons since we often had to go to the shop where there was always a lot of rotating machinery).

This is what I meant by a 'social dress code' in that it was sort of a way to know who was who in the office and what their role in the organization was, not like when I was at MDC and we all had color-coded badges (you were always very careful what you said when you found yourself in an elevator with a couple of 'Gold Badges'). Now remember this was back in the 60's and 70's and it was Michigan which was NOT as casual in general as you might have seen on the Left Coast, even back then.

Now there was one kind of ironic situation. As many people have said, that since you might have to be dealing with customers you really should dress with a little more concern for having a professional appearance. Well for the nine years that I spent working as a machine designer (after I had graduated) except for a few trade shows and customers visiting our office, the vast majority of the time that I, and many of our engineers, were interfacing with customers was when we were in the field helping to install and/or upgrade equipment that we had sold to them (we designed and manufactured capital machinery for the food and chemical processing industries). Then we wore our 'greens' (with the company name on the back and our first name embroidered over the pocket), plus hard hats and steel-toed shoes.

Now all that changed in 1980 when I left that, my first engineering job, and moved to California and joined McAuto, the computer software/services devision of the McDonnell Douglas Corp. Basically I moved into a job in sales. Granted, I was still considered a professional as I was providing engineering consulting services to our pre- and post-sales organization but since we were constantly working with customers we dressed professionally, that is, suit and ties EVERYDAY. Even 8 years later when I moved from sales to R&D since my role still involved at lot of face time with customers and higher management of our company, I continued to wear suit and tie, although I did start to wear sports coats once in a while, but MDC was still a fairly button-down company.

Then in 1991 our division was sold to EDS and that's when we really learned what the dress code meant. Up until then, while it was often unwritten, wherever I had worked or in what role I was playing, we all understood what was expected of us when it came to dress while on the job. But with EDS, it was all written down in BLACK & WHITE. And it was detailed.

To start with, NO facial hair (now those of us who were part of an acquisition, if we already had a well trimmed beard or mustashe we were allowed to keep it, but if we ever shaved it off, you could NOT grow it back). Men had to wear suits and women dresses, skirt and blouse or a business 'suit'.

Now for the men, this meant an actual suit, not a sports coat. The coat and pants had to match, and only real neckties (no clip-ons or bow ties). White shirt with bottom-down collars and shoes with laces (no slips-ons or loafers). And the suits had to be dark, either black or dark gray, or navy blue and it seemed that only executives opted for pin-stripes. Now remember this was all based on the original rules set-down by Ross Perot when he had started to company years before. Now over time these rules were relaxed to some degree. Women were allowed to wear slacks and men could move to sports coats and for people not in regular contact with customers, such as programmers and purely office workers, the whole suit and tie things was dropped in favor of normal casual office attire; polo shirts and casual pants (bluejeans and shorts were still verboten).

Now for the last few years, even the wearing of ties by managers and professionals have gone by the wayside, with direct-sales personnel probably being the only real exception (of course we've been away form EDS for years now). For the last several years or so, before I retired in January, I hadn't worn a tie except when visiting customers and even then usually only when I was in Europe or Asia. Places like Australia and South America was much less formal and so the rule sort of became, dress the way we expect our customers to dress, which I guess is probably a good rule of thumb.

If you dress like the people that you're interfacing with (and I mean really interfacing with, as in 'face-to-face') you generally will not be seen as having committed a 'dress code' faux pas.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: comment about dressing code

The way you present yourself as an agent of a company has little to do with your personal value or skill, and everything to do with the client's perceived value of you and your company.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)

Quote (TheTick)

I wouldn't discount the outside chance that it is passive-aggressive gaslighting by the manager. People who lack substance often use such tactics to gain control over others they feel the need to control.
spot on

Quote (JohnRBaker )

If you dress like the people that you're interfacing with (and I mean really interfacing with, as in 'face-to-face') you generally will not be seen as having committed a 'dress code' faux pas.
Exactly.

I went to the famous meeting, no jean just dressed ok, no tie, no suit. In front of me, on the other side, engineers half wearing jeans, also managers with tie and without. I found the situation completely normal. I thought then about the manager who lectured me the day: Ridiculous.

Now lets make things more extreme (this thread is going bust anyhow..:) ): Manager is PhD!! the tie, sorry, the apple did not fall very far from the tree...

RE: comment about dressing code

during my first year as an engineer in training, I went out and bought a nice three piece suit and tie. The first time I wore it, I accompanied a project manager to a meeting with a client. In the car, the manager mentioned that I was dressed for a funeral. I never wore the suit again. It doesn't fit me any more. Since then I have been careful to both dress for success and according to my position in the office or my position in the meeting. Never want to make my boss or my client look worse than I do. And never want to show up on the job site with a tie on. But a shower and shave is generally recommended for everybody...

RE: comment about dressing code

"I went to the famous meeting, no jean just dressed ok, no tie, no suit. In front of me, on the other side, engineers half wearing jeans, also managers with tie and without. I found the situation completely normal. I thought then about the manager who lectured me the day: Ridiculous."

Well, that's just sad. What YOUR customer wears to a meeting is irrelevant, unless they specifically tell what you should wear. Would you have gone in that meeting wearing t-shirt and flip-flops? If you had gone to "the famous meeting" and ALL the customers were wearing suits, would you still think "Ridiculous?"

If you answered no to the t-shirt, why are t-shirts and sandals off limits?

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
IRStuff
I will just skip your comment.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
cvg,
yes and what you wrote seems to me a reasonable balance. When you say: "Never want to make my boss or my client look worse than I do." Think this is fair enough.

When I started my career in a big company (+400 000 employees) I went the first day of a technical training with a suit and a tie. The engineer (technical guru) who was giving the training did not make any comment; on Day 3 we exchanged some jokes... Ice was sort of broken. The engineer came to me during the break and found an excuse to talk about dress code ..and told me that "here" engineers do not wear tie etc. (no brain do). Made me fee part of the family! Day 4 till day N went to work always in jean. Worked hard like hell. Performance was exceptional.
When in doubt with certain type of client (bureaucratic/state owned companies) I wear a bit formal to be on safe side (to quite formal in rare occasions). Lean towards jean and shirt when possible otherwise. Never been offended by my "brothers" at that time with stupid "dress code" reminders, or worse: been lectured. But ridiculous Manager did lecture me.

RE: comment about dressing code

This sounds to me like you were more offended by a manager telling you what to wear rather than a particular dress code for engineers.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
DVWE,
You are doing your utmost at work to deliver results and then you get this attitude by Manager - how smart is that?
Yes I found it offending and I take it personal. And again these "non-issues" are draining your energy (lets not make it too big but hey...at some point its business performance that you hit with such energy drainers).

Lets even say (admit) my dress code is slightly my "weak spot", ok but then so what ?
What end result has Manager achieved here ?

Someone could say: try not to be oversensitive...take a deep / long breath...go for a walk. Yes agree but remains that this management attitude is irritating.

Its about managing outcome and benefits. Refer my 1st post: inherent value of the guy is established, guy is old enough to exercise his/her own judgment, stop this circus.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
Yes I learned from him to focus on essential matters and that bullying other people (who by the way are not at fault) by reminding the obvious is not a great managerial skill. Not bad as education ;)

Or maybe you are trying to say Managers should not educate themselves and learn to communicate with tact ?

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
Oh it's not a maybe it is a certainty: some subordinates have exceptionally thin skins, surprisingly those are the same who would always bend (forward) and say yes. Does this remind you of someone ? I don't mean take a look to a mirror. Don't get me wrong.
Don't like my posts? sorry you are free of your opinion, but lets just stick to the rules of courtesy.

RE: comment about dressing code

Geez,
So what. The boss says to dress up a little for a presentation/customer?
So do it.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
ok I give up :)

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
by the way:
John R. Baker thank for taking the time to elaborate on the subject and this background.
It is very informative indeed and most appreciated.

RE: comment about dressing code

Aside from the petty venting, the real winner here is John R Baker. Very interesting post. Thanks.

RE: comment about dressing code

moltenmetal's post was a good one, too.

I'm a nuts and bolts field service guy who happens to carry a laptop rather than a tool box. Jeans and collared button-down shirt and steel-toe footwear and safety glasses. Hard hat with company logo and a spiffy orange vest are in the car in case I need them. Everyone I interact with does pretty much the same. Works for me. Only time I wear suits are for weddings and funerals.

I couldn't stand wearing a suit and tie every day; perhaps that's why I don't work at a place like that.

Ties don't play nice with moving machinery, and white shirts don't play nice with welding sparks and dust.

RE: comment about dressing code

Can relate to many of the comments from above. I started work in the early '70's and had to wear suits or sport coats, etc. every day. Totally out of character for me. Bought two Nehru suits so I could get away without a tie 1 or 2 days per week.

As a native of MI's UP dressing up was never part of the culture. Old joke: How can you tell the groom at a Yooper wedding? He's the one with the clean polo shirt!

Went to work for a paper manufacturer's engineering department in 1989 with a tie and sports coat. Was told that the tie was not required as when I would be called out to one of the plant facilities it would be a safety hazard. Went a year and a half with only casual attire when the Department Manager stopped by and said, "We're meeting with German equipment supplier's tomorrow, so wear a suit or sport coat as they will not respect you without proper attire." Boy was he right.

gjc

RE: comment about dressing code

I have not hit this problem for 40 years, so I do not know how things have changed.
My own experience is that it varies from company to company, depending on the level of " Starched shirtedness." of the upper management.
One company I worked for, the management was content to let blue jeans be worn in the office, I moved from that company to another , wore the blue jeans on my first day at work, to be pulled into the managers office after a couple of hours on the job. There I was handed a copy of the companies dress code. ( Polyester slacks, no bright colors, oxford shirts in white or pastel colors long sleeve , sleeves may be rolled up on hot days, brown or black shoes no sneakers, open collar Ok in office, tie in a subdued color required if meeting clients. Well trimmed beard ok or clean shaven. Permission required to grow beard if you did not have one.) At that time there was a strong " Anti hippie " sentiment but the law had been changed requiring companies to allow facial hair. I have had a full beard for many years.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: comment about dressing code

I assume that mtu1972 implies that you graduated in 1972 from 'da Tech', eh? I graduated in 1971, but am not from the UP, but rather from the upper part of the lower peninsula, however our first two sons were born in Hancock while I was still a student.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: comment about dressing code

What does a boss being a phd have to do with suit & tie?

My immediate boss (actually 2 layers he's my normal manager and temp engineering director) <edit> is Phd & <edit> never wears a suit & tie and most days I'm probably dressed better than him. Some of the other working phd types are extreme California casual (except no flip flops or shorts anymore). The VP levels phd's are more formally attired. So phd or not appears to have no impact on dress.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: comment about dressing code

I had assumed that mtu referred to the famous manufacturer of diesel engines, which just shows where assumption gets us. Not that it makes any difference of course. smile

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
KENAT

PhD with suit & tie (& always polite) OR Engineer with a jean & shirt...(sometimes not very impolite).

Who would you pick ?
I worked under supervision of the second (with gray hair)...was a great pleasure.

RE: comment about dressing code

rotw, sorry I missed out that my current boss is Phd in my above post since edited.

Honestly I'm unclear why 'Phd' is a major factor. One persons polite is another persons mealy mouthed, likewise one persons 'frank & straight forward' is another persons 'rude & abrasive'.

I'd rather a decent & competent individual who's a bit rough around the edges than a well presented a$$hole.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: comment about dressing code

Kenat,

Years ago my boss described me as 'belligerent and confrontational' in my year-end appraisal and then qualified it with 'and usually right'. If I can find it I'll post a scan - it amused me greatly at the time. It was nicely hand-written too which made it so much more personal in the age of word-processed regurgitated crap.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
ScottyUK, what a nice compliment you did receive indeed.

We had once a Sales representative (part of our Client/Supplier company) who was an extremely gentle person. not conflictual, always nice and relaxing talking to the guy.

I once told my Boss:
Me: Boss we should contact this guy to help us with these stuffs; we are really stuck at this point.
Boss: Not a good idea
Me: Why Boss ?
Boss: This sales guy is too gentle...has no personality....has no influence in their own company... people do not listen to the guy.

RE: comment about dressing code

Quote (JohnRBaker)


I assume that mtu1972 implies that you graduated in 1972 from 'da Tech', eh? I graduated in 1971, but am not from the UP, but rather from the upper part of the lower peninsula, however our first two sons were born in Hancock while I was still a student.

I am from the upper part of the lower peninsula, and went to Tech for school as well! Albeit much later than the 70s. ;) Small world!


In the spirit of the thread, I have been working professionally just over 4 years now as reliability/materials/mechanical/maintenance engineer for a chemical plant. I wear jeans and tshirt or sweatshirt every single day, except maybe 3 or 4 times in the last 4 years. Those 3-4 times were when I had meetings or a forum with executive level folks of the company. I don't see "external" customers at all. And my job often involves getting outside, in the shop, etc. Most people wear polo or collars but about 1/3 of my group are tshirts. Our plant safety manager wears a hoody every. single. day. Our plant ops manager wears crocs and those zip-off-at-the-knees pants.

I love it. I see dressing up in nice clothes that I know will just get dirty or worn out as an exercise in futility. As mentioned a lot already in this thread, moral of the story, dress for your audience!

RE: comment about dressing code

I've almost always worn collared shirts and dark slacks.

Early in my career, when everybody wore white shirts and ties, I wore clip-on ties because I worked around, and in, rotating machinery.
I wear real ties only for funerals.


My friend Bill noticed that one clique of arrogant engineers and pseudo-engineers wouldn't speak to him if he wasn't wearing a tie. ... so he stopped wearing ties.

When I got thrown out of the Engineering dept., the one with the arrogant engineers, the Founder gave me an office overlooking the former machine shop, next to the CNC punch press, and I reported to an outside consultant who always wore jeans, and to the Comptroller, who called me into his office to suggest that my career there would go better if I bought five or six nice suits and wore them every day. ... maybe in his world; he never set foot in a machine shop.

Then I modified my own dress code, and started wearing nice shorts, because it was southern Florida, and I was supervising two projects in other buildings, so I had to cross the street and walk half a mile along it a couple times a day. There was of course some discussion among the cognoscenti. One fine day the Founder met me on the street and remarked that he'd wear shorts too if his legs weren't so skinny. I said "Why do you care? You don't have to look at them." I loved working for him, and did until he died.


Some jobs later, I visited a yacht maker who thought they were having trouble with our product. I crawled around outboard of an engine to inspect their (tight) installation. ... then they mentioned the fresh gelcoat they had applied to the hull in that area. Ruined a two hundred dollar custom shirt. Such is the cost of representing your employer to customers. Wal-Mart shirts don't look nearly as good on me.








Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: comment about dressing code

Mike, I hope you billed for the shirt!

Please remember: we're not all guys!

RE: comment about dressing code

No, I didn't bill for the shirt.
... at least not directly.

Some time later, after being laid off for the second time from the same place, they asked for my help.
... and paid for the shirt, with some lagniappe.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: comment about dressing code

I work at a shipyard, I was told before my interview to wear a polo and jeans and steel toe boots. That's what everybody wears. The president and exec's wear slacks with a long sleeve button up. If you want to look like you don't know what you are doing in my business you show up in a suit. Shows that everything is relative.

I do temporary design and often have to go in the field to inspect work. I quickly learned that if I like that pair of jeans or shirt, DO NOT wear it to work. I have ruined plenty of good clothes, either by ripping it, getting grease on it, or holes burnt from welding. I wear inexpensive jeans (Levis)to work with golf shirt polo's (breathable).

Meeting outside of our office I will wear slacks and a nice polo. Occasionally we have more formal meetings where I get to dress up in a coat and tie, and I truly enjoy those opportunities (so does my gf).

RE: comment about dressing code

Yeah - Born and raised in the Copper Country. 3rd generation MTU Civil Engineer and was never allowed to even consider any other schools. Had some doubts during the first two years but after Statics and Strength of Materials I knew I was on the right track.

For my first and third jobs I was a "Troll" (i.e. Living below the bridge for those not familiar with our euphemisms). Now I'm technically a cheesehead but still know I'll always be a Yooper.

gjc

RE: comment about dressing code

ScottyUK, I would consider that type of evaluation to be a high compliment!

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)

Quote (DVWE)


rotw,

I'm going to guess that you didn't show up in jeans and a t-shirt for your interview at the company you now work for.


It's for that same reason that you dress less casual when you visit a client.
Quite frankly, I did it once...
It went to an interview for a job which I did not like but had no options: I needed a job..I know its sort of paradox.

The interview was with the vice president (serious stuff). I went with a jean. Since I knew it was borderline (if not literally a real offense)...I went for the tie with a white shirt, of course kept the jean. On one hand I covered my a$$ on the other I was sending a signal "it annoys me that I have to be here". Sadly I got the job. Think reason for this was that vice president somehow knew his division was bogus and a dead end for a talented engineer.
I resigned when the first decent exit option became available...no regret. BUT I have to confess something:
If I was to work in a company where the engineering work is a real joy, for me this mechanical stuffs, well I would wear tie and suit everyday...if company ask me too...high chances they would not look at that but consider other stuffs..

RE: comment about dressing code

I gotta say that I smell some false choices. If you take your time when shopping (a great wife helps me), you can find cheap AND comfortable dress clothes. It's a win-win for everyone. Of course, I can imagine that getting tougher the larger of a person one is.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: comment about dressing code

My earlier response was based around the simple question of "- Is the value of an engineer in the way he/she looks ?" I wasn't implying whether suit & tie or flip flops and board shorts was better or worse etc.

All the comments about 'if you wear a suit you look like you don't know what you're on about' and the many stars moltenmetal was awarded actually support the idea that the perceived value of an engineer is at least in part related to appearance.

Go shopping for long sleeve dress shirts in late winter/early spring, short sleeve button up sleeves in late summer/early fall (Autumn). Sure your selection will be reduced and they'll be 'so last season' but as we're Engineers not reality stars shouldn't be an issue and you'll pay maybe 30% what you would have a few months earlier.

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RE: comment about dressing code

Personally I don't get what's so bad about wearing a nice suit.
They're comfortable and most of the time make you look better.

I guess it's that wearing a suit is entirely a social convention without any real functional necessity that many engineers don't like.

RE: comment about dressing code

No Steven77: the problems with the suit are many. They're not durable against wear. They're easily damaged and permanently soiled. They're expensive, restrictive to movement, and costly to maintain (dry cleaning). They're the triumph of aesthetics and social convention over function. Don't get me started on the tie! Aside from the obvious and very negative symbolic connotations, they serve no useful function whatsoever and are dangerous around rotating equipment or equipment generally.

When your clothes get in the way of fully performing your job functions, you need to change. If you're the kind of engineer who never leaves the office, then sure, I guess you can wear whatever makes you feel comfortable. But in our business, wearing a suit communicates "impractical and unwilling to get their hands (or clothes) dirty", rather than "professional and respectable". In other contexts, casual clothing can communicate a lack of respect for others and can result in you not being taken seriously. So it obviously greatly depends on what kind of work you do and in what context.

RE: comment about dressing code

I wonder, if you went back in time if the attitude of 'can't get your hands dirty wearing a suit' would apply.

May not quite be a suite but a quick google of images for "photo's of wwii industrial workers" showed some images where gentlemen who appeared to be on the shop floor were wearing shirt & tie & even waistcoat.

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RE: comment about dressing code

Quote (KENAT)


'can't get your hands dirty wearing a suit'

Reminds me of the old joke about engineers working in the field.

"What's the difference between an engineer and a field service rep?

An engineer washes his hands BEFORE he goes to the bathroom."

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: comment about dressing code

Quote (TheTick)


Aren't we all Yoopers for one week a year?

Along those same lines (and if you're a Jeff Daniels fan), try getting a copy of the video "Escanaba in da Moonlight" (it's available on iTunes).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0180679/

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: comment about dressing code

Never understood the purpose of ties. Of course, the same argument could be made ad infinitum... jewelry, tattoos, etc.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: comment about dressing code

KENAT, I know what you're talking about. You do see those pics for sure- not just on the shop floor, but farmers too, clad in what looks like a "suit of clothes" including a waistcoat and of course a hat. Do you doubt they got dirty doing those jobs, because they were wearing a jacket and even a waistcoat?

Somewhere along the line, the "suit of clothes" changed from being something worn every day to something worn for "best only"- or at least the expectation was that the clothes would be spotless.

You still see some places where the jacket comes off and a boiler suit goes over the shirt and tie.

What concerns me is that engineers already have a reputation- in many cases a very well deserved reputation- as being a bunch of do-nothings who sit behind computer screens and generate drawings of sh*t that can't be constructed or is full of errors of imagination. Putting them in suits cannot help but make that worse in my opinion. I want to remove any excuse for my engineers to become people deserving of that reputation, because the kind of attitude that pulls engineers away from first-hand observation of the consequences of their design decisions can destroy the reputation of our company in a heartbeat.

RE: comment about dressing code

- Do you doubt they got dirty doing those jobs, because they were wearing a jacket and even a waistcoat? -

Actually the opposite, that wearing a suit or what have you shouldn't preclude you from getting dirty. Might mean you want it to be cheap & machine washable and it may never be a wedding suit again but...

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RE: comment about dressing code

MacGyver,

Lawyers wear neckties for a specific and social purpose. It keeps the foreskin from crawling up their neck.

RE: comment about dressing code

I think the key words for attire are functional, clean/neat and be flexible for the unknowns.

In my history of work, civil/structural/construction, every position I had needed the same criteria. That started after the first 4 years of summer jobs.

My first position was in LA/SoCal area as a facilities design, analysis and retrofitting of rocket engine test stands and blast control structures along with the cooling water supplies and the maintenance/changes of the surrounding areas. Selecting the mode of dress was a "no-brainer". Everyone(design engineers, supervisors, managers and upper executives) wore the classic short-sleeve white polyester shirts with a narrow dark tie and tan/gray. (Just look at the old control room photos of the Gemini and Apollo launches). I worked at the corporate headquarters with a few thousand others or at a facility in the nearby mountains where the dress was still the same. When we went to other meetings at Edwards AFB or in Alabama, Cape Canaveral or Nevada the climate dictated what was appropriate for all occasions and it never changed.

My second job was as a construction engineer on huge (2000 employees daily) iron mining and enrichment plant. We often had to go fly on the corporate plane to Pittsburgh or Chicago for corporate meetings or with the consulting engineers. I asked what to wear and the very stiff Danish Project Manager said to be clean and wear your steel toe boots and make sure they are clean to make a god impression.

My third job was with a public utility in a downtown Minneapolis office, so it was necessary to add a layer of clothing (sport coat with a tie in the pocket)that could be shed easily and appropriate for going out in the field (plants, dams or transmission lines).

I finally learned that it was necessary to be clean, neat and flexible for sites, people and weather.

Since then, I have traveled internationally to about 40 countries with a wildly varying or changing schedule. I finally settled on a "uniform" of a classic dark blue blazer, gray or tan slacks, 3 ties, several knit shirts and two pairs of shoes of shoes and that can be used with a small roll-along carry on for a 3 week trip. It has worked for dinners with other engineers, customers, suppliers or going to the ballet in Moscow. I found the key was flexibility and the waterproof shoes that allow rotation daily and going everywhere as needed, especially in some hot and humid climates. I kept the carry-on packed with the basics, so I could leave easily within an hour or two if necessary. Obviously, the hotel laundry services were used and required.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: comment about dressing code

4
To the OP,

This is not meant to be inciting, just an observation, but your post on the 8th that you were wearing jeans to "send a signal [that] it annoys me that I have to be here" and your original post that suggests that style of dress should be irrelevant seems self-inconsistent.

It's an obvious fact of life that something is always communicated by the way we dress; the more we differ from the crowd around us, the louder that message is. That message may or may not be something that we intended to transmit and sometimes that message can be interpreted differently than we meant it; that will always be a risk when you try to send a "loud" message. Perhaps the message that is being received is the same one as you attempted to send in the interview? Possibly something to think about, possibly not.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
Keith1029

Your post is okay. The point I will make about being self consistent or not is to me there is difference between sending a signal (which is an expression I used on purpose) and it's all about how you dress...

Anyway thanks for the contribution. Good post.

RE: comment about dressing code

I wish some places I had worked at had a bathing code. Doesn't impress the client when you wear a shirt and tie and smell like you came out of the basement of the outhouse.

RE: comment about dressing code

(OP)
Some places have showers inside the office. Maybe a hint.

RE: comment about dressing code

rotw: my father always said that there were really only two types of jobs- jobs where you took a bath after work, and jobs where you took a bath before work...

RE: comment about dressing code

urgross.....rofl

RE: comment about dressing code

@IRStuff, I was listening to that same story this morning on the radio.

The one question I was left wondering is one I've asked myself before. Do the effects of 'dressing up' last, or are they a result of a 'new change' that, when no longer new, fades? I've taken it upon myself to "take it up a notch" in my attire, for my own attitude. If it had a bonus of others perceiving me differently (hopefully positively) then it's a bonus, but I certainly agree that it changes my attitude for the better. However, I do not know that the change is a lasting one.

Studying immediate effects of a change does not assess their permanence and I'm left curious about that. It's especially relevant regarding dress codes. Additionally, the point of the story was that it is contextual. Dressing a notch above those around you caused benefits. It was not necessarily a grade of "this level yields this result, that level yields that result, etc". So a dress code that supplies minimums leaves room for taking advantage. A dress code that supplies "Shall dress in ...." means everyone is on the same level and you cannot rise above.

For whatever that's worth.

RE: comment about dressing code

True, I hadn't thought of that. I was taking the incremental notch as meaning another type of clothing. Wearing collared polos when tshirts are allowed. Wearing button down shirts when polos are required. Wearing slacks when jeans are ok, etc. Wearing a better grade of item can set apart, too. So I guess there is opportunity in all types of dress codes apart from uniforms (even then, some)

RE: comment about dressing code

Sorry, figured everyone knew about the psychological benefits of 'dressing the part'.

I worked construction one summer in high school, the contractor normally wore jeans etc. like everyone else. However, when he was meeting a customer for the first time or going to the bank or accountant or whatever made a big deal about throwing on the old monkey suit and told me it was for the reason Irstuff mentions.

However, go easy on 'dressing for the job you want' - I got a lot of funny looks and called into HR when I walked in to work in a flight suit & helmet one time.

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RE: comment about dressing code

My Batman costume was similarly poorly received.

RE: comment about dressing code

I actually did get to wear a flight suit and helmet once, on the job. We were testing a system on a helicopter, so I sat in the co-pilot seat of the Cobra; that was way cool. Had to buy a surplus Nomex suit, though, but it was worth it. Interestingly, they flew the Cobra cross-country to do the testing, and the two pilots had their luggage stowed in the mock Hellfires and ammo bay.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: comment about dressing code

I can tell you that one of our younger colleagues who appears to be practicing that "dressing a cut above" strategy is getting some blow-back from their peers, and isn't having the desired effect with management either from what I can gather. Remember, this is an environment where worrying about your dress can impede your ability to do your job completely- it's not just an office. So, your results may vary...

RE: comment about dressing code

If you're an engineer at a facility with a fab shop or factory, "dressing the part" doesn't mean wearing a tie, it means putting on your steel toes and getting your hands dirty a few times a week (not just every time one of your designs can't be built.)

RE: comment about dressing code

I guess if you want to be impotent you have to look impotent.

RE: comment about dressing code

Even though I am only a Junior, I look at dressing competitively, not necessarily trying to make a good impression. It is in fact apparent through my life that I have noticed the people who are more "well kept" seemed to generally be more liked and tolerated. Even today, the professional and attractive group were offered grand opportunities, while in contrast the less professional seemed to be viewed as easily replaceable, regardless of engineering skill and knowledge. Almost as if they can find anyone with the experience and skills for the job itself, but the value comes in being presentable for the company.

RE: comment about dressing code

@Leftwow, I couldn't help but think of Patrick Bateman when I read that. ;)

RE: comment about dressing code

Did you see his new business cards?

RE: comment about dressing code

I've never dressed competitively. Maybe it was because I was worried that a zipper accident might occur if I was dressing too fast to race against other people. I should have never watched "Something About Mary".

RE: comment about dressing code

One of the practices when I worked in the UK was to wear polyester slacks an nice shirts in the office, then when you went to a jobsite you wore a boiler-suit over all of that.
For the most part that was not too bad, because temperatures are reasonable there.
I ended up going to a barley mill one day and in particular into the Oast house to measure up a job. There was chaff flying everywhere in the air, the furnaces had been shut off so we could go in there, but management did not want to wait, too long, so we had to get in, and out, as quickly as possible. Whilst we had no problem with the getting out again as soon as possible bit, it took us several hours to do all of the detailed measuring. When I got out I was literally melting, I could not wait to get the boiler-suit off , then when I did, I realized that the clothes were totally ruined. The worst part was that in those days I took the Bus to and from work. Of course there was no shower in the office and I did not have a change of clothing.
I made that commute home that evening with empty seats to the left and right of me ,and people giving me sideways stares like I was a homeless person.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: comment about dressing code

My friend Newell was a submariner, way back when subs didn't have nuclear reactors to power watermakers, so when he rode the train from New London to New York for shore leave, he always had plenty of room....



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: comment about dressing code

One job wouldn't let me wear jeans, but I still had to crawl across the test lab floor. Dickeys to the rescue!

I always wear a tie to a first interview. I also wear shoes that are black and semi-formal but still sensible for factory walks. For a finishing touch, I'll reach under my car and get a good grime stain on the back of my writing hand, then wash it most of the way off. Basically, dressing the part but still sending the message that I'm an "all-terrain" engineer.

RE: comment about dressing code

Yes Dickies, they make a range of clothes, from down and dirty, to airline pilot uniforms, and everything in between. I have a Dickies store near me and could not believe the range of clothing they make. this is a far cry from a few Dickies pants in a department store.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

RE: comment about dressing code

Haha JNieman, After reading it I thought your comment was fitting.

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