Arizona at it Again
Arizona at it Again
(OP)
This worries me. Using the logic of the legislature, (hire at your own risk, you can sue them afterwards...) they could eliminate any licensing for any profession. How soon before they come for engineers? I suspect the Koch's (ALEC) are at at it again. And if it flies in Arizona, expect the exact same stunts to be rolled out across the nation.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/politi...
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/politi...





RE: Arizona at it Again
"They would have to have a certificate of qualification from a national bureau of registration or certification or a degree from an accredited institution in the field."
However, I get the point about it possibly being start of a slippery slope.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Arizona at it Again
Restrain...
Restrain...
Snap!
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Arizona at it Again
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Arizona at it Again
<edit - by which I mean go ahead and type it>
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Arizona at it Again
The suggestion is ludicrous and irresponsible in my opinion, to put it mildly. And that was not my snyde comment.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Arizona at it Again
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Arizona at it Again
--Scott
www.wertel.pro
RE: Arizona at it Again
RE: Arizona at it Again
Here's a few reasons why you wouldn't want the following professions unlicensed:
CODE -->
In a way, licensure is a barrier for entry. It's a barrier that is there to protect everyone to assure that the person with the license is aware of the job and the rules. A good example is a driver's license (vehicle operator's license). Just because someone thinks they can drive, legally they cannot drive a car without a license. They may be the best driver on the road, but they have not proven to the State that they are a competent driver and know the rules. I don't think anyone would think it's a good idea to get rid of driver's licenses.
RE: Arizona at it Again
I found the part that they are changing in this instance of a land surveyor interesting. Engineers still have to be of good moral character and repute, but land surveyors don't. Shouldn't all licensed professionals be required to be moral? I know it's subjective with no real way to measure that other than perhaps criminal record, but still what's wrong with leaving it there? I'd love to hear opinions on this!
RE: Arizona at it Again
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Arizona at it Again
Please remember: we're not all guys!
RE: Arizona at it Again
If the unquantifiable portion of that is true, I find that it is not reworded to something like a requirement of being convicted of 0 felonies and/or a certain number of misdemeanors. I also find it interesting that if it is uncertainty in quantifying it, why isn't it being removed from all other licensed professions? Engineers still have it and it isn't anymore quantifiable based on Engineering as your profession.
I'm not saying right or wrong, I just find certain decisions to be interesting and try to understand the logic in making them. Certainly politics isn't always logical, but you would think if there was a driving principle, it would be consistent among all such rules. When it's not consistent, I try to ask who stands to benefit?
RE: Arizona at it Again
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Arizona at it Again
If they don't ask, and there's a newspaper story that Bernie Madoff got a PE in Kentucky, it will make the agency look pretty stupid.
RE: Arizona at it Again
This would require the insurance companies to evaluate who they insure, and the risk they may hold.
RE: Arizona at it Again
Let's come that this from the opposite direction. I understand you need a license to be a hairdresser. Really? I believe strippers are licensed too.
You can regulate quality by requiring trained, peer reviewed professionals. Alternately, you can inspect work in process. This is a good idea when you handle food for example, where workers are not well paid or empowered. In the case of food, you should be more concerned about supervision and company culture than about workers who will be fired in an instant if they piss off management.
--
JHG
RE: Arizona at it Again
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Arizona at it Again
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Arizona at it Again
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Arizona at it Again
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Arizona at it Again
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Arizona at it Again
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Arizona at it Again
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Arizona at it Again
Sort of like me. I don't have insurance, but my employer does.
(I don't want to be the deep pocket, or make myself a lawyer target).
For car insurance, people who are bad drivers either don't have insurance, or have high risk insurance (at a greater cost).
But like contractors, one should ask about being insured, before you hire them.
RE: Arizona at it Again
Kind of like a background check only works on sloppy criminals not the 'good' ones.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Arizona at it Again
If you are in a position that could potentially expose yourself to litigation, just because you have no insurance doesn't mean that you won't get sued. Someone who files a suit is likely to name anyone they can whether they have insurance or not. In fact, it's unlikely that they even know whether you have insurance or not. Doctors, while they do have insurance, can still lose their homes, etc.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: Arizona at it Again
I am sure GregLocock's model involves mandatory car insurance, which we already have in many places. Law courts do have the authority to withdraw driver's licenses, regardless of what the insurance companies think. If you drive away from the accident undetected, the courts are no more effective than the insurance companies.
--
JHG
RE: Arizona at it Again
And the same times a hundred for engineers. Sure as shooting, if they allowed fly by night engineers, fly by night insurance companies would follow. And what good does an insurance policy do for a flood control project only tested every 50 years? Are you going to have a seance with a long dead engineer to find out his insurance carrier, who by the way, is also gone? The point is to avoid problems, not litigate them.
We engineers are designing buildings, circuits, pumps, etc. that will (hopefully) far outlast us. Don't the users of those designs deserve the comfort of knowing a minimally competent individual designed them?
RE: Arizona at it Again
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Arizona at it Again
Do we also have tests for store clerks, and car salesmans? Where does it end? And that is the concern.
We currently have the same debate with Uber.
As far as what I do at work, the public has no idea if I designed it, or if one of my coworkers designed it. The company is the one who stands behind it. And it is the company that assigns someone to do dam inspections, and oil spill mitigation, etc. The fact is many of the simple tasks are done by non-engineers, and they call us when they need help.
So what is the name of the engineer that designed the defective batteries? Or do you just sue the company he works for?
RE: Arizona at it Again
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Arizona at it Again
Licensing is how governments manage limited resources, and/or ensure some minimum level of competence. At some point, it has to be done.
Quite a few years ago, I took my car into one of those Jiffy Lube places for an oil change. They asked me if I would like them to put some of their fuel injector cleaner into my gas tank.
What I should have done at this point was ask if they were licensed mechanics. What I did was say "Okay, yes." There were clouds of evil smelling smoke coming out of my exhaust for the next hour or so. Eventually, my engine light came on and I wound up taking it into the dealer for service. I don't think the problem here was licensing. The problem was me not recognizing that they were not qualified to touch my fuel injection. Now I know.
--
JHG
RE: Arizona at it Again
http://now.eloqua.com/es.asp?s=1360&e=102418&a...
RE: Arizona at it Again
OK.
Darrell Hambley P.E.
SENTEK Engineering, LLC
RE: Arizona at it Again
Ahahahahah, this is the perfect response and hilariously phrased. You should write political speeches for the opposition.
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Arizona at it Again