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Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
Hello.

Would you take a 20% cut in salary (around 7500 USD) to learn a specific software if training was included? I am a graduate and I'm thinking if I should leave my current job to work for someone that is willing to provide training using Ansys. Long term would this could be good but I'm unsure how important this is, as I currently use FEA software but it is an in house program.

Thanks.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

No.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

No.

Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Quote (Long term would this could be good )

What long term are you talking about? Do you mean with your new Ansys knowledge, you'll be able to get a better job? And does better mean higher paying or better conditions? Higher paying than your job now, meaning a 20% raise? Plus any salary you've lost in the meantime?
And by the way, if you have a degree and 20% of your salary ($37,500?) is $7500, you're already underpaid.
Big no from me.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
Yes, I mean with ANSYS experience under my belt would it be better for my future prospects? Also the company offering a lower salary but training is a consulting firm so the work is likely to more varied and in my opinion more interesting, just another thing to consider

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

No. You can learn it on your own while you still have your current job....you might even be able to convince your current employer to switch software if there is a compelling reason to do so.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Depends on which type of training.

- If it is a training course (seminar or 5 to 10 days) and then go back to normal life. Answer is NO.
- If it is the training you get from being involved on practical situations where role requires you to practice the tool extensively (i.e. stay late at the office, have tough deadlines, have a guru sitting next to you that you can learn from, etc.). My answer is where do I need to sign ?

Anywhere just my opinion.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
Changing software is out of the question in my scenario! But I appreciate the suggestion.

In response to rotw: I would use it almost every day and for most projects I would work on, along side a team of experts, so not just a one off course.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Follow your heart.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Going back 20% is a long way back, trying to come forward that amount with be very hard, probably 4 years.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

No, for all you know someone in two years will completely revolutionize FEA analysis and you'll want to learn another FEA package. Don't change jobs to learn a software that you don't need right now or don't 100% know you're going to need in the near future. That is unless it will be a job requirement (MS word, excel, powerpoint, etc.).

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

I answered a similar question about software; "form follows function." If your in-house program is any good at all, then it'll be doing things similarly to commercial packages, so it's of marginal utility to go out of your way to learn one particular program. So, unless the other features of this new job are, by themselves, worth losing 20%, then I would stand pat.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

7500/0.2 = 37,500. No, and shouldn't you be looking for better pay, assuming an equivalent to a BS degree.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
Ok so I looked again at the numbers (it was originally off the top of my head), I didn't think it was that relevant but the actual numbers are: effective salary due to Bonus etc. is ~$47,000. Whilst the other (after pay cut) is around $41,000, so looking at $6000 drop (~13%)

With the numbers correct, and taking all things into account (a potentially more interesting role [although one can never predict the future!] + training), does this sway the decision

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

That's better. It's still a no though. Figure out a way to keep the better pay and get the training. There has to be a way.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

At the start of my career, if I had the opportunity, to work extremely close with an industry leader due to the company badly needing a successor and there was an agreement or expectation that I take a larger important role sooner into my career than normally would otherwise, I think I would have taken it. Money at the start of your career is a wash usually in my opinion but getting really good experience in a field that you know your interested in is extremely valuable. Wasting time doing stuff that you are not that interested in but doing because you really needed a job is expensive. 20% is hard to swallow if you have no idea how to make up that ground quickly. I haven't run across one company though that was cheap with you at the start and became very rewarding later on.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Even if you have to take vacation and pay for attending training on your own, I would think you would be better off in the long run than taking a pay cut for training. At the very least, you will be in a better negotiating position for your next job with a higher paying current job. That said, there are more important factors to job satisfaction than money. If there are other compelling reasons to take the other job, then by all means go for it! But I personally would not take a large pay cut just to get training on a widely available software program.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Depends on how long you are required to commit with the firm too.

However, in general, I would opt with the NO!'s too.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
Personally I think $41000 is still good for a young grad, but hey I'm pretty new to all this! I must day it is not only the software, it is the working environment and nature of the work which will develop my skill set more.

Also, HamburgerHelper I don't fully understand what you mean when you say you haven't run across one company that was cheap with you at the start and became very rewarding later on. Are you saying it is unlikely to pay off in that company? If so I would go else where (as jpankask) has stated

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

I'm not familiar with this software. But I can say from my point of view if someone came to me and said I would give you training on a software if you take a 20% cut in your salary would be a insult to me. But I understand where your coming from, sometime software can make the different between a good career move and a bad one. I would say try to see if you can learn the software on your own and if that doesn't yield anything, then see if you can find another employer who give the training and keep your salary, and if none of that work maybe take a 10% cut if you really think it's going to pay-off in the future (but if you take a cut it's going to put you in the hole already and probably take you some additional time just to get back to that salary your making already).

Overall, my gut feeling is if your banking on your career on a software starting out as a engineer and not more on learning the trade or the finished product you're specializing yourself too much. I'm sure with your current employer you can learn something that would bring value to your career and still not take a 20% hit (which could make the different in your lifestyle whether that be a car or saving up for a new home if those kind of things are important to you).

Your job decision should be based on whether your growing in your trade not so much a software (I always based on my job decision on the people I worked with and the projects I worked on). That's my two cent. good luck ST111.pipe

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
Great advice geewiz20! I think that is another big element, the fact the pay cut would include going to work for a consultancy and therefore more variety in projects...a lot of thinking to do still!

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Note that the cost of Ansys training isn't going to be much more than $6000 https://caeai.com/ansys-training, so you're going to be effectively paying at least $12,000 (for two years), so you might as well not even consider the training to be much more than a minor perk, and concentrate solely on whether it's worth your while to lose at least that much money just for the work content and environment.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

And who's to say that after they "train" you with this program, you'll even use it? If you're given two weeks of training and never or rarely use the program, will you really learn it? You might end up checking shop drawings for 90% of your time.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Of course as a recent grad you have recently been paying up to 25000 a year for 'training' for 4 years, so 6000 a year isn't so bad.

I've taken a pay cut to move into a more interesting area, it doesn't strike me as absurd. 41000 a year does strike me as absurd, apparently the USAn restriction of trade rules (sorry, hem hem, PE regulations) aren't doing graduate engineers many favours.





Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

OP: If its a matter of doing what you like and this job will likely be fulfilling your expectations, looking beyond software experience thing, well I will put money second in the list. Reason is: your productivity and learning abilities will increase tangibly when you simply do what you like. This also means higher chances that you will stand from the crowd and that can lead to reward...whatever the form - see what I am pointing out ? with negatives cumulate enough kinetics by growing solid technical skills to make a "quantum leap" if you could impress your next hiring manager -let alone the satisfaction of being and working in your element. Now having said that with other family/personal/etc. constraints certainly the decision process becomes more complex. Is this your case ?

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Tell them you're very interested, but need them to match your current salary for you to be able to make the transition. Maybe they match it minus the bonus, but there has to be some wiggle room in their initial offer.

Life is a negotiation.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
The job uses ANSYS on a regular basis, in house training + on the job training, so it would definitely not be a one off course then never use it again.
Sorry for the confusion I used $ as I know a lot of people on the forum are in the US, I didn't know there was such a large difference for graduate salaries! After a quick search this appears to be because of tuition fees being considerably less in the UK (and readily available financial aid), would you agree?

Cycling back around to the original question...on the bases that average UK salary for a graduate is around $39000, does this affect you decision (now the argument of underpaid is no longer viable)

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

(OP)
rotw:

Yes you are correct, there are other significant issues that come into play such as location etc. I won't over complicate nor bore everyone with my personal matters, but I would agree with you that the decision takes on another element with these factors incorporated.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Tuition fees are a one-time thing, so that really shouldn't impact your salary. What might impact salary is NHS, which is something that the US does not have, and which means that for engineers, part of the health cost must be directly borne by one's salary.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

ST111 - back in 2003 I left the UK making £27270 PA as a 'design engineer' with about 4.25 years experience. Took me a couple of years before I got employed in the US as an Engineer but started out a little under $70,000 PA but it was a contract position so not quite apples to apples but gives some idea. 'Benefits' certainly is an area with a lot of differences - health care is the obvious direct $ factor but things like amount of vacation, employee protections and various other things come into play too.

As to your question, that's a big drop just to learn some SW. However, if it's a chance to get overall better on the job training & experience as a stress analyst then might be worth it.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

2.5 is a common USD/GBP conversion rate for comparable engineering jobs. Regardless of the currency exchange rate.

Steve

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

One of the suggestions above was to learn ANSYS on your own time. That's not a bad idea, but at interviews there may be a crunch question, where your answer will sound perilously like "well I've done all the tutorials" ... an answer frequently encountered in my specialisation, and it means that the interviewee has saved us about 3 weeks of doing the tutorials, but doesn't tell us a whole lot more.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

In my experience with many different software packages (in the power systems world), the easy part is learning how to drive the software, e.g. press the buttons and navigate the user interface. The hard bit is understanding the algorithms / calculation engine behind the UI, developing the intuition to "sense check" whether a simulation result looks valid and solving modelling / simulation problems. This is actually the most important part and is generally not program-specific since most programs tend to use similar, if not identical, underlying algorithms.

I once worked at a software company and gave training courses on the main product. One of the biggest obstacles for me as a trainer was that many participants didn't really understand the basic concepts of power system modelling / simulation and it was not in the scope of the training course to teach that. The course was set up to teach how to drive the software. So I don't think training courses by themselves are really going to help you... most of the important work needs to be done by yourself in your own time or on real projects.

One advantage that you have is that you say the FEA software you use is developed in-house. That's actually a good thing because you can directly ask the developers specific questions about how it works. You'd be amazed how much you can learn sitting next to a developer while inspecting the code. Unless you worked at ANSYS, you probably wouldn't have access to this.

So I concur with the other posters here, don't do it.

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

One thing that makes me laugh is thge number of software courses that basically consist of the presenter taking you through the tutorials and exercises in the manual. Now there's a value added experience.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

I work in the world of "similar, if not identical, underlying algorithms". Sometimes I try to sit in on training courses for our own products if they're held locally. That's always a worthwhile experience.

Steve

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

Greg, couldn't agree more the typical SW training course I've been of is of fairly limited use. Best thing about it was you were assigned time to do the tutorials (i.e. didn't get pulled onto other tasks) and there was someone to ask questions of if you got stuck.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Would you take a 20% pay cut to learn a specific software?

No, I would learn that software myself by reading (practicing) and keep that 20% in my pocket :)

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