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Sealing designs produced in India
13

Sealing designs produced in India

Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Hey all,
I find myself stuck in a moral and ethical dilemma.
For the next 6 months my company sub'ed me out to a large corporation, where I am to review and seal designs created in India.
I guess this is the new normal in the push to Globalization.
I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.
Also contacted the state professional society, they were only able so far to give their personal opinion.

Of course there is this gray area about stamping other designs.
Some say no, never, others are ok with it assuming you review it fully.
But this feels even bad to me, like I am a pawn in a corporate shell game.

I sit here now on the fence, juggling my own responsibilities, my own conscience and whether I should just go along to get along.
Or refuse to do this work, and see what happens.

What say you?

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

My understanding is that you are to only seal work completed by others under your direct supervision as a Licensed Engineer. I think some states in the US state things similar and i found on a quick internet search Canada states:

APEGBC professionals must meet the requirement of direct supervision when they
delegate activities involving the practice of professional engineering or professional
geoscience to a subordinate. This QM Guideline is intended to assist APEGBC
professionals in establishing and maintaining a documented process for the delegation
of professional engineering and professional geoscience work to a subordinate working
under direct supervision, that meets the intent of the Act, including:
• basic and general guidance on direct supervision;
• active involvement;
• adequate supervision of fi eld reviews;
• responsibility for professional engineering or professional geoscience decisions; and
• appropriate consideration of experience levels when delegating professional tasks.

https://www.apeg.bc.ca/APEGBC/media/APEGBC/Guideli...

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

You were not in responsible charge of this design. You could not seal these in any of my states.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Thanks for the PA link.
I am in PA.
I clearly do not meet the definition of "responsible charge"
and it seems a step outside "the spirit of the law" as well.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Quote (ironmon)

I contacted my state Board to see if this violates the ethics policy. They were unwilling to comment.

That would make me seriously question the use of having a state board...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Both the State Board and NSPE just direct me to their web site, and are just willing to repeat the statements there.
And NOT render an opinion.

It seems I must discern this for myself.
Having been laid off twice recently, at the ripe age of 50, I'm not afraid of losing this job.
So, I told superiors that I won't do it.
Not comfortable with the arrangement or the shell game.

So we'll see.

The path to freedom, is not found through adhering to the membership requirements of the collective you find yourself in.
Only membership is.
Freedom is already here....

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

The state board and NSPE will not provide legal advice. That's why they just repeat what is written on their sites. Trying to get them to interpret something is the same as trying to get the IRS to interpret the tax code - they won't do it because they won't assume legal liability.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

I admire you for taking a stand.
But they might decide that if you're so all fired to take reponsible charge, "...we'll send you to India for two weeks every six weeks, direct the engineers and see how you like it."
They're probably still money ahead.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

I don't envy your being forced to make this stand. It sounds like you've done the right thing.

Keep us posted, I'm curious to see how your employer responds.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Good for you, ironmon. Just curious, what type structures are they designing in India for construction in the US? I know there is a lot of drafting outsourced there, but design is a different story, unless there is supervision on site in India by the destination country.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Tell your boss to send you to India for six months so you can directly oversee the work. That would not be a professional or ethical conflict.

No, he could not reduce your wage for working as an engineer in India...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Sealing designs produced in India

I'm sure there are situations/designs where this could work, and plenty where it doesn't.

Are you a supervisory engineer with direct access to your design team in India?
Are you redlining and returning drawings for revision and then approving? This seems like having an active part in the design process to me.

I provide oversight from afar all the time (like a few states not countries), and feel perfectly comfortable with the design process. I think if you have ample understanding of the project/process and some form of a relationship with the designers under your seal then you are approaching a proper design method. I also think you could review documents and provide a sealed review letter. Stamping the docs would mean you had something to do with their creation, and if you didn't then stamping them is way off the charts.

A little more data about what is going on would help the forum.

Good luck with your bosses.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

2
Way to go ironman! Exactly the right thing to do.

I'm disappointed in your state board. Go past the admin person to their General Counsel. The Board should be able to interpret its own laws and rules.

Like RocketRed, I've done a lot of remote review within my company; however, that's a bit different situation. In those cases, all design decisions are mine.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
The Company that I was "loaned" to, is the US engineering office for a very large petro-chemical company.
They just had a big layoff.
I understand that 80% of the design work out of this office is from overseas.
They affix their US HQ location on the drawings giving the illusion that they are the originator.
I do not have direct access to the team in India.
I was given complete design drawings, calculations (all are computer calcs) and STAAD models., to review and stamp.

The project is for "one of the other" world's largest petro-chemical companies.

I'm back in my home office, I understand that my supervisor is going to stamp them, and ask for me to assist in the engineering review.

Just stinks to the high heavens.
I just want to go home and drink.

signed
Lamenting in PA

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Not suggesting you should at all, but you could complain to your engineering board if your boss stamps them and you feel it was unethical.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Ironman, aside from the ethical issues, how are the end designs? Are they of a level (quality, detail, constructability, etc.) that you would expect if you were supervising a group locally?

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
The designs are good, and appear to be well thought out.
All the shapes are Chinese standard, so was hard to get a "feel" for the robust-ness of it.
All of the main assemblies are being built in China and shipped over in barges, which was another one of the load cases to consider.

I realize that I have some social conditioning to overcome, having worked for US Steel Mills.

But it ain't gonna happen today.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

This silliness is part of why I have my own company - only I decide who to work for. I will say that Ron had it right - my state board has a lawyer on staff who is more than happy to give advice on how to stay out of trouble. I've called him a couple times when I was asked to do something that made me think twice, and was glad I did! (best part - it's FREE.)

and ironmon, keep a good watch on that process, and keep your feet clean. Best of luck.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Seems to me that the whole concept of "responsible charge" is an antiquated notion derived from medieval and recent apprenticeship practices. After all, does that mean you literally hover over the engineer doing the math and drawings every minute as master might have done for a new apprentice? Even if you had that engineer in the office doing the work for you, isn't it more typical that they do the work and present you the final product for review, correction, and stamping? Otherwise, how could a single PE have "responsible charge" over a cohort of subordinate engineers?

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

I grew up in a Union household ... this entire thing stinks to me.

Is this what we have become? Signing and sealing drawings produced for dirt cheap in foreign countries while our own economy falters?

"Engineers shall build their professional reputation on the merit of their services and shall not compete unfairly with others."

Does this ring a bell to anyone? Does the owner of this project know that it is being engineered overseas or does he think the work is an American product?

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Seems to me that there are a bunch of unrelated questions
> Are the drawings and calculations done to the same level of quality you would expect from someone who was under your "responsible charge?" If no, then they should be corrected, if yes, then they are acceptable from an engineering perspective and are fundamentally no different than if they had been produced here.

> Are the engineers in violation of "the law?" Not obvious, since we don't know what their local laws require.

> "Engineers shall build their professional reputation on the merit of their services and shall not compete unfairly with others." And? If this were paramount, then subbing it even to non-licensed engineers within your "responsible charge" would be unfair, since it's probable that you don't pay those engineers then same as you're being paid, and most likely, your contract rates doesn't necessarily reflect that either. And what if their quality were no worse than your competitors, how would that be "unfair?"

> Based on the above, if the OP were stationed in India and met the "responsible charge" criteria, how would that be unethical? There's nothing stopping "others" from doing the same.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Now that Canon is in place to keep licensed professional engineers, in the United States, working.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

IRstuff -

Of course EITs perform engineering work. That is how all of us learned how to do our jobs. But, they ask questions along the way, we give guidance, we review their calculations (not 100% of each multiplication or addition) but spot check especially when we see results that don't make sense. And I have never charged my rate for the work an EIT does. That to me sounds unethical.

In my opinion - 'Responsible Charge' does not mean one review at the end and if it looks good I stamp it. Responsible Charge means I've collaborated before (setting design criteria) and during (answering questions, redirecting if the design engineer is going off track, giving advice on local construction practices, etc) the entire design process.

I'm not an attorney but just reviewing at the end of the project and stamping it appears to NOT meet our professional standards.

As far as competition - Competition is being faster (thereby costing less), better (perfect designs/construction documents and even the 'constructability' of our designs) and staying on schedule. What this company is doing is disgusting and very possibly illegal. It only hurts our profession and if I were the OP I would seriously consider making a complaint to the board of engineers.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Twinkie
The Owner and Designer are both multinational corporations with Global HQ's in Europe.
I did look up some news articles on the project, and just getting more jaded, the same ole story millions in tax breaks, promises for thousands for local jobs, etc.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Just makes me wonder why doesn't this big corporation us hire some PE's to oversee....even remotely, and get them to stamp the projects.
As apposed to sub-ing it out to a little mom and pop Engineering Company?

I only been here 3 months....

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Because it's easier to bully the small mom and pop company to do what they want. Most small engineering companies are battling to make real profits, a partnership with a big company seems attractive from an income perspective, but you could end up losing in the long run.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

...and it seems the "new guy" at the small firm is being bullied into doing something he doesn't believe in as well.

This pisses me off that the PA State Board will give you no guidance. It doesn't surprise me, but still...what are they here for?

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

As SLTA and I both know, we don't always pick good clients, even when we have the decision to do so! Our motivations are usually somewhat different than those of a corporate structure. As small company owners, we try to select clients for continuity (repeat business) and referrals, financial stability (theirs and ours!), and of course, how interesting the project is. In a corporate structure it is usually the potential fee/profit that the project might yield over all else.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
So it appears that I've overcome the first hurdle in this situation.
That being that I'm not going to affix my PE seal to this work.

After a quiet day back at my home office friday, my super told me that he discussed this with the owner, and he is okay with it.
Not gonna get fired, there is other work to do......cool

However........ I failed to really make clear where I'm at on this.
Cause, the expectation shifted to now reviewing the design for him to seal.

Oy Vey! the says to myself..........what now Batman

So since i put most of the time friday on overhead, (nothing to do) I gets a text friday evening about my time card.

Deep sigh.....muster up courage......my help is on the way.

So, I call the super to explain.....and tell him that I want nothing to do with this project, zero, I don't even want to discuss it in any capacity.

awkward moment of silence........"ok"........ hurdle cleared

Monday awaits.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Hope your resume is up to date!

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

If I didn't at least have a hand in preparing the document then I'm not stamping it. I don't care if the document came from the office next door or from some other continent.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
re: GregLocork

1. I do not want to stamp other people's work, regardless to country of origin.
2. I do not want to participate, and facilitate the outsourcing of my profession to countries with vastly different labor rates.
3. I love the creative side of Engineering, and I don't want to number crunch other people's data for 6 months.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

re. 1, why not? As a senior PE, at some point in time, it'll be your responsibility to train EITs, which means that you'll have to delegate such tasks to younger and less experienced engineers. If this is not something you're not willing to do, then you need to reconsider your career and the company you work for, as I would expect that they would have similar expectations.

re. 3, similar comments. It's selfish to want only the fun stuff, but not help others appreciate the fun stuff by neither checking their work nor allowing them to do some of the fun stuff themselves. If that's really what you want, so be it, but you might want to consider going solo.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Re #1: I'm assuming he means stamping other peoples work he has no ability to work with or provide mentoring/oversight/suggestions to.

For example, I do the structural engineering for two precast plants. The other day one of the estimators at the other plant worked up a buoyancy calculation for a series of manhole structures and sent it to me to be stamped. I reviewed the calculations, changed a few numbers to more accurately reflect the self-weights, and stamped it with no problem. I had no problem because it was someone who I had control over and understood their capabilities, and was able to review and work with them to get it to a point I was comfortable with it.

Now if this was another company, even one next door, I wouldn't have stamped it even if it was 100% correct. I have no knowledge of their abilities, no ability to work with them effectively to make changes, and no way to claim the work was done "under" me.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Yes, I'm talking about other peoples completed work.
Of course I would stamp any and all work done under my supervision.

And for #3, was just one of the many thoughts, that whirled around in my head, not my primary motivation.
Sometimes you got to soldier though the "not fun" work, but you also got to be true to what you really want to do, to be.
So, there is this balance between someone's tool and being an artist.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

#3 is called "forensic engineering" .... we all know how hard it is to figure out that design that was done by the guy who left the company 6 years ago, and now is coming to fruition. I couldn't imagine having to do this with work coming from other countries.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

The difference is that you potentially know what the exact design requirements are, which is not often the case in "forensic" engineering. Moreover, there's still the possibility of asking the engineer who did the work. It's much harder to come across a design where the specific requirements aren't currently known, and there's no finding the original engineer to ask questions.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

(OP)
Another thing that makes this smell like a corporate shell game, is that the design firm is insisting that we review the designs there in their office.
Even though I sat there for a week and the only interaction I had with the design firm's personnel was to ask if I'm done yet.
Seems like a cya move, to make it feel legit.

They also, I was told, had a big layoff, makes me wonder if they staffed up, just to make it look like local jobs were being provided. The state in competing to get this plant kicked in 1.6 billion in "tax incentives".

Money does, what money wants to do.

Of course this is looking at it though my own bias, my boss says "at least they are building the plant here".

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Ironmon,

I think you were correct on your original #3; I have not worked for over 30 years, starting as low man on the totem pole and first in the bucket for nothing. Experience has its perq's; I'll send a junior engineer to be the man-in-the-pit 'cause that's the way I learned, that's the way my mentors learned, and I'm far too old and crotchety to change now.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

Hello ironmon,

tight corner, really.. but...
pls. allow me to imagine some other setups of the issues..

If you leave the ring, how you gonna fight back?
Imagine, you get to be the man to have the hand and expertise to really see through "foreign" read alien designs. It would be you to be the cost correction factor that makes your homebase engineering cost attractive again 'cause the others'll be redoing it until professional standards are met.
I think that good expert designers cost their $s anywhere, else as intelligent people they'd move over somewhere more rewarding.

Why to shrink back from numbercrunching other peoples designs?
Imagine, you could be the "last instance" to review the plans of SS "Titanic" before building commences, and suddenly at 1:30 am of day 0 it's you to realize that the bulkheads don't meet the top deck...

[i]How to stop globalization from your desk?
Imagine, you're The One to be able to look through those designs and find the issues, but refuse.. and "they" get to someone with a stamp at the ready and, well you see the picture!

Money does, what (some) people want to do.

Pls. forgive me all those simplifications, it's difficult to talk figurative.. me, that's more the numbers..

Best of luck, & Kind regards

R.

RE: Sealing designs produced in India

I worked with a drafting group that had a bunch of their work subcontracted out to India. The drafters were to oversee the work. The drafters made it work about as well as you can imagine. It lasted about two months.

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