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New job offer - vacation time
3

New job offer - vacation time

New job offer - vacation time

(OP)
I received a job offer this past week from a CE firm with approx. 50 employees. I have been a PE for nearly 2 years and have about 8 years experience. The vacation time offered is no vacation for a year, 5 days after one year, 10 days after two years, and 15 after seven years. I currently get 11 hour per month at the job I'm at do have about 100 hours saved up after 3 years of employment. I think its normal to wait 90 days - 6 months before being able to take vacation, but I've never heard of having to wait a year then receiving only a week the first year. Anyone have any thoughts? I am expecting my first child this May so I will obviously need time off for that.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

You can try negotiating a signing bonus equivalent to X weeks of salary and then take the time off without (wink wink) pay.

You can also let the hiring and functional manager you think the policy is bunk and get a read off them as to how seriously and strictly they take the policy. Some places don't care if you take a day here or there. 3 weeks at once might be a fiffer3nt story

RE: New job offer - vacation time

It's certainly extremely non-typical, so why even bother considering? Don't you think that their miserly attitude towards vacation will be reflected in their general dealings with you? Do they have more than 50 employees? If so, they are required by law to give you FMLA benefits.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Do they offer other leave time? For instance, do they allow you to take sick (or leave) time for childbirth and ensuing recovery? In the bad old days, for instance, there were policies that allowed one day off for a funeral, except if it was an immediate relative where you got three days. There was a policy for every calamity you could think of. As you can imagine, this got very unwieldy. But maybe your baby time will be allowed under that.
Now most enlightened companies just combine sick time, vacation and other leave into a pot (called Personal Time Off [PTO]) and you can do with it as you wish. No arguments whether someone is sick or not, notes from doctors, and other distractions. Just like vacation, you earn more over time, but there's a base amount you get right away.
Now if this company doesn't allow any vacation for the first year, that's unusual. In my experience, it's normal to allow some after six months. But I don't think there's any labor law on that.
However, if this is a deal breaker, don't take the job. Sometimes companies figure things like this out when they can't hire anyone good.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

I don't think it is that unusual for "small" consulting firms. I had a similar situation when I was being downsized into early retirement at age 50 because of a buyout by a foreign firm. Got two job offers; one was very similar to above and the other one was willing to give me 50% credit for my 27 years of experience and therefore start me off with 3 weeks of vacation. I chose the second offer even though the pay was about $2,000 less per year.

I would not expect the company to change their position very much, but you've got nothing to lose by asking for some consideration.

gjc

RE: New job offer - vacation time

(OP)
They do offer 7 days of sick leave per year although it wasn't clear in the offer when I would be able to use it. They also offer flex time which the hiring manager said can be used if approved by my supervisor. I have requested the time off for the baby and also a vacation in June that has been planned and paid for for quite some time now. If that is non-negotiable then I'll be staying at my current job. I feel if I work hard and be a good employee that they will give me a day off if necessary.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

The criteria you told of at the possible new job is very typical of what I have experienced in the past. However, for women, I can't say (being male) and it has been many years since I worked for anyone other than myself. Things may have changed. However, for a valued employee, such as one capable of really being productive or a good administrator I'd say it ought to be something to negotiate since you then are a valued employee, not one barely earning your way. With 8 years experience you may fit that description and you may not. Would current employer really want you to stay or are you just another cog in the wheel??

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Its a pity that posters like this OP, do not identify what geographical area of the world.. or indeed country they live in. Employment law has major differences between say Europe and North America. I suspect that Japan, Saudi, and Australia are all different with their own idiosyncracies. And I suspect that if the local unemployment rate is say 15%, that would be relevant if ones previous experience had never seen anything greater than 3%

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Quote (ttuterry)

I have requested the time off for the baby and also a vacation...

With all due respect, if you are in the USA, you are asking the wrong questions. Take IRstuff's advice. If you have other reasons to pursue this job, play "hard ball". Make your questions count, ask if the company is subject to the Family and Medical Leave Act. The responses you get to questions like that will allow you to see if this company is "worth" working for... I doubt it.

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea
www.VacuumTubeEra.net r2d2

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Miningman, the poster is from Texas. You can see this in their profile by clicking on their handle. The location function does not always work accurately, however.

FMLA only grants unpaid leave.

No vacation for the first year is not very unusual policy for low level employees. But it is usually easily negotiable after about 5 years of experience. It would be very difficult for a company to hire experience people if they did not negotiate on this.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

(OP)
I am in Texas, USA. I will find out if they offer FMLA. I will definitely play hard ball as you said SlideRuleEra. I agree Compositepro that vacation should be negotiable after working in the industry for several years. It doesn't seem fair to have to "start over".

RE: New job offer - vacation time

2
If I were you I wouldn't even consider taking this job unless you were incredibly desperate. After working your ass through school, university, PE, 8 years experience, getting an offer like this is ridiculous. They obviously do not care about anyone's personal life and I'm sure zero leave will be the least of your problems. If this is the only offer you have then just start a company working from home. You can take leave whenever you want and be at home with your kid. I guess that's the price you pay for freedom.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

When I started in Engineering back in the late 60's, the place I worked, if you were an hourly employee you had to wait five years for any paid vacation days. Now that didn't mean that you couldn't take vacation, just that you didn't get paid. Now this wasn't too bad in the office since we didn't close during the so-called two-week summer 'change-over'. However, the guys in the shop were forced to take the two weeks off, WITHOUT PAY, where the office guys could just not take vacation and not miss getting paid.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

The difference between the UK/Europe and USA holiday/sick pay is quite a shock to me. In the UK all full time employees are entitled to 28 days of paid holiday plus 5, (I think), paid national holidays. Most larger firms give more holidays - I get 30. I also get full pay if I am off sick which is quite normal for staff jobs, I have never had a job without it in my entire working life, but the actual statuary minimum sick pay is about £88 a week. Much of northern Europe has even better arrangements.
In case you are thinking everyone is off ill all the time - they aren't. Women get paid maternity leave for up to a year and must have two/four weeks off after giving birth - the details are complicated. There is also 14 days paternity leave.
I am counting my blessings here!

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Well DerbyLoco's opinion seems to support my point of view on this matter. And nothing personal , Derby , but the attached seems to suggest that you are welcome to your blessings. In general , we've got things a lot better in North America than in the British midlands.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jan/25/no...

RE: New job offer - vacation time

It's never a good idea to try to compare employee packages and benefits between different countries, even within the same organisation. You really need to decide if you want to live where the grass seems greener. Fortunately as engineers, we have the option to test that foreign grass.

But no paid vacation in the first year does seem a little grim.

Steve

RE: New job offer - vacation time

It is pretty typical of smaller businesses, I've found, to have a 'no vacation' for the first year policy. However, I've found it to be nearly as common to go against that rule. I think they write one policy that covers everyone, including entry level young kids, and use it as a starting point. I've never been denied vacation time when I ask for it during an interview. It's sometimes easy to use as a bargaining chip if they aren't willing to increase the salary. I've found that adding a week of vacation to the starting package is often much easier for them to agree to than a salary increase.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

ttuterry,

fellow red raider?

RE: New job offer - vacation time

That's either cruel or insane. No decent employer expects you to go that long without time off. Ask for what you want.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

The Guardian has a very left wing agenda and facts can be spun to suite a point of view. I am pleased that their are no poor people in the USA and that everyone has a high paid job - I wish the same could be said of all of the UK. You cannot easily compare across countries, or even within them at times, but I was amazed at the lack of statuary holiday.
In reality Derby is a very high tech city, mostly due to Rolls Royce, but there are others in different fields which make the average only just below Cambridge depending on which set of statistics are deployed.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Ask for a premium in pay that will give you, after taxes, the ability to take the number of weeks off, without pay, that you feel you deserve and which are typical in your region. If they balk, you should run. Vacation is a real benefit with a monetary value, but its value in human terms is even greater.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

(OP)
@andriver Yes I am a fellow Red Raider. When did you graduate? I emailed the hiring manager and asked if the vacation time was negotiable. If not then I have no choice but to walk from the offer.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

A smaller firm which may have a policy like this, would be more likely to negotiate than would say a larger firm. I would have to agree with most here that we are professionals, and no vacation time in year one would be a deal breaker for me. Both prospective employee, and employer take a risk when hiring. You risk going into an atmosphere you may or may not like, and they risk losing an employee in year one after they have taken vacation time.

As an engineer I am sure you have compared all compensation from your current job to this new job, but is you haven't make sure to take the following into consideration: Paid time off, insurance coverage/deductibles, 401k matching, salary, location (and potential cost of living adjustment) etc.

I graduated in 2012 with a Civil degree, and will be taking my PE this October. Wish you best of luck on your career decision.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

"I emailed the hiring manager and asked if the vacation time was negotiable".

You just started the negotiation, and not in the best way. Tell them want you want rather than ask what they will give. There are a limited number of "turns" in any negotiation, and you just wasted one of your turns.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Even if they are open to negotiation on the vacation policy, their starting position of 0 days in year one is a giant red flag to me. Thanks, but no thanks would be my initial response.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

My wife and I just looked into FMLA 2 years ago - and employers are only required to honor it if you have worked 1 year at the employer (on top of other requirements, like the number of employees in the office). So even if the OP gets the response "Yes, we honor FLMA", it probably won't be applicable anyway. That's not to say they wouldn't honor it voluntarily, but they wouldn't be forced to per law.

One other thing to consider when switching is the short-term disability insurance. OP does not indicate gender, but for a woman switching jobs, STD benefits might have a waiting period or might not be available with the new employer. My wife was paying into STD for 2+ years when her entire department was downsized at 6 months pregnant. The money we "paid" into STD was essentially lost, as she couldn't get another position offering STD in the remaining 2.5-3 months of her pregnancy. After that experience, I realized we'd have been much better off just saving the STD premiums in a savings account, and drawing on them as needed.

To weigh in on the vacation policy, even here in Michigan, when I graduated 2007, the worst offer I got had 2.5 days at 6 months, 5 days at a year, and allowed unpaid vacation. The first job I accepted started with 3 weeks vacation + 5 sick days + 2 personal days, and grew to total 27 days PTO by time I left (6 years later). My current job started at 15 days. I guess that's the automotive industry, though.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

I have never, never, encountered a job that didn't offer at least 2 weeks vaca time as a salaried employee... and that includes the lowest level employees.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Here in Canada, you required to give two weeks vacation or 4% in vacation pay, irrespective of whether the employee is salaried or hourly. That's the minimum. 0 days isn't on the table.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Don't call it vacation time. Call it paid leave to attend structures conferences or something like that.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

My friend in Sweden just took 2 weeks winter vacation and we were comparing various benefits such as health care, etc. Sounded great, but his taxes on everything takes more than 50 percent of income. I'll stay here in the USA.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

You're taxed in other ways here. Given the gouge in my paycheck caused by ACA (a.k.a. "Obamacare"), I'd rather pay western European-style taxes and get western European-style care.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

I get 7 weeks of paid vacation a year - and so does everybody else in my company from the janitor to the CEO from the first day of employment - and i think that most people actually take the vacation smile

C. u. suckers winky smile

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Morten, are you hiring? I thought my company was good, 4 weeks accrued over the year.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

If they offer this little when they're trying to entice you to their firm, how do you think they're going to treat you when you're already there?

Absent me being desperate or other extenuating circumstances (butt loads of money being offered, career defining projects, etc.), I'd turn it down. You can try and negotiate vacation (and make sure you get it in writing from someone with the authority to make that decision), but companies tend to like to maintain the same policy for every one. If that's their policy, I'd have a few concerns. First, they'll likely be constantly trying to change your agreement because that's their policy and you'll have to fight every time for what they already agreed to just because that's not what they normally do. Second, if they honor it then you're getting more vacation time then your coworkers are getting and that can breed discontent. Unlike pay, large disparities in leave time is fairly obvious to anyone paying attention. Thirdly, a company that doesn't want their employees taking any time off isn't a good company to me. Everyone needs time off. Would seem like burnout rates would be pretty high without it. Productivity drops, job satisfaction drops, turnover rates rise. Most companies recognize this, I'd be concerned that this one doesn't and may not survive because of it.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

well its probably not in your neighbourhood - its Denmark. You can always check the job listings at the web pages www.dongenergy.dk

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Seriously, its impossible to compare bit and pieces of a pay check and tax system. Its a lot of tradition and pros and cons and culture too.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

@OP i once heard a priest tell that he had been at many deathbeds talking to the dying persons and never once had the person said "I wish I had worked more" but quite often the opposite.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

I don't think you have to be a priest to not hear that.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

[quote JNieman]
It is pretty typical of smaller businesses.../quote]

Not just small companies have some draconian vacation/holiday pay policies.

In the 80's, when I was working for McDonnell Douglas, while everyone got paid vacation and sick days, they did not treat all their employees equally. For example, I was a so-called 'professional' and was salaried whereas my secretary/admin was not. We both got our paychecks every Friday, but I never missed a dollar when I was off on vacation or for a holiday. However, my secretary only got paid for the actual hours that she worked, so if she took a sick day, went on vacation or was off for a company holiday, like Christmas, Labor Day or NATO Day, she didn't get paid. However, at the end of the year, with her last paycheck, there would be a 'benefits' check which would cover all of those days for which she had not been paid during the year, including any vacation days that she hadn't yet taken. Granted, she didn't lose out on any money, but it did make it inconvenient for her at times.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

I miss the NATO and Flag Day holidays from MD. MD was(is) famous for having a 42-minute lunch break and a day-end at 4:12 pm. Of course, the hourly guys would line up at the timeclock at about 3:55 pm. But, they would get pay docked if they were even a minute late after 7:30 am, while us salaried guys could saunter in at any time winky smile

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Because of my 6 year plan (2 years in 3 areas) after graduation (5 year curriculum), I never was able to concern myself with vacation. My first after graduation in 1963 was working with structural/facilities in the aerospace industry and the vacation of 2 weeks could be spread out during the first year(depending on job load) and was able to take the 2 weeks in one piece. My second job was as a field engineer for a major steel company and was able to take a 2 week vacation to Europe. My third job for a utility in MSP because I wanted to attend evening law school and I could take 2 weeks, but my schedule for school dictated when I took it.

After all the restrictions, I took a job with a 50% raise in pay from a concrete products producer. Full benefits paid including 100% use of a company car (fuel included) and the requirement to take classes for my PE and get registered in 3 states, but I had 6 years of qualifying experience so that was a benefit and not a burden. My vacation was undetermined and very flexible, but there was a requirement to not take it in at one time in the winter and I was required to go an annual industry summer meeting wherever it was (Broadmore, Biltmore, Greenbrier or resort type places. I could take 2 weeks and drive to these with my wife and two kids at company expense if I visited one block plant per day (suggested by our auditors). I also had to attend and participate various association national committee meetings (ASCE, ACI, ASTM, TMS, etc.), so I did travel, not a real vacation, but beneficial and good experiences.

If you find a good position with some flexibility, vacations are not a concern.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: New job offer - vacation time

Any time I've changed employers, I've always said that my starting vacation time would have to be at least equal to what I already had.

If someone offered me none, or two weeks, I'd say 'Thanks, but no thanks'.

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