people skills
people skills
(OP)
I'm an engineer trying to go to the next to the next level in my career but am finding people skills is my biggest road block, any advice or recommendations on books to help?
I am a very competent technical employee and get excellent performance appraisals, but I'm afraid my relationship with my boss is preventing any further advancements. After about a year working with him I had asked for a letter or recommendation for promotion (typical in my company) and outlined the companies requirements for that position and how I've exceeded those requirements under him (I would still work under him with the promotion). In political nice words he said no not right now but agreed with me with how I've meet the requirements and offered no additional suggestions on what he'll need to see from me to feel comfortable before he issues a letter or recommendation, except for keep doing what I'm doing. 2 years later and a couple follow up conversations and no progress. on top of this I see him as a B-rate manager and bad leader...gives tasks with deadlines and very seldom gives private encouragement and never public encouragement and does anything towards team leadership or motivation.
I'm finding my failure of getting a letter of recommendation for promotion (even though I've been getting stellar performance appraisals that seem useless to me at this point) leaving me with a passive manipulative attitude with him and end up being short and if not difficult with him. I think I also have a critical view of authority and see him as not worthy of managing which probably makes it worse for me. Ultimately I know I need to be a joy to work with (especially to my boss) and am looking for advice or book suggestions on how to not have this reaction and be supportive in such a situation.
I am a very competent technical employee and get excellent performance appraisals, but I'm afraid my relationship with my boss is preventing any further advancements. After about a year working with him I had asked for a letter or recommendation for promotion (typical in my company) and outlined the companies requirements for that position and how I've exceeded those requirements under him (I would still work under him with the promotion). In political nice words he said no not right now but agreed with me with how I've meet the requirements and offered no additional suggestions on what he'll need to see from me to feel comfortable before he issues a letter or recommendation, except for keep doing what I'm doing. 2 years later and a couple follow up conversations and no progress. on top of this I see him as a B-rate manager and bad leader...gives tasks with deadlines and very seldom gives private encouragement and never public encouragement and does anything towards team leadership or motivation.
I'm finding my failure of getting a letter of recommendation for promotion (even though I've been getting stellar performance appraisals that seem useless to me at this point) leaving me with a passive manipulative attitude with him and end up being short and if not difficult with him. I think I also have a critical view of authority and see him as not worthy of managing which probably makes it worse for me. Ultimately I know I need to be a joy to work with (especially to my boss) and am looking for advice or book suggestions on how to not have this reaction and be supportive in such a situation.





RE: people skills
Then stop pestering your boss for a letter of recommendation.,
I never believe them, and I hardly ever give them.
( I think two in fifty years )
The other managers should already be aware of the glowing performance reviews, and of your public behavior. ... which is probably undermining you already, since your private contempt for your boss is inevitably reflected in your behavior toward him in subtle ways (to which managers are extraordinarily sensitive).
If you would prefer tasks without deadlines, you are in the wrong business. I don't know what business would give you, or anyone, open-ended tasks.
If he gives you _any_ encouragement, public or private, he's well over the 50th percentile of managers.
As you suspect, _you_ are the problem, and I hope also the solution.
Try a little private role play at home; how would you respond to supervising you?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: people skills
OK, "I think I also have a critical view of authority and see him as not worthy of managing which probably makes it worse for me."
This is a problem with YOU. Lousy managers abound; you would be a lousy manager for thinking so of a subordinate. A good manager makes do with what they have. You are unlikely to ever have an entire cadre of superior employees, so you need to learn to deal with it. Likewise, having a good manager is a rare thing as well. Most engineers suck at managing, because that's not where their interests lie; if it were, they would have majored in business. Even good managers suck sometimes.
By the above, I obviously would suck as a manager as well.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers
RE: people skills
Either way, it's time to get out of there.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: people skills
Take a step further back and determine if this is an issue just with you boss or with other people as well - if this is a trend in your business relationships than you might want to try a 'working with difficult people" seminar. I've sent a couple of engineers that type of class even though they were the ones perceived as 'difficult' and the results were positive and impressive as they picked up strategies that allowed them to manipulate (for lack of a better term)coworkers into a better working relationship
RE: people skills
And now, time for an alternative opinion. Having grown up with my father who was a Carnegie-crazy zombie who was always spouting the mantra "Never complain, criticize, or condemn. ACT enthusiastic, and you will BE enthusiastic! TODAY is the BEST day of my life, and TOMORROW is going to be EVEN BETTER!" OK, so there might be some merit in that. So I read those books. Some of it I thought could be very useful. A significant portion of it struck me as "how to be a backstabbing charlatan and manipulate other people to do what you want them to do." But there I go again with the "condemn" thing again. Pick and choose what ol' Dale has to say.
Having said my two cents' worth, all the advice above is very good. MacGyver makes a good point. The times that I have been "stuck" in an unchanging situation with no perceived avenue of advancement, my courses of actions were:
- Diligently gathered my data about salary levels, years experience, reviews, skill sets, etc., to show my value. Requested a meeting with boss (whom I thought was a chowderhead, but...so what?) and calmly & professionally stated my case for a promotion of some sort in order to advance my career. Else I would be forced to start looking for that advancement somewhere else. They advanced me to a R&D position which lasted a couple years, then laid me off when the economy tanked on the next economic cycle. I probably would have been laid off if I had not sought promotion anyway.
- No perceived route to advancement. Boss was non-degreed, insecure, topped-out in the org chart, and never going anywhere, ever. I left the company.
- Due to org chart changes, was assigned to work for SheWhoMustNotBeNamed who was as incompetent a management buffoon as I have ever suffered through. We all knew we were in deep soup when she publicly made the Idiotic Manager Quote of the Century "I will always support my Management, even when I know they are wrong." My last six months there I had my annual goals changed nine times in six months in Brownian motion fashion. Met all the goals, still got a "Does Not Meet Expectations" rating and would not discuss the data I had gathered showing otherwise. I quit at first opportunity.
- I asked about opportunities for advancement in a sucky economy like the one we are in right now. There's nothing available because the economy is in the dumpster. I waited until things picked up and the opportunities returned.
Sometimes it simply isn't fair and there's nothing you can do except either wait it out or move on.TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: people skills
Learn to stand-up and speak confidently in front of a group.
This is something that many engineering grad's never learn but which is a skill that will serve them well during their career. Even in this age of video-conferencing and social media, being able to make presentations and sell your ideas to others is a valuable tool to have in your arsenal of skills.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: people skills
No job is perfect and no boss is perfect. Get used to the real world. Do the best you can and that will take care of the future.
Your performance will become evident to others time goes on and you won't need any letters of recommendation.
As a supervisor of many through the years, I'll say expecting them to be "a joy to work with" never came up. Getting a job well done was what I expected.
RE: people skills
Maui
RE: people skills
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: people skills
Your pay check is all the encouragement you should need to do your job, and that should be enough unless the environment is very negative. Next time you're about to come to your boss with another problem (your lack of promotion) consider going in there and asking if he needs help with anything he's working on.
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
Check out the one minute manager by Ken Blanchard, also look around you area, and see if you have any chapters of the National Management Association NMA
They run a 12 part course as a service to their members , " Introduction to management" which is a solid guide to management techniques.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
To me it seem like that your manager might actually be holding you back because you are an asset to him - and if you moved to a new position he would loose you. This is quite possible and therefore you should consider your options. WOurk out if it really is by intention that he wont recommend you for promotion, wher do you want to go? and is your next position in a new company?
RE: people skills
The "act enthusiastic and you will be" bit sounds more like Tony Robbins, encouraging people to feel GREAT "get really excited about today!". There was a Tony Robbins addict who used to call on us as a technical salesman, and he irritated our receptionists so much that he soon lost any access to the facility, and had to get really excited about selling to other people. There are some psychological underpinnings to the manufactured happiness bit- we evolved ways to become satisfied with what we ended up with, rather than pining after what we didn't get. Regrettably, some of us are less successful at manufacturing meaningful happiness than others. People who say that when life hands you lemons, you should make lemonade- which of course presumes that life has ALSO handed you bags of sugar, or that everyone has the ability to manufacture sugar from thin air- and that's truly something that many of us utterly lack. My own advice is, I think, rather more practical: when life hands you sour grapes, make vinegar- you need no sugar for that, just the will to keep going.
To the OP: I don't discourage reading anything and sifting through it to find out what works for you. Regrettably, I don't see that approach as likely to be effective in your situation. After three years, your boss is unlikely to think differently of you irrespective of what books you read. If I re-read your post correctly, you met (in your mind) the criteria for promotion after a year, and two years later (three years in total) you're in the same position, despite excellent performance reviews? Your best option is to seek another position, either laterally in the same organization or, more likely, outside of it entirely. It would appear that unless your current boss goes away, you're going to be in the same place next year, and probably the year after. Three years in, even if this is your first job out of school, you're going to be viewed by others as a potentially valuable commodity IF you actually are what your performance reviews are telling you. Note however that talk is cheap- it's easy to give a glowing performance review than a frank and accurate one. Sometimes, the only way to have your own value realized is to go away from the people who, for whatever reason, fail to acknowledge your value in a meaningful way.
RE: people skills
If life gives you lemons... squeeze them in someone's eye.
Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: people skills
That is Funny!
RE: people skills
“Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater.” Albert Einstein
RE: people skills
I am a young engineer; I am on my fourth year and will be taking the PE this October, so take my advice with a grain of salt. It does sound like some of the older guys assume you are young, and have a perception that a younger generation expects raises and promotions without earning them. This may or may not be true, but we have to at the minimum assume OP is being honest with us. He is doing solid work and deserves a promotion. Something else is holding him back.
I believe that Carnegies book is something worth reading, and I am not the self help type. It may come across as "how to buy friends and manipulate people" as stated by Molten...but so what? And this may irk some of the older guys, but you need to look out for yourself. The company does not care about you, you need to do the things that will make YOU successful in life. Most often your needs and the companies needs are in line, you need to perform well technically and affect the bottom line. Adjusting your personality to others, in a way that benefits you, or encourages others to do/give you something you want, is not something that should be looked at negatively. If a car salesman treated you like crap, you would not buy from him, just as a simple example. His demeanor towards you is because he wants something from you. Everyday you need to act like you want something from people in your company, be helpful to others and pick up their slack when your work is slowing down. Also, show leadership qualities by helping train new/younger engineers. You need to do more that just request more responsibilities, you need to constantly look for opportunities to do more.
I am not a typical design engineer, I am an anomaly when compared to most. I am aggressive, and I have no problem speaking in front of people, nor do I have a problem letting people know how I truly feel. I have always been a very social person so this is natural to me, and I am able to convey myself for the most part without offending anyone. People genuinely like to work with me, and due to my aggressiveness I have been promoted once in my young career, and just recently in my annual review, I expressed I wanted more leadership opportunities to be able to grow into a management position. This was acknowledged by my superiors, and they agreed that I was on pace for a leadership role.
I will admit there are many other much smarter guys around me, they knock out a design more efficiently than I do. The difference is I have actively pushed for opportunities doing things other than design work. I'm on a committee for safety in design in our company, I recruit engineers at university job fairs, and I am an instructor on a first year training course. I don't want to design for the rest of my life, like I said there are those better than me at that. I am technically minded, and can communicate with others, so I am pushing to be involved in all aspects, and would love to do more of the business side because that is how you move up in this world.
I would recommend trying to spend more time with coworkers outside of work, and be the person who volunteers for that random task even when you're slammed. Most importantly be a joy to work with, make people WANT to come to you. You will essentially create your own "clientele" within your company if people enjoy working with you. These guys will come to you directly, not your boss, when they need something because you become their point of contact. Also, train your replacement, seriously this is a big one.
Sincerely,
young but ambitious engineer.
RE: people skills
I think that if you really dream about the big bucks you should consider that in most circumstances this means that you must stop working for others and start working for your self! Im a salary worker and quite happy as such, but i knew years ago that if i wanted a big income i would have to go the self employed way (starting a business, working as an independent contractor or whatever) and i simply didnt want to do that since i also have a family and dont consider my work to be all of my life and personality.
Best regards, Morten
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
Your situation sounds familiar, but as a proud SE likely only a handful of years your senior at most (age 30): Be very aware -- the path you are on may leave you scratching your head in a decade or two asking yourself if the 50+, or 60+ hour weeks was worth it. You may not see this now, but when spouse and kids come calling for your time, you'll likely have a different take on priorities. Pushing such a feeling aside may eventually leave you disgruntled, or divorced, and strapped to your desk (shiny Director/Principal/Partner corner office desk as it may be) as that is the only creative/social outlet you've ever known. I was recently surrounded by many senior staff fitting such descriptions; burned out myself, I made some major career adjustments but am fortunate to remain an SE in the consulting space. Happiest I've been since college.
I left a culture where this was expected - it was absolute poison for everyone involved. Eventually, you need to learn to say "no" to this, or, for a greater challenge, tactfully tell an internal/external client "it can wait until tomorrow/Monday" so that you and/or your future underlings can get home for the evening.
"Work To Live. Do not Live To Work." ....At the end of it all do you want to look down at all the rungs you've climbed? Or do you want to look around at the family you've created (if you chose to), the friends you've made, and the experiences you had because you carved out time for a life outside of work? If you want that, you've got to plan space for such in your life as well.
Cheers.
RE: people skills
Real-World Engineering (A guide to achieving career success)
By Lawrence J. Kamm
The book devotes 6 chapters in Part 2 to people problems.
Published by IEEE PRESS (Originally published by McGraw-Hill)
ISBN 0-87942-279-3
John
RE: people skills
@Morten: I concede the management side may not be what its cracked up to be. I should have been clearer, in that it most likely suits my specific skill set. I am technically competent and am still learning, but as stated in my post, others are better at it than I. I realize this, and have adjusted my career expectations accordingly. I always thought I wanted to do design all my life, but you don't know what you want until you are living it.
@FOXSE: Also very sound advice, as someone who already works the 60 hour weeks, I can imagine this getting old as soon as I have a family. I think I was just giving him examples of how to set himself apart from the rest, which seams like his goal.
@dArsonval: I searched that book on Amazon and they sell used versions for $4.00. 2 day shipping is included with my Amazon subscription so I will be reading that book beginning this week.
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
She was constantly passed up for promotion by people with less qualifications and less seniority. Perhaps could have sued their asses off, because this was not just in any way.
But the reason she was passed up time and time again was quite simple. She had an incredible work ethic, was extremely reliable, and her manager didn't want to let her go. So, for being a good worker, she got screwed. This probably happens all the time.
And to that effect, I've seen some of the worst individuals promoted. In engineering, poor engineers somehow make good managers in the minds of corporations. As we all know, this isn't really true, but maybe they can do less damage than actually participating in the engineering process.
Another rule of life is that there are no unicorns. A unicorn in this scenario is a company that will pay an employee a penny more than they have to. I've noticed this at about every position I've held. No employer is going to go out of their way to increase your pay. It's a game of poker. You have to find out if they really need or care about you by threatening to leave.
And that brings up my final point, the best way BY FAR to get a raise or promotion is to go somewhere else.
Think of your employment like a relationship. The company is the man and you are the woman. You need to be attractive to the company. The company then needs to woo you to come work for them. Then there's a short courtship, perhaps flowers from time to time, maybe a box of chocolates, and then when your stuck in the relationship, all the romance is gone. The company is walking around in it's underpants burping and you're stuck in the kitchen doing dirty dishes longing for Fabio.
RE: people skills
I thought that was very insightful of him and I think it perhaps also helped my wife better understand why I had decided to come to work for this company in the first place and why I had stayed with so long and worked as hard as I did. It was also great that all three of our sons were at the party as well, as it gave them some insight into what I had done all these years and how others saw what it is that I had contributed. Now all three are grown (they're 45, 45 and 37) with families and careers of their own, but I think it was good that they got to see who their 'old man' really was and what other people thought of him
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
I don't know. To be able to manage people well is a completely different skill from being a good engineer. One of the best managers I have had just had a high school degree and knew his job was just to provide the resources for everyone else to do their job. He was towards the end of his career and never danced or played games to try to get into upper management. An engineer that I worked with that was from Sweden sometimes would talk about how this mindset was more prevalent back in Sweden. I wish management wasn't treated as a better path so that it wouldn't draw in people that are just looking for better pay and perks instead of people who naturally like to and are good at managing people.
RE: people skills
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: people skills
Enchantment by Guy Kawasaki
People Skills by Robert Bolton
I also agree with the How to Win Friends and Influence People book suggestion.
Also, I sense you are frustrated. Lighten up a bit and know that this will not always be. Be thankful for where you are now. You may be being protected from something.
RE: people skills
Anyway, my main suggestion is to follow the golden rule (no not he who has the gold makes the rules - the other one).
Treating others as you would like to be treated is a pretty good starting point.
Can be difficult to apply in situations where the other person seems to be acting unreasonably - and I certainly often fall short - but it's one of my guiding principles.
(*Pretty sure he saw it as a compliment though in my head I second guessed him and thought it meant he felt my technical skills weren't that strong.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: people skills
1. I write a list of pros and cons for my job and career and verify my findings with others.
2. I very thoroughly discuss all items on the list with people I look up to in my field.(and my mom)
3. I make very sure I am not the problem.
4. I bring a list of important points with me to A meeting with my boss ( set up in advance off coarse), and go through them one by one.
5. I decide from the meeting if I need to start looking for a new job or not. or if I have a good opportunity in my current job and I myself need to change.
This usually clears things right up and puts me on the track to success.
I will not stay at a company that I feel I will not make advancements in if it is at no fault of mine.
RE: people skills
RE: people skills
John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: people skills
If not, I don't agree with all the people who are down on you. Saying things like hang in there, be patient and you will be rewarded, etc. That's probably not the case.
Corporations are selfish and greedy. It's a survival thing. They can't necessarily pay everybody what they are worth, and they certainly can't pay everyone what they think they're worth. And promotions can often be extremely irrational.
I left a company largely because of this. I was doing all the engineering for my division, plus I constantly had to help our sister branch due to their mismanagement. So because I had so much work, they promoted a different engineer, one who was almost (not completely, but almost) worthless into management. Now, I didn't necessarily want to go into management, but this is dysfunctional and insulting. Oh, and often I did this moron's work for him too, because he thought he was above it all.
And to add insult to injury, they were going to place me under an engineering manager that spent his entire career trying to not be an engineer. This guy climbed the corporate ladder like one of those guys on American Ninja! So imagine being at the top of your game as a design engineer and then having to answer to people that never even tried it and avoided it like the plague. NO THANKS.
At that point, it's just time to move on.
Another thing to consider is the law of bureaucracy. It says that there are two types of people in a bureaucracy. the first is someone devoted to the cause. These are the engineers, designers, technicians, and others that focus on the core purpose of the entity. The second type of person is someone devoted to the bureaucracy its self. These are managers, accountants, and other necessary evil that run the business.
The law of bureaucracy states that the people that fill category two will take over and command the entity. They will do this to the peril of the type one person. All my career, I have strongly been a type 1 person and have seen this law repeated over and over again. The type 1 person will be held under foot and will only be allowed to prosper so much that it does NOT threaten the positions of the type 2 personnel.
In fact, as you see corporations grow, you will see more emphasis on the type 2 people and the deemphasis on the type 1. It's rare to find a healthy corporate culture that avoids this and truly tries to reward individuals based on their value. This is one reason I prefer small corporations to work for. Less type 2 people mulling around with their coffee cups and newspapers.
When I left the aforementioned company, I took years of knowledge with me. Some of it will be lost forever. This was a company that even claimed to value it's talent and claimed they understood the cost of losing a valuable employee. I'm sure it will take hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace me and get that next individual up to the knowledge level that I was at.
But for some reason, most companies would rather do that then give the appropriate promotions, raises, etc that the employees may deserve.
So if you are in a dead-end job where they don't really appreciate you, either shut-up and live with it, or move on.
I've never regretted moving on.
And I might add, moving on is how you get experience. There's no better way to be well-rounded then to work in a variety of industries.
RE: people skills
Other than that, "clouser" sounds very smart and I am sure we can all learn from his experience in future(assuming he replies again).