Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
(OP)
Given a first-half-of-last-century-side-valve-flathead configuration. Add turbocharging and direct injection. Would it be theoretically possible to achieve sufficient compression while still maintaining enough transfer area for the air to enter and exit the cylinder?
Of course, the additional combustion chamber surface area and inefficient air flow would limit power, but has any thing like this ever been done? Any practical reason it couldn't be done?
jack vines
Of course, the additional combustion chamber surface area and inefficient air flow would limit power, but has any thing like this ever been done? Any practical reason it couldn't be done?
jack vines





RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/74381-flathead-d...
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
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RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7wAus1dqcM
http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas-engines/a-mon...
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Many British engines (and maybe others) from the 1930's up to through the 60's used this system, usually in naturally aspirated form in which case they would typically develop about 7 bar BMEP. One of the limitations of the concept was the flow restriction at the throat into the cylinder bore. The concept is fully disclosed in the Blackstone patent GB433838, and a couple of views from different engines is shown below; the first is a Gleniffer marine engine, and the second is a Russell-Newbery engine.
PJGD
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
What is the CR of these side valve diesels? I think some early diesels were as low as 10:1.
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Yes, a given in my initial post. The question was can it work at all?
What is considered the minimum CR for reliable compression ignition?
Very interesting, although most would consider that an OHV head with 180-degree included valve angle.
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
The design above is an interesting one that I've never seen before. Thanks for posting that!
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Merely random train of thought while examining yet another flathead design and wondering "What if?"
I build obsolete engines and am at present doing a '41 Studebaker Champion flathead. Naturally, the convoluted, restricted flow path and large chamber area means low efficiency; only 90 gross horsepower from 170" (2.8l). So, think about removing fuel from the intake passage, then air under pressure finds its way more easily, thus turbocharged with direct injection might be interesting. The large surface area of the combustion chamber would benefit from two spark plugs per cylinder and add knock detectors and computer control of ignition and fuel. Sort of like a stone axe with a titanium handle.
The last and greatest of automotive flatheads is the Packard nine-main bearing straight eight from 1954. Obviously, that bottom end can withstand more pressure than the intake flow can generate, so could it become a turbocharged diesel?
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
With a sidevalve, the intake and exhaust are conveniently located for twin turbos.
Which brings up another question. At what boost level does an intercooler become necessary?
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Beyond about 0.6 - 0.8 bar, it's worth using an intercooler if you have the space to put it.
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
je suis charlie
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
As far as supercharging the inline 8, didn't Packard to that for one of the concept cars that actually ran? Maybe the Panther Daytona?
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Correct, sir. The Packard engineers used a McCulloch variable speed supercharger blowing through the Carter WCFB 4-bbl carburetor. The Caribbean 8.7:1 compression 359" engine made 212 gross horsepower. This is the highest horsepower and compression ratio I've ever seen in print for a sidevalve passenger car engine. Since it was prone to pre-ignition, the estimated 250 horsepower supercharged engine would have had to have the carburetor jetted bog rich to drown the pings.
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
http://assets.blog.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads...
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Nice! The side-valve flat-head recip auto engine has seen its day, and I doubt it will ever be resurrected for new applications. However, I love the fact that there are a few hardy souls such as yourself having a good time pushing these old flat-head engines far beyond what their designers could have imagined.
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
jack vines"
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The Packard inclined valves are pretty interesting. Look like a possible advantage.
Page 8 here (but for 5 main bearing engine )-
http://www.packardinfo.com/xoops/html/downloads/pa...
I'd like to see one of those con rods. Real broad shouldered taper toward the big end, like a FORD FE Lemans or Norton short stroke.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/sites/default/files/im...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/Nort...
One of the production flathead/side valve engine's appeals was simplified machining, with the bulk of the machining done making a bunch of parallel holes in the block.
I'm not sure if the pretty highly developed Harley XR and XRTT side valve race engine stuck with vertical (to the gasket surfaces) valves.
Edit - As Packard pointed out, I should have said KR , not XR
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Assuming you mean the sainted KR racers; the most highly developed and most efficient flatheads ever. Because the KR cam lobes are parallel to the crank axis the valves had to be parallel to the bores. The auto flathead inlines had lobes perpendicular to the bores, so it is easier to incline the valve head a few degrees toward the bore.
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
2 strokes, in essence, are side valve engines.
Even in a poppet-valve flathead, you could seal the combustion chamber from the intake/exhaust chambers and then un-shield them as the piston moves. The piston and head would form a prechamber, and this charge would compress and ignite the rest of the fuel/air charge as it moves.
The benefits to doing that are unimaginable, as in, I have no idea why you would do it exactly like that lol.
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Interesting you suggest what had crossed my mind early in the virtual design, but I couldn't see any way to seal off the valve and transfer area before it bled off too much volume during compression. If turbocharged, it's possible there could be sufficient density in the piston chamber. However, as compression ignition occurs, what happens as the piston descends and the valve and transfer area is opened? The expansion goes there and less is available to push the piston down?
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
A sleeve valve? :)
je suis charlie
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
Detroit diesel basically built what we're discussing.. And it is one of the most beloved engines that there has been
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
The only part of those Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engines that I recall anyone having a "love" for were the Roots scavenge blowers that drag racers adopted to supercharge their race engines.
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
There are myriad DD fans still out there. One quote which sums up their attitude: "When our sun is cold and dead, as is the Earth revolving around it, the only thing still living is that Detroit Diesel at its core driving the turntable."
jack vines
RE: Side valve flathead diesel - theoretically possible ?
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin