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Value of Young Engineer
10

Value of Young Engineer

Value of Young Engineer

(OP)
All,

Every year I get glowing reviews from my project managers telling me that I am exceeding expectations and ahead of the pack in regards to my peers, however I do not feel that this is being adequately portrayed to my boss whom I have never worked with directly. I am basing this on the fact that I have only received standard raises and bonuses as well as recognition. I believe this is largely due to the fact that we are a large company and for the most part, salary and responsibilities correlate with years of experience until you become a seasoned project manager and can bring in work and profit. My questions is, is this standard procedure for engineering firms or should I begin looking for employment elsewhere, where outstanding performance is valued more from younger engineers?

Background: I am a structural engineer with four years of experience working at a large structural engineering firm in the US. I will be sitting for the PE exam this April. I have aspirations to be a great engineer and business man and would not be opposed to venturing out on my own one day.

Thank you for any tips or advice you can offer.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

After you take and pass the PE exam you should tell your boss that you are a PE. Do not expect a bonus/raise; do not even ask for one. If they appreciate you, they will give you what they see fit.

If you do not receive a bonus/raise, you should immediately start looking for a new job. Make sure you are selling yourself as a PE.
If you do get a bonus/raise, then you should decide if it is enough. If it is not, then ask for more or go somewhere new.

As far as venturing out on your own - I did not feel ready the first day I was a PE.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

(OP)
Thanks Swiver. I agree, I will not be ready to venture out on my own after passing the PE. I feel that I would need around 8 of experience before even considering it.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Ask your boss if he would like you to send him the comments you get from those you interface with, just to help him when evaluation time comes. This would clue him in that you care. He can say yes or no. I suspect he is already aware, and he might tell you so, in which case he's telling you he expects above average performance. You can also ask him what advice he might have to help you really stand out. Tell him your desire is to produce excellent results and you would welcome any advice on how to do so.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

FootNMouth: if you follow swiver's advice, you will be leaving your firm, period.

When communicating with people, I find words to be most effective. If you do not use your words, there is a high likelihood that whatever you're trying to communicate will not be noticed, or will be totally misinterpreted. People are very poor at reading each others' minds. Do not expect others, especially bosses- to notice, much less acknowledge, much less compensate you for, the effort and energy you put into your career. The people making the decisions of what to pay you, will not pay you anything more than a basic level unless they know that you a) care to be paid properly and b) know that you are not being paid properly.

There are people that are so in love with their work that they don't care whether or not they are paid properly. They work uncompensated overtime in large quantity with no expectation of matching compensation, and do all sorts of things that people with a modicum of self respect are not willing to do for a for-profit enterprise. Perhaps your bosses hope you are one of them?

Not all employers are socially savvy people. They're not sitting around worrying about whether or not you feel fulfilled and appreciated- they have bigger fish to fry. If you are given raises and don't make any noise about feeling under-compensated, they will assume you are totally satisfied. If you don't value your own services enough to complain (i.e. using words) about poor compensation, they will take your services at a bargain price.

Once you have your PE, you have significant additional negotiating power. Use it. Even employers who are too dumb or preoccupied to notice your change in status and the expectations that come with it, are often smart enough to realize that finding another young engineer and training them for four years is much more expensive to the firm than paying you what you're actually worth in your fifth year. But unless you give them the opportunity, they will not do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

You want to be treated as essential, and respected as an individual human being? You are not guaranteed to find that in a smaller firm, but you are virtually guaranteed NOT to find it in a larger one. If you do, it's an anomaly, which the "human resources" people are likely to screw up for you eventually. Working in smaller firms is not for everyone, but it's the only place that some of us can have a satisfying career.

As to going out on your own- plan on another 5 years of employment before taking that step. Best of luck.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

It may be easier to have a conversation about compensation if it's not a thinly veiled threat. If you go into a discussion with your superior saying "I want more money or I'm gonna leave." They may take offense. That doesn't help advancement later.

You could try talking to a superior to discuss how expanding your qualifications (e.g. getting a PE, other skills) will impact advancement and compensation. This sort of conversation will indicate that you want more but are willing to change/do more to get it.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

A major asset for any engineer who wants to be successful is communications skills, which are comprised of Talking and LISTENING. You need to have a TALK with your manager to voice your concerns:
> what are the job performance criteria that determine the pay raises
> what can be done to improve the raises?
> why did the "glowing reviews" not translate into raises?
> are there perceived deficits that mitigated or contradicted the "glowing reviews"?

Then, LISTEN closely to what your manager says and consider any subtext or unspoken messages.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Value of Young Engineer

PE, no PE, young, experienced, whatever; at the end of the day and after all the dust settles, your work is worth what the market will prevail for the conditions you are willing to work under. Whatever your company's policies are have no real regard to what your actual value is other than than their pay guidelines are probably *roughly* in line with their peers.

If you really want to know what your "worth" than you should dip your toes into the job market and see what kind of job offers you can get from other employers. Job hunting for the sake of curiosity is a pain in the butt, but most appraisals of valuable things take a little foot work. You might find a better job that also pays more, too. I have found that I could probably squeeze an extra 5 to possibly 10 percent higher pay by jumping ship. It appears to me, however, that it all evens out in the end. You might get a quick bump in pay, but might take longer to increase your salary from that starting point at the new company.

If you are doing a great job and getting paid fairly for it, then a PE wouldn't necessarily mean a big pay raise. The idea that you suddenly are worth 10K to 15K more per year once you get the PE is sort of ridiculous. It's not like you are suddenly able to work without supervision and peer review. Anything over a 5K bump would generally be pretty good for getting the PE.

If yo want to start your own firm eventually, look for a job that rounds you out the most rather than pays the most.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

You have just discovered that there is a difference between being appreciated and being valued. Took me about 4 years also.

You're an engineer, gather salary data for similar positions / experience levels, and take a good look at it. Then figure out the best way to approach your boss. You do not want to twist their arm into a raise. A very effective method is to present the data and ask if they think you are fairly compensated based on your quality of work. This forces them to consider their appreciation of your work in terms of your value. If it turns out you're not really even appreciated all that much, then that narrows down your options and helps you focus on your next steps.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Quote (FootNMouth)

I believe this is largely due to the fact that we are a large company and for the most part, salary and responsibilities correlate with years of experience until you become a seasoned project manager and can bring in work and profit.

I think the key is "large company". Generally, the larger the company is, the more raises and advancement are standardized based on experience rather than a meritocracy. How can your boss appreciate your extra effort when you say you have never worked with him directly? The smaller the sandbox in which you reside, the larger the impact that you have on the company (this can be positive or negative impact). Stick it out, get your P.E., then you can start looking at what else is out there if your job is not fulfilling your goals in terms of wages and/or level of responsibility.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Large companies may base their pay on some kind of salary survey such as 'Radford' then aim to keep employees at or below something like 50th percentile for each job band. (After all if you're above average you'd surely get promoted.)

i.e. when first hired/promoted you're put in a bit below 50th percentile, you then may get one or 2 OK raises until you hit 50%ile then you can only expect around inflation raises.

So the key to above inflation raise at such an employer may be to get into the next pay band/job description e.g. Engineer 2 instead of Engineer 1...

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Value of Young Engineer

To clarify a few points:

1) Yes, you should choose your words carefully, so that you don't come across as a whiny entitled kid- that's not likely to get you what you want. It doesn't hurt to express gratitude for what you've been given so far- training and experience and trust, if not good compensation. You should also listen carefully to what is said in reply. That said, don't be too careful: be clear, and ask for your manager to clarify if they're not clear, rather than trying to read through what is actually said to some kind of underlying subtext. Next to non-verbal communication cues, subtext/implication is the next least effective way to communicate. Being clear generally takes several meetings with reasonable time in between to allow the management to react. With each meaning, you can feel free to be increasingly clear- and if you're not getting results internally, you should be actively looking externally.

2) Your PE doesn't make you more valuable- but your PE does make you more marketable to other firms. Your internal value doesn't go up much, but your EXTERNAL value increases significantly- that is, assuming you're a structural engineer as your profile says- for chemicals, run of the mill mech and electricals etc. like me, our licenses mean next to nothing unless we're educated out of country, so getting one means little in compensation terms. Compensation has to correlate with external value- what the market will pay you. If they were paying you MORE than you were worth when you weren't worth much in external market terms, perhaps this is time for them to get payback from you for their sunk effort and cost in training you. If not, they're expecting a bargain from you.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

2
I vote for playing the long game. Over the arc of your career, all that matters financially is acquiring some form of ownership. That can be owning your own company or sharing an existing company with a bunch of partners. Focus on making this happen by being a successful project manager and business developer. The rest is just noise in my opinion.

Design capability alone, even at the highest levels, has relatively little market value. That's partly why folks get MBA's.

The quickest route to prosperity, if you're truly a rockstar, will be striking out on your own. By definition, however, most of us are not rockstars. In that case, a lower risk value proposition is to target shared ownership at an existing firm where ownership seems achievable and you have a high probability of being provided with the resource that will facilitate your success. Only you can tell if your current company fits the bill.

It sounds as though you are well valued, if not well compensated, where you're at. Take care not to underestimate that. The confidence of those around you will lubricate your meteoric rise to the top. And, despite your talent and best efforts, it's not a given that will be the case everywhere.

If you need a raise, I'd recommend phrasing it like this: "This is a great organization and I'd like to be more valuable to it. How can I make that happen?". Most other permutations of this conversation will amount to putting the cart before the horse. At the risk of being harsh, if your valuable contributions are going unnoticed, consider reassessing the value of your contributions.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

I have to disagree with moltenmetal (sorry, but I think this is the first time ever), regarding the PE not making you more valuable. I agree with the statement for many types of engineers at most large private companies...however, as a structural engineer, having your PE license will have an immediate impact on your internal value to your company. No longer are you tied down to performing all of your work under the direct responsibility of another engineer (with a PE). You will be capable of performing your own work and stamping your own designs. Now obviously, with just 4 years experience, you won't be turned loose completely, but you should expect to start receiving smaller independent assignments and if your management chain is interested in seeing you grow as an engineer, they will give you more responsibility...still with some checks on your work.

As to your original question, as a fairly recent graduate, 4 years experience may seem like a lot to you...but to your management, you are barely out of the learning how to do your job phase. Reality is, for the first 1-3 years, you are costing the company more money than they are making off your work. Exceeding expectations and ahead of the pack with respect to recent graduates is very different than exceeding expectations and ahead of the pack with respect to 20+ years experience. Concentrate on passing your PE exam and keep up the good work. With a PE license as a structural engineer, and a little more experience, I would expect you should start seeing promotions up through the engineering levels and a little better raises over the next 8 years or so. Ask your direct boss during your next visit or performance review what you can do to take on more responsibility and earn bigger raises. As others have said, people can't read your mind. If after all of that you're still not happy with your compensation and they won't increase accordingly or tell you how you can increase your compensation, then start looking for another job. You certainly could look for another job and try to use an offer from another company as leverage to get a raise...but that puts you on a slippery slope that could have some unintended consequences...

RE: Value of Young Engineer

2
jpankask,

I have to disagree that engineers typically cost more money than they make a company in the first 1 to 3 years after graduation. My engineers are contributing within 6 months or less. They may not be rain makers, but they sure are handling extra work that could not be handled without them. Otherwise they wouldn't have been hired. These are engineers hired straight out of school. If the company is not utilizing profitable aspects of an employee alongside long term training, they are not managing their employees very well at all.





RE: Value of Young Engineer

I've never agreed with the "cost more in the first few years" thing, either. Sure, you're spending money training them... but they're also handling lower-level tasks that you don't want high-paid experienced engineers wasting time with. Not to mention a simple logical fact... most young engineers don't stay with a job for more than a couple of years, and if that's the case, companies would see the bottom line continually getting hammered and stop hiring them (don't underestimate the short-sighted stupidity of a bean counter).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Value of Young Engineer

My statement was obviously a big generalization, and I generally shy away from making such generalities. It's obviously not applicable to every single engineer in every single company. But I do believe and have experienced this. I'm not saying that new engineers do not contribute to the company or the bottom line, nor am I saying that they don't do good work or useful work. I am saying that if you factor in a new-hire's salary plus the cost of his/her benefits (which "generally" amounts to 50%-75% of salary, i.e. insurance, social security, vacation, retirement), the amount of time they spend being trained after being hired, the amount of time they spend researching their projects to know how/what to do and the amount of senior engineers time they spend asking questions/mentoring...for the first year (most new engineers) and maybe 2 or 3 years (for a few engineers, or highly specialized engineers), they aren't really making the company much money. For some new engineers, this might only be 6 months, but every new engineer has a timeframe on the new job where they go through this process. Hopefully (for the company), this was taken care of during an internship/coop time and thus they can be more productive quicker. This is difficult to quantify and prove, and somewhat covered up by the fact that the "costs" associated are hidden/sunk costs that the company would be paying anyway, thus why you don't see "the bottom line getting hammered and a stoppage of hiring new engineers." New engineers are very valuable to the continued growth of a company and those who do stay with the company through this process usually become productive engineers.

I have been on both sides of this situation (new engineer and, later, supervisor of new engineers). My point was just to point out to the OP that while he may feel he's ahead of the pack, his direct boss may not see it exactly the same way.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Potential risk is also that some grad Engineers that get productive quickly it's because they are doing lower level tasks, without learning much about higher level tasks.

In these cases those individuals may tend to plateau.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Certainly, from a purely mechanistic approach to running a business, getting experienced new hires would seem to be, on the surface, the best thing. But, I would caution that this is akin having an affair with a married person, then marrying that person, and expecting a long marriage. It COULD happen that way, but leopards don't often change their spots, so once flighty is typically always flighty.

Your experienced new hires have already shown little compunction against jumping from one company for another, so why would you expect differently in the future, particularly if they now have to do work whose complexity that might be more appropriate for fresh college grads? I would then argue that the cost of those turnovers will be at least has much as it cost to train a new grad, if not more, since the work abandoned by the experienced engineer is often re-done by whoever takes their place, because not everything was clearly documented, NIH, etc.

TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

RE: Value of Young Engineer

I would argue that you are discussing something that is not a phenomenon unique to the engineering field. In past decades people have spent decades or perhaps their whole lives at a single employer, earning a pension.

It isn't people who show companies that they won't stick around, it's that companies have shown people that they regard them as disposable and without value. New engineers jumping jobs is as much a function of the way employers treat people, as it is a function of the way people treat their employers.

Why would I want to work for a company that is not invested in my own development?

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Second what allgoodnamestaken said. Just because someone left a company quickly doesn't mean they're disloyal or always looking for the better offer (not that that's even a bad thing, people should always look out for themselves and their family first). Some are, but many aren't. In jumping from company to company they often are also giving up vesting and other benefits that they would get if they had just stayed put. Not to mention the damaged relationships and reputation. So I would hesitate to just assume it's restlessness or disloyalty driving it. Sometimes the fit's not right, sometimes they didn't get to work on what they thought or were told they'd get to. Sometimes they just work for horrible employers who see them as commodities rather than long-term investments and treat them accordingly. My wife works for a place like that right now. She's very much a 'sit tight' person. Loves her routines and rarely gets bored. But she's had her eye out for better opportunities pretty much since a couple months after starting because the company treats their employees terribly and may even be pushing into stuff that could get them in big trouble with the Department of Labor. I know at least one current employees and one former employee have contacted the DOL on them already. I think those of us who are fortunate enough to work for good (or even just not horrible) employers underestimate the prevalence of awful employers. They're everywhere. And you don't necessarily know until you've started. For fresh grads with no other frame of reference it may even take longer.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

3
We make money from day one on our co-op engineering students, not just our fresh grad new hires! If you're not managing to do that, you're doing it wrong, or you're in the wrong business. And they do a hell of a lot more than merely routine stuff, though there is an opportunity for learning to new staff in tasks that mature staff find to be tedious- that's a big help for both young and mature engineers if it's managed correctly.

As to the employer optimization that seems to be going on: employers are most interested in people who are between 5 and 15 years into their careers, seeing that as an optimal productivity per unit salary window. Why would you train someone if you can outsource that training cost on another business?

When your business model is to issue proposals and then hire 80% of the people necessary to do the work immediately after winning it, fresh grads are tough to use to a significant extent. That's a bottom-feeder business model where the "business" cranking out the proposals is really just a general contractor of a sort, subcontracting the real work to a bunch of independent contractors who pretend to be employees for a time. Regrettably, that describes many EPCs and similar engineering consulting firms out there- they are shell corporations with a small core of sometimes world-class staff, and an army of temporary cubicle-stuffers who actually do the work for the most part. I'm not blaming them- they appear to behave this way as a result of what their industry has become as a result of competition.

When these folks can't find experienced people willing to do temporary, insecure assignments for little to nothing more than salary, they scream "shortage". Regrettably, government listens too often to the people who try to treat professionals as "just in time" goods that can be purchased from stock when needed. Even more regrettably, these types of businesses are responsible for breaking the transition between graduation and employment in our profession. What really depresses me is that our learned societies and licensure bodies and advocacy groups aren't seizing on this issue and reinforcing the fact that it is a responsibility of this generation of professionals to train the next- it's not just something that's good to do for business reasons when it's convenient.

RE: Value of Young Engineer

Here is how raises work in most companies: At the beginning of the year your boss is given a department budget for salaries that factor in raises. How much he/she gets for raises will depend on how the company is doing, so your boss only has a finite amount of raise money to go around. The result is that if your boss wants to give you an extra percent, he's going to have to take that 1% away from someone else. So fair or not, you can think of it as you are competing against the others in your department for a raise. Even if you are a star performer, your boss may value another in your department more and give them the bigger raise rather than you. As someone else mentioned, large comapnies typically have systems in place that are used to determine your raise, and as a result, the bulk of employees get an average of 2.5%, the better employees get 3%, and the true stars may get as high as 3.5%. My last employer used a formula to determine your raise. In your perfromance review there were a series of key attributes that you were judged on and ranked 1 through 4, with 1 being the best. Your total score was tallied up, and then there was a chart that listed the percentage raise based on your score. To make it even harder to get a big raise, if you wanted to give an employee 1's across the board, you had to visit the VP of HR and justify your case.

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