Where does Civil scope end?
Where does Civil scope end?
(OP)
Hi All,
We are looking for any feedback or references that helps delineate or define the limits of civil 'scope' for site improvements as they interface with a building. Here are 2 examples:
1. For a sidewalk either connecting to a building entrance or a perimeter walk, we will typically reference compaction requirements and subgrade prep, specify concrete handling and placement, and detail the grades. However, there may be conflicts as you approach the foundation zone with respect to backfill material and compaction effort; and,
2. Utilities: We have a project that involves a grease interceptor located in a parking lot outside the building. We typically will coordinate the location of the GI with the M/E/P and provide conveyance downstream from the GI. The M/E/P typically provides the GI plan info including piping upstream (from the building to the GI).
Lastly, we provide construction observation for the scope of work on OUR plans. Recently, we have a situation where the plumber installed schedule 40 (M/E/P plans) to the GI and then the site excavator transitioned out of the GI with SDR 35 (our plans). We alerted both the general contractor and the local water district (out of courtesy) that SDR 35 is preferred underground (site). The water district claims we (civil) should have stopped the work and required the contractor to remove the sch 40 piping and replace it with sdr 35 since it was 'site' piping. We responded that we have no authority over other discipline's plans, only our own. What a poop storm that started!
The question about limits of professional scope has since arisen and I am interested in hearing other's opinions or references on how to better define where the hand-off between civil and M/E/P or civil and architect should occur. Thanks.
We are looking for any feedback or references that helps delineate or define the limits of civil 'scope' for site improvements as they interface with a building. Here are 2 examples:
1. For a sidewalk either connecting to a building entrance or a perimeter walk, we will typically reference compaction requirements and subgrade prep, specify concrete handling and placement, and detail the grades. However, there may be conflicts as you approach the foundation zone with respect to backfill material and compaction effort; and,
2. Utilities: We have a project that involves a grease interceptor located in a parking lot outside the building. We typically will coordinate the location of the GI with the M/E/P and provide conveyance downstream from the GI. The M/E/P typically provides the GI plan info including piping upstream (from the building to the GI).
Lastly, we provide construction observation for the scope of work on OUR plans. Recently, we have a situation where the plumber installed schedule 40 (M/E/P plans) to the GI and then the site excavator transitioned out of the GI with SDR 35 (our plans). We alerted both the general contractor and the local water district (out of courtesy) that SDR 35 is preferred underground (site). The water district claims we (civil) should have stopped the work and required the contractor to remove the sch 40 piping and replace it with sdr 35 since it was 'site' piping. We responded that we have no authority over other discipline's plans, only our own. What a poop storm that started!
The question about limits of professional scope has since arisen and I am interested in hearing other's opinions or references on how to better define where the hand-off between civil and M/E/P or civil and architect should occur. Thanks.





RE: Where does Civil scope end?
suggest that the architect / structural provide a line that indicates the outside of the building foundation / exterior walls and then offset two feet outside of that line and that is the match line. Any utilities extending through the structural backfill should be trenched through the completed backfill and then installed so there should not be any conflict with the foundation work.
you should be "alerting" the architect of these things that go wrong on site or other coordination items, let him run interference since he is supposedly in charge of the project...
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
There is no cookbook method where the work is performed using the same scope and responsibilities on every project. Every project tends to be unique.
Suggest that you institute regular project meetings.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
The scope of work is an important document and is included in the Contract. Engineers are generally advised to design to the scope of work.
Another aspect of an engineer's work is the expertise of the engineer. Some engineers are capable of working in all areas of civil engineering. Others are limited to practicing in specialized disciplines.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
Your response was what I was looking for. We all know that project management and communication is important but I was specifically looking for practices or references on how others convey where 'mine ends and yours begins'. Thanks to all taking the time to reply.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
Water and sewer service stop 5' from the foundation walls, and the plumber takes it from there into the building.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
Let us better understand what we are dealing with.
The initial question is by whom is the civil retained: owner, architect, CM, design/builder or the civil.
Whether the project is residential or commercial, they all begin with a site.
The each site has boundaries (some include easements) and interconnections (utilites or not), curbs, driveways, gutters & sidewalks,. It may or may not have a soils report but the civil must know the limits of the geology, just as the structural must too.
The civil works and communicates with the architects (and landscape architect (if there is one) site plan to provide the interconnections and elevations of utility and waste connections, sets elevations and grades for site drainage and as previously noted, specifies site clearing, grading and backfill requirements based on the soils report and site plan.
If his plans require construction coordination then he is responsible for identifying any conflicts between M/P/E subs and reporting them to the architect or Design/build lead.
At issue is not "passing the buck" but predetermining your scope of services and what is customary for similar projects in your area.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
I find that architects generally expect the structural discipline to handle bollards, lamp post supports, equipment pads, and all manner of other hardscape. Early on in a project, I'll try to have the scope conversation with the architect and the civil engineer. I've found the civil guys to be quite helpful so long as they have adequate time to react. From what I've seen, the biggest issue is that the architect will assume certain things to be structural scope and, as a result, they won't even show these elements to the civil consultant until a few days before tender.
I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
For Site/civil we use to stop the fire supply 5 feet outside the building and the fire utility contractor would take his piping (from the MEP drawings) underground and make the connection at the 5 ft point. New code required that any underground piping be done be a contractor certified to do that type of work, which most of the fire supply contractors weren't certified to do. This meant that on our civil plans, we had to show the fire supply going into the building and coming up through the foundation to be connected. This caused some issues with various civils who do work for this client. After a little bit of push back, we eventually just started adding this to our scope of work.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
Lets assume the construction is run by a GC: By own, I mean "responsible for". Where I practice, trenching, shoring, bracing, etc., belongs to whoever is digging the trench, the GC. The geotech or civil does not typically become involved in trench safety design - in my region. That is considered more of a means and methods issue for the contractor. Responsibility for obtaining permits would depend on how the contract is written. If the permit requires a licensed plumber or electrician, than the GC or respective trade normally gets the permit. Who provides barricades for traffic control is negotiable - depends on the contract. It would normally be in the GC's court. Backfill, finish surface and inspections are usually the GC's responsibility as well.
If there are specific design items related to geotech/civil for the utilities, than those would be incorporated into the civil plans but would normally be the responsibility of the GC to install correctly.
I think the situation that the OP has can seem a little more cloudy since his firm is providing construction observation. As a geotech firm, we provide materials testing and it is not uncommon for the finger to get pointed at us for all kinds of accountability that is not part of our scope. I think the best thing EG can do is get really familiar with the contract scope and to don't go past it even as a favor. No good deed goes unpunished in this industry.
RE: Where does Civil scope end?
Entering into the world of CM, CM/Multiple Prime, etc. "responsible for" becomes clouded by attempts to shift "responsible for's" to subs without benefit of a general superintendent.
Projects such as these require clear CD's & Specs that "spell out" who is responsible for what. Many of the newer CM's lack methods and means on site experience, as do many A & E's today.
50 years ago and now are worlds apart.